LICC Posted April 17, 2021 Share Posted April 17, 2021 Pressing the club against any part of the body but your hands is cheating, or it should be. Horschel is right. https://www.golfdigest.com/story/billy-horschel-says-arm-lock-putting-should-be-banned-pga-tour?utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook&utm_campaign=golfdigest Nolan220, SirOliver, MGoBlue100 and 1 other 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post cnosil Posted April 17, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted April 17, 2021 Okay, I'll bite. Everyone has opinions on this and that is fine. You may not like armlock, but it isn't cheating and you may want to make it illegal. The rules are about anchoring the end of the club to a pivot point (belly, chest). In those strokes the putter rotated around that anchor point. In armlock the pivot point is the shoulder. The end of the clubs isn't anchored using the definition of the tour. Since anchor means to secure firmly in position we should just make putting one handed. By using two hands you are anchoring the putter. GolfSpy_BNG, puttnfool, bens197 and 13 others 15 1 Quote Driver: G400 Max 9* w/ KBS Tour Driven Fairway: Paradym AI Smoke Max HL 16.5* w/MCA TENSEI AV Series Blue Hybrids: 915H 21* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype 915H 24* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype Irons: TR20V 6-11 w/Vizard TR20-85 Graphite Wedge: 54/12D, 60/8M w/Accra iWedge 90 Graphite Putter: Render w/VA Composites Baddazz Backup Putters: Sacks Parente MC 3 Stripe, Milled Collection RSX 2 Member: MGS Hitsquad since 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cnosil Posted April 17, 2021 Share Posted April 17, 2021 Also, in the article Horschel states: "I think when you look at what guys are doing now with the arm lock and moving the grips to the side where it's parallel or matches the face and then when you do that up against your arm, I mean, it's—you know that face is dead square and that face doesn't rotate at all," Horschel continuted. "It's just sort of locked in. Guys are doing it too good." To my knowledge there isn't anything in the rules that states you can't turn your normal putting grip to the side and use the flat part against your lead hand and accomplish the same thing. You could go a little farther up and use the Superstroke wrist lock grip which basically does what I am describing but locks it in the wrist. MGoBlue100, DaveP043, SugarfreeJeff and 4 others 7 Quote Driver: G400 Max 9* w/ KBS Tour Driven Fairway: Paradym AI Smoke Max HL 16.5* w/MCA TENSEI AV Series Blue Hybrids: 915H 21* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype 915H 24* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype Irons: TR20V 6-11 w/Vizard TR20-85 Graphite Wedge: 54/12D, 60/8M w/Accra iWedge 90 Graphite Putter: Render w/VA Composites Baddazz Backup Putters: Sacks Parente MC 3 Stripe, Milled Collection RSX 2 Member: MGS Hitsquad since 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nolan220 Posted April 17, 2021 Share Posted April 17, 2021 I thought this was odd and kind of came out of no where for Horschel to bring up .. how many guys are really using it ? And it might for some it might not work for others excourse 1 Quote Speedzone Driver Tensei AV Blue or G400 SFT 10. KBS TD 50 Category 3 shaft King Speedzone Black Yellow Fairway 3 wood Tensei AV Blue 65 F9 SpeedBack Black Grey Fairway 5 Wood ATMOS Tour Spec Blue 7 shaft T300 4i-GW - Tensei AV Blue AM2 Regular Flex or JPX 900 Hot Metal 5 - GW Project X Lz 4.5 Regular Flex Graphite Glide 2.0 SS Wedges 54 & 58 TP Red White Ardmore Putter - BGT Stability Tour Black shaft Precision Pro NX7 range finder Ultralight Cart Bag Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bens197 Posted April 17, 2021 Share Posted April 17, 2021 To be honest, I can’t believe they’re still legal. I wouldn’t frown if they banned them. MGoBlue100 1 Quote PING G400 LST Mitsubishi Tensei White 60X TaylorMade SIM2 3 wood Fujilkura Ventus Blue 7-X Titleist U505 2 Tensei 1K Black 85 X Titleist T100 4-P Nippon Modus 3 120X PING S159 50-S 55-H 59-T DG X100 L.A.B. MEZZ Max Broom Accra 47" 79.5* Srixon Z-Star XV Currently testing the 2024 PING S159 wedges… https://forum.mygolfspy.com/topic/63483-testers-announced-ping-s159-wedges/ Was testing, still loving the 2023 Titleist T100 Irons 4-P https://forum.mygolfspy.com/topic/60456-titleist-t-series-irons-2023-forum-review/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
excourse Posted April 17, 2021 Share Posted April 17, 2021 Putters should be unregulated IMHO. Broomstick, belly or arm lock who cares? If any of these were the secret sauce everyone would be using them. Same goes for putting styles, let's let the croquet style putters do their thing. Between your legs? Go for it. If every type and style of putter were allowed, I'd wager scores wouldn't change a bit. The only caveat would be that no club longer than the driver be used to measure drops to eliminate the broomstick cheaters. Wishon 730CL, Driver thru SWOdyssey stroke lab CS mallet putter."World's most forgiving set for old farts" Jason Costain, flsw19, GolferXY and 4 others 6 1 Quote Wishon clubs, Odyssey CS stroke lab putter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EEZurg Posted April 17, 2021 Share Posted April 17, 2021 If you can't anchor to the chest, why should you be able to anchor to your arm? LICC and MGoBlue100 2 Quote 849 Pro Evenflow Riptide 60g EXS 7wood Tensei Blue R 699 4-7i USTRecoil 660 F3 R 699 Pro 8-AW USTRecoil 660 F3 R JB Forged 54 and JB Forged 58 Full Face TAll Wide Blade putter NX9 The Grint Pro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrogginBullfish Posted April 17, 2021 Share Posted April 17, 2021 There is a fundamental difference between anchoring to the chest and anchoring to the belly and the armlock method. Anchoring to the chest or belly creates a fixed pivot point on the body. Armlocking does not. If you can't anchor to the chest, why should you be able to anchor to your arm? Sent from my Pixel 2 using MyGolfSpy mobile app Off The Tow and Vertical 2 Quote DRIVER PXG 0811XF GEN4 (10.5°) FAIRWAY WOODS PXG 0341XF GEN4 (16°) HYBRIDS PXG 0317XF GEN4 (19°), PXG 0317X GEN4 (22°) IRONS PXG 0311T GEN3 (5 - 9) WEDGES TAYLORMADE MG3 (45°, 50°, 55° TW Grind, 60° TW Grind) PUTTER PXG BATTLE READY ONE & DONE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LICC Posted April 17, 2021 Author Share Posted April 17, 2021 7 hours ago, cnosil said: Okay, I'll bite. Everyone has opinions on this and that is fine. You may not like armlock, but it isn't cheating and you may want to make it illegal. The rules are about anchoring the end of the club to a pivot point (belly, chest). In those strokes the putter rotated around that anchor point. In armlock the pivot point is the shoulder. The end of the clubs isn't anchored using the definition of the tour. Since anchor means to secure firmly in position we should just make putting one handed. By using two hands you are anchoring the putter. Two hands on the putter is gripping it. Locking it against your arm is anchoring the stroke. Not for the pivot point but for the face rotation. It shouldn’t be allowed. MGoBlue100 and ryan.mzzz 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cnosil Posted April 17, 2021 Share Posted April 17, 2021 1 hour ago, LICC said: Two hands on the putter is gripping it. Locking it against your arm is anchoring the stroke. Not for the pivot point but for the face rotation. It shouldn’t be allowed. I could lock out my left arm and turn the grip sideways and do the same with left hand low and my fingers between the grip and forearm. The armlock minimizes wrist breakdown which will limit rotation, but not prevent rotation; unless you lock out your arm like Bryson does. But like many other methods over time it may be banned simply because people don't like it even though similar methods have been used since the 80s Nolan220, NM01, ole gray and 3 others 6 Quote Driver: G400 Max 9* w/ KBS Tour Driven Fairway: Paradym AI Smoke Max HL 16.5* w/MCA TENSEI AV Series Blue Hybrids: 915H 21* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype 915H 24* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype Irons: TR20V 6-11 w/Vizard TR20-85 Graphite Wedge: 54/12D, 60/8M w/Accra iWedge 90 Graphite Putter: Render w/VA Composites Baddazz Backup Putters: Sacks Parente MC 3 Stripe, Milled Collection RSX 2 Member: MGS Hitsquad since 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DiscipleofPenick Posted April 18, 2021 Share Posted April 18, 2021 I don't mind Horschel, but I don't agree with him here. I'm cool with arm lock, putt however you want. I went to a left hand low grip for the same reason, to help square the club face. If there's an easy, or comfortable way to do it, then let them play.Take Dead Aim excourse, Jason Costain, cnosil and 2 others 5 Quote Take Dead Aim Driver: PXG 0211 10.5* Fairway: Titleist 917 F3 15* Hybrid: Adams Idea Pro Boxer Gold 18* Irons: MacGregor MT-86 Pro Wedges: Vokey 50/54/58 Putter: SeeMore X2 Costa del Mar Ball: Srixon Z-Star Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarlH Posted April 18, 2021 Share Posted April 18, 2021 I don't have an issue with it, nor do I have a dog in the race, but I don't understand how they ban anchoring a long putter to the chest, but allow anchoring against the forearm. But, whatever. MGoBlue100, ryan.mzzz and Jason Costain 3 Quote Driver: Black Ops 12* with Cypher 50 5.0 Fairway: Black Ops 3 wood with Cypher 50 5.0 Hybrids: Black Ops 19* and 22* with Cypher 50 5.0 Irons: Gen6 6, 7, 8, 9, W, G with Cypher 50 5.0 Wedges: Sugar Daddy II 52* and 56* with Cypher 50 5.0 Putter: DF 2.1 -- BGT Stability shaft @ 34" Ball: Tour, Chrome Tour, Pro V1 Other: C10 Bag, glove My Photography can be seen at Smugmug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeftyRM7 Posted April 18, 2021 Share Posted April 18, 2021 JT called it “cheating” a while back as well. In my opinion, the skill in putting is in green reading and speed control. All the talk of face rotation and arm locking is pretty suspect. I’d like to see data on how much actually changes when you arm lock. There’s nothing “locking” the grip to your arm. There’s nothing “locking” your arm from rotating. If it was such an advantage, everyone would be doing it. Are the best putters on tour all arm locking? If they were to change the rules, where would you even draw a line? How far down can you grip? How far can your putter go up your arm? What about reverse grip? How long can a putter be? Should all tall players be required to look like Matt Kuchar when putting? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Nolan220, DaveP043, ole gray and 1 other 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Siamese Moose Posted April 18, 2021 Share Posted April 18, 2021 One of the key things I took from Horschel's comments was that guys are using putter grips that are turned 90°, so the flat surface is against the forearm. This means that the face will always be square to your arm. I agree with him that I don't think that is fair. The rule change for that should be simple: make it so the flat portion of the grip has to be perpendicular to the face. Other than that, I don't have a problem with armlock putting. Nolan220 1 Quote Moose, my cat, is Siamese Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EEZurg Posted April 18, 2021 Share Posted April 18, 2021 Had to look it up.... The Grip The grip must be fixed to the shaft, must be straight and plain in form, must extend to the end of the shaft and must not be moulded for any part of the hands. If no material is added, that portion of the shaft designed to be held by the player must be considered the grip. In my opinion, they are conforming to the rules with the grip....it's the anchoring on the arm that changes everything. ryan.mzzz 1 Quote 849 Pro Evenflow Riptide 60g EXS 7wood Tensei Blue R 699 4-7i USTRecoil 660 F3 R 699 Pro 8-AW USTRecoil 660 F3 R JB Forged 54 and JB Forged 58 Full Face TAll Wide Blade putter NX9 The Grint Pro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toehold57 Posted April 18, 2021 Share Posted April 18, 2021 Let them putt with anything they want but take away the greens book. Everyone has to become a green reader again. Wonder what Billy would say about that Another Steve, ryan.mzzz, Dpriceva and 5 others 6 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dpriceva Posted April 18, 2021 Share Posted April 18, 2021 My wife who played college golf in the 80’s uses a 35” Ping Anser she got in 1978. Since the first day of ownership, she grips down toward the bottom which allows the top 6” of the shaft to “lock” in. Should we outlaw all 35” putters? As long as a player isn’t using technology (eg Rodney Dangerfields putter) or a mechanical device to aid in the stroke, all putters and methods should be legal. BTW, Billy has the right to switch methods! GolferXY, ole gray, Haro and 1 other 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d.lama Posted April 18, 2021 Share Posted April 18, 2021 To all the people that say "anchoring, and armlock doesn't matter or doesn't make putting easier" ... if it doesn't matter then why do it and then why care if it's banned? GolferXY and MGoBlue100 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GolfSpy_BNG Posted April 18, 2021 Share Posted April 18, 2021 6 minutes ago, d.lama said: To all the people that say "anchoring, and armlock doesn't matter or doesn't make putting easier" ... if it doesn't matter then why do it and then why care if it's banned? This type of argument is strictly based on what side of the fence your on. The same argument could be made that if YOU think it is an advantage, Why don’t you switch? There is no scientific or factual answer to either question that I can see as it is all player dependent. Quote What is in my Ghost MGS anyday Maverick or Jones MyGolfSpy bag Driver: GT2 with an Aretera Alpha One Blue 55/4 shaft @ 44.75” or GD VF 5s @45” Fairway: F85 3 wood with a XPhplexx Agera X @ 42.5” F85 5 wood with a UST Elements Chrome 7F5 @ 41.5" TSR2 7 wood shaft TBD Driving Iron: Rapture 2-Iron Irons: Apex TiFusion 4-PW 2* flat with PX Hazrdus Gen4 Silver 75s Wedges: JP Camber 48 & 55 shaft TBD Putter: 2024 Phantom 5.5 @ 34” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dooterwink Posted April 18, 2021 Share Posted April 18, 2021 I own an armlock putter and the face DOES rotate, especially on longer putts because you'll get into some unusual positions if you don't let it rotate. I would encourage anyone commenting here to try it before judging. It's a very different way of putting and not without its challenges. ole gray and Dpriceva 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobr3 Posted April 18, 2021 Share Posted April 18, 2021 I totally agree with the idea of getting rid of the green reading books that these guys have. If you're a professional golfer or a professional caddy you should be able to read greens you don't need a book to tell you Dpriceva, excourse, ryan.mzzz and 1 other 4 Quote Mizuno MP68 Irons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Sanders Posted April 18, 2021 Share Posted April 18, 2021 I notice Billy Horschel isn't anchoring? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dellbo Posted April 18, 2021 Share Posted April 18, 2021 I appreciate all and every opinion. I just bought an arm lock putter after 60 years of golfing. I 3 putted 4-5 times yesterday with it as it takes time to get used to it. My point is that it is legal so you are free to join the club. I am going to get better and miss fewer 4’ putts with it. excourse 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Tutelman Posted April 18, 2021 Share Posted April 18, 2021 On 4/17/2021 at 11:11 AM, cnosil said: To my knowledge there isn't anything in the rules that states you can't turn your normal putting grip to the side and use the flat part against your lead hand and accomplish the same thing. You could go a little farther up and use the Superstroke wrist lock grip which basically does what I am describing but locks it in the wrist. I did precisely that in 2002. Pistol grip turned sideways and up the wrist several inches. Functioned pretty much the way my arm lock putter does today. I didn't like it then, because I had trouble controlling distance -- even though it was uncanny in getting the line right. But in my early 70s I developed the yips. The arm lock putter controls it better than anything else I can do. ryan.mzzz 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Another Steve Posted April 18, 2021 Share Posted April 18, 2021 (edited) I personally don't care, but can see the advantage it could provide by bracing and physically limiting the wrist movement in the stoke. How do you control it? Allow the grip to contact the wrist no further than 2" above the top cuff of a normal golf glove. I agree that the flat of the grip should be perpendicular to the face. Edited April 18, 2021 by Another Steve ryan.mzzz 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeremyD Posted April 18, 2021 Share Posted April 18, 2021 Historically the best putters had great feel, and didn’t putt this way but I understand it really wasn’t a thing decades ago. If this was truly like a cheat code then more guys would do it. Maybe Horschel should start playing this way and if he starts winning all the time then he proves his point. Otherwise he can keep having a hissy fit at Augusta and let the rule makers change the rules if they agree ole gray 1 Quote When my wife asked if I wanted to leave Maine and move to where she grew up, I couldn't say no to Pinehurst, NC. I honestly don't spend much money on golf equipment, but I'm constantly reading reviews in case I ever get ready to buy I swing left handed and have been the State of Maine Left Hander's champion since 1997, the last year they held the tournament. I'm currently a 7.1 handicap. Trying to get lower, but my gut gets in the way. WITB Driver: Epic speed 9 degree Irons: 990's S300 Stiff shafts bought when I was in college. (Received a personal use discount, otherwise would've stuck with my Hogan Edge's) 3 Wood: Epic speed 15 degree or PT15 52/56/60 Z Spin wedges (heck of a deal $100 for all 3 at Dick's in 2013) Putter: OG Rossie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silver & black Posted April 18, 2021 Share Posted April 18, 2021 I'm not sure why turning the grip any direction you want is cheating??? I'm not for banning any type of putter. If you want to hold it like a broom stick or burry it in your belly... have at it! If you are upset over that, do the same... or get better at your preferred method. Golfhandds, ParrJuan2, cnosil and 3 others 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrogginBullfish Posted April 18, 2021 Share Posted April 18, 2021 I believe the argument is that it's an alignment aid, but if that's the point should Golf Pride's Align grips also be banned? Should SeeMore's visual alignment thing on their putters be banned? Should alignment marks on woods and other putters be banned? Should lines/arrows/triple track on balls be banned? Where do you draw the line on alignment aids on the actual club/ball? I'm not sure why turning the grip any direction you want is cheating??? I'm not for banning any type of putter. If you want to hold it like a broom stick or burry it in your belly... have at it! If you are upset over that, do the same... or get better at your preferred method.Sent from my Pixel 2 using MyGolfSpy mobile app silver & black 1 Quote DRIVER PXG 0811XF GEN4 (10.5°) FAIRWAY WOODS PXG 0341XF GEN4 (16°) HYBRIDS PXG 0317XF GEN4 (19°), PXG 0317X GEN4 (22°) IRONS PXG 0311T GEN3 (5 - 9) WEDGES TAYLORMADE MG3 (45°, 50°, 55° TW Grind, 60° TW Grind) PUTTER PXG BATTLE READY ONE & DONE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DiscipleofPenick Posted April 18, 2021 Share Posted April 18, 2021 Good points! I was surprised that golf pride align grip is conforming. I thought anything raised marks or indentation that aided a player in putting their hands in the same spot is illegal.Penick wrote about alignment on the ball in 90s, can't remember which book. He thought it was vaguely illegal to align the logo (brand name) on the target line. As a player can't touch a point on the ground or place on object along the intended play line, why can they place the ball in a manner that aides alignment? I believe the argument is that it's an alignment aid, but if that's the point should Golf Pride's Align grips also be banned? Should SeeMore's visual alignment thing on their putters be banned? Should alignment marks on woods and other putters be banned? Should lines/arrows/triple track on balls be banned? Where do you draw the line on alignment aids on the actual club/ball?Sent from my Pixel 2 using MyGolfSpy mobile appTake Dead Aim fozcycle 1 Quote Take Dead Aim Driver: PXG 0211 10.5* Fairway: Titleist 917 F3 15* Hybrid: Adams Idea Pro Boxer Gold 18* Irons: MacGregor MT-86 Pro Wedges: Vokey 50/54/58 Putter: SeeMore X2 Costa del Mar Ball: Srixon Z-Star Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrogginBullfish Posted April 18, 2021 Share Posted April 18, 2021 Yeah, I don't know the rules on it that specifically but it's just more if you think a putting grip oriented so that a flat part is flush with the forearm for alignment is cheating, where's the cheating claims for all of these other alignment aids that golfers use?Good points! I was surprised that golf pride align grip is conforming. I thought anything raised marks or indentation that aided a player in putting their hands in the same spot is illegal.Penick wrote about alignment on the ball in 90s, can't remember which book. He thought it was vaguely illegal to align the logo (brand name) on the target line. As a player can't touch a point on the ground or place on object along the intended play line, why can they place the ball in a manner that aides alignment? Take Dead AimSent from my Pixel 2 using MyGolfSpy mobile app Quote DRIVER PXG 0811XF GEN4 (10.5°) FAIRWAY WOODS PXG 0341XF GEN4 (16°) HYBRIDS PXG 0317XF GEN4 (19°), PXG 0317X GEN4 (22°) IRONS PXG 0311T GEN3 (5 - 9) WEDGES TAYLORMADE MG3 (45°, 50°, 55° TW Grind, 60° TW Grind) PUTTER PXG BATTLE READY ONE & DONE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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