tone of Recent Articles

[GolfSpyC]

Exactly, so there is no need to trash jdm because it suits a particular market with specific market needs.

 

Just b/c a company fulfills a certain need doesn't mean they're above critique.

[GolfSpyC]

Tim Clarke at Wilson calls it "Male Jewelry."  There are folks that will buy a diamond encrusted driver from DeBeers simply because they want to.  My only hope is to be the salesman who gets that commission! I personally don't begrudge anyone for spending whatever they want to on anything. Someone earlier in the thread mentioned Rolex - it's a finely crafted piece of equipment, but you know what the biggest difference is between a $10,000 Rolex and a $30 Timex is? 

 

The Timex keeps better time

 

This is an entirely uncomfortable reality of this dialogue, but one which really is the crux of the issue - at least for people who are ultimately concerned about performance.

[xxio]

Just b/c a company fulfills a certain need doesn't mean they're above critique.

Critique is quite different from how the tone of the article. I think that is what the OP wanted to convey. The article seems to be written to antagonize, judging by the responses elsewhere and even here on "home turf" it has succeeded. It has also been successful in bringing in the views.

 

If I were critiquing JDM if would ask them to be more open about their processes, ask them to give more background on their skilled workers, etc.

 

They have to show that their manufacturing process and equipment are superior and show that their workers are not just $7/hour guys who just cut and epoxy.

 

They talk about it but pictures would be nice, not just referring to Himeji like a mysterious place.

[xxio]

Afaik Rolex is the only watch company that does everything in-house. They even have their own gold smelting? foundry? for their watches.

 

 

Timex is very well made, lot of their production is done 13kilometers from where I live. I have 4 Timex because the facility has a sale every Christmas season so I get good value and only 1 Rolex. The Rolex serves other purposes outside of keeping time. Jewelry was mentioned.

 

If you want to use that argument then you should be using a $250 WalMart set that is bent for loft and lie regardless of amount of lead tape you need to use. You should be driving the cheapest car or bike on the market.

 

You can't use the argument of pricing one way only.

[xxio]

We buy things up to our own individual perceived value for money.

 

I cannot afford a PxG set because it exceeds my perceived value for money. I have a few Bettinardi putters even though they have terrible resale because my own perception of their manufacturing process is high. I guess you should be critiquing me a lot

[apprenti23]

You can drive a Prius or a Tesla to work and sure they will both get you to work at the exact same time, but which will provide you a better experience? Some people don't mind paying for a better experience. Same as your Timex/Rolex analogy. Anyone who tells someone else how they should spend their money is the true idiot.

[GolfSpyC]

Critique is quite different from how the tone of the article. I think that is what the OP wanted to convey. The article seems to be written to antagonize, judging by the responses elsewhere and even here on "home turf" it has succeeded. It has also been successful in bringing in the views.

 

If I were critiquing JDM if would ask them to be more open about their processes, ask them to give more background on their skilled workers, etc.

 

They have to show that their manufacturing process and equipment are superior and show that their workers are not just $7/hour guys who just cut and epoxy.

 

They talk about it but pictures would be nice, not just referring to Himeji like a mysterious place.

 

Sounds like you would write the story a different way with a different perspective. And again, that's part of an adult dialogue

[GolfSpyC]

You can drive a Prius or a Tesla to work and sure they will both get you to work at the exact same time, but which will provide you a better experience? Some people don't mind paying for a better experience. Same as your Timex/Rolex analogy. Anyone who tells someone else how they should spend their money is the true idiot.

 

For my money, the Tesla probably gets you there at least a fraction sooner. That said, when you rely on such subjective terms like "experience" the analogy falls flat. Different industries have different measures of performance and again, at the end of the day people can spend their money however they want to...but my point was, and still is, if you're spending money w/o taking the time to think it through and/or making decisions based on false claims, that's not a very intelligent way to go about things. Not sure where you're getting this "telling someone else how to spend their money" bit, but I agree with you. 

[apprenti23]

For my money, the Tesla probably gets you there at least a fraction sooner. That said, when you rely on such subjective terms like "experience" the analogy falls flat. Different industries have different measures of performance and again, at the end of the day people can spend their money however they want to...but my point was, and still is, if you're spending money w/o taking the time to think it through and/or making decisions based on false claims, that's not a very intelligent way to go about things. Not sure where you're getting this "telling someone else how to spend their money" bit, but I agree with you.

We're on the same page- perceived value is entirely subjective and it goes hand and hand with any experience. My analogy is sound- one vehicle isn't going to save time off of your commute (both go same speed) and neither is going to fix traffic during rush hour resulting in you getting from point a to point b the exact same time. The only differentiator is the idea behind driving a tesla is going to be a better experience over a Prius.

[revkev]

I actually think the car analogy works. I had a member at a former church who owned a used car lot. He'd go to auto auctions all the time and certainly knows his cars, it's his business. In the end he'd say that they were all dressed up engines and framework.

 

I really didn't perceive the same tone issues in the JDM article as the Pebble one. (I just that there goes T again on the first one. Apparently he struck such a nerve that lots of folks missed the point). I understand the gripe about Pebble because for many the course and the tournament are sacred. Perhaps that's the case with the other article and there is a group with an emotional investment to JDM products?

[BIG STU]

I hear ya, but your refined sense of feel is more like 1 in a 100 or 1 in 1000, from my experience. Either way, it's phenomenal you have this and know exactly what it is you want - For me, I don't include standard production models like the MP 32s, 33s, in the JDM discussion b/c they were made and marketed to the US/rest of the world. Miura, Epon, etc. are in line with what I consider JDM to be...

I will say this I do not hit anything straight off the shelf. Anything I play I have rebuilt to my feel and specs. And yes there is a difference between Miura and Mizuno. Mizuno does not make a bad mass produced club at all. I think the difference between Miura and anything Epon is that they are crafted a little slower and more carefully. then you get into the individual fitter and builder for Miura. My friend is a Miura dealer and he knows his stuff and I have learned a lot from him. We do bounce ideas off each other from time to time. IMHO it is all in the way the metal is selected to begin with and then how it is heated and processed into the finished product. Now I will agree with you that the average player will not improve his game any by spending $2000 or more on a set of Miura irons or any JDM brand.

[Maverickping]

The tone of the articles does not bother me. Use of profanity not at all, I used to play sports and  have heard it before. The only thing I would say about profanity: be careful as some people might be offended by it and end of limiting your market share. JDM equipment, I play Miura because I always wanted to and believe in their process and know people involved at Miura and appreciate their efforts. I could care less what anyone plays other than if they are happy. Much bigger things for me to be concerned about than things like this, after all it is only a game.

[chemclub]

I wasn't going to comment here because I like the unvarnished feel of MSG posts. It lends an air of authenticity and the right amount of snark can provide the right amount of humor (granted everyone's snark tolerance is different). 

 

However...

 

My DST Compressor just arrived and I went back to some of the MSG posts on it. The "We Told You So" post struck me as particularly odd even though it originally impelled me to purchase the DST. Especially for a review site, the "We Told You So" just came off as insecure and defensive. I was not on the receiving end of feedback after the original DST review (there seems to be a small but vocal Tour Striker crowd that was having no truck with the DST), so maybe there was a feeling to defend the claims of the initial review. It still just seemed odd and out of place. Anyone else?

[RookieBlue7]

I'm just curious how people don't realize a lot of the articles on the blog are a person's opinion as much a study of whatever the article is about? Why should the author write to placate everyone? What good does it serve and how does it differentiate MGS from anywhere else? We come here for the truth, it's part of the site's mission statement. Now that a few words some don't like being in the text, we should ask that they tone it down? Become like every other golf publication out there? I just don't get it. We all know what we signed up for. We know that MGS is against the grain of the industry. So why are people still surprised when a piece is published that's EXACTLY what they've told us all along that the site is about? Guess I just don't get it. I'm not offended easily, rarely ever. I understand what the site is about. I also understand that opinions are like buttholes, we all have one. I also listen to shock jocks and expect some level of condescension from them as well. To the staff writers, keep doing what you're doing. If a s*** here or a **** there offends someone, they're looking for a reason to be offended.

[xxio]

Because like you said we are here for truth.

 

Articles should be presented with truth. If it is just going to be an opinion then let the guy start a topic in the forum where it is discussion based.

 

In my OPINION blogging should have some sort of standard or at least a well researched and presented view. IMO MGS has that in 80%+ of the articles. This one was not just off, it was well off the standard that MGS has set for itself.

[GolfSpy Barbajo]

Can't speak for any of the other bloggers, but my goal when writing is to tell the truth as I see it.  I have no illusions that I know the truth - best I can do is weed through piles of information, points of view, angles, rosy scenarios and all that and try to find something that sounds and feels right and give you my honest assessment of something.  Maybe that's an opinion, but I try to give my best assessment based on known facts, observations and personal experiences.  

 

It is my opinion that no one has exclusive rights to the truth -- everyone we deal has an angle and a vested interest in getting a positive story out. What makes me happy is when we get feedback like on the recent Bridgestone article. I had people call it a fluff piece to promote Bridgestone, and others say it was a harsh assessment of the company.  In this case, the truth was probably somewhere in the middle - in this case an honest assessment of where I think Bridgestone is right now and what its prospects are.  

 

I think the standard you refer to XXIO is what Tony and Adam tell me -- be true to yourself and to the mission of MyGolfSpy, and you'll never go wrong with honesty.  For me that's doing your homework before doing any interviews, researching the hell out of a company and its history and putting all the information through a filter before running with it.  Even then, due to the human factor, some facts get mixed up and mistakes are made.  I got a lot of good natured ribbing from the Bridgestone team for "promoting" their social media person to Director of Marketing.  Sloppy, but I didn't make that mistake again.  

 

Bottom line - facts are facts. How those facts are interpreted and what we think those facts mean is the truth as we see it.  Someone else may see the truth differently, and that's okay. That's what makes this place so damned interesting.  I learn a lot by reading remarks that I don't necessarily agree with - it's important to listen to, consider and really think about differing points of view.  

 

After all, as my old man used to tell me -- "It's what you learn after you know it all that really counts."

[HighFade]

Wow, that was some interesting reading, I've been on this site for about 3 years now I think, and I never read the blog until just a few months ago if I remember correctly. I still don't read it very often, I did read the pebble beach pro am article, and while I understand where the writer was coming from, I also didn't care. I like the watching the pro-am, I think it's still a good tournament, it's also for the fans, it's also for the celebrities, it's becoming more about he celebs lately, but the tourney is what it is, it's like Waste management Phoenix open, it may not be for everyone, they are what they are, I enjoy watching golf, so I don't care what tourney it is. If someone writes a blog that bi don't like, I just stop reading and move on, the blog is just like every post here, it's someone's opinion, everybody has one, but mine is the only one that matters. I disagree with a lot of posts, and things here, some I leave alone, some I jump in, I have disagreed with and had mild arguments with some of you here, but we've mostly kept it it pretty civil and at the end of the day sometimes we just agree that we disagree, that's life sometimes. I really enjoy coming here and chatting, and the back and forth commentary on his site, there are a lot of good people here. I don't always feel like I fit in here, but it's a place for me to read about golf, and talk about golf, sometimes my opinion is the law, sometimes I realize it's not, but I won't generally let you know that, or give up the fight. This is fun y'all. If you don't like something don't read it.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

What he said.

[revkev]

I particularly like Kor's last sentence, "this is fun you'll."

 

Going back to the JDM article it's pretty clear that the author did his research and that some don't like his interpretation of the data. I may have prefered more data but in the end there has to be a what does this mean moment. MGS a is not afraid to provide what does this mean moments.

[wbealsd]

Whether one agrees with an authors opinion, at least they're not puff pieces, bought and paid for by the OEMs...

 

I don't "play what the pros play," because I'm not good enough to be a pro and the pros don't all play the same equipment anyway.

 

I've been around here long enough to know who has a similar game to mine, and their opinions matter the most to me, even if we don't end up agreeing.

 

If I don't like an opinion piece, I move on.

 

If I ever met anyone that agreed with me 100% on everything, I'd go crazy

[GolfSpyC]

I particularly like Kor's last sentence, "this is fun you'll."

 

Going back to the JDM article it's pretty clear that the author did his research and that some don't like his interpretation of the data. I may have prefered more data but in the end there has to be a what does this mean moment. MGS a is not afraid to provide what does this mean moments.

 

 

I hope everyone takes a minute to really digest what Barbajo is saying - Part of what I take from it is the importance and maturity it takes to understand no one has exclusive rights to truth. And in point of fact, we typically don't deal in universal truths and our job is to do our very best to make sure we are as informed as possible and then produce pieces which hold truth the mission and vision of the site. Part of the byproduct is that there are going to be people who don't like what's said - So be it. 

 

With the JDM piece specifically, I'd love to see a test - maybe a MGS Labs - around the performance differences between different clubs - My hypothesis is that we'll likely end up about where we are but sometimes it's the absence of data and information which speaks just as loudly as anything else. 

 

I think as long as people can remain civil and attack ideas rather than people, it's all good...and honestly, if you regularly dabble in online forums, there's a reasonable likelihood you don't mind having a spirited conversation from time to time.

[Kenny B]

Whether one agrees with an authors opinion, at least they're not puff pieces, bought and paid for by the OEMs...

 

I don't "play what the pros play," because I'm not good enough to be a pro and the pros don't all play the same equipment anyway.

 

I've been around here long enough to know who has a similar game to mine, and their opinions matter the most to me, even if we don't end up agreeing.

 

If I don't like an opinion piece, I move on.

 

If I ever met anyone that agreed with me 100% on everything, I'd go crazy

Over the past couple of years, I would say that I probably agree with you on most things.  Maybe we shouldn't meet up on the RTJ Golf Trail.  I don't want to be responsible for what might happen.  

[wbealsd]

Over the past couple of years, I would say that I probably agree with you on most things.  Maybe we shouldn't meet up on the RTJ Golf Trail.  I don't want to be responsible for what might happen.  

ROFL!

[xxio]

If we're going to to go down the route that everything written is a personal version of the truth then we might as well throw everything out the window.

 

There has to be a standard. We ask the OEMs to be "truthful" but then we can't hold ourselves to a standard? So what if every OEM from now on tells us everything they tell us is just their version of the truth. Is GolfSpy as a forum fine with that?

 

I'm not fine with that.

 

There has to be a line somewhere for everyone ideally it is the same line.

[GolfSpyC]

If we're going to to go down the route that everything written is a personal version of the truth then we might as well throw everything out the window.

 

There has to be a standard. We ask the OEMs to be "truthful" but then we can't hold ourselves to a standard? So what if every OEM from now on tells us everything they tell us is just their version of the truth. Is GolfSpy as a forum fine with that?

 

I'm not fine with that.

 

There has to be a line somewhere for everyone ideally it is the same line.

In my opinion, what you're asking for doesn't exist. Or at least in the form you're wanting it to. It sounds like you want some universal standard which applies to all and is consistently applied. Furthermore, it sounds like you're suggesting we don't hold ourselves to any standard - which is entirely untrue. 

 

These conversations and topics all exist somewhere in between absolute truth and absolute relativism. And while that's clearly uncomfortable for some, for me, it's the reality of the blogosphere. Furthermore, the willingness we have to take on and engage in conversations without the need to appease a particular company or person is what makes this site unique - and in my opinion, more honest.

 

If you want a simple regurgitation of facts as presented by OEM's, you're going to struggle to find it here.

[GolfSpy Barbajo]

If we're going to to go down the route that everything written is a personal version of the truth then we might as well throw everything out the window.

 

There has to be a standard. We ask the OEMs to be "truthful" but then we can't hold ourselves to a standard? So what if every OEM from now on tells us everything they tell us is just their version of the truth. Is GolfSpy as a forum fine with that?

 

I'm not fine with that.

 

There has to be a line somewhere for everyone ideally it is the same line.

 

I think you're misunderstanding - there are "facts," and there are what the "facts" mean. In journalism, beat reporters look for "facts." If you view "facts" as information provided by the OEM's, well, that's a little optimistic.  Reporters look for the who, what, when, where and how.  Analysts take another step and look for the why.  Ultimately, there's the presentation of "what does it all mean?"

 

There are plenty of sites that give you the OEM story lock, stock and barrel and endorse those stories 100% as absolute truth. Here you're going to get a little bit more - personally, I look for the who, what, when, where and how -- but to me the key is why, and what does it all mean.  Any good organization thrives on trust.  Do you trust the news source to give you a clear analysis of why, and do you trust them to give your their level best interpretation of what does it all mean?  No one is asking you to agree with it -- smart people think critically about everything, and we have some pretty smart people writing for this blog (and they're doing their best to bring me along!), and some pretty smart people reading this blog - and it's discussions like this that make us better because, as Nike said last year, "there's always better."

 

America trusted Walter Cronkite for generations - not because he asked them to trust him, but because he earned it.  Our job is to earn your trust. You don't have to agree - but we hope you'll see that we work hard to find the facts, and then give you an honest assessment of the facts. That's all ANYONE can do.  You want truthful? That's as truthful as I can give it to you.  I do my level best to earn your trust. You may agree with everything I write, with some of it or with none of it.  All of that is okay with me - but my job here is to look for stories I think you'll find interesting, unearth the facts, share them with you in an interesting manner and, based on whatever experience or understanding of the industry I've developed, share with you what it means to the best of my ability. Once written, the story doesn't belong to me anymore, it belongs to you. I'm responsible for what I write, you're responsible for what you read and how you interpret it.

 

You want a line? There it is -- I do my job to the best of my ability. If it's good enough to earn your trust, great. If it isn't, well then I've failed you. If enough people feel the same way, then I'm out of work. That's the deal for ANY journalist - for the guys at CNN, FoxNews or any of the major networks or newspapers, and it's the same here. 

[xxio]

I understand what you guys mean but I'm putting it in the context of the actual JDM article. Again IMO it was written like a forum post and not like other MGS articles that have set a certain standard that us members expect.

 

Is it a trend like the OP mentions? I hope not.

[GolfSpyC]

I understand what you guys mean but I'm putting it in the context of the actual JDM article. Again IMO it was written like a forum post and not like other MGS articles that have set a certain standard that us members expect.

 

Is it a trend like the OP mentions? I hope not.

 

The OP was talking about "tone" - You seem to be talking about "standards" which aren't one in the same. It's clear the JDM article bothered you, and that's cool. I get that my opinion, while well-researched and rooted in fact, isn't shared by all. Again, no one has an exclusive right to factual information and there are plenty of people who might reach different conclusions and I totally respect that - 

 

However, as with most divisive topics, there are those who are strongly aligned with one side or another and they tend to have the more visceral responses...If there's something specific which has fallen below your standards, I'd love to have the conversation - 

- but thus far your objections tend to be quite general in nature and with a username of "XXIO" I'd have to wager a guess you're a fan of JDM product and probably don't love any blog, post, article or writer who critiques JDM in the manner I have...Which, again, is all good by me.

[xxio]

Actually my username goes all the way back to the early 90s on 4gea. I used it because when I had to register that day it asked for a username and I had just first seen the brand that week while playing with a Japanese guest. I used it because every golf name I could think of was used.

 

I haven't had a JDM product in my bag in more than a year except for my 2 hybrid shafts, a MRC and a GD. Even then those are international products. Everything is Callaway and True Temper, except for a Graman driver shaft. I was using Toustage irons for about 1.5 years before that but Callaway driver, fws, and wedges.

 

I have kept the username on all boards since (20years?) just because I have the same viewpoint and want the same persona on all boards, not because I play JDM.

 

The only time I had a XXIO club was in the late 90s. A driver that a local pro sold me. I liked the finish that would change colors as the sun would hit it. Played it off and on for about a year then moved to the R300 Tour which was miles better.

 

I have tried a lot of JDM, I played my best with both JDM: Epons, Fourteen TB1000s and Tourstage Xblades and US: S57s, X16 pros (tour issued). I have seen quality on both "sides" and lack of quality on both "sides".

 

I just choose to criticize product on the actual product not because it is US or JDM.

 

By the way the company I'm a biggest fan of is Ping because of the engineering approach and the pretty good tolerances. It is just that nothing has fit my eye since the RaptureV2 and the S57s.

 

So you lost that wager