Course/Slope Rating

[Micah T]

Handicap posting season just started here in Utah: posted my 1st 3 scores of the season and to my surprise my handicap went up from 1.7 to 1.9. The scores were 1 over, a 3 over and a  4 over. So I looked at the differential for these rounds: to my surprise my diff for a 1 over round was a 2.3! So I checked the course rating -70.6.  So, I tell myself I need to play some harder courses around the valley, and to my shock, they all have around the same slope rating, between 70.3 and 70.6, except for the course I play my men’s league at.(which is at 73) What really blew me away was how wildly the slope rating changed at all these courses: even when the course rating was identical! So courses I would view as “harder” the slope goes up, but the course rating does not. Really made me think about the difference between being scratch and a traveling scratch…..

Your thoughts?

[Golf2Much]

Let me try and help.  A course's rating and slope are intended to reflect two different golfing populations.  The rating is aimed at reflecting what a scratch golfer (handicap index 0.0) would be expected to shoot.  The slope is a relative measure of how more difficult the course would be for a bogey golfer (20.0 for men and 24.0 for women).   When courses are rated, there are different landing areas specified for both populations.  For example, men's scratch golfer full tee shot landing areas are around 250 yards total (230 yards carry with 20 yards roll) while bogey golfer's full swing tee shots are 200 yards (180 yards carry and 20 yards roll).   

The overall difficulty is influenced by the obstacles and characteristics in and around each of those landing areas.   Bunkers, trees, penalty areas, topography, etc. that would be in play for a bogey player's landing area could very well not be an issue for a scratch player as they could hit over them.  When rating green target and crossing obstacles, at the same green size or crossing distances, you will have vastly different levels of difficulty for scratch and bogey players.  So, depending on the course design, you could have courses with similar course ratings yet varying slope ratings.  I guess that's why course ratings will often center around the course's par rating and slopes can range from 55 to 155 (with an average of 113).

Though both course ratings and slopes are intended to apply to both golfing populations, both are used in the handicap index calculation.  

Given it was the start of your posting season, could the one of the rounds have a playing conditions calculation applied?  If the course was set up easy, greens receptive, etc. and more golfers met their anticipated scores, a PPC of -1 could account for that slightly higher differential.  

[DaveP043]

@Golf2Muchhas provided a pretty good explanation of the rating system.  The rating group takes a whole bunch of measurements, and those measurements come up with a Scratch golfer rating and a Bogey golfer rating.  The most important factor in both ratings is playing length, with the various obstacles having a pretty small effect.  The Course Rating is the Scratch golfer rating.  The Slope is a function of the difference between the Scratch and Bogey ratings.  Sometimes the various hazard and/or difficulty factors will impact the Bogey rating a whole lot more than they will the Scratch rating, which results in a high Slope, even if the CR (the Scratch rating) is relatively low.  This bit from the USGA Handicapping Rules Appendix G list the factors considered:

Quote

The Course Rating and Slope Rating is the evaluation of the playing difficulty of the course for the scratch player and the bogey player under normal playing conditions. The effective playing length is determined from the measurement of each hole, adjusted for the impact of roll, wind, elevation changes, altitude, dog-legs and forced lay ups. In addition to the effective playing length, there are 10 obstacle factors evaluated on each hole for both the scratch player and the bogey player. These are: topography; fairway; green target; recoverability and rough; bunkers; crossing obstacles; lateral obstacles; trees; green surface and psychology. The Course Rating System uses table values, adjustments and formulas to calculate ratings.

So for you, your "target score" will be Par plus your Course Handicap.  CH is HI*(Slope/113) - (par-CR).  For you, its going to be about 2 strokes over the CR, so for your course rated 70.6, your target score is going to be about 72.6.  

As to what happened to your Handicap Index, the scores you post are important, but so are the oldest scores, the ones being replaced.  If you shoot 70, but it replaces a 68 (assume the same course), your handicap will go up, even though the 70 is a fine round.

[chisag]

5 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

The rating group takes a whole bunch of measurements, and those measurements come up with a Scratch golfer rating and a Bogey golfer rating.  The most important factor in both ratings is playing length, with the various obstacles having a pretty small effect.  The Course Rating is the Scratch golfer rating.  The Slope is a function of the difference between the Scratch and Bogey ratings.  Sometimes the various hazard and/or difficulty factors will impact the Bogey rating a whole lot more than they will the Scratch rating, which results in a high Slope, even if the CR (the Scratch rating) is relatively low.

 

... I understand it is a flawed system and admittedly the best we have, but never been a fan of ratings/slope. Perfect example is my home course has the most difficult par 3 I have ever played and I have seen more bogies and double bogies than any other hole on the course. And it plays to a yardage of 108-115-138. The green slopes off on three sides with the rear of the green the only place it does not but has a steep bank and with a back pin it's easy to go a little long and have a tough putt. The biggest issue is just hitting to the center isn't always the best play because a ridge runs through the center and a shot landing on the ridge will kick one way or the other, hit the false side and go off the green. 3 bunkers with a very deep bunker guarding the front. 

... I have a love hate relationship with that little par 3 as I have hit many iron shots within 2 feet of the flag that ended up off the green. Granted that would be a slight push or pul as I rarely aim at the flag but it just shows how difficult the hole plays. But what I find the real shocker is it is the 18th rated hole for handicap because it is short in length. Yet plenty of low index golfers walk away with a bogie. And when the greens are running at a 12 for tournaments, it os by far the most difficult hole on the course. 

[Golf2Much]

@DaveP043, I was going it mention the scores "falling off the end" too.  I help manage our local GHIN so I get all sorts of questions and complaints when people's handicaps go up or down.  Funny how I get more questions when they go down. 

The first thing I ask them is what scores fell out of the latest 20 scores?  As you indicated, they can have just as much impact as the most recent scores that were posted.  

[funkyjudge]

1 hour ago, chisag said:

 

... I understand it is a flawed system and admittedly the best we have, but never been a fan of ratings/slope. Perfect example is my home course has the most difficult par 3 I have ever played and I have seen more bogies and double bogies than any other hole on the course. And it plays to a yardage of 108-115-138. The green slopes off on three sides with the rear of the green the only place it does not but has a steep bank and with a back pin it's easy to go a little long and have a tough putt. The biggest issue is just hitting to the center isn't always the best play because a ridge runs through the center and a shot landing on the ridge will kick one way or the other, hit the false side and go off the green. 3 bunkers with a very deep bunker guarding the front. 

... I have a love hate relationship with that little par 3 as I have hit many iron shots within 2 feet of the flag that ended up off the green. Granted that would be a slight push or pul as I rarely aim at the flag but it just shows how difficult the hole plays. But what I find the real shocker is it is the 18th rated hole for handicap because it is short in length. Yet plenty of low index golfers walk away with a bogie. And when the greens are running at a 12 for tournaments, it os by far the most difficult hole on the course. 

I play golf at least twice a week with two guys who are USGA Course Raters. One is a very close friend, and is in a training and supervisory role for course raters and rates courses all over the USA (including Hawaii), plus he has recently re-rated every course in Puerto Rico.  There is a very exact science to hole rating, and a par-three is never going to be rated tougher than the 12th to 14th hardest hole on ANY course.  We have a 214-yard (white tees; more than 230 yards from the tips) par-3 hole on the course where my travel team plays its home matches (the course rating supervisor is the captain of our travel team). Not only is this hole long, it also has a crowned and elevated green. That course was re-rated two years ago, and that hole got the #12 stroke rating, which is the most difficult par-3 rating that I have ever seen. Among the senior golfers who play in our statewide travel league (senior tees @ about 182-189 yards for our matches), only about 20% of the players can reach the green on this hole, and those who do usually hit driver or 3-wood. If a golfer does reach this green in regulation, their chances of holding the green is about 10%. I have a tremendous advantage when I am playing a match here, as I can hit a 5-iron or 4-hybrid to the green, depending on the wind and temperature, and it is easier to get some check-up on shots hit with those clubs.  Still, I have never had to give an opponent a stroke on the hole because there’s no way that I am going to be giving any of them 12 strokes.

[DaveP043]

15 hours ago, funkyjudge said:

There is a very exact science to hole rating, and a par-three is never going to be rated tougher than the 12th to 14th hardest hole on ANY

This simply isn't accurate.  Beginning in 2020, the hole handicap indices are recommended to be based partly on the "difficulty" as determined by the rating, but are also recommended to be adapted for a few other factors, and are subject to an individual course's Committee review.  We recently decided to revise our indices, and got the recommendations from the Virginia State Golf Association.  The first factor is the "difficulty value", defined as the average of the bogey and scratch ratings compared to par.  Our 4 par-3 holes ranked as 10, 6, 13, and 18.  The 205-yard 4th hole's "difficulty value" was 0.44 strokes higher than the 470-yard par-5 18th hole.  

15 hours ago, funkyjudge said:

Not only is this hole long, it also has a crowned and elevated green. That course was re-rated two years ago, and that hole got the #12 stroke rating, which is the most difficult par-3 rating that I have ever seen. Among the senior golfers who play in our statewide travel league (senior tees @ about 182-189 yards for our matches), only about 20% of the players can reach the green on this hole, and those who do usually hit driver or 3-wood. If a golfer does reach this green in regulation, their chances of holding the green is about 10%.

All of these factors have a relative small impact on the scratch and bogey ratings, as compared to the actual distance.  Perhaps that's a flaw in the rating system, but that's the way it is.

But I agree in one way, the Committee is usually very reluctant to assign a really low Handicap Index to par-3 holes, and I'm the same way.  Perhaps we're all influenced by tradition.

[elight]

There's a little 9 hole course near me I liked to play at last year because you could always play 9, could always walk, and getting tee times was not an issue. It is definitely a shorter track, par 35 measuring 2600 yards from the whites. Most of the shortness comes from two short par 4s. Nonetheless, I find it challenging with many tight holes, hazards on every hole, and lots of OB. 

I believe the course rating and slope rating are way off. USGA has it listed from the whites as course rating 63.2, bogey 80, slope 90. Among the issues here is the fact that bogey golfers are thus expected to do better relative to their handicap than scratch golfers (they likely have less to gain from the shortness and more to lose from the hazards/tightness/OB). So a scratch golfer should expect to shoot 7 better than their handicap, and a bogey golfer should be expected to shoot 10 better than their handicap? Makes zero sense to me. 

This course totally screwed up my handicap last year. I couldn't get an answer from anyone at the course about these things. (Oddly, 18birdies has a different rating and slope for the course.) It ended up closing abruptly and I switched to a different course and my handicap quickly came down 4-5 points. Now they've reopened and I'm reluctant to play it. 

Edited March 30 by elight

[chisag]

4 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

All of these factors have a relative small impact on the scratch and bogey ratings, as compared to the actual distance.  Perhaps that's a flaw in the rating system, but that's the way it is.

But I agree in one way, the Committee is usually very reluctant to assign a really low Handicap Index to par-3 holes, and I'm the same way.  Perhaps we're all influenced by tradition.

 

... First off just opinion so take that for what it is, but I just don't understand that philosophy. By far the 2 most difficult holes at my home course are both par 3's. Mainly because they have virtually zero recovery ability for a marginal tee shot. The area around the green is so penal that an up and down is extremely difficult unless you miss in the right spot, which is long so even that negates the distance theory. 

Par 5s: 2, 3, 4, 7

Par 3s: 15, 16, 17, 18

... The par 5s give you not one but two chances to recover from bad shots. I have birdied all 4 in one round. I have never come close to birdies on all 4 par 3's. I can probably count on two hands the times I have made 4 pars. I very rarely make a bogie on the par 5s but have had a few rounds with 2 bogies on all the par 3s. 

... I would certainly make the argument that a 515 downhill par 5 with wide fairway and no hazards is much easier for a high index player than a 170yd par 3 with severe fall offs on all sides of the green and a much more contoured and difficult putting surface. My normal pards are a 10, 12 and 15 index and have infinitely more bogies and double bogies on the par 3s compared to the par 5s. 

[Kenny B]

10 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

This simply isn't accurate.  Beginning in 2020, the hole handicap indices are recommended to be based partly on the "difficulty" as determined by the rating, but are also recommended to be adapted for a few other factors, and are subject to an individual course's Committee review.  We recently decided to revise our indices, and got the recommendations from the Virginia State Golf Association.  The first factor is the "difficulty value", defined as the average of the bogey and scratch ratings compared to par.  Our 4 par-3 holes ranked as 10, 6, 13, and 18.  The 205-yard 4th hole's "difficulty value" was 0.44 strokes higher than the 470-yard par-5 18th hole.  

Agree.  Our course “Committee" changed the ratings for several holes a couple of years ago.  One relatively short par 4 used to be rated #3.  It had water all down the left side of the fairway that also ran in front of the green; to the right of the fairway is rough that are high grassy mounds.  Serious lie issues and carry over the water means no guarantee getting over the water.  The green is no bargain once you get there avoiding a massive bunker on the right and a deep pot bunker just over the water in front.  The “Committee” which is the pro, asst pro, and Men’s Club players decided that it didn’t deserve to be rated #3, so it was changed to #7, because for the better players it’s driver or less and a wedge.  I think it’s probably the hardest hole on the course for the bogey golfer.  I’ve seen scores up to 11.  

As for par 3’s we have 5 of them; two on the front nine (par 37) and three on the back nine (par 35)  The ratings are 13, 9, 10, 4, and 16.  I don’t think the ratings for these par 3’s was changed much, if any.

Since most of the rounds played by the Men’s Club are played from the Blue tees and not from the Black tees, the hole ratings were assigned based on their hole scores over the course of a year.  So, one thing to consider when looking at the Hole ratings is what Tee was used for the rating.  In our case it is not the tips!!  Playing from the White or Senior tees, I have a completely different view of hole difficulty than from the Blue tees.

Edited March 30 by Kenny B

[Golf2Much]

My home course has 146 yard (white men's tee) par 3 that's rated 9th overall.  That's higher than five of the par 4s.  Our hole number 8 requires a carry over mangroves, traps that run completely in front and behind a narrow green and has penalty areas left, right and behind the green.  

Here's what it looks like from the tee box on a good day because the mangroves pictured were just cut.  Often, golfers who let's say are height challenges can't even see the green from the tee.  

It's a challenge indeed!

[tony@CIC]

1 hour ago, Golf2Much said:

My home course has 146 yard (white men's tee) par 3 that's rated 9th overall.  That's higher than five of the par 4s.  Our hole number 8 requires a carry over mangroves, traps that run completely in front and behind a narrow green and has penalty areas left, right and behind the green.  

Here's what it looks like from the tee box on a good day because the mangroves pictured were just cut.  Often, golfers who let's say are height challenges can't even see the green from the tee.  

It's a challenge indeed!

I’ve played that hole, thankfully I didn’t save the score card as a reminder. FYI this was several years ago, the mangroves weren’t cut back and you could hardly see the green. 

[Golf2Much]

@tony@CIC, welcome to my world!   Try playing it three times a week, 52 weeks a year.  

[chisag]

... Hole #8 is a round killer too. Hard to tell from the picture but the green is crowned in the front and the drop off below the bunker is about an 80foot drop. I have hit shots on the front left that almost stoped, caught the false front and rolled 80feet down the hill. And the dormant Bermuda is growing down the lope so lots of fat pitches where the grass just grabs the club head and it never gets out of the grass. Just a brutal hole. After a year or two I play to the middle if I am swinging well, the right side of the green if not sure of my swing and when winging poorly just hit to the left pf the green leaving a decent chip depending on pin location. The bunker is no picnic with hard sand and a very high lip. Below is a scorecard when I was swinging really well and put the ball on the front right. I turned to get some water and heard "Oh No!" and saw my ball moving, picked up speed and rolled al the way down the hill. My pitch mark was 10 feet below the hole and 8 feet on the green. You can't run the risk of doing it again and I have learned to play long to the back fringe and hope for a 15-20 foot par save. 

... I play a combo tee and all par 3's are played from the tips. This one plays 190 into the prevailing wind. My guess is this par 3 hole plays to an average of around 4.5 considering all indexes that play it. On a very windy day an average of 5 is probably more accurate. Calling it the 15th handicap hole is pretty ridiculous. Of course my highest index playing pard had a hole in one to a very difficult back right pin LOL.