SuperSpeed sues The Stack System

[GolfSpy MPR]

Thought it might be interesting to discuss the blog post news that SuperSpeed is suing The Stack System for false advertising: https://mygolfspy.com/news-opinion/superspeed-sues-the-stack-system-for-false-advertising/

For those interested, the filing is found here: https://static1.squarespace.com/static/603d222df4a6a57df7ef3e29/t/663cdba5d89e3a1848dab8d1/1715264422455/US_DIS_ILND_1_24cv3749_d34676497e293_COMPLAINT_filed_by_SuperSpeed_Golf_LLC_Jury_Demand.pdf

The central complaint is that the way The Stack falsely inflates the distance gains its users accomplish, and then users those inflated numbers to actively advertise itself to more users. It inflates the numbers in two key ways:

• In the app, the first swings you take are "Full Intent." After a few sessions, you switch to swinging with "Max Intent." SuperSpeed cites a Sasho tweet that the difference between these intents should be about 4–10%. SuperSpeed also notes that the structure of the protocol (swinging a heavy weight just before doing the lighter weight at the end) will inflate the max number. Thus, when users hit the share results button in the app, they're showing a big gain that may have nothing to do with the effectiveness of The Stack program itself.
• The algorithm that predicts on course distance often suggests a significantly inflated expectation of distance. The Stack trumpets these gains in their social media advertising. The complaint notes one instance in which an individual celebrates an on-course 20-yard distance gain, even as their Stack data suggests a 50-yard gain.

I think this will be interesting to watch. I have the Stack and think that the app is incredibly well-designed and engaging. I am not a lawyer and won't pretend to have any estimate of the likelihood of SuperSpeed prevailing in this case. But the two points that they make here are not groundless. It is clear that the early sense of progress is juiced by comparing Full Intent to Max Intent swings. And while you can dig into the website and find some of the assumptions that go into their "Distance Potential" calculations, those are very generous assumptions. According to Stack, I have a distance potential over 340 yards; according to Arccos, I actually hit the ball 100 yards shorter than that.

I think it's also obvious that SuperSpeed is taking a PR hit by filing this suit, and that it does seem to indicate a certain kind of weakness to want to take a competitor out by lawsuit.

[Josh Parker]

Interesting read and I agree that it doesn't show well for SuperSpeed.  Everything out on the market could be targeted if someone really wanted to. 

 

[Preeway]

As a consumer, I don’t find the complaint very logical. I use Stack to gain swing speed. This should lead to longer drives but there are multiple factors that lead to distance besides swing speed. I don’t usually find their estimates very accurate but maybe I’m in the minority of people that don’t blindly believe what I’m told without verifying myself. 

[KC Golf]

I think the only people making money on this law suit are the lawyers.  But that’s me with my skeptical perspective on this litigation. I should admit that I am a Super Speed user.  Out of shame may be I should trade in for a Stack!

[skraeling]

It currently has my max potential distance at 298.

so far this year I’ve hit 5 drives north of 280.  
 

287 286 285 284 280

id call within 10-15yds accurate.

and to put it in perspective last year I had only one drive over 280 and that was with a 30mph tailwind.

Does it get a little overconfident on some estimations though?  Yes.

overall is it close enough?  Also yes.

Point is I’m hitting it farther and really don’t give a crap how far it thinks I’ll hit it as I’m actually hitting it farther which is the whole goddamn point.

Anyone with two brain cells to rub together can put 2 and 2 together and know they won’t be hitting a ball with max effort.

its why it’s distance potential not distance guarantee.

Edited May 11 by skraeling

[Rob Person]

This reminds me of the frivolous lawsuit against Kirkland and their club design earlier this year.  (Apples to oranges, I know) but with the same premise I believe. One companies numbers took a hit for the quarter due to another competitor company hitting the numbers.

As was mentioned, the verbiage used is implied,  not guaranteed.  I don't see this going anywhere other than a social smear campaign where both companies suffer.

[GolfSpy_APH]

Having used both systems I have a lot of thoughts on this, but at least for now I thnk they are best kept to myself. Or maybe not... I will sleep on it and we will see. 

[Shrek74]

This feels like the company losing the battle is suing the winning company to stay in the game. I don't know who's actually winning the speed wars, but this just feels like a "cry baby" lawsuit. Similar to TM/Costco. I could be wrong, but this is just what it feels like to me.

Sent from my SM-N986U1 using Tapatalk

[Rob Person]

5 hours ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

Having used both systems I have a lot of thoughts on this, but at least for now I thnk they are best kept to myself. Or maybe not... I will sleep on it and we will see. 

Inquiring minds want to know... factual, open, and relevant information is always the best way imo, even if it's only of the personal experience kind.

If it is a conflict of interest due to MGS, I understand that too.

 

[GolfSpy_APH]

6 hours ago, Rob Person said:

Inquiring minds want to know... factual, open, and relevant information is always the best way imo, even if it's only of the personal experience kind.

If it is a conflict of interest due to MGS, I understand that too.

 

No, I don't think it is a conflict of interest. We have worked with both companies for member testing, had both on for community calls.

I get why they are doing it. But also think - all personal opinion, not the views of MGS - it's dumb. Superspeed is likely doing this due to losing market share and it's because a  lack of app and progress with that. I enjoy using stack more. A lot more. I feel the progress with both to be similar and also like that stack is not as repetitive and it is quicker to do. 

There is more variety in the swing for superspeed, but it's very much the same routine. 

I think the suit shows more that Superspeed needs to up their game and surrounding product versus what stack has been able to achieve so far.

[Josh Parker]

12 minutes ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

No, I don't think it is a conflict of interest. We have worked with both companies for member testing, had both on for community calls.

I get why they are doing it. But also think - all personal opinion, not the views of MGS - it's dumb. Superspeed is likely doing this due to losing market share and it's because a  lack of app and progress with that. I enjoy using stack more. A lot more. I feel the progress with both to be similar and also like that stack is not as repetitive and it is quicker to do. 

There is more variety in the swing for superspeed, but it's very much the same routine. 

I think the suit shows more that Superspeed needs to up their game and surrounding product versus what stack has been able to achieve so far.

Well said.  I don't have either but have done a lot of homework on both as it's something I have wanted to add to the arsenal.  

[Rob Person]

1 hour ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

No, I don't think it is a conflict of interest. We have worked with both companies for member testing, had both on for community calls.

I get why they are doing it. But also think - all personal opinion, not the views of MGS - it's dumb. Superspeed is likely doing this due to losing market share and it's because a  lack of app and progress with that. I enjoy using stack more. A lot more. I feel the progress with both to be similar and also like that stack is not as repetitive and it is quicker to do. 

There is more variety in the swing for superspeed, but it's very much the same routine. 

I think the suit shows more that Superspeed needs to up their game and surrounding product versus what stack has been able to achieve so far.

Thanks for sharing.   It seems the common thoughts are very similar in thinking it's a business rival that hurt their bottom line.

[skraeling]

6 hours ago, Josh Parker said:

Well said.  I don't have either but have done a lot of homework on both as it's something I have wanted to add to the arsenal.  

Im never not going to do it now.  It’s one of the better things I’ve done for my game.  Only regret not doing it sooner.

[Josh Parker]

35 minutes ago, skraeling said:

Im never not going to do it now.  It’s one of the better things I’ve done for my game.  Only regret not doing it sooner.

And you are doing Stack right? 

[Josh Parker]

Could SuperSpeed be upset because Stack gives you $100 credit if you trade in your superspeed?  

[Rob Person]

44 minutes ago, Josh Parker said:

Could SuperSpeed be upset because Stack gives you $100 credit if you trade in your superspeed?  

I wanted to laugh react at this. But ANY part of a business that finds ways to Undercut a similar product is going to gain more business (most of the time)

 

What are they doing with the other system if you trade it in ?  Are they shipping it back to the manufacturer with a HAHA note?

[Josh Parker]

32 minutes ago, Rob Person said:

I wanted to laugh react at this. But ANY part of a business that finds ways to Undercut a similar product is going to gain more business (most of the time)

 

What are they doing with the other system if you trade it in ?  Are they shipping it back to the manufacturer with a HAHA note?

They take a few different ones in as trade ins and then don't take others.  

[GolfSpy_APH]

There is a bit of gamification to Stack which makes it feel less like work.

[skraeling]

2 hours ago, Josh Parker said:

And you are doing Stack right? 

Yepper.  Even link my code in my bio too haha.

Edited May 12 by skraeling

[TJ Hall]

I agree it will be interesting to see where this goes.  Was actually looking at the SuperSpeed for a while, but haven’t convinced myself to do so.

To me, it seems like SS might be falling behind and maybe this is a last ditch effort to stay relevant? 

[FrogginBullfish]

I think a couple factors to consider for distance potential, if it's not aligning with what you see on course, is that the algorithm is calculating on optimal launch conditions for the swing speed potential you demonstrate. You may not be presenting those same optimal launch conditions on course, and I would hazard most people are not swinging as hard on the course as they do during Stack training. That may be the difference.

I have a Stack but due to some injuries over the last year and a half, I have not trained with it yet.

This lawsuit just reeks of sour grapes from Superspeed. You're losing market share? Adjust your product to regain it. Suing a competing company for "false claims" is a pretty weak move considering the two people behind The Stack are pretty well respected in the industry. Maybe it's a tell that Superspeed can't compete with The Stack and this is their only option.

[TacoTime]

19 hours ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

There is a bit of gamification to Stack which makes it feel less like work.

Their putting app is really fun to me.

 

[skraeling]

On 5/13/2024 at 8:19 AM, FrogginBullfish said:

I think a couple factors to consider for distance potential, if it's not aligning with what you see on course, is that the algorithm is calculating on optimal launch conditions for the swing speed potential you demonstrate. You may not be presenting those same optimal launch conditions on course, and I would hazard most people are not swinging as hard on the course as they do during Stack training. That may be the difference.

So I think why mine line up so close to my potential (we havnt had a really dry day yet so wet fairways, seriously its been a month+ of cartpath only at this point) is I did a free driver fitting when TM was doing the Qi10 day at GG and it really helped me dial in my current sim2max.

My list of errors in order with it.

1. I had it set to 11.25* because me thinking loft = good.

2. this closed the face, and my miss is ALREADY left

3. I have an AoA at 5-7* on a typical hit. So I was launching the ball WAY high and sacrificing distance.

So we turned my driver Down just one line at first and that was good (9.75*), I was still missing left and decided to go full send and drop it all the way down to 9*.  This also opens* the face like 3* too.  Thus neutralizing my path a lot at contact.

Thats why ive had 5 drives over 280yds this year alone, Combined with having absolutely more speed. 

I know this as the PRGR the stack recommends my neighbor had one and swinging as hard as I could maybe 2years ago I could hit 98 maybe at best even with no ball.  Now an air swing?  105-107mph isnt out of the question.  So I probably cruise in that 99-101 range on course. 

Thats a win no matter how you slice it.

Edited May 14 by skraeling

[ElmoGolfs]

This lawsuit reeks of desperation coming from SuperSpeed with the Stack taking a lot of their market share. Seems like the false advertising claims will be difficult to prove. Especially if Stack can show the equations for how the come up with their estimates. Seems like having the term "potential" in their calculations is a good hedge. Like this is potential distance with a 1.5 smash factor in pristine weather and perfect launch conditions. Since it doesn't track club head data it can only go off an estimated perfect strike. As long as they explain that somewhere in the app or website, I really dont see a problem. 

[Headhammer]

Coming from a highly regulated industry where a panel of experts had to approve every single marketing claim we made using sound scientific data, the golf industry has always fascinated me with their exaggerated advertising claims. Early on, I was amazed that one company never sued another company for claiming they were the longest, straightest, etc., but then realized they would then not be able to do the same thing! SuperSpeed had best be sure their own house is in order, if accusing another company of exaggerated claims!

[StrokerAce]

On 5/11/2024 at 8:31 AM, GolfSpy MPR said:

I think it's also obvious that SuperSpeed is taking a PR hit by filing this suit, and that it does seem to indicate a certain kind of weakness to want to take a competitor out by lawsuit.

Not sure I agree with this. It seems that SS just wants stack to play fair.

tbh though - we all should know since taylormade promised us we would GAIN MORE DISTANCE just by switching clubs that what these companies say and what is real are often very far apart. 

[skraeling]

1 hour ago, StrokerAce said:

Not sure I agree with this. It seems that SS just wants stack to play fair.

 

Like how close does the gap between actual on course and "potential" need to be though?  Reality being what it is there will probably always be some variable that results in you not hitting the potential.  And maybe it doesnt work out for everyone, but why is mine so close to what it says I can do?

I think this gets tossed.

[StrokerAce]

13 minutes ago, skraeling said:

Like how close does the gap between actual on course and "potential" need to be though?  Reality being what it is there will probably always be some variable that results in you not hitting the potential.  And maybe it doesnt work out for everyone, but why is mine so close to what it says I can do?

I think this gets tossed.

If Toyota says the new Camry can go 0-60 in 4.5 seconds yet it only happens on a closed track with a manual transmission and a stock car driver is that false advertising? Technically it's true.

If Stack says you have the potential to hit the ball 315 and you do it once downwind, downhill after you hit a tree root is that accurate? Especially when the rest of your drives go 260.

Every person's experience is different and some can reach their potential.

I'll admit, I don't have the stack, I do have superspeed and it's fine but not *amazing*.

At the end of the day I think you're right - there is very little chance of success here but maybe that's not the point. Maybe the idea is to put out into the public that stack might not be as revolutionary as people think it is ??? 

FWIW I think stack is a better product/device, with better design and a better interface and ss is kicking themselves for getting lapped here. 

[skraeling]

9 minutes ago, StrokerAce said:

If Toyota says the new Camry can go 0-60 in 4.5 seconds yet it only happens on a closed track with a manual transmission and a stock car driver is that false advertising? Technically it's true.

If Stack says you have the potential to hit the ball 315 and you do it once downwind, downhill after you hit a tree root is that accurate? Especially when the rest of your drives go 260.

Every person's experience is different and some can reach their potential.

I'll admit, I don't have the stack, I do have superspeed and it's fine but not *amazing*.

At the end of the day I think you're right - there is very little chance of success here but maybe that's not the point. Maybe the idea is to put out into the public that stack might not be as revolutionary as people think it is ??? 

FWIW I think stack is a better product/device, with better design and a better interface and ss is kicking themselves for getting lapped here. 

revolutionary eh probably not in the idea of what it does.  speed training is speed training and they are all using the same pretty basic concept.  What it is doing, or says it is, is leveraging its app and "ai" however big a role that plays and making it fun to do meaning you'll do it more often. Gamifying it takes the "ugh I gotta work out" out of it and changes it to a "I want to set a new high score".  At least in my poor little dumb lizard brain.

Also ive come within my potential max about 5 or 6 times this year already.... so its close (just too god damn wet for any run out yet).  so as far as it being a 1 off sorta kinda not really?  I wont really know till we hit actual summer here if I can really live up to my potential.

 

[Haile]

I don't have either of these systems. I personally use the Rypstick. Having said that, the number of lawsuits between manufacturers of golf equipment tells me that they're running out of ideas fast(that's my rationalization). If I'm a company who literally can't do anything else because I've gone as far as I can, my only choice is to prevent anyone else from taking market share. To claim false numbers is pretty weak considering everyone does it(and I mean everyone). It's no different than car manufacturers lying about MPGs. They do an estimate in a wind tunnel without considering real world scenarios. I do have to deal with technical language at work and one word can change the entire intention. With the Rypstick it always gives a "potential" distance. That to me means absolute perfect conditions such as launch angle, spin and all of the other things that come with it. It also means that they've taken out anything that can affect it like temperature, wind and elevation. Does the product I have work? You bet it does. Have I seen the gains they promised? That and more. I would think that as much R&D that goes into this stuff, would be accompanied by twice as much legal protection. When phrases like you "should" see and not "will" see get put into these things, it's not by accident. The reason I went with Rypstick vs superspeed was that it looked like superspeed was a bit of an outdated design. I like the one club aspect. I love the fact that it doubles as a warm up stick before a round. But all of that is neither here nor there. I think the overarching theme is that they're whining. As a consumer that's really off putting. I've always said that pissing in my yard isn't going to make yours any greener. It looks like that's exactly what's happening.