Arms first or body first?

[Goober]

Not sure if this is the right spot to post this.

Ive really become a big fan of Monte Scheinblumh.And seems like he advocates a hands and arms first swing and body follows.Which I totally agree with;However, what about the teachers who advocate a more passive hand swing.Where the body goes first and squares the face.

If I slaughtered Monte’s philosophies on this then forgive me.Just interpreting from his videos online.
 

What would you consider more optimal ? I know it would be case by case dependent. 

[RickyBobby_PR]

When you say body first, what are you referring to?

Body squares the face when/where?

edit: Monte like many others teaches pressure shift into the trail side to start the swing so technically Monte teaches body first. I’ve seen Monte talk about or post a video of club, then hands then upper body to starts after the pressure shift 

[Goober]

1 hour ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

When you say body first, what are you referring to?

Body squares the face when/where?

edit: Monte like many others teaches pressure shift into the trail side to start the swing so technically Monte teaches body first. I’ve seen Monte talk about or post a video of club, then hands then upper body to starts after the pressure shift 

I think .. or believe… Monte teaches that the hands and arms initiate the transition. Versus the move where Amateurs get their arms and hands stuck behind them. In an attempt to use a passive hand body oriented pivot driven swing.Again, forgive me if I misunderstood stood him 

Edited September 18, 2023 by Goober

[RickyBobby_PR]

19 minutes ago, Goober said:

I think .. or believe… Monte teaches that the hands and arms initiate the transition. Versus the move where Amateurs get their arms and hands stuck behind them. In an attempt to use a passive hand body oriented pivot driven swing.Again, forgive me if I misunderstood stood him 

There are no passive hands or arms in the swing. That’s been debunked by many pros. With that out of the way,

The body initiates the transition. Pressure is shifted to the trail side to start and is finished for some at club parallel and others by lead arm parallel. Pressure moves back to 50/50 between club or lead arm parallel and before then end of the swing, transition is happening at this point as pressure goes 70/30 into the lead side by the end of the swing. The hips lead the arms by .02 seconds.

amateurs get stuck for various reasons. Some can be in a good position at the top but they fire the hips (not a good thing) which gets them steep.

getting stuck is a sequencing issue.

Not sure if you read his posts on wrx, but he talks about how the arms will never lead. I don’t recall if he’s done social media posts on the subject. He does talk about having the feel the arms move first but it’s impossible to actually have them. It’s a way to get some golfers to not get the arms trailing

[cnosil]

I think from a teaching perspective it could be either based on how the student processes and executes the instruction.  The instructor should understand the golf swing and be able to explain things to a student in different ways.  For one student the thought could be start with the body and another start with the arms…..both should ultimately end up sequencing the same.   

[vandyland]

I am a big Monte fan so I am biased in here but I was taught (by someone OTHER than Monte) a body first swing and now I spend almost all my time working on undoing that, using Monte's principles. I think even Monte will tell you it is nearly impossible to start the downswing with your hands but it "feels like" you are in his swing. The body swing always felt like I rolling the dice when I was trying to time up my rotation AND I could never really fix it once it started going off the rails. The hands driven swing feels much more fixable in the moment for me. 

Also, the demonstration that really drove it home for me was this. Grip your golf club and then put it into shaft parallel to the ground position in the downswing, then have some behind you hold the clubhead as resistance and you try to pull that person. Try it first by initiating and driving that pull with your body/hips only (passive arms). Then try again but use your arms primarily as the pulling force. I was shocked at how weak I was with passive arms. 

Edited September 18, 2023 by vandyland

[DaveP043]

In my opinion, any generic golf instruction video, even from the very best instructor, is bound to be good for some players, and completely disastrous for others.  You don't really know what your body is doing (feel ain't real), you don't really know what you need to change, and you don't know what drills or new feels will help you to make better swings.  

2 hours ago, Goober said:

Monte teaches that the hands and arms initiate the transition

This particular feel, the hands and arms starting the transition, could lead to completely "over the top" motions for many golfers.  For others, it might be perfect.  There really is no "optimal" feel or swing system.  Optimal is to find a good instructor who will work with your swing and your capabilities to determine what drills and feels will help you to improve.  

This leads me to ask you, why are you a fan of Monte as opposed to any other swing coach on the internet?  Do his suggested "feels" seem comfortable to you?  If so, I'd suggest that you're not changing anything, because change will almost always feel odd at first.  

[Goober]

I read a lot of Monte’s posts.And love his video presentations.He is one of the few that really specialize in the amateur side of the golf game imho.I do realize now he is talking about a “feel”.But I would say his feels are spot on.And I really like how he deals in facts.Associating with his teachings would be a smart move for anyone imho 

[cksurfdude]

Also a fan of Monte's instruction (shout out to @Kenny B who first told me about him) and have attended a few of his in-person clinics.

Now, I'm going to emphasize - WHAT HE HAS COACHED *ME* - is to get the hands and arms moving down much sooner in transition.

Now, second, plz keep in mind there are other students at the same clinic and each of them receive their own personal key to help them move forward improving their own swing.

A lot of Monte's teaching is based on his extended observations of both amateur and pro golfers, studying how other instructors instruct and digging through the data and stats on the pros .. that underlies how he diagnoses and instructs each student.

One thing he mentions a lot is the difference in timing between ams vs pros in re when the hands and arms actually start changing direction in transition - not surprisingly it's much, much sooner with the pros and "a few elite level amateurs".

So my key, as mentioned, is not necessarily to start the downswing, per se, with the hands and arms but .. emphasized .. FOR ME TO GET THE FEELING OF THE HANDS AND ARMS MOVING - EVER SO SLIGHTLY - FIRST.

When I first started golfing I'd attended a 3 day immersive school of a famous teaching pro .. where they emphasized (1) weight shift then turn, and (2) turn turn TURN then swing. I'd spent a lot of years trying to learn that...

..only to learn from Monte (whom I obviously trust and believe) that that way was a leading cause of my inconsistent swing and multiple misses..!!

So to go back to the OP question - and to echo what others have said very well - body first vs arms first is just a feel that is individual to you.

Ideally everything is always moving together in a nice, smooth flowing synced movement.

[RickyBobby_PR]

1 hour ago, Goober said:

I read a lot of Monte’s posts.And love his video presentations.He is one of the few that really specialize in the amateur side of the golf game imho.I do realize now he is talking about a “feel”.But I would say his feels are spot on.And I really like how he deals in facts.Associating with his teachings would be a smart move for anyone imho 

Monte has pro golfers he works with, he also consults with other pros and vice versa has some students that get help from other teaching pros.

He uses what he’s learned as a former pro, former long drive champ and teaching pros and applies that to his teaching methods for amateurs. He is knowledgeable on biomechanics, gears and uses that as well. 
 

Like any pro some people will get along with his teachings and some won’t. A lot of what he teaches aligns with what amg teaches and when you dig into the swing it aligns with a lot of other instructors. The key thing in lessons is the ability of the teacher to communicate his/her thoughts to the student in a way the student understand and can do what’s being asked.

I think the key with Monte is that he addresses the biggest thing that will help a student improve the fastest. 

[Kenny B]

6 hours ago, cksurfdude said:

Also a fan of Monte's instruction (shout out to @Kenny B who first told me about him) and have attended a few of his in-person clinics.

Now, I'm going to emphasize - WHAT HE HAS COACHED *ME* - is to get the hands and arms moving down much sooner in transition.

Now, second, plz keep in mind there are other students at the same clinic and each of them receive their own personal key to help them move forward improving their own swing.

A lot of Monte's teaching is based on his extended observations of both amateur and pro golfers, studying how other instructors instruct and digging through the data and stats on the pros .. that underlies how he diagnoses and instructs each student.

One thing he mentions a lot is the difference in timing between ams vs pros in re when the hands and arms actually start changing direction in transition - not surprisingly it's much, much sooner with the pros and "a few elite level amateurs".

So my key, as mentioned, is not necessarily to start the downswing, per se, with the hands and arms but .. emphasized .. FOR ME TO GET THE FEELING OF THE HANDS AND ARMS MOVING - EVER SO SLIGHTLY - FIRST.

When I first started golfing I'd attended a 3 day immersive school of a famous teaching pro .. where they emphasized (1) weight shift then turn, and (2) turn turn TURN then swing. I'd spent a lot of years trying to learn that...

..only to learn from Monte (whom I obviously trust and believe) that that way was a leading cause of my inconsistent swing and multiple misses..!!

So to go back to the OP question - and to echo what others have said very well - body first vs arms first is just a feel that is individual to you.

Ideally everything is always moving together in a nice, smooth flowing synced movement.

Monte has a unique way of teaching for sure.  I was skeptical at first, but I liked that he could come up with multiple methods and drills to help people create the desired movement.  We don't all respond the same to instruction and he can find one that works for different people.  I was a serious OTT swinger with lots of the issues that come with it.  I could play it, but didn't really want to play golf that way.  

When I read "arms first or body first", I assumed that meant during the transition.  I had always completed my backswing, then began my downswing by moving my body forward while rotating my upper body.  Bad.  I never really thought about my arms; they came along.  I had several issues.  I spent a long time with Monte working on getting my backswing "deeper" and this old body has trouble doing it but I'm better now than I was.  When I started doing that, I began my transition much earlier; shifting lower body forward followed by my arms starting down and the club moving away from the target before I rotate.  So technically my body (lower) begins first, but it's a pressure shift to the left, although it feels like the arms begin the downswing. I don't have much swing speed so it looks like all this is happening in slow motion... even though it's full speed for me!