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Time for another look at slow play?


jaskanski
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With reference to the 2 minutes that DeCambeau took to make (and miss) an 8 foot putt at the Northern Trust, isn't it about time (pun intended) that the PGA looked at applying shot penalties to blatant slow play - in whatever form they manifest themselves?

Sure, the Pros have more at stake than most of us - but at the same time (see -there it is again) they also set the "standard" that the rest of the golfing world follow.

Thoughts?

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The tour won’t do anything til it affects tv/sponsorship money. 

Does what happen on tour affect the approach amateur golfers have during their rounds? Probably but in reality slow golfers are slow golfer and will always be slow golfers. 

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I think slow play on tour versus slow play on local courses is two different issues. Tour players play slow, local players often play poorly, and don't consider others around them.

Slow play is really a big problem for the networks. It means more dead time and less golf shots. So, once somebody has one violation in a day, give them a warning. On their 2nd, don't show them on TV the rest of the day. No matter what, no more TV time. These guys need TV time to show their sponsors why they are worth paying. If Bryson and JB Holmes are constantly getting banned, who is going to sponsor them? Hit them in the wallet where it hurts.

At local courses, we should be only letting people score double par on holes. More than that is just painful. A few of our local courses post clocks based on your start time all around the course, encouraging people to keep up. But lots of local golfers just have egos. They either don't think they're slow, don't care or take it as an affront to their manhood someone else is faster and wants to pass them.

I think slow golf on local courses is far more important to most peoples enjoyment of the game, and what the pros do, sure it sets a precedent, but I don't know any amateur golfers who are slow because they think too much about their shots.

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I think the PGA Tour will finally do something about it, purely as a result of the players driving it.
If the rules are explicit players will adjust, and if they can’t, it’s their problem.

Great to see a more general player led change, Brooks Koepka is using his prominence for good, and others are getting on board


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6 hours ago, newballcoach said:

Slow play is really a big problem for the networks. It means more dead time and less golf shots. So, once somebody has one violation in a day, give them a warning. On their 2nd, don't show them on TV the rest of the day. No matter what, no more TV time. These guys need TV time to show their sponsors why they are worth paying. If Bryson and JB Holmes are constantly getting banned, who is going to sponsor them? Hit them in the wallet where it hurts.

Slow play isn’t a problem for the networks because they have plenty of cameras around the course to cut away from the slow golfer and show another player or go back to a previous shot from another player. This happens all the time.

Not putting a guy on tv after the first violation won’t change their approach. It doesn’t cost them any money and the media will make a story out if it so they get the press anyways.

Its an easy fix and several players already have come out with the solution. Once you are warned the next one is a stroke penalty.

slow pros know how to game the system. When they get warned or put on the clock they have a set period to get back on time. They do what they need to do to get back on time and then go back to slow play. Fix it by not allowing them to game the system. Once warned any violation after that even if they get back on time is a stroke 

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Nothing wrong with the rules, if they were enforced. 

I'd like the R&A to release decisions that set precedence on the situation. And for both R&A and USGA to just enforce the rules there. 

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12 minutes ago, Green Sheep Productions said:

Nothing wrong with the rules, if they were enforced. 

I'd like the R&A to release decisions that set precedence on the situation. And for both R&A and USGA to just enforce the rules there. 

The Rules of Golf do not have a specific rule that governs pace of play, other than to say that you must play without reasonable delay.  The Rules allow the Committee to make and enforce their own policy regarding pace of play, so that falls on the PGA Tour.  Its the Tour that sets the policy, and the Tour that enforces the policy.  Its not up to the USGA or R&A to enforce slow play policy at any event that they don't directly run (such as the US Open, US AM, Open Championship, etc.).

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Looks like DeChambeau's antics this past week were enough to finally warrant a closer look.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/golf/pga-tour-reviewing-pace-of-play-policy-amid-bryson-dechambeau-controversy/ar-AAFF5RA

Also, I find it hilarious that DeChambeau called out Brooks Koepka for dropping his name when discussing slow play earlier this season.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/golf/dechambeau-no-issues-after-talking-slow-play-with-koepka/ar-AAFF81u

I can only imagine how it actually went down.

DeChambeau to Koepka's caddie: "Tell your boss to say that to my face."

Koepka to Caddie: "He said talk to his face? Ok!"

DeChambeau: "S***, Brooks is walking towards me! Oh no..."

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Dont have all the facts here, but heard an interesting comment from Dechambeau this morning. He claims that he takes more time over certain shots but that he hurries to his ball while others take their time.... (insert GIF of Koepka sauntering down fairway lol) If this is true, should he be allowed more time at his ball? I would imagine that you can make up more time hurrying to your ball than is actually taken once behind it?? 

Not on either players side here but thought it was an interesting point. I personally dont have too much of an issue with slow play at the tour level as i could watch a pre-shot player/caddy convo all day. Especially in the bigger tournaments.

As someone mentioned above, i think the issue is at the local courses where avg. golfers mimic what they see on tv..... and then you also have ppl with general lackadaisical attitude toward getting to their shot, and getting out of others way... 

unfortunately I think this issue is here to stay for awhile. 

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9 minutes ago, Chanchorp13 said:

Dont have all the facts here, but heard an interesting comment from Dechambeau this morning. He claims that he takes more time over certain shots but that he hurries to his ball while others take their time.... (insert GIF of Koepka sauntering down fairway lol) If this is true, should he be allowed more time at his ball? I would imagine that you can make up more time hurrying to your ball than is actually taken once behind it?? 

Not on either players side here but thought it was an interesting point. I personally dont have too much of an issue with slow play at the tour level as i could watch a pre-shot player/caddy convo all day. Especially in the bigger tournaments.

As someone mentioned above, i think the issue is at the local courses where avg. golfers mimic what they see on tv..... and then you also have ppl with general lackadaisical attitude toward getting to their shot, and getting out of others way... 

unfortunately I think this issue is here to stay for awhile. 

Getting to his ball before anyone else means little unless he is first to play. It's a moot point IMO. It's not like he's getting to his ball a full 1 minute and 20 seconds before the other players to make up for the 1 minute and 20 seconds extra time he allows himself to miss a putt inside 10 feet.

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57 minutes ago, Chanchorp13 said:

Dont have all the facts here, but heard an interesting comment from Dechambeau this morning. He claims that he takes more time over certain shots but that he hurries to his ball while others take their time.... (insert GIF of Koepka sauntering down fairway lol) If this is true, should he be allowed more time at his ball? I would imagine that you can make up more time hurrying to your ball than is actually taken once behind it?? 

Not on either players side here but thought it was an interesting point. I personally dont have too much of an issue with slow play at the tour level as i could watch a pre-shot player/caddy convo all day. Especially in the bigger tournaments.

As someone mentioned above, i think the issue is at the local courses where avg. golfers mimic what they see on tv..... and then you also have ppl with general lackadaisical attitude toward getting to their shot, and getting out of others way... 

unfortunately I think this issue is here to stay for awhile. 

Brooks is one of the fastest players on tour. Him sauntering to his ball is a normal paced walk. 

Getting to a ball faster than others doesn’t mean anything. Jb Holmes doesn’t even start his process until it’s his turn instead of doing all that while waiting for the others in the group to play theirs.

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So, I'm doing to drop the link to a really good article on this from The Fried Egg right here

Basically, here's the jist if you don't want to click over. He followed DeChambeau, Kisner, and JT for 9 holes at the US Open. The players took the most time when they were first to play in the group and took their most time on Chips and Putts, likely due to the green reading books. Andy submits further removing the greens book from tournament golf and setting a tiered shot clock, 60 seconds if first to play, 40 seconds if you're second or third as potential alternatives.

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1 hour ago, Chanchorp13 said:

Dont have all the facts here, but heard an interesting comment from Dechambeau this morning. He claims that he takes more time over certain shots but that he hurries to his ball while others take their time.... (insert GIF of Koepka sauntering down fairway lol) If this is true, should he be allowed more time at his ball? I would imagine that you can make up more time hurrying to your ball than is actually taken once behind it?? 

 

13 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Getting to a ball faster than others doesn’t mean anything. Jb Holmes doesn’t even start his process until it’s his turn instead of doing all that while waiting for the others in the group to play theirs.

Poor Bryson CAN'T begin to gather his data until its his time to hit, because he's scary long (my sarcasm there, not him bragging)

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Now Bryson is averaging about 302 yards (ranked 38th on Tour).  Ten yards shorter are a bunch of guys tied for 111th, so its not like Bryson is WAY out there.  He could certainly be getting his data at the same time as a shorter player is, he simply chooses not to.  The caddies are at fault, the slow walkers are at fault, and now the shorter hitters are at fault, but Bryson refuses to look in the mirror.

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I took the week off last week to prepare for back-to-school and do some stuff around the house before we get too bogged down with school activities.  I played golf almost every morning last week before beginning my daily chores.  I figured why not, right?

I was asked to play with two junior players at my home club last Wednesday and offer an evaluation for the middle school golf program.  I think the parents wanted an unbiased perspective on their kids and trusted me to give an unvarnished opinion.  They are both very good players.  Well trained in proper golf etiquette, other than pace of play.  I had absolutely no issue with their golf games.  At 11 years of age, each young man shot 84.  And that was about the worst they could have done.  One young man 4 putted from 6 feet while the other 4 putted from 8 feet with his first putt ending up off the green.  My only issue was, a threesome walking 18 holes at 7am with nobody else in sight took over 5 hours to get around 18 holes!  And this is a course they play every day!  I will add, I often walk 18 in under 3 hours with my daughter!  They were mind-numbingly slow! 

They wouldn't begin a pre-shot routine until it was their turn.  Wouldn't even calculate distance until it was their turn.  After a conversation when we were finished, I began to realize they are emulating what they see from the best players in the world.  Calculating distance, checking wind direction, evaluating a lie and choosing a club are all a part of their pre-shot routine.  It has never occurred to them to do that stuff while the other person is playing a shot.

The only way this is going to change is to force change at the highest levels of golf and hope it trickles down like this "paralysis by analysis" generation has learned.

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9 minutes ago, sixcat said:

I took the week off last week to prepare for back-to-school and do some stuff around the house before we get too bogged down with school activities.  I played golf almost every morning last week before beginning my daily chores.  I figured why not, right?

I was asked to play with two junior players at my home club last Wednesday and offer an evaluation for the middle school golf program.  I think the parents wanted an unbiased perspective on their kids and trusted me to give an unvarnished opinion.  They are both very good players.  Well trained in proper golf etiquette, other than pace of play.  I had absolutely no issue with their golf games.  At 11 years of age, each young man shot 84.  And that was about the worst they could have done.  One young man 4 putted from 6 feet while the other 4 putted from 8 feet with his first putt ending up off the green.  My only issue was, a threesome walking 18 holes at 7am with nobody else in sight took over 5 hours to get around 18 holes!  And this is a course they play every day!  I will add, I often walk 18 in under 3 hours with my daughter!  They were mind-numbingly slow! 

They wouldn't begin a pre-shot routine until it was their turn.  Wouldn't even calculate distance until it was their turn.  After a conversation when we were finished, I began to realize they are emulating what they see from the best players in the world.  Calculating distance, checking wind direction, evaluating a lie and choosing a club are all a part of their pre-shot routine.  It has never occurred to them to do that stuff while the other person is playing a shot.

The only way this is going to change is to force change at the highest levels of golf and hope it trickles down like this "paralysis by analysis" generation has learned.

I see this often. Ridiculously slow. Good young golfers that just take way to long. Only saving grace is in my area when they get into a competition pace of play is strictly enforced. They are in for a surprise when that happens. 

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1 hour ago, THEZIPR23 said:

I see this often. Ridiculously slow. Good young golfers that just take way to long. Only saving grace is in my area when they get into a competition pace of play is strictly enforced. They are in for a surprise when that happens. 

They compete on two local junior tours and have never been penalized.  Then again, neither has anyone else on those tours.  They finished 2nd and 3rd respectively in the summer long "points race" for the championship on Saturday.

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38 minutes ago, sixcat said:

They compete on two local junior tours and have never been penalized.  Then again, neither has anyone else on those tours.  They finished 2nd and 3rd respectively in the summer long "points race" for the championship on Saturday.

In our events if you are out of position at the end of the round the whole group gets penalized 2 strokes, no questions asked. Wish it was that way everywhere. 

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4 minutes ago, THEZIPR23 said:

In our events if you are out of position at the end of the round the whole group gets penalized 2 strokes, no questions asked. Wish it was that way everywhere. 

One of those two tours I speak of is the Sneds Tour in East Tennessee.  "Sneds" being Brandt Snedeker.

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3 hours ago, sixcat said:

I took the week off last week to prepare for back-to-school and do some stuff around the house before we get too bogged down with school activities.  I played golf almost every morning last week before beginning my daily chores.  I figured why not, right?

I was asked to play with two junior players at my home club last Wednesday and offer an evaluation for the middle school golf program.  I think the parents wanted an unbiased perspective on their kids and trusted me to give an unvarnished opinion.  They are both very good players.  Well trained in proper golf etiquette, other than pace of play.  I had absolutely no issue with their golf games.  At 11 years of age, each young man shot 84.  And that was about the worst they could have done.  One young man 4 putted from 6 feet while the other 4 putted from 8 feet with his first putt ending up off the green.  My only issue was, a threesome walking 18 holes at 7am with nobody else in sight took over 5 hours to get around 18 holes!  And this is a course they play every day!  I will add, I often walk 18 in under 3 hours with my daughter!  They were mind-numbingly slow! 

They wouldn't begin a pre-shot routine until it was their turn.  Wouldn't even calculate distance until it was their turn.  After a conversation when we were finished, I began to realize they are emulating what they see from the best players in the world.  Calculating distance, checking wind direction, evaluating a lie and choosing a club are all a part of their pre-shot routine.  It has never occurred to them to do that stuff while the other person is playing a shot.

The only way this is going to change is to force change at the highest levels of golf and hope it trickles down like this "paralysis by analysis" generation has learned.

For the most part I agree that there’s amateurs emulating what pros do on tv but I don’t necessarily buy it. It’s an easy apple to pick but there are far more fast players on tour than slow. Unfortunately not all get air time but brooks, dj, rory, ricky, snedeker to name a few are fast.  If amateurs were truly emulating tour players we wouldn’t be discussing pace of play for the general population.

Overall the tour doesn’t have a pace of play issue but rather some bad apples that cause the backup. 

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23 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

For the most part I agree that there’s amateurs emulating what pros do on tv but I don’t necessarily buy it. ......

I wish amateurs would emulate the pros - at least for these two items.

1. Pros always repair their ball marks - never fail - Yet I see dozens of unrepaired ball marks every day playing behind amateurs.

2. I have never seen a pro "stomp" their tee into the ground after hitting a tee shot - driver or iron - but I see amateurs do it every day and see the tees "buried" on the tee box.

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