Effort is there.Just can’t get it

[Goober]

Anyone have a golf partner that works his tail off but can never improve?
 

One of my long term golf buddies (and close friend).Has been working at this game for the last 40 years.The best he can do is once in a while break 90.He has taken lessons from some great instructors as well.He works at the game diligently.Is a true student of the game as well.Very avid golfer who plays by the rules and has a great attitude and strives for improvements.No matter how much he drills his lessons on the range.He just can’t seem to get this game.His putting is his high point.Any shot that gets airborn is a complete mystery to him.Basically has a multiple way miss

he has the desire and love of the game.But recently he told me that after all his efforts frustration is setting in

what would you tell him?  

[Josh Parker]

I have known people like that as well.  

What would you say his biggest struggle is? 

Sometimes it could be he hasn't found the right coach that he clicks with.  He needs someone that can take his swing and make it work for him and not try to change it at this point.  40 years of habits/traits is a long run.  

 

[Rob Person]

After that long on the game, the only encouragement would be to tell him "GOLF " is just another 4 letter word that has many meanings.

There are some things that just can't be corrected. We all fall back to our original faulty swing or alignment issues at some point, no matter how much we break away from them through lessons, practice,  etc

[NM01]

Effort alone won’t cause improvement. There has to be proper practice along with doing the things that actually change a movement pattern.

We see lots of effort put in by lots of golfers, however they are either putting effort into the wrong thing, changing what they are working on or changing a feel (not going to work for anyone long term) over and over.

Many are addressing symptoms rather than causes. Of the person isn’t making slowwr swings and shorter swings to change their motor patterns the chances of any real improvement will be low.

as a friend I would encourage him to talk with his coach about his practice routine and ensure he’s actually doing things the right way. 

[cksurfdude]

13 hours ago, Goober said:

One of my long term golf buddies (and close friend). Has been working at this game for the last 40 years.

Wow... Question: do you know if your friend goes home and looks through YouTube and/or other online sources for "fixes" and "answers"?

If so then Tiger's advice applies - "stay the f*** off of YouTube"

If not, then .. hmmmm....

Maybe part of the problem is his mental game .. something that's helped me recently is to really internalize and work to implement that seemingly simple thing that we all say we "know", which is ..

• practice golf swing at the range and play the game of golf on the course

But in any case I wish him good luck!

[Goober]

10 hours ago, cksurfdude said:

Wow... Question: do you know if your friend goes home and looks through YouTube and/or other online sources for "fixes" and "answers"?

If so then Tiger's advice applies - "stay the f*** off of YouTube"

If not, then .. hmmmm....

Maybe part of the problem is his mental game .. something that's helped me recently is to really internalize and work to implement that seemingly simple thing that we all say we "know", which is ..

• practice golf swing at the range and play the game of golf on the course

But in any case I wish him good luck!

No, I assure you he doesn’t even do YouTube.He has been to a one teacher who even did a book and videos.Jim Hardy schools of golf.He is infatuated with that swing style.Sadly doesn’t know how to use his phone as a camera.But works on the drills relentlessly.Me and a few of his playing partners have been his eyes on the range.He is mid 70’s age wise, in great shape and smart as a whip.Its like after all these years of instruction still has not gotten him over that hump.You would enjoy a round of golf with him.Brings a smile and good attitude every outing

[NM01]

1 hour ago, Goober said:

Sadly doesn’t know how to use his phone as a camera.But works on the drills relentlessly

The not being able to use the phone means he can’t see what he’s doing.

Since he can’t see what he’s doing he can’t tell if he’s doing the drills right. Which is where effort doesn’t guarantee improvement. Based on seeing many swings on forums, instructor guided memberships and other groups the chances he’s doing the drills correctly are low. So he will continue to put in effort and make no progress 

[Shapotomous]

I am not sure what to tell ya other than finding an instructor that hits on a key issue he can understand and groove into his swing.

I know a guy kinda like that.  He loves to play but is awful with multiple misses and swing issues.  But his limited athletic coordination skills struggle to translate what he is told in a lesson to an actual swing.  He used to work with one coach for a while in lesson packages but has given up on those.  I think he is now going down the maze of you tube tips and has a million swing thoughts.

The last time we played we were on the range ahead of our tee time and he was hitting everything but the sweetspot.  He asked me to watch his backswing to make sure he was supinating his wrist.  I smiled and told him i didnt know what supinating was.  I suggested he take an 8i & simply try to visualize hitting the BACK of the ball with the CENTER of the clubface on a 1/2 swing and then see what happens on a real 1/2 swing. 

Like i expected his 1/2 swing feel was much longer but his contact and ball flight was much better for the rest of the range balls.  He was all excited and we went to the course and he immediately forgot about the simple 1/2 swing theory for the first drive and results were awful.  He recovered with two good shots using the 1/2 swing thought after the 50 yard worm burner iff the tee.

It was the same the rest of the day...full swing = horrible contact, 1/2 swing = good ball flight.  He lives in FL so i havent seen him for a while but he says his game is back to awful and also says he is trying to do the 1/2 swing when he remembers which i suspect is never.

[Preeway]

A couple things come to mind. First, at his age, there could be swing limitations caused by his body. Things like hip mobility and/or spine issues may cause poor technique but could be addressed though chiropractic or perhaps other modalities. It’s hard to tweak or improve swing flaws if you’re also fighting your body at the same time. 
Second, is putting in enough time practicing? Playing more than you practice will only lead you to reinforce old/bad habits rather than fix them. 
Third, he need to have his swing recorded during lessons so he can see what he looks like when he’s “doing it right” and then invest in a tripod or other method of holding his phone so he can record himself at the range. The more he gets accustomed seeing his swing he will likely also begin to feel the difference between the good and the bad swings. 
Last, when he does practice, make sure he has a purpose. Don’t go hit balls just to hit balls and think improvements will happen. He has to know what he wants to work on each time he goes to the practice range. 

[Beakbryce]

I have told a lot of people this. STOP keeping score. Golf can be about the journey if you let it. Somehow we have been bamboozled in to believing our score determines our worth and our improvement.  In your buddies case, the minute he can stop comparing his score to everyone else and himself, the sooner he can just remember a few good shots each round, the better off he will be. 

[Shapotomous]

4 minutes ago, Beakbryce said:

I have told a lot of people this. STOP keeping score. Golf can be about the journey if you let it. Somehow we have been bamboozled in to believing our score determines our worth and our improvement.  In your buddies case, the minute he can stop comparing his score to everyone else and himself, the sooner he can just remember a few good shots each round, the better off he will be. 

I had to do it....

 

 

[mksurfs68]

First, a  person has to be willing to change. I have a friend who could gain 20+ yards easily. But, he won't change. But "Rotaryswing.com" teaches the simplest swings taken from the GOATS, & it's inexpensive. Chuck Quinton just loves helping people & has come up with a very learnable, simple, body-safe golf swing.      

[cksurfdude]

On 5/26/2024 at 6:20 AM, Goober said:

Jim Hardy schools of golf. He is infatuated with that swing style.

I don't know anything about that instructor nor his swing style, but .. just throwing this thought out there .. it could be possible that particular method just does not suit your friend's body type, mobility range, innate movement tendencies, whatever ...

 

[Goober]

11 hours ago, cksurfdude said:

I don't know anything about that instructor nor his swing style, but .. just throwing this thought out there .. it could be possible that particular method just does not suit your friend's body type, mobility range, innate movement tendencies, whatever ...

 

It could be anything really.But I think im going to buy him a little camera just meant for golf and simple to use.One thing I can never fault him for is determination and drive.Of all the golfers I played with these last 45 years.His strive to improve is heads and tails above anyone else.Another guy who knows him told me he would’ve quit by now if he was in shoes.Really rude to say imho, but some honesty in it as well.I keep on telling him feel isn’t real.And he always swings full speed and never does a drill in slow motion.Ive showed him on my video of his swing and with some tech i bought.What he says he is trying to do he isn’t.Im very kind about it.But at the same time I don’t want to ruin his spirit of improving 

[Goober]

19 hours ago, Beakbryce said:

I have told a lot of people this. STOP keeping score. Golf can be about the journey if you let it. Somehow we have been bamboozled in to believing our score determines our worth and our improvement.  In your buddies case, the minute he can stop comparing his score to everyone else and himself, the sooner he can just remember a few good shots each round, the better off he will be. 

He plays 5 days a week in a morning men’s club.Ive also told him that as well.Take a break of the group and go out and work on no score but focus on your lesson(s) with no pressure.His rank is always D player when picking our teams.. so when he goes out do solo for a while and be your own A player.Told him around 4-5pm on the weekdays he would have the whole place to himself.His wife sadly passed 15 years ago.So he doesn’t have any obligations of being home at a certain time.He is on the course 7 days a week, and plays 5-6 days.The other time is hours on the range… hours of hitting golf balls 

[cnosil]

40 minutes ago, Goober said:

The other time is hours on the range… hours of hitting golf balls 

Hitting balls and practicing are completely different things.   I hit balls all the time but my game doesn’t improve.   What is his practice plan and what skills is he working to improve?

[NM01]

45 minutes ago, Goober said:

He plays 5 days a week in a morning men’s club.Ive also told him that as well.Take a break of the group and go out and work on no score but focus on your lesson(s) with no pressure.His rank is always D player when picking our teams.. so when he goes out do solo for a while and be your own A player.Told him around 4-5pm on the weekdays he would have the whole place to himself.His wife sadly passed 15 years ago.So he doesn’t have any obligations of being home at a certain time.He is on the course 7 days a week, and plays 5-6 days.The other time is hours on the range… hours of hitting golf balls 

Unless his mindset changes he’s not going to get better no matter how much effort he puts in and the more effort he puts in the harder it will be to undo the bad habits.

even you buying him a camera that’s easy to use isn’t going to make any changes. 

[Beakbryce]

4 hours ago, Goober said:

He plays 5 days a week in a morning men’s club.Ive also told him that as well.Take a break of the group and go out and work on no score but focus on your lesson(s) with no pressure.His rank is always D player when picking our teams.. so when he goes out do solo for a while and be your own A player.Told him around 4-5pm on the weekdays he would have the whole place to himself.His wife sadly passed 15 years ago.So he doesn’t have any obligations of being home at a certain time.He is on the course 7 days a week, and plays 5-6 days.The other time is hours on the range… hours of hitting golf balls 

Hours hitting golf balls without a plan would seem to lack focus.

Maybe if he played the course on the practice range.  It also sounds like he isn't picking a target and seeing the shot. Play what ever he hits off #1, hit what would be a normal 2nd shot, etc. Focus on what the shot would look like based on the previous shot and where he thinks it left him. Needs to actually get behind the ball on the range, see that hole in his mind, and the aim point. Range is wide open so missing isn't end of the world.This keeps it from being I am going to hit 100 8 irons and go from there. As much as he plays, there is little value in repetitive swings without a plan. Maybe if one of his buddies went once in awhile to the range with him and he describes the shot he needs to hit and how he is going to do that to the buddy? No advice though. Just let him think and hit.

I have a hitting mat on my back porch. I don't hit a ball, just get in 20-30 swings on days I am not playing. I swing and "see" the ball flight, really good shots there! Positive reinforcement of what  I am doing. Maybe chip some wiffle balls. Again, no expectations. 

I don't know, maybe get him some of the new Bridgestones with the new line up, see shot, focus on green dot balls. Reorient the thinking on the course.

[Goober]

4 hours ago, cnosil said:

Hitting balls and practicing are completely different things.   I hit balls all the time but my game doesn’t improve.   What is his practice plan and what skills is he working to improve?

His main goals have always been getting ball in the air. And not hitting Fat, thin or top. He is 5-6 in the air 4 really bad out of 10 strikes.This sounds so basic or simple for many.But believe me, his misses Are extremely bad.Never played with anyone so inconsistent shot to shot.Than he goes in slumps where he would top or fat every ball.Its hard to watch, let alone having him be your partner in mens club events.Ive asked him what they thought of him at the clinics and lessons he attended.They told him they have seen way worse and stick to the plan.His last lesson was low point control and watching his shoulder tilts.

 

Edited May 28 by Goober

[cnosil]

3 hours ago, Goober said:

His main goals have always been getting ball in the air. And not hitting Fat, thin or top. He is 5-6 in the air 4 really bad out of 10 strikes.This sounds so basic or simple for many.But believe me, his misses Are extremely bad.Never played with anyone so inconsistent shot to shot.Than he goes in slumps where he would top or fat every ball.Its hard to watch, let alone having him be your partner in mens club events.Ive asked him what they thought of him at the clinics and lessons he attended.They told him they have seen way worse and stick to the plan.His last lesson was low point control and watching his shoulder tilts.

 

But hitting balls doesn't necessarily help with those issues.   You need to practice specific skills to improve lowpoint.  

[Goober]

43 minutes ago, cnosil said:

But hitting balls doesn't necessarily help with those issues.   You need to practice specific skills to improve lowpoint.  

I agree.Maybe I’m being too nice.But last time I talked to him.I told him to play this season teeing up the golf the whole round.No matter if in the fairway or rough.Have a goal of getting the ball in the air more time than ground balls.Just something to make the game more enjoyable for him 

[Goober]

Quick follow up. I filmed my friends swing on his phone. Uploaded the videos to Skillest for a lesson with Monte.Explained in the pre lesson in the chat area to Monte that he isn’t tech savvy. He did an awesome lesson that was addressed to me and him.As I will try and monitor what he is doing this summer.A great lesson really.Monte knows his stuff 

[Rob Person]

16 minutes ago, Goober said:

Quick follow up. I filmed my friends swing on his phone. Uploaded the videos to Skillest for a lesson with Monte.Explained in the pre lesson in the chat area to Monte that he isn’t tech savvy. He did an awesome lesson that was addressed to me and him.As I will try and monitor what he is doing this summer.A great lesson really.Monte knows his stuff 

Keep us posted!!! Hopefully he is receptive to the instruction!

[buckpillar]

@GooberI know its been 40yrs for your friend, sounds like he's thinking too much during the round and also worried about making par. This has worked in the past with a few of the golfers I gave lessons to, next time you play with him, tell don't keep score during the round, then after go back and review the round in his mind for each hole and write the score down, you will be surprised that it actually helps. 

Also if you can send me a short video of his swing from behind and side facing him, I'll be happy to take a look and offer some advice.

[buckpillar]

On 5/28/2024 at 8:59 AM, Goober said:

It could be anything really.But I think im going to buy him a little camera just meant for golf and simple to use.One thing I can never fault him for is determination and drive.Of all the golfers I played with these last 45 years.His strive to improve is heads and tails above anyone else.Another guy who knows him told me he would’ve quit by now if he was in shoes.Really rude to say imho, but some honesty in it as well.I keep on telling him feel isn’t real.And he always swings full speed and never does a drill in slow motion.Ive showed him on my video of his swing and with some tech i bought.What he says he is trying to do he isn’t.Im very kind about it.But at the same time I don’t want to ruin his spirit of improving 

Buy him this book also, it shows everything from start to finish, I review mine every year no matter what.

[Coulter]

Although the love of golf is a much newer thing to me I kind of feel the same way your friend does. I can’t seem to get away from 85-95 on the course. If 1 area of my game starts working right then another falls off. I had a great day driving today which has been killing me for most of my time golfing and my irons just fell off the wagon today. 
 

I walked 18 today by myself and I began to think about how everyone has their max potential. I realize if I have good days with one area on some rounds then vise versa that I could potentially put it all together but everyone hits the very best of their game at some point in life. Just my 2 cents while enjoying a beautiful day walking the course.

[cksurfdude]

On 5/28/2024 at 8:59 AM, Goober said:

But I think im going to buy him a little camera just meant for golf and simple to use. One thing I can never fault him for is determination and drive.

You're a good friend!! Hope it helps

Obviously show him how to line up the cam properly .. from what I understand (others with experience chime in if I'm wrong) it needs to be... (A) for DTL - literally straight back on the target line; and (B) Face On - 90 degrees straight out from the golfer. And for both at about mid-thigh high.

The important thing is no obtuse angles to the golfer that can skew the perspective.

[cnosil]

2 minutes ago, cksurfdude said:

You're a good friend!! Hope it helps

Obviously show him how to line up the cam properly .. from what I understand (others with experience chime in if I'm wrong) it needs to be... (A) for DTL - literally straight back on the target line; and (B) Face On - 90 degrees straight out from the golfer. And for both at about mid-thigh high.

 

 

Camera should be in line with the hands and hand height for both DTL and face on. 

https://v1sports.com/how-to-film-your-golf-swing/

[Goober]

We been working at this 3 days this week.And im really seeing why this game is so hard.Watching tops, thins, fats all sessions would really weigh on a guy.He has been following the online lesson plan pretty close.And trying as hard as he always does.I keep assuring him that when we play he will tee it up all over the course like he does the range.And I keep re assuring him it will get better and it’s just a recreational game.Many would’ve given up decades ago if they hit like him.Love his spirit though

[NM01]

9 minutes ago, Goober said:

We been working at this 3 days this week.And im really seeing why this game is so hard.Watching tops, thins, fats all sessions would really weigh on a guy.He has been following the online lesson plan pretty close.And trying as hard as he always does.I keep assuring him that when we play he will tee it up all over the course like he does the range.And I keep re assuring him it will get better and it’s just a recreational game.Many would’ve given up decades ago if they hit like him.Love his spirit though

When he is practicing the lesson plan how is he doing it?

How many swings doing whatever drill?

How many full swings?

At what speed is he doing the drills and does it match what’s prescribed in the lesson plan?