Planned 2030 Golf Ball Rollback

[Another Steve]

I can remember similar gnashing of teeth and rending of garments when they “standardized” the ball size by banning the smaller euro ball. We all got over it and moved on.  I can remember (similar reactions) when they changed the distance test and first came up with COR and talked about “reining in the driver  tech”. “The sky is falling, the sky is falling! You’re taking away my (amateurs) distance and it’s gonna ruin the game for everyone”!!!!  Quite frankly, we will all adapt and move on. It is a fact of life that our skills and strength will diminish as we age and we look to technology to limit that decline. We also resent not being able to take advantage of every available option to slow our decline.

Like some of you, I have played persimmon, laminated, and all the iterations of “metal woods”, and now have metal/carbon combo head. I have gained 100 pounds and lost lots of Flexibility and 15mph of swing speed since 1990’s when I was an uncontrolled 125mph. Have I lost distance? Duh - Yes, but it’s more noticed in my irons than driver IMHO due to ball and driver tech.  Can I get some of it back by actually getting a little healthier and more flexible….. yes. Have I adapted my game to account for my fatness and lost distance? Yes. Do I enjoy the game a little less now that I am a couple clubs shorter that I was  - Yes, but I am adapting. It hurts the ego a bit to no longer be that guy that gets the oohs and ahhs after crushing the driver and carrying 30 yards past where their balls stopped rolling…. To be playing a ~100-120 yard 2nd shots into a 400+ yard par 4’s and 150 or so into par 5’s….

Truth be told, the USGA and R&A have been concerned with technology advancements affecting the game for as long as I can remember. like it or not it is their job to protect the integrity of the game as they see fit. Honestly , 95% of golfers may say they follow the rules of golf but truly consider them as guidelines that are loosely followed until they get in the way of their enjoyment of a round.
 

To some, the advancement of technology “takes some of the skill and strategy out of the game” to others the technology “helps make the game easier/more enjoyable”. Where you fall in the rollback discussion likely depends on which of those statement apply to you. 

[GolfSpy_APH]

9 minutes ago, PMookie said:

When does someone need a handicap??? For competition. If one never competes, which is the overwhelming number golfers in the WORLD, then why do they need to play legal balls?

Just going to point out that many places here in Europe golfers must have an official handicap to play. Period. There are some courses that are truly open to any, but they are few and far between. 

You get a handicap through a course, learning the rules of the game, includes some lessons and practice rounds with a pro who will then assign your starting handicap based in scores.

[Preeway]

13 minutes ago, PMookie said:

When does someone need a handicap??? For competition. If one never competes, which is the overwhelming number golfers in the WORLD, then why do they need to play legal balls?

I can’t speak the type of golf you play but I used my handicap many times last year. And none of them were to play in a sanctioned tournament. It was either for my recreational men’s league or for when playing with friends and setting up side games. Handicaps get used a lot more than you probably realize.

 

13 minutes ago, PMookie said:

When does someone need a handicap??? For competition. If one never competes, which is the overwhelming number golfers in the WORLD, then why do they need to play legal balls?

I can’t speak the type of golf you play but I used my handicap many times last year. And none of them were to play in a sanctioned tournament. It was either for my recreational men’s league or for when playing with friends and setting up side games. Handicaps get used a lot more than you probably realize.

 

[Preeway]

I can’t speak the type of golf you play but I used my handicap many times last year. And none of them were to play in a sanctioned tournament. It was either for my recreational men’s league or for when playing with friends and setting up side games. Handicaps get used a lot more than you probably realize.

Edited December 23, 2023 by Preeway

[Preeway]

Sorry for the double/triple post. The pop up ads have made it harder to type into the field box lately causing some odds glitches. 

[CFreddie]

10 minutes ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

Just going to point out that many places here in Europe golfers must have an official handicap to play. Period. There are some courses that are truly open to any, but they are few and far between. 

You get a handicap through a course, learning the rules of the game, includes some lessons and practice rounds with a pro who will then assign your starting handicap based in scores.

Funny you mention this Jamie - my wife and I are starting preliminary plans for a trip to Scotland in 2025 (for my 40th). Most, if not all, of the courses we plan to visit require a handicap for visitors (and in some instances, must be under a certain number), which has expedited her lesson plan for learning / playing golf. 

[GolfSpy_APH]

2 minutes ago, CFreddie said:

Funny you mention this Jamie - my wife and I are starting preliminary plans for a trip to Scotland in 2025 (for my 40th). Most, if not all, of the courses we plan to visit require a handicap for visitors (and in some instances, must be under a certain number), which has expedited her lesson plan for learning / playing golf. 

This isn't really in topic... But here when you see the tee sheet you also see names (if they choose) but also handicaps beside all players and names. 

Anyway, as did rollback I have nothing more to add then what I said during the pages in the 60s.

[Shapotomous]

11 minutes ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

Just going to point out that many places here in Europe golfers must have an official handicap to play. Period. There are some courses that are truly open to any, but they are few and far between. 

You get a handicap through a course, learning the rules of the game, includes some lessons and practice rounds with a pro who will then assign your starting handicap based in scores.

I have been told by a few friends from Ireland the courses are pretty stern about what tees you are allowed to play from based on your ability / handicap.  I dont know if it just their home courses or if that is widespread.  I definitely like that aspect of EuroGolf! 

But being without an official handicap i guess i can pass on my return trip to Ireland since i wont be able to play.

[CFreddie]

Agreed - apologies for getting a little off topic

[fixyurdivot]

12 minutes ago, PMookie said:

When does someone need a handicap??? For competition. If one never competes, which is the overwhelming number golfers in the WORLD, then why do they need to play legal balls?

Spot on.  Also, there are many competition leagues that will likely allow use of current spec balls.  Just another 'local rule".  I suppose were the ball mfg.'s to end production of non rollback balls everyone would eventually have to change.  Could be a huge black market for pre rollback, non-neutered balls.

 

4 hours ago, funkyjudge said:

In short, advances in golf equipment is not where the problems lie., certainly not at the amateur golfer level. The fact that the USGA and R&A to a lesser degree, continue to approach the perceived "distance problem" by placing restriction after restriction on golf equipment is where I have a deep and enduring problem with these governing bodies.

Also spot on.  Completely ignored is the significant shift in tour player physique in the last couple of decades and the technology/training employed to improve swing and ball striking performance.  Since they have no way to control this (thus far anyway ), they choose to remove what amounts to be a cosmetic mole by removing an enitre appendage.

The USGA and R&A are indeed out of touch with the amateurs they represent. This is an opportune time to let them hear from us that their decision stinks.

[silver & black]

1 hour ago, PMookie said:

When does someone need a handicap??? For competition. If one never competes, which is the overwhelming number golfers in the WORLD, then why do they need to play legal balls?

I agree, but that wasn't the question?

[fixyurdivot]

34 minutes ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

Just going to point out that many places here in Europe golfers must have an official handicap to play. Period. There are some courses that are truly open to any, but they are few and far between. 

You get a handicap through a course, learning the rules of the game, includes some lessons and practice rounds with a pro who will then assign your starting handicap based in scores.

You shared this either earlier in this thread or another thread... and each time I read it, I simply cannot believe it.  What is the reason for requiring a handicap as a requirement just to play on a course?  I can understand the logic in wanting players to know the basic rules of the game and course stewardship rules, but the handicap seems odd.  

I get that many courses are privately owned, but that certainly comes across as an elitist, stuffed shirt, hi-brow country club feel... something often cited by people as a negative in how they view golf.  

 

 

[GolfSpy_APH]

9 minutes ago, fixyurdivot said:

You shared this either earlier in this thread or another thread... and each time I read it, I simply cannot believe it.  What is the reason for requiring a handicap as a requirement just to play on a course?  I can understand the logic in wanting players to know the basic rules of the game and course stewardship rules, but the handicap seems odd.  

I get that many courses are privately owned, but that certainly comes across as an elitist, stuffed shirt, hi-brow country club feel... something often cited by people as a negative in how they view golf.  

 

 

So ppl are using conforming golf balls

[funkyjudge]

58 minutes ago, Preeway said:

Sorry for the double/triple post. The pop up ads have made it harder to type into the field box lately causing some odds glitches. 

That's a fact!

[fixyurdivot]

11 minutes ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

So ppl are using conforming golf balls

You jest now but just wait until they come after excessive club face patina .

[GolfSpy_APH]

2 minutes ago, fixyurdivot said:

You jest now but just wait until they come after excessive club face patina .

Those are actually cleaned up and wall hangers now. I have a new project!

[funkyjudge]

5 hours ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

Just going to point out that many places here in Europe golfers must have an official handicap to play. Period. There are some courses that are truly open to any, but they are few and far between. 

You get a handicap through a course, learning the rules of the game, includes some lessons and practice rounds with a pro who will then assign your starting handicap based in scores.

I know all of this, as I play golf in England and Scotland at least every couple of years.  There are ways to get a handicap without joining the USGA.  I currently maintain my GHIN Handicap as part of my "membership" in the Golf Association at an area municipal golf course (a rather upscale "muni" at that).  However, I do not even have to do that to maintain a GHIN Handicap Index, as a close friend and frequent playing partner of mine, who is also the captain of my statewide senior travel team, has a "golf club without property" (he's also a retired high school golf coach, and a Senior USGA Course Rater).  He set up this golf club without property specifically for the benefit of players who want to maintain an official handicap and be a member of a "golf club".   I suspect that I will be joining his Pineville Golf Club in the next few years, so that I can continue to have an official handicap which will allow me to play at courses that require a handicap, as my participation in my current Golf Association does not warrant the annual dues that I pay to be a member.. 

Of course, at the golf courses that I have played in England and Scotland, I came close to exceeding the maximum allowable handicap index last year when I played four Open Championship courses. My handicap index had ballooned to nearly 17 due to illness and injuries that I had suffered from 2019 through 2021, and my adjusted handicap on these Open Championship courses was 19 - 20 at a couple of them, which put me right at their stated handicap limits.  Luckily, I have dropped back to a 14-something handicap and hope to keep it there (nowhere near the single-digit 'cap that I played to from the late 1980s through about 2002, when my index hit double digits for the first time since my first couple years of taking up the game of golf). 

I don't plan on entirely staying away from golf courses and events where an official "sanctioned" handicap index is required, so I'll be maintaining a handicap, and in any rounds that I play that are posted for handicap purposes, I will play by ALL of the rules, including those pertaining to equipment ... even the golf ball.  I already do not post the scores of rounds that I play on the senior travel league, because there are "gimmies" and very liberal drop rules, including allowing golfers to drop a ball near where it is agreed that their shot crossed the OB margins, with the option of taking a 1 or 2 stroke penalty based on where that drop is taken. If I posted these scores, I would be "cheating the system".  I would also have a handicap index that is several strokes lower than my current GHIN handicap index, but that would just not be right. My 14.4 Index is based only on rounds where ALL of the Rules of Golf are followed to the letter, which is also why my scoring history usually looks like I only play 30 or so rounds of golf per year, when I actually play about twice that many -- much more than twice that many, if you include all of the 9-hole rounds that I play in recreational leagues that have very liberal "league rules" and "gimmie" putts .... and where ny handicap is almost always between 4 and 6.

Edited December 24, 2023 by funkyjudge

[DaveP043]

1 hour ago, fixyurdivot said:

I get that many courses are privately owned, but that certainly comes across as an elitist, stuffed shirt, hi-brow country club feel... something often cited by people as a negative in how they view golf.  

In at least some of those countries, you're not allowed to simply post your score for handicap, it MUST be attested.  Many US golfers hate that idea as well, seem to hate the idea of any kind of formal oversight, but it significantly decreases the opportunity to intentionally sandbag handicaps.  

[RickyBobby_PR]

10 hours ago, silver & black said:

Contentious? Hmmm.... maybe it's just me, but I think this has been/is a fantastic discussion between a lot of really cool, pasionite, level headed members that have shown a lot of respect for each other in over 100 pages. Sometimes things get said in a way that may seem contentious, but I think everyone is just trying to get their point across, and this being the internet with no way to see facial expressions or hear voice inflections, things can sometimes seem to be contentious when they really aren't.

MGS has the best forum and members on the net, as far as golf is concerned.

Agree. Guess people see disagreement differently. Can’t please them all

[RickyBobby_PR]

9 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

I simply believe that this change is a small ripple, all of the "crying and gnashing of teeth" overstates the impact.  I know for certain that I'll enjoy golf, and I believe that after a very short adjustment period nearly all golfers will still enjoy golf.  Heck, it happens every year when the weather turns cold, I lose some distance.  It doesn't hurt my enjoyment, its not a "negative" in my eyes.  Sure, we'll remember with great fondness the "old ball that went for miles", and we'll exaggerate the distance we lost, but its still going to be golf, and fun.  

Unlike many others, I do believe the Ruling Bodies have the future of the game of golf in mind.  I'm not going to claim this is the right choice, but I believe their motivation.  They knew this was going to be unpopular, and chose to make a really difficult choice that they believe is in the long-term interests of the game.  I'm not going to debate the merits of their choice, I don't think there's a single new bit of data or reasoning to add, nobody will change their mind.  And I'm probably not going to change the mind of those who look at the USGA (they usually leave out the R&A) as arrogant, elitist, dictatorial, antiquated, I've been reading those types of opinions for years.  

Show me data that shows that this is a "fact".  That's exactly the tactic you've taken when folks say distance increases are a negative thing.  "Negative" is a subjective opinion, its NOT a fact, although facts are involved in formulating the opinion.  And even if a majority of players share the same opinion, that doesn't make it a fact.  Sure you can show data that suggests that distance among amateurs isn't out of control, but to say a change in either direction is "negative" is an opinion.  

Not only is not out of control the data showing the distances amateurs hit it has been provided in this thread and can be found by doing searches not only on the forum but online. USGA stated it wasn’t so and for years with the tee it forward program proved it’s not an issue. Their issue is with the elite amateur that will eventually become pro or continue to play at high level amateur status. They don’t like the way this game is played and because they can’t determine at what level or under what organizations to implement a change that only affects that group including the pros they choose to make it universal.

Their data states there will be a loss of distance for everyone so it’s a fact that everyone will suffer some loss. 3-5 years throughout the bag is a negative for the slower golfer who is going to have to play longer clubs into par 4s and 5s along with tee shots into or 3s. Even more so for the amateur who is already on the most forward tee 

Disagreeing with these facts doesn’t make them not facts.

[RickyBobby_PR]

8 hours ago, PMookie said:

Haven’t read much of this lately, but if the rollback will hit us golfers then golf ball manufacturers will make a mint off unregulated balls in the marketplace. The only time one would have to play a “legal” ball is in competition and so few golfers ever play in tournaments. Yeah, they could charge double per dozen and sell out each year if this isn’t reversed by 2030.

Doubt it. They could have sold the old groove clubs every year since the initial ruling but they haven’t. There isn’t a market for non compliant equipment. They will stop making current balls somewhere between 2025 and 2027

[RickyBobby_PR]

3 hours ago, PMookie said:

When does someone need a handicap??? For competition. If one never competes, which is the overwhelming number golfers in the WORLD, then why do they need to play legal balls?

They don’t but people want to play the same equipment as the pros. There are various nonconforming clubs on the market and they aren’t selling a lot of them. Its one of the reasons bifurcation isn’t good for the game

[RickyBobby_PR]

3 hours ago, Another Steve said:

I can remember similar gnashing of teeth and rending of garments when they “standardized” the ball size by banning the smaller euro ball. We all got over it and moved on.  I can remember (similar reactions) when they changed the distance test and first came up with COR and talked about “reining in the driver  tech”. “The sky is falling, the sky is falling! You’re taking away my (amateurs) distance and it’s gonna ruin the game for everyone”!!!!  Quite frankly, we will all adapt and move on. It is a fact of life that our skills and strength will diminish as we age and we look to technology to limit that decline. We also resent not being able to take advantage of every available option to slow our decline.

Like some of you, I have played persimmon, laminated, and all the iterations of “metal woods”, and now have metal/carbon combo head. I have gained 100 pounds and lost lots of Flexibility and 15mph of swing speed since 1990’s when I was an uncontrolled 125mph. Have I lost distance? Duh - Yes, but it’s more noticed in my irons than driver IMHO due to ball and driver tech.  Can I get some of it back by actually getting a little healthier and more flexible….. yes. Have I adapted my game to account for my fatness and lost distance? Yes. Do I enjoy the game a little less now that I am a couple clubs shorter that I was  - Yes, but I am adapting. It hurts the ego a bit to no longer be that guy that gets the oohs and ahhs after crushing the driver and carrying 30 yards past where their balls stopped rolling…. To be playing a ~100-120 yard 2nd shots into a 400+ yard par 4’s and 150 or so into par 5’s….

Truth be told, the USGA and R&A have been concerned with technology advancements affecting the game for as long as I can remember. like it or not it is their job to protect the integrity of the game as they see fit. Honestly , 95% of golfers may say they follow the rules of golf but truly consider them as guidelines that are loosely followed until they get in the way of their enjoyment of a round.
 

To some, the advancement of technology “takes some of the skill and strategy out of the game” to others the technology “helps make the game easier/more enjoyable”. Where you fall in the rollback discussion likely depends on which of those statement apply to you. 

The difference is they are trying to put the toothpaste back in the tube to suit their desired method for how golf should be played. We have had the same ball ods for more along time, the current ball has been on the market since 2000 when the Prov1 came out, the current driver size has been the standard since 2003 and the current CT test the standard since 2004. They had the chance in 2003-2005 to do something about the explosion in distance but choose not too. They could have set the driver size at 300ish cc or anywhere under 460 because nobody was even remotely close to 460 when they made the decision.

The previous concerns came when the change in distance was’t that great. The average distance gains in the 80s are the same as they are since the early 2000s. Yet they didn’t try to rollback the game in the 80s. The ruling bodies have a terrible foresight of issues and some think they should still be trusted with this move

[PMookie]

4 hours ago, fixyurdivot said:

Spot on.  Also, there are many competition leagues that will likely allow use of current spec balls.  Just another 'local rule".  I suppose were the ball mfg.'s to end production of non rollback balls everyone would eventually have to change.  Could be a huge black market for pre rollback, non-neutered balls.

 

Also spot on.  Completely ignored is the significant shift in tour player physique in the last couple of decades and the technology/training employed to improve swing and ball striking performance.  Since they have no way to control this (thus far anyway ), they choose to remove what amounts to be a cosmetic mole by removing an enitre appendage.

The USGA and R&A are indeed out of touch with the amateurs they represent. This is an opportune time to let them hear from us that their decision stinks.

Precisely my point! Everyone’s getting wrapped around the axel about a handicap and rules, good gracious, people are going to want “illegal” balls. Manufacturers will make a mint, or like you say, there will be a black market for them. 

[PMookie]

1 hour ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Doubt it. They could have sold the old groove clubs every year since the initial ruling but they haven’t. There isn’t a market for non compliant equipment. They will stop making current balls somewhere between 2025 and 2027

I say there will be, but it’s a guess like anyone else… Literally 99% of golfers don’t need a rolled-back ball and it will be local rule, so my thinking is that they’ll keep manufacturing. No one knows for sure…

[PMookie]

4 hours ago, Preeway said:

I can’t speak the type of golf you play but I used my handicap many times last year. And none of them were to play in a sanctioned tournament. It was either for my recreational men’s league or for when playing with friends and setting up side games. Handicaps get used a lot more than you probably realize.

 

I can’t speak the type of golf you play but I used my handicap many times last year. And none of them were to play in a sanctioned tournament. It was either for my recreational men’s league or for when playing with friends and setting up side games. Handicaps get used a lot more than you probably realize.

 

Yep, how we do it too… My point really has zero to do with handicaps, sanctioned events, etc, it’s just saying that 99% of golfers don’t need to use a rolled back ball, so there will still be a very large market for what we use now. Purely opinion…

[GaDawg]

5 hours ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

Just going to point out that many places here in Europe golfers must have an official handicap to play. Period. There are some courses that are truly open to any, but they are few and far between. 

You get a handicap through a course, learning the rules of the game, includes some lessons and practice rounds with a pro who will then assign your starting handicap based in scores.

I wish we had something similar to this system in the states. In my opinion, a lot of golfers in the states don't respect the game or rules as much as golfers in Europe and some other countries. From what I have seen and heard on my couple of trips to Scotland and Ireland, match play is played a lot there by amateurs and you very rarely see that type golf played in the states.

Sorry for getting off topic.

Edited December 24, 2023 by GaDawg

[DaveP043]

51 minutes ago, PMookie said:

I say there will be, but it’s a guess like anyone else… Literally 99% of golfers don’t need a rolled-back ball and it will be local rule, so my thinking is that they’ll keep manufacturing. No one knows for sure…

Beginning in 2030, balls not meeting the new criteria will no longer be allowed.  This won't be a local rule, it will be a rule of golf.  I just don't believe major manufacturers will continue us to make both conforming and nonconforming balls.  Look at how vehemently the opposed  bifurcation, at being forced to make two different balls.  They're pretty dang unlikely to do that voluntarily.

Edited December 24, 2023 by DaveP043

[storm319]

5 hours ago, Another Steve said:

I can remember similar gnashing of teeth and rending of garments when they “standardized” the ball size by banning the smaller euro ball. We all got over it and moved on.  I can remember (similar reactions) when they changed the distance test and first came up with COR and talked about “reining in the driver  tech”. “The sky is falling, the sky is falling! You’re taking away my (amateurs) distance and it’s gonna ruin the game for everyone”!!!!  Quite frankly, we will all adapt and move on. It is a fact of life that our skills and strength will diminish as we age and we look to technology to limit that decline. We also resent not being able to take advantage of every available option to slow our decline.

There is a big difference between additional regulation on something that has not been reached or widely adopted  vs changes to an existing regulation that will deem equipment non-conforming that has been perfectly legal for decades. 

Many feel that the rbs have not provided sufficient justification for this and that their goals have no realistic chance of being achieved with the current decision. Given the rbs poor track record with respect to equipment regulation (most relevantly being the 2010 groove rollback), I feel they have earned the criticism.

[storm319]

1 hour ago, PMookie said:

Precisely my point! Everyone’s getting wrapped around the axel about a handicap and rules, good gracious, people are going to want “illegal” balls. Manufacturers will make a mint, or like you say, there will be a black market for them. 

Why don’t tang of the big OEMs make non-conforming balls now? Or clubs for that matter (heck the pre-2010 groove spec has been legal for recreational play for the past 14 years and will continue to be for at least the next 4). The answer is because of extremely low retail demand.  

Also keep in mind that the majority of players would probably be looking for something that exceeds the new ODS condition, but still conforms to the old condition which will be hard to prove given that the USGA will likely stop testing under the current condition well before 2030, so people purchasing new balls may not have much of a choice. 

Ultimately non-conforming equipment has historically sold poorly at retail and there is really no evidence to suggest that this will be any different.