Why are there different tees?

[JBones]

This thread is awesome. 90 replies and over 560 views.......DURING THE SUPER BOWL.👏👏👏

[The Dansome]

This all seems a bit overthought by most people to me. Everyone should play the box they are comfortable with as long as it's just a game for fun.

If it is to be a fair competition, match, tournament, money game that assesses how good the player's really are then it needs to be played from the same box and agreed on before the round. Golf is a combination of all parts of the game.

Do they let women like sorenstam or wie play from a different box? No.

Do they let older players such as Watson or couples play from a different box than the young guys when they play in tour events? No.

If you can't compete with someone from that tee box then ask for strokes or give them strokes to move forward. If they don't accept your offer then you don't have a game. This is something that should be hammered out way ahead of time.

Example: I played a guy today that was 20+ years my senior and I had easily a 50 yard advantage on. He wanted to play the tips and we did. He proceeded to beat my @ss. This isn't bc I'm a bad player or anything, I shot 68 yesterday. He knew what he had to do to score and he did it.

+2

[Blade]

Thread of the year man. Thread of the year.

[Undershooter]

This thread is awesome. 90 replies and over 560 views.......DURING THE SUPER BOWL.

I thought I was watching it like a hawk but I watched the game for a sec and came back to the thread and there was 2 more pages of posts! Lol wtf

[Kenny B]

I guess I don't get it. The USGA Handicap Manual specifically covers how to adjust the HCP of each person playing from different tees. I wonder why that doesn't work for everyone. Yes, it would be nice to hit the ball further, but there is no chance that I can "learn" to hit it 300 and when you are my age, you won't either. My HCP is legit according to the USGA. Will I play from tees that are too far back? No. If that's a problem for you, so be it.

 

I am sorry if you think I will have an unfair advantage playing from shorter tees. My HCP is established from tees that are comfortable but challenging for me to play. I am sure you did the same in establishing yours. If that's further back, great! The USGA method adjust our course HCPs and gives you strokes based on the tee rating.

 

Apparently, we are talking about a specific situation from last year that I assume is a lead-in to whatever game is planned for the summer "get together" mentioned in another thread. If everyone wants to play from the tips because you can drive it 300+ and you expect everyone else to play from the tips, I will pass. Sorry, but I can assure you that I would most likely not reach most fairways, nor would I cover the water hazard on the par 3. How fun is that?

[Zeasy]

The answer is pretty easy. There are different tees because people want to play different lengths. You can play from the ladies tees for all I care. But if you want to play me for money or bragging rights, we are playing from the same tees. I don't get to drop out of the bunker, you don't get 20 yards a hole.

[JBones]

Actually it began as a debate, then got a little personal (not in a demeaning way) about an event this past summer. Really I didn't care, because as Rick said, we were then (almost) even off the tee when he moved up. The problem stemmed from us not adjusting handicaps based on tee boxes. Really it didn't matter at all anyway, we were just playing for fun.

 

Another issue I had though is this. A course I play has suggested tees based on handicap. If you play to a 5 because of distance restraints, from the suggested handicap for a 20, are you really a 5? According to the handicap calculation, yes you are. However that seems to be a pretty hot debate.

 

Me, I'm with everyone else, I play the tees that make it fun, which are the tips, so I can have more than driver-wedge into every hole. In a tourney setting, as long as handicaps are adjusted accordingly, I'm good with anyone playing anywhere.

[Undershooter]

I guess I don't get it. The USGA Handicap Manual specifically covers how to adjust the HCP of each person playing from different tees. I wonder why that doesn't work for everyone. Yes, it would be nice to hit the ball further, but there is no chance that I can "learn" to hit it 300 and when you are my age, you won't either. My HCP is legit according to the USGA. Will I play from tees that are too far back? No. If that's a problem for you, so be it.

I am sorry if you think I will have an unfair advantage playing from shorter tees. My HCP is established from tees that are comfortable but challenging for me to play. I am sure you did the same in establishing yours. If that's further back, great! The USGA method adjust our course HCPs and gives you strokes based on the tee rating.

Apparently, we are talking about a specific situation from last year that I assume is a lead-in to whatever game is planned for the summer "get together" mentioned in another thread. If everyone wants to play from the tips because you can drive it 300+ and you expect everyone else to play from the tips, I will pass. Sorry, but I can assure you that I would most likely not reach most fairways, nor would I cover the water hazard on the par 3. How fun is that?

That was not the point of my post Kenny b. If we were to play a match would you allow me to play from the sAme box? If so then we could go about it as usual. Otherwise there would be some negotiations for additional strokes. My point is that it should be hashed out well ahead of time and both parties should agree.

[Undershooter]

The answer is pretty easy. There are different tees because people want to play different lengths. You can play from the ladies tees for all I care. But if you want to play me for money or bragging rights, we are playing from the same tees. I don't get to drop out of the bunker, you don't get 20 yards a hole.

Couldn't agree more. My post earlier just tried to explain why to everyone else.

[Kenny B]

I'm just a simple man. You have to explain that one to me in simple terms.

That bunker thing makes no sense. The premise is that we are the same HCP so I would assume that we have similar bunker skills.

 

You are complaining that I get 20 yards?

After I get 20 yards, you still out drive me by 50 yards.

For the next shot you are playing an 8i and I'm hitting a hybrid.

For most courses we have to negotiate the same hazards.

Oh, and based on the course rating example given, the USGA says I have to give you 5 strokes.

 

And somehow you don't think that's fair for you?

[Undershooter]

To put this very poorly and I mean no ill will by it bc it is going to sound bad, but... Why is it my problem or whoever else's that you need 20 yards? If we aren't the same player or handicap(same thing) then why does someone need additional yards to help them beat someone who is just as good as them?

If you aren't going to keep count or make a bet then who cares but this is just for someone who does

[Kenny B]

That was not the point of my post Kenny b. If we were to play a match would you allow me to play from the sAme box? If so then we could go about it as usual. Otherwise there would be some negotiations for additional strokes. My point is that it should be hashed out well ahead of time and both parties should agree.

And my original post and the second one says that the USGA has a procedure to handle any HCP situation. Is it perfect? I don't think so, but it's what we have that is as close to fair as we will probably get. If I play my tees and you play the tips, then you get the number of strokes that's the difference in course rating from the respective tees. I won't be playing from the tips, but you are welcome to play from my tees. You will have a big distance advantage and likely win, but I at least I am at a more comfortable yardage and have a chance, whereas from the tips, I have no chance.

 

However like Bones, most big hitters don't want to play a short course. That's why the USGA gives them strokes when moving back. Strokes can be negotiated, but it's a starting point.

[Kor.A.Door]

Slope for the course does play a factor in the hcp system, the hcp system has nothing to do with yardage, it has to do with difficulty of the course, each course, and each tee area has a slope rating, let's play the same course from 2 different tee boxes, first the yellow tees, I am a 2 hcp, so I enter the hcp into the system and enter the slope for the yellow tees for that course, you probably won't get 2 shots, you will likely get 0 or -1, depending on the slope, if the same player plays the championship tees from the same course he will likely get 3 to 4 shots for that course, the hcp system is based on the course/tee boxes played from it is not based yardage. There is a mathematical formula that allows you to figure it out, but hcp systems like GHIN make it much easier.

As to why there are different tees, other than making it easier to play a course there really isn't a need for them.

[sp0rtsfan86]

Interesting debate topic and points. As a relatively short hitter (when I bomb it, I'm usually at 265) I like to play generally the whites. However, there is a huge penalty sometimes for playing them vs the blues. 

 

For instance, my course in NJ I loved playing 136 slope vs 127. I would easily shoot 10-15 shots worse on that course, but get maybe 2-3 strokes on handicap. Other courses like the one at my school, the blues and whites were only maybe 3-4 point different, but the big thing was some holes I was shooting 30-50 yards longer. The handicap difference was negligible because I used to shoot the same scores from both tees.

 

I think coursesand not handicaps sometimes changes up how we play and where we should hit from as weird as it sounds. What I found out was that my NJ course was longer from the whites than the blues at the school and that's what made the difference. I'd love to find out what criteria and how the slope ratings are determined. Perhaps that's what need to be changed.

 

As a side, TPC in Vegas had a guy ask you what your handicaps were and basically tell you not to play a certain tee box. The other courses we played offered suggestions, but we found that the Blues were more than ok with me. Bethpage red had no system and if I had to choose, I'd probably never play tips there again as I had far too many driver 5 woods into par 4's.

[Kor.A.Door]

And my original post and the second one says that the USGA has a procedure to handle any HCP situation. Is it perfect? I don't think so, but it's what we have that is as close to fair as we will probably get. If I play my tees and you play the tips, then you get the number of strokes that's the difference in course rating from the respective tees. I won't be playing from the tips, but you are welcome to play from my tees. You will have a big distance advantage and likely win, but I at least I am at a more comfortable yardage and have a chance, whereas from the tips, I have no chance.

 

However like Bones, most big hitters don't want to play a short course. That's why the USGA gives them strokes when moving back. Strokes can be negotiated, but it's a starting point.

The system can adjust it for you I just looked up if I play my buddy Andy, he is +1.9 hcp and I am 5.9 on out course if I play white tees i get 7 strokes if he plays white tees he get -2 strokes, he gives my 9 shots, if he moves back to the championship tees, and I stay at the white tees, he only gives me 6 strokes, the system adjusted the difference from the tee boxes, it's really simple.

[Zeasy]

I'm just a simple man. You have to explain that one to me in simple terms.

That bunker thing makes no sense. The premise is that we are the same HCP so I would assume that we have similar bunker skills.

 

You are complaining that I get 20 yards?

After I get 20 yards, you still out drive me by 50 yards.

For the next shot you are playing an 8i and I'm hitting a hybrid.

For most courses we have to negotiate the same hazards.

Oh, and based on the course rating example given, the USGA says I have to give you 5 strokes.

 

And somehow you don't think that's fair for you?

I don't see us playing competitively in the near or distant future.

[Undershooter]

I'm just a simple man. You have to explain that one to me in simple terms.

That bunker thing makes no sense. The premise is that we are the same HCP so I would assume that we have similar bunker skills.

You are complaining that I get 20 yards?

After I get 20 yards, you still out drive me by 50 yards.

For the next shot you are playing an 8i and I'm hitting a hybrid.

For most courses we have to negotiate the same hazards.

Oh, and based on the course rating example given, the USGA says I have to give you 5 strokes.

And somehow you don't think that's fair for you?

I said if I am getting shots bc you moved to a different box then I don't mind, as long as its hashed out before hand. I feel like we are saying the same thing more than you think.

[Kenny B]

I said if I am getting shots bc you moved to a different box then I don't mind, as long as its hashed out before hand. I feel like we are saying the same thing more than you think.

 

Agreed.  I'm just saying there is already a process to to hash it out.

[Kenny B]

I don't see us playing competitively in the near or distant future.

 

Agreed.

[jbil8802]

If it's really that big of a deal, figuring out course handicap based on the tees you're going to be playing from seems to be the most fair way to do it. Forcing a guy that hits it 230 to play from the tips or vice versa does not seem like the way to handle it unless you have something else worked out that you both agree on.

[Kenny B]

The system can adjust it for you I just looked up if I play my buddy Andy, he is +1.9 hcp and I am 5.9 on out course if I play white tees i get 7 strokes if he plays white tees he get -2 strokes, he gives my 9 shots, if he moves back to the championship tees, and I stay at the white tees, he only gives me 6 strokes, the system adjusted the difference from the tee boxes, it's really simple.

 

I will assume that this is correct since there are no course ratings and slope for each tee.

 

 

Like I said, this HCP issue for competition from 2 sets of tees was addressed last year by Barbajo in a USGA article.  Just so we have the procedure in this thread, it's summarized here again.

 

Step 1:  Both players calculate their Course HCP from the tees they will be playing.   (HCP Index) x (Slope from the tee)/113

Optionally, you can just go to the USGA Course HCP calculator and look them up

 

Step 2:  Subtract the Course Rating from the two tees, and add the rounded difference between the two Course Ratings to the Course HCP of the person playing the higher rated tees.  

 

The example given in the article was for a 2.2 playing a 25.2.  I think it would be rare for this type of competition except for just wagering among friends.  More typically, this adjustment would be made for players with similar HCP indexes.  Let's take the example used to start this thread:

 

Since I wasn't there, I will assume that players had a similar index of 2.  The Course HCP from the tips was 76.2 with Slope 138.  The Course HCP from the other set of tees was 71.8 and Slope 131.  Using the steps above, there is no difference in the two players Course HCP, so both would still be 2.  However, Course Rating difference is 5.0.  So, the player moving up would have to give 5 strokes to the player playing from the tips.

[mr_divots]

Shorter tees are where you go when body parts are aching.

 

Shorter tees are where you go when playing a tough course and the winds are 30 MPH that day.

 

Shorter tees are where you go to be friendly and play the same tees as the older guys you were paired with that day.

 

Shorter tees are a different challenge.

 

Shorter tees and the handicap system make golf the only sport that an 80 year old can play the whipper snapper who's back on the tips. If you allow the system to work. Who wants to beat up on an old guy from the tips? What fun is that? How much more fun is it if the system is allowed to work and an 80 year old beats you? Pretty fun.

[The Dansome]

Shorter tees are where you go when body parts are aching.

 

Shorter tees are where you go when playing a tough course and the winds are 30 MPH that day.

 

Shorter tees are where you go to be friendly and play the same tees as the older guys you were paired with that day.

 

Shorter tees are a different challenge.

 

Shorter tees and the handicap system make golf the only sport that an 80 year old can play the whipper snapper who's back on the tips. If you allow the system to work. Who wants to beat up on an old guy from the tips? What fun is that? How much more fun is it if the system is allowed to work and an 80 year old beats you? Pretty fun.

 

This is well put

[Kenny B]

The question was Why Are There Different Tees?

 

Answer:  If there was only one set of tees, all of the golf courses would close because only 1% of golfers would play.

[The Dansome]

Regardless of tees played, simply adjust handicaps accordingly and everyone's on the level. I'm fine with this and I'll play wherever the competition wants too, If I'm uncomfortable I'll just not take on a money game etc.

 

With that said it's highly important to set the old ego aside, not claim a false lower handicap to brag and look like a player if you're going to show up and try to compete.

[Zeasy]

Shorter tees and the handicap system make golf the only sport that an 80 year old can play the whipper snapper who's back on the tips. If you allow the system to work. Who wants to beat up on an old guy from the tips? What fun is that? How much more fun is it if the system is allowed to work and an 80 year old beats you? Pretty fun.

Big difference in an 80 year old playing up and I got hitting up because he hits a short driver.

[Undershooter]

Agreed.  I'm just saying there is already a process to to hash it out.

There is and I think that is the perfect place to start however it's not a perfect system. A local course here would give me 6 shots if you played the up tees and I the tips. I would probably shoot 10-12 shots better from that up tee box bc the tips are at 7600. In this case I would require more than the allotted 6 shots.

It is a good place to start but It is not a perfect system. I feel we are arguing 2 sides of the same point.

[revkev]

Holy mother of pearl on this one, talk about controversy. This thread makes the goal line call look like cake and ice cream!

 

The system works, just use it. If I show up at a course and my handicap index is 2.8 I can look at a chart and it will give me my handicap from each set of tees at that course. It's fair. If RR wants to move up then his handicap should adjust accordingly.

 

My league made me play back for ever, I moved back and let my short game do the speaking. I remained a 2-3 from the back. In some ways it is harder for me to keep my handicap down from the closer set of tees that I was moved to because when I turned 55 they made me, league rules.

 

We have handicaps because our games have holes, big ones. If a guy bombs it and is a 3 he has other issues. I will take him on from 7,000 because I will hope to take advantage of my strengths in the match just as he will hope to take advantage of his.

 

However if I'm showing up at the course and don't know where to play from my first question is, what set of tees do you play your senior club championship from. That's the category I'm in, a good senior player. If that question doesn't work the FGA has a suggestion for the distances for top players in my age group. I'll play from there because I'm most like to be suitably challenged and to have fun.

 

I would think that common courtesy would have the younger guys move up or the older guys giving the younger guys who wish to play the tips the appropriate additional strokes. thats what we do when we have a mixed group. The longer guys are reaching par 5s that I can't or half to hit 3 wood into with mid irons. Their length is rewarded when they two putt for birdie and I get up and down to tie the hole.

[Zeasy]

Holy mother of pearl on this one, talk about controversy. This thread makes the goal line call look like cake and ice cream!

 

The system works, just use it. If I show up at a course and my handicap index is 2.8 I can look at a chart and it will give me my handicap from each set of tees at that course. It's fair. If RR wants to move up then his handicap should adjust accordingly.

 

My league made me play back for ever, I moved back and let my short game do the speaking. I remained a 2-3 from the back. In some ways it is harder for me to keep my handicap down from the closer set of tees that I was moved to because when I turned 55 they made me, league rules.

 

We have handicaps because our games have holes, big ones. If a guy bombs it and is a 3 he has other issues. I will take him on from 7,000 because I will hope to take advantage of my strengths in the match just as he will hope to take advantage of his.

 

However if I'm showing up at the course and don't know where to play from my first question is, what set of tees do you play your senior club championship from. That's the category I'm in, a good senior player. If that question doesn't work the FGA has a suggestion for the distances for top players in my age group. I'll play from there because I'm most like to be suitably challenged and to have fun.

 

I would think that common courtesy would have the younger guys move up or the older guys giving the younger guys who wish to play the tips the appropriate additional strokes. thats what we do when we have a mixed group. The longer guys are reaching par 5s that I can't or half to hit 3 wood into with mid irons. Their length is rewarded when they two putt for birdie and I get up and down to tie the hole.

I really like that you have the confidence to say, "ok Mr. Big Hitter, let's see who wins," not, I need to play up so we have the same iron shot in. Respect and props!

[revkev]

NP Zeasy thanks - for good or bad our handicaps are the product of what we do well and poorly. Could be I'm as good as a touring pro at something and a 14 at others. Could be that I'm spot on a 1-5 at everything, whatever it's not fair to take two guys with a 2.8 handicap index, put them on different sets of tees and not adjust the handicaps.

 

In fact the last time I played from 7,000 was just over this issue. I played a little match with a guy who is a 9. He said he'd beat me from the tips, straight up. I said my index is my index and I will shoot close to what is expected from ther for my index. I shot 78, he shot 83 - my 78 was one off of what my index would have predicted for me 1/4 times from those tees or just about what I would average from there.

 

I will admit that it wasn't fun hitting all of those fairway woods into par 4's on my second shot but I proved my point.

 

This is a course that hosted a tour event and has a rating of 73.8 slope of 135 from the back.