Heavy or Light Shaft? What’s your Goldilock’s weight and flex?

[DukeStKing]

So I committed fully to the “Otto Phlex” journey last year and part of this year with my driver and 3 wood. I still play an Otto Phlex shaft in my 3 wood, but since I got a Paradym driver I’ve gone back to a convention shaft- albeit lighter than shafts I’ve played in the past (it’s the Hzrdus Silver 50 gram). I’ve been in a real slump with it lately after having tremendous success in the beginning of the season. Part of the problem was that I played most of August with a defective screw and the head kept coming loose- Callaway sent me a new one no questions asked. So now I’m hitting it solid again, but my dispersion stinks, which of course is my fault, not the driver. My issues spraying the ball are related to tempo- when I keep it in check (slower) I have success. I have the best days when I hit my Otto Phlex shaft at the range to slow my tempo and then use the Hzrdus on the course- going from light to heavier seems to help. 

All of that as an intro to the topic I want to discuss. I’ve been reading and watching videos about how a heavier shaft will engage your big muscles more and could help keeping your temp in check. So now I’m thinking of experimenting in the opposite direction- going from a 50 gram to a 60 or 70 gram shaft. Some of the videos and data show that a heavier shaft can increase club head speed because you’re engaging the bigger muscles. But of course at some point there is the law of diminishing returns and too heavy could slow my swing speed down. My driver SS is around 100mph. How many people have had success going heavier? Did it help with tempo? Does anyone have a suggestion for a heavier shaft that doesn’t have super low torque and thus feel less boardy? I would like to try a heavier shaft that doesn’t feel like ribar- a Goldilocks shaft that is just the right weight but not too stiff. Looking forward to reading about other people’s experiences with equipment- not responses on how I need to take lessons or practice more… 
 

Edited September 20, 2023 by DukeStKing

[RickyBobby_PR]

Anywhere from 64-72g is what I’ve been fit into and play. I don’t worry about flex because it’s not something standard across the industry and it’s more important to look at the stiffness profile. Flex is only comparable in the same weight class and shaft line. It’s not even standard across the same manufacturer. Will use PX as an example. A stiff flex in the riptide shaft is going to be different than a stiff flex in the hzrdus black line.

For me it’s certain counterbalanced shafts or what would be a higher balance point that isn’t necessarily labeled counter balanced. Blue profiles have been where most of the non CB shafts have been for my swing. So shafts like AD DI, AD IZ, blueboard, av raw blue. Rogue white silver and black.

Getting the weight correct is the first step and then finding the stiffness profile that fits. 
 

Once you have a weight and profile determined you can then test flex in the shaft line to see if reg, stiff, x stiff results in any change 

[DukeStKing]

2 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Anywhere from 64-72g is what I’ve been fit into and play. I don’t worry about flex because it’s not something standard across the industry and it’s more important to look at the stiffness profile. Flex is only comparable in the same weight class and shaft line. It’s not even standard across the same manufacturer. Will use PX as an example. A stiff flex in the riptide shaft is going to be different than a stiff flex in the hzrdus black line.

For me it’s certain counterbalanced shafts or what would be a higher balance point that isn’t necessarily labeled counter balanced. Blue profiles have been where most of the non CB shafts have been for my swing. So shafts like AD DI, AD IZ, blueboard, av raw blue. Rogue white silver and black.

Getting the weight correct is the first step and then finding the stiffness profile that fits. 
 

Once you have a weight and profile determined you can then test flex in the shaft line to see if reg, stiff, x stiff results in any change 

What do you think of the theory that heavier shafts activate the bigger muscles and can help increase swing speed? Do you notice a difference when you go from 64 to 72? 

[RickyBobby_PR]

5 minutes ago, DukeStKing said:

What do you think of the theory that heavier shafts activate the bigger muscles and can help increase swing speed? Do you notice a difference when you go from 64 to 72? 

I’ve seen it work both with me and with others. It has an effect on the tempo/timing of the swing. For me the others where I’ve seen it work is because of the quick and/or aggressive transition. Think guys that pull the handle.

I’ve played the same shaft in 65g and 75g versions and noticed no difference in performance

 

 

[ctg44]

I have found that it is kind of all or nothing for me on shafts.  The only driver shaft with which I've had any consistency has been my Tensei White (older version) in the 70 gram Tour X stiff version.  I tried a 65 gram X stiff that came with my son's Epic Max LS and hated it because it wasn't tip-stiff enough.  His current Ventus Black Velocore 7X is too butt stiff for me and I end up pulling everything left because the shaft doesn't load right for my stupid quick tempo on the downswing.  

I recently found 2 Tensei White AV (80 gram X stiff) on Callaway Preowned.  While my 3 wood is a Titleist, I just swapped the adapters and have basically changed that from the most hated club in my bag to one of the most reliable.  I hit a high butter cut yesterday to 273 yards with it...and hit several other great shots.  My Callaway Super Hybrid (Mavrik era version) has been much more stable since the change too.

Note, if you need a new shaft or want to try something cheap, I can't recommend Callaway Preowned enough.  I paid less than $125 for both of my new 80 gram X stiff shafts, and a new one at that weight has an MSRP of at least $150.

[DukeStKing]

4 hours ago, ctg44 said:

I have found that it is kind of all or nothing for me on shafts.  The only driver shaft with which I've had any consistency has been my Tensei White (older version) in the 70 gram Tour X stiff version.  I tried a 65 gram X stiff that came with my son's Epic Max LS and hated it because it wasn't tip-stiff enough.  His current Ventus Black Velocore 7X is too butt stiff for me and I end up pulling everything left because the shaft doesn't load right for my stupid quick tempo on the downswing.  

I recently found 2 Tensei White AV (80 gram X stiff) on Callaway Preowned.  While my 3 wood is a Titleist, I just swapped the adapters and have basically changed that from the most hated club in my bag to one of the most reliable.  I hit a high butter cut yesterday to 273 yards with it...and hit several other great shots.  My Callaway Super Hybrid (Mavrik era version) has been much more stable since the change too.

Note, if you need a new shaft or want to try something cheap, I can't recommend Callaway Preowned enough.  I paid less than $125 for both of my new 80 gram X stiff shafts, and a new one at that weight has an MSRP of at least $150.

Brother- I’m with ya! I just ordered a Graphite Design AD UB-6 for $146 (they had 20% off, free shipping and I had $14 worth of points). 
I figured 13 grams of additional weight to try out the “activate large muscles theory” and a stiff tip will give me a very different profile from the Hzrdus Silver 50-S. We’ll see…

 

[DukeStKing]

I got a Graphite Design AD UB Tour 6S off of CPO and took it to the range today. My first impression was very pleasing and promising. I was switching it out with the standard Hzrdus Silver 50S and the heavier GD AD UB felt much better. It was easier to feel where the club was at every point of the swing. The AD UB had a real nice release - felt very powerful. I think the more stout (less torque, stiffer tip and heavier weight) helped me with my misses. I had only one snap hook with the AD UB. Looking forward to putting it in play this week on the course. 

[GolfSpy_APH]

Irons I would have to say that I really like the 110 Project X IO shafts that I am in right now. Good feel, consistency and dont feel like the wear me down over the course of a round. As for driver... still very TBD. I am trying several and eventually will find what works, however for now it seems to be in the 65 rangeish....

[Josh Parker]

Currently playing KBS Tour V 110s in my irons and really like them.  I prefer heavier in my wedges but it's more for feel.  Driver.... well currently have 60 but with the issues I'm having there, I am debating trying both heavier and lighter.  

[DukeStKing]

So I may be bumping my own thread as this may turn into a review of the Graphite Design AD UB Tour. It’s possible that the weight change is what did it, but I had great results on the course. I hit 11/14 fairways with only one bad miss because of a bad swing. The weight really helps to feel where the club is during the swing, but the GD shaft just feels so powerful- no other way to describe it. Unfortunately the conditions were tough off the tee - the course is still so soggy after all the rain we got in NJ so I could only judge distances based on carry. I was getting mostly 230’s to 240’s and a couple of 250’s with beautiful straight or slight draw shot shape. (My big miss was a slice that was the result of me getting too confident and losing concentration after hitting so many good drives.) I think I’ve found the perfect combo of head and shaft for me- Paradym and GD HD-UB 6S… the colors match nicely too, which is nice. 

Edited October 2, 2023 by DukeStKing

[DukeStKing]

Another round hitting 12/14 fairways with the Graphite Design Tour AD UB 6 in my Paradym. Again, I can’t say it’s the increased weight, but I was really enjoying consistent baby draws with the GD shaft. I pushed one and hooked one on the day, but they were not huge misses. I also checked my swing speed with the 60 gram GD vs the 50 gram Hzrdus and was 2mph faster with the heavier shaft. So, I’m really not seeing the benefit of a lighter shaft when it comes to swing speed. I have a feeling that the weight may help my tempo and the GD is a better fit for my swing. 

[cnosil]

9 hours ago, DukeStKing said:

. I also checked my swing speed with the 60 gram GD vs the 50 gram Hzrdus and was 2mph faster with the heavier shaft. So, I’m really not seeing the benefit of a lighter shaft when it comes to swing speed. I have a feeling that the weight may help my tempo and the GD is a better fit for my swing. 

I think your last statement is correct.  Lighter does not always translate to faster.   When we swing the club the weight and feel influence how we swing and deliver the club.  When looking at weight we probably also  need to compare the 1st tee shot swing speed versus the 18th hole swing speed to see how tired you get over the round.  

[RickyBobby_PR]

10 hours ago, DukeStKing said:

So, I’m really not seeing the benefit of a lighter shaft when it comes to swing speed. I have a feeling that the weight may help my tempo and the GD is a better fit for my swing. 

For some lighter shafts and overall weight can cause the golfer to swing lower.

As for the difference it could be the weight, it could be the stiffness profile of the GD shaft vs that of the hzrdus. I haven’t seen the EI profile of the hzrdus silver but the hzrdus line of shafts typically have a stiffer profile compared to other shafts with similar profiles.
 

The GD shaft is very close to a blue profile and slightly stiffer throughout the shaft than the ad di. The hzrdus silver is supposedly a mid/mid shaft (doesn’t really mean anything because it’s just a generic description and some people can launch the ball high or spin it high high (low on the face or heel side contact).

With all that said whether it’s the profile, the weight or both you have a shaft and head combo that work for you and you got a steal on the shaft

[DukeStKing]

Comparing the Hzrdus and the GD is definitely not apples to apples. I will say before I ordered the AD UB from Callaway Pre-Owned, I ordered and returned a 50 gram AD HD, which I hit similarly to the Hzrdus and thus took advantage of Callaway’s generous return policy and sent it back for the UB. I was basically going to keep doing that until I got one that fit me better - didn’t think it would happen on the second try. On a whim (after reading that you could actually increase swing speed with a heavier shaft by engaging the bigger muscles), I went up 10 grams in the UB. I wanted to add this for anyone thinking of fitting themselves by taking advantage of CPO’s wonderful return policy. Worked for me. The great thing is that I got the UB for cheaper than HD. And the UB is prettier… because that of course is what really matters.

[troy1160]

I find myself trying heavier shafts as well. I wonder if strength has anything to do with it also, at 6'5" and 270 I find it easier to keep heavier shafts on plane, engaging the big muscles, lighter shafts seem to get yanked around easier. Currently play 60 gram driver and 70 gram fairway and 105 irons. Looking to try a 70 gram driver and 80 gram fairway shafts.

[Swood1994]

Last season when I got fitted for my paradym I switched from a 65g Tensei blue  in my Sim 2 to a 70g ventus blue in the paradym, both were stiff flex. With the lighter driver heads of today I typically struggle with “losing” the club head at the top of my swing and the heavier shaft helped to fix that. 

Profile does come into play though because I have since switch to a ventus black 6s. The stiffer overall profile of the black allowed me to go back to a lighter shaft.

[HikingMike]

Great topic. Even though the thread was started in September, I have been thinking about shaft weight lately too. Since it's revived, I'll chime in.

At the beginning of this season I've switched from a Ping G20 with a TFC 169 D regular flex shaft (no idea on weight), to a Ping G400 LST with a Ping Tour 65g stiff shaft. I should've had a stiff shaft already probably. I may have been half otto-phlexing it all this time with the G20. My driver clubhead speed is around 108 going by a couple fittings this winter. My swing is pretty smooth. The fitters worked on lowering my ball flight and spin after they saw my G20 hits.

Anyway, I hit the new setup well. Now after the fitting, a range session, and 4 rounds, I have found my groove with it. I'm comfortable and confident with a consistent draw which is my normal shot. And I'm finding the middle of the face pretty well lately.

But when I first hit it, it felt heavier and like it was more beastly to swing. Not awkward, just more. I probably have the timing down better now, and it feels normal. Thinking back to my G20 regular flex setup, what you guys are saying makes sense - it was less to swing and I maybe didn't have full muscle activation. I could be slightly arm-y, and that led to inconsistency problems. This is speculation, and the flex has something to do with that too... and the swing weight which I have no idea about. Looks like the G20 has a D3 swing weight in the old MGS review, and I don't know for the G400 LST.

I did check the head weights also. The G20 was 204g and the G400 LST is 208g head weight.

This is coming from someone that doesn't change setups very often. So I may have been less in tune with what worked naturally for me. I was self-adjusted to the G20 setup. With the recent change, I gained a bit of a feel for that. I'm also curious how things would play out with a lighter shaft of similar stiffness. I've found the group of originally offered stiff shafts for the G400 includes some lighter and heavier, and some higher and lower trajectory. The Ping Tour 65 is basically the middle option among the stiff flex ones. The Alta CB looks like the only original stiff option that's lighter. The Ping Tour 75 is of course the heavier one, and I don't think I need to go heavier. But I like where I am with the Ping Tour 65, and it could be Goldilocks for me.

Ping G20 MGS article

Ping G400 MGS article

Edited Friday at 04:03 PM by HikingMike
added links

[BreakfastBall15]

My current gamer is a 65g x flex. I was fired for it and tested out everything from 50 to 80 grams in stiff and extra stiff. I ended up with an “Otto phlex” experience when I rented clubs on vacation last month. Rental clubs were a total random mixed bag of TaylorMade product cycles, shaft flex and materials. The driver had a 50g regular shaft. The range session and first few holes took some getting used to but after that I got the hang of the tempo and had a really solid driving round. Not sure if I could do the experiment long term though 

[JV23]

On 9/20/2023 at 8:42 PM, DukeStKing said:

What do you think of the theory that heavier shafts activate the bigger muscles and can help increase swing speed? Do you notice a difference when you go from 64 to 72? 

I've just had a 70g shaft delivered, haven't got down the range today but looking forward to seeing what happens

[DukeStKing]

Update: I changed drivers from the original Paradym to the PING G430 10k. I had a fitting for the the 10k at PGA SS and while I had a couple of bombs with the Alta, I also had a two way miss. Fitter put me in the Mitsubishi Kai Li 60- his theory was the 55 gram Alta was messing with my tempo and giving me the 2 way miss. So I got the Kai Li (which is closer to 67 grams) and I’ve played 3 rounds and multiple driving range sessions with it and I’m in love. I switched the adapter on my GD Tour AD UB 6 to PING and it can’t kick the Kai Li out of the bag. The swing weight is higher with the 10k than the Paradym as another factor, but I’ve already had 3 of my best driving rounds with the new driver. It’s been so fun to hit.