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2020 drivers not adding much speed

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8 minutes ago, bens197 said:

Twist face isn’t anything different than Golf Pride announcing Align technology or Lamkin and their Calibrate. If anything, just a new dress on an old doll. Cleveland VAS Titanium drivers from the late 1990’s were promoting bulge & roll almost 30 years ago.

 

IMO, the greatest advance in driver technology that doesn’t get as much recognition as it should is the forgiveness distributed across the face of newer drivers. Perfect strikes will always make for great numbers but in a game of mis-hits, this is where drivers are really making strides.  

 

... Great point on mis-hits and current drivers Ben. And concerning Twist Face, here is an exerpt from my 2018 review of the Cobra F8:

"I talked with Mike Yagley Director R&D & Testing about the F8 that incorporates their patented Dual Roll design, and the F8 has a tilted bulge and roll axis that features more curvature on the top half and flatter on the bottom half that optimizes launch and spin. Sound familiar? Let me just say that I have no problem with OEMs using similar designs and calling them their own, it is part of the game. So Taylor Made’s version of Cobra’s Dual Roll they call Twist Face is fair game but I imagine it really grates the engineers at Cobra when Taylor Made says they are the “only” OEM using this technology when Cobra has been using it successfully for 6 years now."

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Driver:   Cobra Speedzone Xtreme 9* ... Tensei Pro Orange 60r
Fw wood: Cobra Speedzone 14.5* ... Atmos TS Blue 75s
Utility:   TaylorMade RBZ Tour Hy ... Matrix Altus 85 hy
Irons:    4-Gw Titleist T100-S ... Kuro Kage 105 Tini s-flex
              4-pw TaylorMade P760 ... Recoil Prototype 95 r-flex
Wedges:  SM6 52* F Grind /SM7D & SM8M 58* ... Recoil 110s
Putter:  Newport 2.5 at 33"
Ball:  TaylorMade TP5x

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in the big picture, 3-5 yards means nothing in relation to scoring.  If i can hit the fairway everytime over 5 yards longer in the rough, im taking the shorter driver all day long....splitting haris for 2mph ball speed or 3 yards in length means nothing. 

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2 hours ago, bens197 said:

Jailbreak for sure.  Twist face, not so much. Jailbreak reestablished Callaway as a top 3 driver and in many counts, #1 on Tour.

 

Twist face isn’t anything different than Golf Pride announcing Align technology or Lamkin and their Calibrate. If anything, just a new dress on an old doll. Cleveland VAS Titanium drivers from the late 1990’s were promoting bulge & roll almost 30 years ago.

 

IMO, the greatest advance in driver technology that doesn’t get as much recognition as it should is the forgiveness distributed across the face of newer drivers. Perfect strikes will always make for great numbers but in a game of mis-hits, this is where drivers are really making strides.  

Wouldn’t twistface fall into your last paragraph? They took bulge and roll which is what I’m assuming you are referring to in your second paragraph and made it better this improving how a driver performs across the face. I don’t recall the numbers that TaylorMade put out but twistface reduces the typical offline shot by several yards while improving launch and spin numbers on the high toe and low heel shots compared to the typical results from the standard bulge and roll faces. So not only does it provide better dispersion but it improves speed and distance retention.

What about AI usage by callaway? Is that groundbreaking?


Driver: Titleist 917D3 9.5 with Graphite Design MAD Pro 65g S

Wood: Titleist 917F2 with UST Mamiya Helium 5F4

Hybrid: Titleist 816H1 21 with Atmos Blue 85 S

Irons: Titleist 718 AP3 4i, 718 CB 5-6, MB 7-9 with KBS $ Taper 125

Wedges: Vokey SM7 46/50/54/60 with DG s200

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

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6 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Do you consider jailbreak to be game changing? What about twistface?

I don't. But the makers - marketers of such equipment do.

I'm certainly no golf equipment historian by any stretch, but IMO Ping introduced game-changing technology with their irons back when. TaylorMade introduced game-changing technology with metal woods. Some may say the Callaway Big Bertha drivers were game changers. Like many things... beauty is in the eye of the beholder.


My Sun Mountain bag currently includes:   TWGTLogo2.png.06c802075f4d211691d88895b3f34b75.png 771CSI 5i - PW and TWGTLogo2.png.06c802075f4d211691d88895b3f34b75.png PFC Micro Tour-c 52°, 56°, 60 wedges

                                                                               :755178188_TourEdge: EXS 10.5*, TWGTLogo2.png.06c802075f4d211691d88895b3f34b75.png 929-HS FW4 16.5* 

                                                                                :edel-golf-1: Willimette w/GolfPride Contour

 

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When the manufacturers are talking about "ground breaking technology" or "pushing the club further than ever before" all that means is incremental change year to year. They moved the center of gravity lower 1.5mm over 2019 models or they thinned the face by the width of two atoms.

Where you'll notice the difference is, for example, your still playing an Titleist 912 driver and you go hit the 2020 model. There will be worlds of improvement. Us weekend ballers aren't going to notice a year to year difference but you add all those increments up over a 5 or 7 year period, then you'll notice something.

To close, it's hard for club makers to change much and still be within USGA rules. Unless they change head size or COR etc, this is probably where we're at.

Take Dead Aim

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3 minutes ago, Tsmithjr9 said:

When the manufacturers are talking about "ground breaking technology" or "pushing the club further than ever before" all that means is incremental change year to year. They moved the center of gravity lower 1.5mm over 2019 models or they thinned the face by the width of two atoms.

Where you'll notice the difference is, for example, your still playing an Titleist 912 driver and you go hit the 2020 model. There will be worlds of improvement. Us weekend ballers aren't going to notice a year to year difference but you add all those increments up over a 5 or 7 year period, then you'll notice something.

To close, it's hard for club makers to change much and still be within USGA rules. Unless they change head size or COR etc, this is probably where we're at.

Take Dead Aim
 

For the most part this is true but many think in terms of speed and/or distance.  There are improvements that get made year to year in some cases. Look at the m5 and sim drivers. The standard deviation improved pretty significantly in the sim. So for many they are getting some more speed and distance but also better consistency strike to strike.

Then look at Callaway with the use of AI. They took the knowledge they gained in the epic flash and applied that to the mavrik drivers. They had a better understanding of the type of questions, inputs, etc to use to get better results and allowed them to have a different face on each of the heads as well as numerous heads/faces to the point of double digit models on the confirming list. As they learn more and more they will be able to continue to improve on that technology year to year even though their drivers are on two year cycles.

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Driver: Titleist 917D3 9.5 with Graphite Design MAD Pro 65g S

Wood: Titleist 917F2 with UST Mamiya Helium 5F4

Hybrid: Titleist 816H1 21 with Atmos Blue 85 S

Irons: Titleist 718 AP3 4i, 718 CB 5-6, MB 7-9 with KBS $ Taper 125

Wedges: Vokey SM7 46/50/54/60 with DG s200

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

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The swing speed is dependent on the golfer but what's more important is the ball speed. Ive tested and compared the SIM to my M5 and yes the club head speed with the SIM was faster, but it was negligible. In looking at the ball speed, the M5 had faster ball speed by 3 to 4 mph. Another thing is the spin rate and launch angle. Those are the most important things rather than pure swing speed. Those numbers equate to distance. Swing speed gives you the opportunity to create ball speed but it doesn't guarantee an high ball speed. And ball speed is distance.


M5 7.5Deg UST Proforce V2 tipped 1" strong 70g X

M5 Rocket 3 14deg UST Proforce V2  70g X

GaparLo 2 17deg KBS Tour Hybrid Prototype 95g X

4-iron Titleist T-MB Project X 6.5

5-Pw Taylormade P7TW Project X 6.5

52 Slate Blue Vokey SM7 Project X 6.5

56 Jet Black Vokey SM7 Project X 6.0

60 HiToe Mill Grind Project X 6.0

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On 3/8/2020 at 1:56 PM, did you see that? said:

looked at some reviews of cobra, callaway, and taylormade. While the reviewers liked the clubs they didn't seem to add any distance or club speed from last years model.....maybe save some dough and get last years?

I totally believe there’s some truth to this. I have a few friends on mini tours. They’ve informed me that PGA tour players themselves have told them that gains are incremental on a yearly basis. I bought a TS3 brand new early ‘19($499). It was a huge upgrade compared to my 915 in terms of distance. But due to uncontrollable spin, bought a M5 a months ago($299). For me, the distance was the same, but the M5 had less side spin on mishits resulting in more playable drives!! Id recommend saving a few hundred dollars and looking for drivers from a year or two ago. 


"The greatest pleasure is obtained in improving" - Ben Hogan

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Posted (edited)
On 3/25/2020 at 2:14 PM, RickyBobby_PR said:

Wouldn’t twistface fall into your last paragraph? They took bulge and roll which is what I’m assuming you are referring to in your second paragraph and made it better this improving how a driver performs across the face. I don’t recall the numbers that TaylorMade put out but twistface reduces the typical offline shot by several yards while improving launch and spin numbers on the high toe and low heel shots compared to the typical results from the standard bulge and roll faces. So not only does it provide better dispersion but it improves speed and distance retention.

What about AI usage by callaway? Is that groundbreaking?

I'm really bear-ish when it comes to the use of AI and if anything, its use in marketing is going to make me snicker as a total gimmick. When I went to get fit for a new driver (I just wasn't loving my Ping Anser. I know, I know...) basically every driver I tried was identical on the stat sheet. TaylorMade (with TwistFace) was 2-3 yds shorter but slightly more accurate, Cobra would give me 3-4 yds which isn't worth $500 for me, Ping was almost exactly the same. Tried at least 3 shafts with each head to try and get it optimized. Then I swung the Epic Flash SZ. Through 8 shots, including one hit badly off the heel, mean increase in distance was 11 yards with a smaller standard deviation and a much tighter dispersion.

I have no clue if that's just a better combo for me, if it's jailbreak technology, if it's AI, if it's the shaft... all I know is these days I'm consistently about 15 yards longer and being 1-2 clubs less on approach means I'm hitting more greens. I don't *rave* about this club and I can't say if the technology is a "game-changer," but I'll certainly take the bump in performance.

Edited by greggarner
added detail about TwistFace
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Driver: :callaway-small: Epic Flash Subzero 9* loft with HZDRUS Smoke stiff
3 wood: :ping-small: Rapture 14* with Aldila VS Proto 80 stiff
2-hybrid: :taylormade-small: GAPR Lo with stock KBS Hybrid 80g stiff
4i-PW: :ping-small: i210 blue dot, Power Spec, with TT S300 hard stepped
50*, 54*, and 58*: :mizuno-small: blue ion S18 with TT wedge
Putter: :ping-small: Redwood Piper 0*

Ball: :srixon-small: Z STAR XV
Bag: :ping-small: Hoofer (2018) in black/white/copper

Using :Arccos: to keep track of my shots
All clubs RH

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7 hours ago, greggarner said:

I'm really bear-ish when it comes to the use of AI and if anything, its use in marketing is going to make me snicker as a total gimmick. When I went to get fit for a new driver (I just wasn't loving my Ping Anser. I know, I know...) basically every driver I tried was identical on the stat sheet. TaylorMade (with TwistFace) was 2-3 yds shorter but slightly more accurate, Cobra would give me 3-4 yds which isn't worth $500 for me, Ping was almost exactly the same. Tried at least 3 shafts with each head to try and get it optimized. Then I swung the Epic Flash SZ. Through 8 shots, including one hit badly off the heel, mean increase in distance was 11 yards with a smaller standard deviation and a much tighter dispersion.

I have no clue if that's just a better combo for me, if it's jailbreak technology, if it's AI, if it's the shaft... all I know is these days I'm consistently about 15 yards longer and being 1-2 clubs less on approach means I'm hitting more greens. I don't *rave* about this club and I can't say if the technology is a "game-changer," but I'll certainly take the bump in performance.

It’s probably a combination of jailbreak, AI and the shaft/head combo. The lower spin head could be an big influence too. Lower spin with good launch angle is going to equate to added distance. 
 

Without seeing the data from each it would be hard to say for sure. It’s also what’s great about golf right now and that there’s options to find the best fit for each person

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Driver: Titleist 917D3 9.5 with Graphite Design MAD Pro 65g S

Wood: Titleist 917F2 with UST Mamiya Helium 5F4

Hybrid: Titleist 816H1 21 with Atmos Blue 85 S

Irons: Titleist 718 AP3 4i, 718 CB 5-6, MB 7-9 with KBS $ Taper 125

Wedges: Vokey SM7 46/50/54/60 with DG s200

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

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I totally believe there’s some truth to this. I have a few friends on mini tours. They’ve informed me that PGA tour players themselves have told them that gains are incremental on a yearly basis. I bought a TS3 brand new early ‘19($499). It was a huge upgrade compared to my 915 in terms of distance. But due to uncontrollable spin, bought a M5 a months ago($299). For me, the distance was the same, but the M5 had less side spin on mishits resulting in more playable drives!! Id recommend saving a few hundred dollars and looking for drivers from a year or two ago. 





Sent from my iPhone using MyGolfSpy

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On 3/16/2020 at 11:49 AM, cnosil said:

Multiple variables to consider. Does the player bit the center, does your mishit fall in a hot zone for the driver, are you optimizing launch conditions? Increasing swing speed does lead to more distance, as long as you are still hitting the center of the face.

Like my friend cnosil described above. This type of wording should be on every driver and ad.  Individual Results Will Vary: "You must hit the ball in the center of the face, increase your swing speed, and obtain optimal launch for our claims to be realized."

That will never happen of course. Because (fill-in the rest) 🏌️‍♂️

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My Sun Mountain bag currently includes:   TWGTLogo2.png.06c802075f4d211691d88895b3f34b75.png 771CSI 5i - PW and TWGTLogo2.png.06c802075f4d211691d88895b3f34b75.png PFC Micro Tour-c 52°, 56°, 60 wedges

                                                                               :755178188_TourEdge: EXS 10.5*, TWGTLogo2.png.06c802075f4d211691d88895b3f34b75.png 929-HS FW4 16.5* 

                                                                                :edel-golf-1: Willimette w/GolfPride Contour

 

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I saw and heard basically the same info from a number of videos and stats compilations like this so I made the decision to go with a 2018/19 M5 at a significant discount.  I paid full price for my Apex irons with a fitting so I am not (too) reluctant if the justification is there to pay the price for an upgrade.  It was for my irons so I did it.  I knew the driver was next - played an original RBZ - and have been looking at Epic Flash, TM 5/6, Cobra, and a few other vs Mavrik, SIM, Speedzone. Without seeing dramatic improvements with this years models to justify that price difference I pulled the trigger on the best deal I could get.

Kinda stoked to hit it for real after a few hits into the net.  Hope the honeymoon period lasts a long time.   Wish it was going to be here for Saturdays skins game but oh well.   


Golfer in Summer, Curler in Winter

TM M5 Tensei Red Stiff

TM RBZ 3 wood

Wilson Fybred - next on the chopping block

Callaway Apex 4 - P

Vokey 52, 56, 60

Odyssey 2 Ball with Black Line

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On 3/10/2020 at 11:30 PM, warbirdlover said:

I don't buy the new stuff anymore due to the ridiculous prices.  I wait a couple years and buy a "new" two year old driver that works as well as the latest.  I usually change to a shaft I like also and a lot of times I'll just take the shaft from my old driver. 

So glad to see multiple comments supporting second hand clubs. I bargain hunt on Facebook Marketplace all the time and there are some great great deals to be had. Taylormade V Steel fairway wood (pretty old tech I know) for $25 CAD, which is like...$18 USD? And that's my fave fairway wood ever. I was actually about to get myself a set of TM TP irons for about $200 CAD, another steal for Christmas last year, but my wife surprised me with a fitting and a set of P760s instead. 

I think a lot of comments already hit the nail on the head, about not seeing much improvements year to year. I experienced the other side of the spectrum though and upgraded from a TM R540 to the M5 last year. Those numbers changed a lot for sure. My new average carry is longer than my previous average total drive).

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Posted (edited)

All this game changing technology and PGA scoring has only improved by ~5 shots over a 50 years period and you still have only 15 guys who average scores under 70. 

Edited by Tsecor

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14 minutes ago, Tsecor said:

All this game changing technology and PGA scoring has only improved by ~5 shots over a 50 years period and you still have only 15 guys who average scores under 70. 

Looking at that same 50-year period, mean PGA course length has increased from about 6800 yards to over 7200 yards.  So scoring has improved by 5 shots as the courses have gotten a lot longer.  I'd say the technology IS a game changer to some extent.  

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:titelist-small: Irons Titleist AP2 714, KBS Tour S, 3 flat

:callaway-small: Rogue SubZero, GD YS-Six X

:vokey-small: 52, 56, and 60 wedges

:ping-small: B60 G5i putter

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Reston, Virginia

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20 minutes ago, Tsecor said:

All this game changing technology and PGA scoring has only improved by ~5 shots over a 50 years period and you still have only 15 guys who average scores under 70. 

Keep in mind that in the last 50 years courses have made the players basically play an extra hole. In 1970 Augusta was 6,980 yards. Now it is 7,435. That 455 yards longer should make scores higher, but they are still shooting better scores that in the past. Thats pretty good. If you take the 3-4 shots those extra 455 yards should take, and add them to your ~5 strokes better now it is more like 9 stokes better. Think about that. To make the cut you generally have to be within 10 strokes of the lead. Barely makes it. 

 

 

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Driver: :taylormade-small: M5 9.5* head set to 8* loft 3*open, weights set slightly lower Launch and fade bias
3 wood: :taylormade-small: M1 13.5* Head set open w/ Fade bias weights. 
Irons: :ping-small: I-Blades PW-3i, 2* up standard length.
Wedges: :ping-small:Glide 1.0 TS 60*, :ping-small: Glide 2.0 56 ES, :titelist-small:Vokey 52* 
Putter: :ping-small: Sigma G Kushin .
Ball: Various: :titelist-small: AVX, :bridgestone-small: B X, and currently testing the Vice Pro + Neon just for fun

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7 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

Looking at that same 50-year period, mean PGA course length has increased from about 6800 yards to over 7200 yards.  So scoring has improved by 5 shots as the courses have gotten a lot longer.  I'd say the technology IS a game changer to some extent.  

You beat me to it !!! I took too long looking up the length of Augusta 50 years ago... Totally agree. 


Driver: :taylormade-small: M5 9.5* head set to 8* loft 3*open, weights set slightly lower Launch and fade bias
3 wood: :taylormade-small: M1 13.5* Head set open w/ Fade bias weights. 
Irons: :ping-small: I-Blades PW-3i, 2* up standard length.
Wedges: :ping-small:Glide 1.0 TS 60*, :ping-small: Glide 2.0 56 ES, :titelist-small:Vokey 52* 
Putter: :ping-small: Sigma G Kushin .
Ball: Various: :titelist-small: AVX, :bridgestone-small: B X, and currently testing the Vice Pro + Neon just for fun

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8 minutes ago, The 19th Hole said:

 

Keep in mind that in the last 50 years courses have made the players basically play an extra hole. In 1970 Augusta was 6,980 yards. Now it is 7,435. That 455 yards longer should make scores higher, but they are still shooting better scores that in the past. Thats pretty good. If you take the 3-4 shots those extra 455 yards should take, and add them to your ~5 strokes better now it is more like 9 stokes better. Think about that. To make the cut you generally have to be within 10 strokes of the lead. Barely makes it. 

 

 

Course length has been diminished by many factors including athleticism, so when you compare apples to apples, nothing has really changed with golf....so technology has improved....health has improved,  and with that...courses are getting longer.....i mean, back in the day, PGA players were using pieces of wood and scoring in the 60's..... IMO, golfers were better in the 70's and 80's due to their shot making abilities with inferior equipment....it would be a great experiment to give todays pros all the equipment from those decades and see how they do.....let them tee off from further up to account for the length....that would be fun... no disputing your take on length...

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33 minutes ago, Tsecor said:

Course length has been diminished by many factors including athleticism, so when you compare apples to apples, nothing has really changed with golf....so technology has improved....health has improved,  and with that...courses are getting longer.....i mean, back in the day, PGA players were using pieces of wood and scoring in the 60's..... IMO, golfers were better in the 70's and 80's due to their shot making abilities with inferior equipment....it would be a great experiment to give todays pros all the equipment from those decades and see how they do.....let them tee off from further up to account for the length....that would be fun... no disputing your take on length...

Now that is a turni I would like to watch!!


Driver: :taylormade-small: M5 9.5* head set to 8* loft 3*open, weights set slightly lower Launch and fade bias
3 wood: :taylormade-small: M1 13.5* Head set open w/ Fade bias weights. 
Irons: :ping-small: I-Blades PW-3i, 2* up standard length.
Wedges: :ping-small:Glide 1.0 TS 60*, :ping-small: Glide 2.0 56 ES, :titelist-small:Vokey 52* 
Putter: :ping-small: Sigma G Kushin .
Ball: Various: :titelist-small: AVX, :bridgestone-small: B X, and currently testing the Vice Pro + Neon just for fun

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