Forward Tee Challenge

[ChiefMikeOfficer]

2 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

It’s not the the norm. The average is a 7i which means some guys hit a shorter iron and some a longer iron. It’s a perception that everyone is hitting short clubs into every green or mid irons into par 5s because it’s what is shown on tv. Just like it’s a perception that pros make every 8-10’ putt because you see so many made on tv.

You can get a dose of Tour reality by watching the pre-cut, non-televised coverage (like PGA Tour Live / now ESPN+) -- you see a lot of average-looking (and even bad) shots on streaming coverage, and it kinda makes me feel better about my own game. What you don't see often, though, is blowup rounds -- alongside all of those bad shots is recovery and a controlled score. 

[vandyland]

7 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

I find it interesting that you don’t want to see pros hit short clubs into greens while at the same time you ply golf to have wedges into greens on par 4s and reach par 5s in 2

I am a crappy golfer with two kids under 4 and a job that has nothing to do with golf. They are the best golfers in the world competing for money and spending their entire life honing that craft. 

[ChiefMikeOfficer]

12 minutes ago, vandyland said:

I am a crappy golfer with two kids under 4 and a job that has nothing to do with golf. 

 

[RickyBobby_PR]

17 minutes ago, ChiefMikeOfficer said:

You can get a dose of Tour reality by watching the pre-cut, non-televised coverage (like PGA Tour Live / now ESPN+) -- you see a lot of average-looking (and even bad) shots on streaming coverage, and it kinda makes me feel better about my own game. What you don't see often, though, is blowup rounds -- alongside all of those bad shots is recovery and a controlled score. 

Or going to a tourney in person and watching a bunch of different groups. You will see a lot more average golf shots and ball not going as far.

What many also ignore is that the most tournament courses are setup to play firm and fast for the week and there are times where there is 20+ yards of rollout. 
 

Also many forget that professional golf is a form of entertainment and the tour is going to put on a show to draw in crowds and tv viewership. If they wanted longer clubs hit into greens they could do that thru course setup without making any distance changes,. It that would hurt the product.

16 minutes ago, vandyland said:

I am a crappy golfer with two kids under 4 and a job that has nothing to do with golf. They are the best golfers in the world competing for money and spending their entire life honing that craft. 

See above for most of the answer but penalizing short hitters to have longer hitters have 1-2 extra clubs into a green is silly. The guys that are longer off the tee have put in the work to improve their strengths and power and maximize that via optimizing launch conditions and they are still going to have the advantage over the shorter hitters and even more so if courses were 8000 yards. In reality most of those shorter hitters would be off the tour in a year or two and you would have a smaller field and only the top golfers playing. Also if distance off the tee guaranteed better scores then more of the top 10 to top 25 swing speeds on tour would be winning but the number of wins on tour by that group are very few. Cam Champ is the fastest on tour and he has 3 pga tour wins and 1 korn ferry wins in his 6 years as a pro. 

[Prodigal Duffer]

I've played the forward tees a couple of times this year when playing with my 10 year old. We are playing this weekend, and I am strongly considering doing it again. My reasoning is that it will help speed our pace of play if we play from the same tees. It's also been fun in that I drove the green on a short par 5 and had lots of scoring chances. I found it really fun. What I didn't like about it was that it more or less guaranteed that I hit nothing but woods and wedges. As for scores, I did way better than I had been at my standard tees, shooting a 41 and a 42 (each with a three putt and at least one penalty stroke). These days, I'm hitting the ball a lot better (shot a 41 from standard tees last weekend), so I'll be interested to see if I can shoot around even par from the fronts.

Ultimately, golf is stupid and my scores mean nothing. So, might as well have some fun out there.

[vandyland]

1 hour ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

See above for most of the answer but penalizing short hitters to have longer hitters have 1-2 extra clubs into a green is silly. The guys that are longer off the tee have put in the work to improve their strengths and power and maximize that via optimizing launch conditions and they are still going to have the advantage over the shorter hitters and even more so if courses were 8000 yards.

This is really off topic but I am also pro-rollback/MLR ball. I don't personally want 8,000 yd courses. A roll back that reduced distance by a % would still give long hitters and advantage but would bring people back a little bit and make courses not have to keep adding tee boxes or growing the rough up like crazy or getting green speeds up to 14. I am not a GCA expert or anything like that. Just seems like the ball goes too far but that is another conversation as well. 

I was just making the point that via the Tee it Forward math, that is where tour players should be playing from. The math is absurd. 

[RickyBobby_PR]

24 minutes ago, vandyland said:

This is really off topic but I am also pro-rollback/MLR ball. I don't personally want 8,000 yd courses. A roll back that reduced distance by a % would still give long hitters and advantage but would bring people back a little bit and make courses not have to keep adding tee boxes or growing the rough up like crazy or getting green speeds up to 14. I am not a GCA expert or anything like that. Just seems like the ball goes too far but that is another conversation as well. 

I was just making the point that via the Tee it Forward math, that is where tour players should be playing from. The math is absurd. 

The rollback is nothing more than a way for the RBs to control the score and for them to be able to keep a handful of courses in their specific rotations and in the case of the usga for big money designers and those who want to own a course that will host an event or especially a major to get what they want.

It doesn’t benefit the game and isn’t based on any objective measurement.

The RBs are using data across pga tour events to make a case for a perceived distance problem that in their minds affects their favorite open courses. At the end of the day score is what determines the winner. It doesn’t change at 6000 or 8000 yards. They just don’t want pros to potentially score low on certain courses.
 

As mentioned in my previous comment if the PGA tour wanted holes to play longer they can with simple things like not cutting the fairways low, watering them more and let the rough grow. At the end of the day the pga tour is in the business of entertaining the fans. Golf including pro golf is in a good spot. The recent tv contract indicates that as well. If it wasn’t the money invested in the tour events and tv deals wouldn’t keep increasing 

Not to mention the proposed MLR ball design isn’t going to have the current pros hitting 8i into greens start hitting 4/5/6 irons. At most it makes the 8i not a 7i. 

[vandyland]

16 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

At the end of the day score is what determines the winner.

Got it. You've convinced me. Now I am mad that they have the audacity to limit the COR on a driver. The PGA tour should allow players to openly take steroids. Let's get those greens books back in their hands. Why don't these governing bodies realize it is just the final score that matters?

 

[RickyBobby_PR]

1 hour ago, vandyland said:

Got it. You've convinced me. Now I am mad that they have the audacity to limit the COR on a driver. The PGA tour should allow players to openly take steroids. Let's get those greens books back in their hands. Why don't these governing bodies realize it is just the final score that matters?

 

Not saying they should just open things up, and there’s nobody I know or have seen post say that they shouldn’t have limits. The current specifications are fine and no need to roll back or open up.

Distance by the longest players haven’t changed with the current equipment, average distance has gone up because there are more people who hit the ball 300 yards off the tee.

The current equipment both clubs and balls are fine where they are. 

[Dweed]

Yes, I have and do maybe 3 or 4 times a year. It gives me a different perspective of the course and I get to use clubs I usually don't use normally. Now that the grandboys are getting close to heading out, I'm sure I'll be hitting from forward tees a bit more...until they start to beat my butt. Wait!, I'll move them back and just stay put.

[fixyurdivot]

This is really a great discussion and question.  One would think simply moving to the shortest length would improve scoring and I suspect for most, it would with repeated play.  But as pointed out, it can really change how you play/manage the round.  I suscribe to the idea that if a player cannot reach most greens in regulation with well hit shots, then they should move up or consider combo tees.  Our courses here have 5 sets of tees and I know a good many players who have moved up a tee and even more that use the combos. 

I keep track of FIR's and GIR's during my rounds and find that if I stay at 6000 or less, I can reach most holes in regulation with well struck shots.  On this course, I've tried the blue a couple of times and it's a stretch - leaving my better scoring to scrambling and one putts.  The Blue/White is doable but the white just seems to fit best most days and in most conditions.  

I think far too many play course lengths too long for their games and suspect that's just the commomly accepted standard and perhaps a bit of testosterone driving the decision.

 

[Kenny B]

12 minutes ago, fixyurdivot said:

This is really a great discussion and question.  One would think simply moving to the shortest length would improve scoring and I suspect for most, it would with repeated play.  But as pointed out, it can really change how you play/manage the round.  I suscribe to the idea that if a player cannot reach most greens in regulation with well hit shots, then they should move up or consider combo tees.  Our courses here have 5 sets of tees and I know a good many players who have moved up a tee and even more that use the combos. 

I keep track of FIR's and GIR's during my rounds and find that if I stay at 6000 or less, I can reach most holes in regulation with well struck shots.  On this course, I've tried the blue a couple of times and it's a stretch - leaving my better scoring to scrambling and one putts.  The Blue/White is doable but the white just seems to fit best most days and in most conditions.  

I think far too many play course lengths too long for their games and suspect that's just the commomly accepted standard and perhaps a bit of testosterone driving the decision.

 

Yep!  It bothered me for awhile when I moved up to the senior tees at my course, but it was more enjoyable to hit some irons instead of long clubs for 2nd and 3rd shots.  Doesn’t bother me a bit now.

 And if we have wind, there are still a few holes that aren’t reachable.  Bill, you remember what our rough is like and when I told you to just get the ball back in the fairway… and you didn’t.    I can still find myself hitting a lot of FW from the rough into greens when irons are much more fun.

[RickyBobby_PR]

22 minutes ago, fixyurdivot said:

One would think simply moving to the shortest length would improve scoring and I suspect for most, it would with repeated play.  But as pointed out, it can really change how you play/manage the round. 

Puts an emphasis on the scoring clubs, it’s an area where the higher handicaps struggle. What I’ve seen is many will still hit driver and they end up In the uncomfortable distances and end up thinning their wedges or chunking them. Unless they get better with partial shots playing shorter over a period time doent just get them better. Some I play with adjust and don’t hit driver on every hole and give themselves more full swings into the greens

[fixyurdivot]

1 hour ago, Kenny B said:

Yep!  It bothered me for awhile when I moved up to the senior tees at my course, but it was more enjoyable to hit some irons instead of long clubs for 2nd and 3rd shots.  Doesn’t bother me a bit now.

 And if we have wind, there are still a few holes that aren’t reachable.  Bill, you remember what our rough is like and when I told you to just get the ball back in the fairway… and you didn’t.    I can still find myself hitting a lot of FW from the rough into greens when irons are much more fun.

I was using my "trust but verify" that day .

[Prodigal Duffer]

20 hours ago, fixyurdivot said:

This is really a great discussion and question.  One would think simply moving to the shortest length would improve scoring and I suspect for most, it would with repeated play.  But as pointed out, it can really change how you play/manage the round.  I suscribe to the idea that if a player cannot reach most greens in regulation with well hit shots, then they should move up or consider combo tees.  Our courses here have 5 sets of tees and I know a good many players who have moved up a tee and even more that use the combos. 

I keep track of FIR's and GIR's during my rounds and find that if I stay at 6000 or less, I can reach most holes in regulation with well struck shots.  On this course, I've tried the blue a couple of times and it's a stretch - leaving my better scoring to scrambling and one putts.  The Blue/White is doable but the white just seems to fit best most days and in most conditions.  

I think far too many play course lengths too long for their games and suspect that's just the commomly accepted standard and perhaps a bit of testosterone driving the decision.

 

I think the frequency with which someone hits well-struck shots should impact tee selection. Unfortunately, I don’t have a good suggestion for what that frequency should be. I played tees slightly longer than your blue tees last weekend. My front nine was awful, but largely impacted by several penalty strokes. My back nine was (for me) quite good. The length was not the issue, the issue was me being a bozo - I was five over on three holes and made par on the other six. Generally, I would say that those tees are appropriate, but given that I haven’t broken 90 (yet), maybe I should move up. What do you think?

[fixyurdivot]

7 minutes ago, Prodigal Duffer said:

I think the frequency with which someone hits well-struck shots should impact tee selection. Unfortunately, I don’t have a good suggestion for what that frequency should be. I played tees slightly longer than your blue tees last weekend. My front nine was awful, but largely impacted by several penalty strokes. My back nine was (for me) quite good. The length was not the issue, the issue was me being a bozo - I was five over on three holes and made par on the other six. Generally, I would say that those tees are appropriate, but given that I haven’t broken 90 (yet), maybe I should move up. What do you think?

Again, if you are able to reach most greens in regulation, including shots having the distance but around the green, then I think total yardage is not the primary issue.  It's more likely a combination of less than average short game prowess and course management.  Moving up a tee is easy enough...give it a try a few times and see what if any difference it makes in scores.

[Prodigal Duffer]

As promised, I played the front tees with my son today (9 holes). Posted my best score ever (38). Had a great time. 

[Tom the Golf Nut]

Just another thought. The course has a lot to do with having a benefit to moving up. My course has 8 dog legs. The tee shot is short but your second shot is long. As an example the 3rd, 5th, and 11th hole need irons or shorter hybrids off the tee but on both second shots they are roughly 200 yards to the green. The 5th hole is a par 5 with a double dogleg. From either tee it’s a positioning shot. Followed by another positioning shot. You get the idea. On a few holes you can even play the back tees and not need driver due to the layout. There are no shortcuts. All the trees on the course are very tall pines and they are not 80 percent air (Trust me on that). Off the top of my head I can only think of three holes where moving up is a real benefit.

Now that I put my thoughts to print, I think I’m going to do an experiment. I’ll play the tips, then the men’s, then the seniors and see how different my score is. Probably later this season though. Cobra Challenge coming up soon.

[vandyland]

Revisiting this topic (a) because it was referenced in the MGS newsletter/email today and (b) because I have fallen behind on my semi-annual foray to the front tees. 

I joined a club middle of this year and, as a result, have been a little self conscious about announcing I am playing from the front tees. Almost every man under the age of 60 plays from at least the blue tees which is 6,500 yds. The forward tees are 5,100 yds. Even so, as the weather has started to turn the course is thinning out. I think I could easily do it during the week especially. I will say that since putting is my weakest part of my game there is a strong likelihood I don't go super low and as @Tom the Golf Nut pointed out there are certain holes where it doglegs so much you don't really trim anything off your approach shot. Even still, I used to love doing this a few times a year so this is my commitment to eye the tee sheet and try to find a good day to do it. Really looking forward to playing the par 5s because here are the differences:

Hole 3: [Blue yardage] 560 yds vs [Fwd yardage] 434 yds
Hole 6: 520 vs 417
Hole 12: 511 vs 415
Hole 15: 543 vs 422
Hole 17: 530 vs 406

So most of the time I would be picking up about 100-125 yds each par 5. 

[Tom the Golf Nut]

1 hour ago, vandyland said:

Revisiting this topic (a) because it was referenced in the MGS newsletter/email today and (b) because I have fallen behind on my semi-annual foray to the front tees. 

I joined a club middle of this year and, as a result, have been a little self conscious about announcing I am playing from the front tees. Almost every man under the age of 60 plays from at least the blue tees which is 6,500 yds. The forward tees are 5,100 yds. Even so, as the weather has started to turn the course is thinning out. I think I could easily do it during the week especially. I will say that since putting is my weakest part of my game there is a strong likelihood I don't go super low and as @Tom the Golf Nut pointed out there are certain holes where it doglegs so much you don't really trim anything off your approach shot. Even still, I used to love doing this a few times a year so this is my commitment to eye the tee sheet and try to find a good day to do it. Really looking forward to playing the par 5s because here are the differences:

Hole 3: [Blue yardage] 560 yds vs [Fwd yardage] 434 yds
Hole 6: 520 vs 417
Hole 12: 511 vs 415
Hole 15: 543 vs 422
Hole 17: 530 vs 406

So most of the time I would be picking up about 100-125 yds each par 5. 

I did not benefit as much as you will by moving up. Mainly because of the dog legs forcing you to layup anyway. 

Par 5's

Hole 4 was 44 yards difference. Restricted tee shot distance on a dog leg.

Hole 8 was 91 yards. The only straight hole. Gold tees (Driver 8 iron), White tees (driver hybrid). Blue tees is an extra 15 yards. (Driver, 5 wood, chip) Either way is usually an easy birdie hole. 

Hole 15 was 86 yards. Double dog leg. Restricted tee shot distance. Then all you got. Then approach. 

Hole 18 was 66 yards. Play the angle tight to the right-hand side with all you got or preferably a slight fade. A great shot leaves you 200 out but the green is surrounded by water and it's a small green. Smart to lay-up. Then you have 60 yards to the pin over water.  

[Golf2Much]

My home course's normal men's white tees are 6035 yards (rating 69.5, slope 129 with a par 70).   The men's league and our golf association (manages GHIN and raised money for junior golf) has an 85 rule to move up to the senior gold tees.  By that it's the combination of age and your handicap from the gold tees must be 85 or more.  The gold tees are just under 5500 yards (67.7/124).  The problem with that rule is that you can maintain a particular handicap in a lot of different ways.  In my case, for various physical reasons, my driver distance is about 175 yards and on par fours it's driver, five wood and a pitch or chip to get to the green.  Given I'm pretty good around the greens keeps my handicap down(ish) and prevents me from playing the senior tees.

Last Saturday I announced I was breaking the rule and moving up.  I'm such a renegade!  After three rounds, I have to say that it made golf more fun by giving me the chance of getting on in two on par fours.  It also consistently put irons in my hands on most if not all the par threes.  All of this gave me more opportunities to hit something other than driver, five wood, wedges and putter.   Now, it's time to petition the powers that be that we need to move to more a more yardage-based criteria (e.g. five iron distance x 36) which is a better way for moving up.

After three rounds, I've noticed that I'm having more fun.  Also, with a lower course handicap on forward tees, it does add a bit more pressure to play a little better.  What used to be a good round from the white tees is now expected from the golds.  

[vandyland]

2 hours ago, Golf2Much said:

After three rounds, I've noticed that I'm having more fun.  Also, with a lower course handicap on forward tees, it does add a bit more pressure to play a little better.  What used to be a good round from the white tees is now expected from the golds. 

 

Yes, the pressure thing is interesting. I don't putt very well so some days I don't make anything and that is fine from the 72 rated tees that I play currently but once I get up to the 65 rated tees I am expected to make a few birdies just to stay afloat on my index. Of course all the par 5s are easier to reach, etc, but it doesn't always balance out. 

[TurtleHacker]

We have 5 sets of tees at my home course: Gold, Blue, White, Green, & Red. At age 67, 67, & 73 our threesome plays from the white during the warmer days & the green from the cooler or wetter days. Lots more fun and isn't that what's its all about anyway?

[Tom the Golf Nut]

Well I gave it a shot today. How low could I go hitting from the forward tees. I was surprised that the biggest difference was the angles. There wasn’t a ton of yardage gain. I did manage to shoot 5 under for a 67. I missed a couple of putts I should have made. But it was fun being between 40 and x 100 yards out hitting into the greens.

[Josh Parker]

I am going to give this a go this week at my course.  

It also gives me a good idea to do with my normal playing partners on one of the days we play.  I'm going to get 4 tees to match the color of the tee box and randomly pick a tee out of a hat and that's the box you play from.  Rotate who selects the random tee.  

[vandyland]

Well, my forward tee experiment was a funny non-event. I played the front 9 in 25 mph winds from the forward tees which is about 700 yds shorter. I hit 8/9 GIR, I had wedges or less into every par 4 in regulation and...I shot +2. Couldn't make anything. I believe I missed 4 putts inside 9 ft (3 of them for birdie) including a 5 footer. For reference, from the Blue tees (my normal tees, 6500 yds) I typically shoot +2 or +3 on the front 9. So this was zero improvement. Hit that ball fine but man my putting was abysmal. 

[AvgGolferinPA]

On 6/2/2023 at 1:38 PM, Prodigal Duffer said:

I've played the forward tees a couple of times this year when playing with my 10 year old. We are playing this weekend, and I am strongly considering doing it again. My reasoning is that it will help speed our pace of play if we play from the same tees. It's also been fun in that I drove the green on a short par 5 and had lots of scoring chances. I found it really fun. What I didn't like about it was that it more or less guaranteed that I hit nothing but woods and wedges. As for scores, I did way better than I had been at my standard tees, shooting a 41 and a 42 (each with a three putt and at least one penalty stroke). These days, I'm hitting the ball a lot better (shot a 41 from standard tees last weekend), so I'll be interested to see if I can shoot around even par from the fronts.

Ultimately, golf is stupid and my scores mean nothing. So, might as well have some fun out there.

This.  

I'd like to try playing from a forward tee more often.  Just to work on breaking the mental scoring limits I put on myself.  To have fewer 3 putts, I've been working hard to try and 2 putt every green.  But now I'm stuck 2 putting even when I chip it close.  And not being aggressive enough when I do have scoring chances.  

[TurtleHacker]

Judy Rankin, a member of the World Golf Hall of Fame once said that if you're not hitting 7-iron or less into at least half of your greens during a round, then you NEED to move forward to a shorter tee box.

[Stuka44]

On 6/2/2023 at 9:45 PM, fixyurdivot said:

This is really a great discussion and question.  One would think simply moving to the shortest length would improve scoring and I suspect for most, it would with repeated play.  But as pointed out, it can really change how you play/manage the round.  I suscribe to the idea that if a player cannot reach most greens in regulation with well hit shots, then they should move up or consider combo tees.  Our courses here have 5 sets of tees and I know a good many players who have moved up a tee and even more that use the combos. 

I keep track of FIR's and GIR's during my rounds and find that if I stay at 6000 or less, I can reach most holes in regulation with well struck shots.  On this course, I've tried the blue a couple of times and it's a stretch - leaving my better scoring to scrambling and one putts.  The Blue/White is doable but the white just seems to fit best most days and in most conditions.  

I think far too many play course lengths too long for their games and suspect that's just the commomly accepted standard and perhaps a bit of testosterone driving the decision.

 

I know this post is about scoring, and its pretty old already, and I just came across it.  This really caught my eye.  This is what every scorecard at every course should look like.  There should be a combo distance between all tee boxes listed like this.   Even if they are not rated, for handicap.  Just like on this card, don't make a drop of 751 yards from white to gold the only option.  Calculate a  White/Gold Combo.  This is FANTASTIC.  Wherever this card comes from, they should be sending it to the USGA, as something that should be required.  Even if the COMBO tee boxes go unrated.

Afterall, golfers from my play last Saturday, are too lazy to fix a ball mark! I fixed 7 gouges on one hole, 40 for 18 holes.  You think that they are going to calculate a combo tee for themselves to maybe make their play more manageable, NOPE White is where "we are supposed to play from".  Ego will prevent 95% of all golfers from EVER playing from  5249, even though they probably should be.

[TurtleHacker]

I was a member of a course for 3 years. At my age and skill level there were two tee boxes appropriate for me (and my buddies). One was 6300 yards, a little long. The other was 5700 yards, a little short. So we made our own combo course with the tees now set at about 6000 yards, just right.