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Handicap Adjustment--Competition from different tees


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Our game got cancelled today due to rain and cold (wimps I say), so thought I'd relay a handicap issue that was recently raised in our weekly games.

 

A couple of guys have decided to play the blended white/forward tees.  It has suited both of their games quite well as they each have good short games and very modest length off the tee. 

 

The fellow who plays in the Tuesday/Friday games that I organize was using his course handicap for the blended tees as his handicap for our little games, which was only 1 stroke less than his HC from the white tees.  I pointed out to him the USGA rule on adjusting HCs when playing from different tees, which on our course would require an additional 3 stroke downward adjustment to his HC, but couldn't convince him of that.  He said since he plays most of his rounds from the blended tees, his lower scores from there already reflect the necessary adjustment.  Since our game is very casual and he only plays in it once a month or so, we never pushed the issue.

 

Recently, in the Saturday/Sunday game, which is quite a bit larger and more serious, the first fellow and another one play from the blended tees and have been doing quite well, with their teams usually in the money or winning.  I only play in this game about once every two months or so.  Hearing the bitching at one game I recently played in about the unfairness of the two guys playing from the blended tees, I pointed out the USGA rule to the organizers of that game.  Amazingly, neither of them, nor the tour staff pro they consulted, nor any of the other 70 members of the Saturday/Sunday group, knew of this rule.  

 

I gave them the links to the USGA rule, (https://www.usga.org/HandicapFAQ/handicap_answer.asp?FAQidx=6)  and also a very helpful USGA position paper on the subject (https://www.azgolf.org/images/uploads/usga_services/USGA_Position_Paper_3-5.pdf) and they finally have adopted the adjustment.  But boy, the two blended tee guys are really howling at the perceived injustice (total adjustment to the white tee HCs for both of these guys comes to a 4 stroke reduction).  Unfortunately, I'm the bad guy in their eyes for outing the rule.  

 

In brief, all players for an event compute their course handicap from the tees they plan to play.  Then, for the guys playing different tees, take the difference in the course rating of the tees at issue.  Round to the nearest whole number and subtract (or add, as the case may be), that number from the course handicap of the player(s) playing the different tees.  In the case of player #1 above, he is a 17 HC from the white tees and a 16 from the blended tees.  The course rating from the white tees is 69.6 and 67.4 from the blended tees, a difference of 2.5 which is rounded up by rule to 3.  Subtracting that from his 16 course HC gives a HC of 13 for the match.

 

I would think most of you would already know all this, but I thought that at my course and it appears I was the only one up to speed!

Edited by jaxbeachpackerfan
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Nonchalant putts count the same as chalant putts.

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Callaway Apex CF 16 Irons, 4-P, Stiff Shafts
 
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I decided to talk to a golf buddy that now plays in the BIG skins game each weekend at the club. I told him I'd like to play in it too but it's unfair. They don't handicap and there is a sizable group

Our game got cancelled today due to rain and cold (wimps I say), so thought I'd relay a handicap issue that was recently raised in our weekly games.   A couple of guys have decided to play the blend

My tournament league employs the adjustment for playing from different tees in our tournaments.  Sometimes the adjustment can be as much as 4 strokes.  I am 69 years old and qualify to play from the s

In my eyes you aren't the bad guy but rather the savior. As someone who would've been having to play the further back set of tees I would've been pissed if that rule wouldn't have been known.

 

Good job Jax!

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The game at my club that I usually play in is not handicapped. There can be anywhere from 8 to 16 players on any given Saturday. We're all pretty evenly matched so no need to handicap the game. However, there is a much larger "day" game (can be upwards of 40 in the summer) most Saturdays and Sundays. It's not handicapped either. There can be 8-10 players who are scratch to 3 handicap types. Everyone else is 6-10-12-15 handicappers. It's a chumps game. The skin buy-in is $20 a man. Guess who wins most if not all the skins? I've even asked a few guys why they play that game to only make a weekly donation to 3-4 guys. They have next to Zero chance of ever winning anything. But there's lots of beer drinking to be had so I guess that's something. Funny though..... I've noticed the best players aren't doing the drinking. They're doing the winning and having all the 12 hcps pay them. Not a bad racket eh?

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The game at my club that I usually play in is not handicapped. There can be anywhere from 8 to 16 players on any given Saturday. We're all pretty evenly matched so no need to handicap the game. However, there is a much larger "day" game (can be upwards of 40 in the summer) most Saturdays and Sundays. It's not handicapped either. There can be 8-10 players who are scratch to 3 handicap types. Everyone else is 6-10-12-15 handicappers. It's a chumps game. The skin buy-in is $20 a man. Guess who wins most if not all the skins? I've even asked a few guys why they play that game to only make a weekly donation to 3-4 guys. They have next to Zero chance of ever winning anything. But there's lots of beer drinking to be had so I guess that's something. Funny though..... I've noticed the best players aren't doing the drinking. They're doing the winning and having all the 12 hcps pay them. Not a bad racket eh?

Sounds like some of the games we have here, but those 8-10 guys would be captains and they would  take turns picking players for their teams. Everyone plays their own ball and count three balls for each hole.  I wouldn't donate to those guys.

We don’t stop playing the game because we get old; we get old because we stop playing the game.”

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The stroke difference between the White Tees and the Gold (Senior) Tees at my club is 4 strokes, so when someone in our Saturday Game turns 65, they can move up.  Because I have a formula to average the top 5 scores of their last 10 rounds, I add 4 strokes to each of their last 10 rounds so going forward, the average formula calculates correctly.  I turned 65 on Christmas Day, so my points went from 18 to 22.  The first round I shot an 82 on Dec 26 with 26 points! The next round on Dec 31, I shot a 78!......I am really liking the Senior Tees! The yardage difference is 516 yds, acording to the scorecard.The rating/slope drops from 69.1/122 to 66.3/111.

 

Estimating my Stableford Points it appears my Handicap should drop from 18 to about a 12........I think 2016 is going to be a great golf year for me!

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Driver: Tour Edge Exotics EXS w/Mitsubishi ck Blue regular shaft BACKUP DRIVER: Cobra F8 w/Mitsubishi ck Blue regular shaft  Fairways:  Cobra King F8 3W(14.5*) & 5W(18.5*) w/Mitsubishi ck Blue regular shaft Hybrids: Tour Edge CBX 119 4H(22*)  with Project X Evenflo regular shaft Irons: Wilson Staff D7 5 - PW w/Recoil 460 regular shafts Wedges: Wilson D7 GW(50*) & SW(54*) w/Recoil 460 regular shafts; Cleveland RTX Zipcore(58*) w/True Temper Spinner Wedge steel shaft  Putter: 33" Slotline SSi 693 mid mallet Bag: Cobra Ultralite Cart Bag(Peacoat Blue).

 

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The stroke difference between the White Tees and the Gold (Senior) Tees at my club is 4 strokes, so when someone in our Saturday Game turns 65, they can move up.  Because I have a formula to average the top 5 scores of their last 10 rounds, I add 4 strokes to each of their last 10 rounds so going forward, the average formula calculates correctly.  I turned 65 on Christmas Day, so my points went from 18 to 22.  The first round I shot an 82 on Dec 26 with 26 points! The next round on Dec 31, I shot a 78!......I am really liking the Senior Tees! The yardage difference is 516 yds, acording to the scorecard.The rating/slope drops from 69.1/122 to 66.3/111.

 

Estimating my Stableford Points it appears my Handicap should drop from 18 to about a 12........I think 2016 is going to be a great golf year for me!

Foz--just playing with your numbers and backing into an index that would result in an 18 course handicap from the white tees.  A 16.7 index would result in an 18 course HC on a 69.1/122 course.  That same index from the Senior Tees would result in a 16 course HC on a 66.3/111 course.  In a competition based on HCs with someone playing from the white tees and someone from the senior tees, the difference in course ratings is 2.8, which is rounded up to 3.  So, senior tee player will have a 13 handicap in the competition, a total 5 stroke difference from his white tee HC.  

 

I don't know how that all translates in a stableford context, but your adjustment does appear to be in the ballpark!

 

Keep up with the good playing, I'm seeing single digits in the future!!!

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Nonchalant putts count the same as chalant putts.

In my Ogio Ozone XX Cart Stand Bag:

Ping G400 10.5 Deg Driver, stock Stiff shaft
TM Rocketballz 19 Deg 5 Wood, stock Matrix Osik Stiff shaft
TM Rocketballz Stage 2 21 Deg Tour 4 Hybrid, Rocketfuel 80h Stiff shaft 

Callaway Apex CF 16 Irons, 4-P, Stiff Shafts
 
Scor 48 and 55 degree wedges.  
Renegar 60 Deg Steel Shaft Lob Wedge

TM Ghost Spider Si 38" Counterbalanced Putter

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My tournament league employs the adjustment for playing from different tees in our tournaments.  Sometimes the adjustment can be as much as 4 strokes.  I am 69 years old and qualify to play from the senior tees.  The question each tournament is how many strokes will it cost me and is it worth the adjustment to move up to the senior tees.  Some of our seniors never think twice...they always move up.  Some, like me, decide each event whether to move up or not.  It really depends on how much yardage advantage we gain and on what holes.  

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Check out www.littlejohngolfleague.com a Greater Houston Traveling Golf League

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My tournament league employs the adjustment for playing from different tees in our tournaments.  Sometimes the adjustment can be as much as 4 strokes.  I am 69 years old and qualify to play from the senior tees.  The question each tournament is how many strokes will it cost me and is it worth the adjustment to move up to the senior tees.  Some of our seniors never think twice...they always move up.  Some, like me, decide each event whether to move up or not.  It really depends on how much yardage advantage we gain and on what holes.  

Which is why the rating system is not perfect.  

 

To better understand how courses are rated, I have contacted the WSGA handicap rating chairman, and I will be accompanying them as an observer when they visit my area this year.  Three courses are up for review and rating this year.  My new course is not one of them.

We don’t stop playing the game because we get old; we get old because we stop playing the game.”

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We are having this discussion at our club, the difference between the blue and white tees is 1.5, which will subtract 2 strokes from the guys who play from the white tees

Lefties are always in their Right Mind

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The game at my club that I usually play in is not handicapped. There can be anywhere from 8 to 16 players on any given Saturday. We're all pretty evenly matched so no need to handicap the game. However, there is a much larger "day" game (can be upwards of 40 in the summer) most Saturdays and Sundays. It's not handicapped either. There can be 8-10 players who are scratch to 3 handicap types. Everyone else is 6-10-12-15 handicappers. It's a chumps game. The skin buy-in is $20 a man. Guess who wins most if not all the skins? I've even asked a few guys why they play that game to only make a weekly donation to 3-4 guys. They have next to Zero chance of ever winning anything. But there's lots of beer drinking to be had so I guess that's something. Funny though..... I've noticed the best players aren't doing the drinking. They're doing the winning and having all the 12 hcps pay them. Not a bad racket eh?

Good Lord I'm coming to play with you guys!

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Driver- Tmag 2017 M2 tour issue 8.5* actual loft 7.8* w/ Diamana Ahina 80X 44"
Fairway Metal- Tour Edge Exotics XCG7 Beta 3W 13* w/ Matrix 7m4 X 42.5"

Utility- Mizuno MPH5 1 iron w/ Aldila RIP 85X (depending on course/ conditions)

Irons- Mizuno MP-18 FLI HI 3i and 4i w/ KBS C-taper lite X
          Mizuno MP59 5i and 6I w/ PX 6.5

          Mizuno MP69 7i-PW w/ PX 6.5

Wedges- Scratch 8620 Driver/Slider set.  50*, 56* bent to 55* w/ rifle spinner shafts

                and Titleist Vokey 60* M grind

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Haaa... I don't blame you Under. But I can't let you in my group with your evil .2 hcp. My group is 6 to 12 handicappers. Surely you don't want to take advantage of a bunch of old guys do you? LOL

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My Sun Mountain bag currently includes:   TWGTLogo2.png.06c802075f4d211691d88895b3f34b75.png 771CSI 5i - PW and TWGTLogo2.png.06c802075f4d211691d88895b3f34b75.png PFC Micro Tour-c 52°, 56°, 60 wedges

                                                                               :755178188_TourEdge: EXS 10.5*, TWGTLogo2.png.06c802075f4d211691d88895b3f34b75.png 929-HS FW4 16.5* 

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Haaa... I don't blame you Under. But I can't let you in my group with your evil .2 hcp. My group is 6 to 12 handicappers. Surely you don't want to take advantage of a bunch of old guys do you? LOL

They seem like their giving away their money anyway. It may as well go to a good home! Haha seriously though, it sounds like Yall need a new game.

Driver- Tmag 2017 M2 tour issue 8.5* actual loft 7.8* w/ Diamana Ahina 80X 44"
Fairway Metal- Tour Edge Exotics XCG7 Beta 3W 13* w/ Matrix 7m4 X 42.5"

Utility- Mizuno MPH5 1 iron w/ Aldila RIP 85X (depending on course/ conditions)

Irons- Mizuno MP-18 FLI HI 3i and 4i w/ KBS C-taper lite X
          Mizuno MP59 5i and 6I w/ PX 6.5

          Mizuno MP69 7i-PW w/ PX 6.5

Wedges- Scratch 8620 Driver/Slider set.  50*, 56* bent to 55* w/ rifle spinner shafts

                and Titleist Vokey 60* M grind

Putter- Never Compromise Dinero Mogul
Ball- Bridgestone Tour B XS

Bag- Ogio Aquatech Cart Bag

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Under.... our game is fine. It's the other one. The one where the suckers play.

My Sun Mountain bag currently includes:   TWGTLogo2.png.06c802075f4d211691d88895b3f34b75.png 771CSI 5i - PW and TWGTLogo2.png.06c802075f4d211691d88895b3f34b75.png PFC Micro Tour-c 52°, 56°, 60 wedges

                                                                               :755178188_TourEdge: EXS 10.5*, TWGTLogo2.png.06c802075f4d211691d88895b3f34b75.png 929-HS FW4 16.5* 

                                                                                :edel-golf-1: Willimette w/GolfPride Contour

 

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It's okay as long as the winners are buying the beer!

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Driver: Tour Edge Exotics EXS w/Mitsubishi ck Blue regular shaft BACKUP DRIVER: Cobra F8 w/Mitsubishi ck Blue regular shaft  Fairways:  Cobra King F8 3W(14.5*) & 5W(18.5*) w/Mitsubishi ck Blue regular shaft Hybrids: Tour Edge CBX 119 4H(22*)  with Project X Evenflo regular shaft Irons: Wilson Staff D7 5 - PW w/Recoil 460 regular shafts Wedges: Wilson D7 GW(50*) & SW(54*) w/Recoil 460 regular shafts; Cleveland RTX Zipcore(58*) w/True Temper Spinner Wedge steel shaft  Putter: 33" Slotline SSi 693 mid mallet Bag: Cobra Ultralite Cart Bag(Peacoat Blue).

 

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Under.... our game is fine. It's the other one. The one where the suckers play.

That's what I meant. The big game needs to be revised. Or I need to be invited. Either One :D

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Driver- Tmag 2017 M2 tour issue 8.5* actual loft 7.8* w/ Diamana Ahina 80X 44"
Fairway Metal- Tour Edge Exotics XCG7 Beta 3W 13* w/ Matrix 7m4 X 42.5"

Utility- Mizuno MPH5 1 iron w/ Aldila RIP 85X (depending on course/ conditions)

Irons- Mizuno MP-18 FLI HI 3i and 4i w/ KBS C-taper lite X
          Mizuno MP59 5i and 6I w/ PX 6.5

          Mizuno MP69 7i-PW w/ PX 6.5

Wedges- Scratch 8620 Driver/Slider set.  50*, 56* bent to 55* w/ rifle spinner shafts

                and Titleist Vokey 60* M grind

Putter- Never Compromise Dinero Mogul
Ball- Bridgestone Tour B XS

Bag- Ogio Aquatech Cart Bag

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I want to call BS on this two or three strokes difference. For me, there may be 2-3 strokes difference in score 6300 yard course and a 5900 course. This is the difference in the "Blues" and "Whites" at my home course. Switching back and forth between these tees have a small nominal effect on my score. However, put me on a 7000 yard course and my numbers go by 10 strokes. Perhaps if I played that distance more than twice a year it would be different. Put me on a 5000 yard course and my numbers will go drastically down, but I doubt by 10 from the norm.

 

Conversely, we have had 4 guys who have been playing with our group for years and been high 80's- low 90's shooters. They all have birthdays within 2 weeks of each other and turned 65 last year. They decided last week to move up to the "Gold" Tees.

 

They probably averaged 10 strokes better than they did before the move. Of course, on 10 holes the trouble they usually had to contend with is no longer in play so that accounts for the difference.

 

Since handicaps are based on the "White Tees" based on the USGA rules they should have had a 3 stroke adjustment to their handicaps, but the reality of it is suddenly, on a 5100 yard course, they can reach the par 5's in 2, they no longer have to worry about reaching the fairway on some of the holes and instead of having to hit long irons and hybrids to some greens they are hitting short irons.

 

I have been after all four of them to move up for several years because they were not competitive on the longer tees, but they said they would when they turned 65. They decided to make the move all at once. Last week they all shot between 78 and 82. Luckily, we played teams and I divided them up onto each team, otherwise it would have really skewed the betting system.

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I agree with Rick.  THAT is one reason I am accompanying the course raters when they come to town this year to re-rate 3 courses in my area.  I want to understand their criteria.

 

When I move back, it brings more holes into play that I cannot reach in regulation, so it increases my chances of not getting up and down for par.  It's more than the 2-3 shots that I get.  

We don’t stop playing the game because we get old; we get old because we stop playing the game.”

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Kenny, this article explains some of the factors used to determine both course rating and slope.

http://www.usga.org/handicapping-articles/course-rating-primer-e5bf725f.html

and this one has a lot of the same information, with pictures

http://editiondigital.net/publication/?i=229777

At one time I had located an example rating sheet, but I can't find it.  

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Kenny, this article explains some of the factors used to determine both course rating and slope.

http://www.usga.org/handicapping-articles/course-rating-primer-e5bf725f.html

and this one has a lot of the same information, with pictures

http://editiondigital.net/publication/?i=229777

At one time I had located an example rating sheet, but I can't find it.  

Thanks Dave.  I've seen the USGA link.  

Regarding the second link, I witnessed an initial rating of a course many years ago.  The team was two guys.  I was fairly new to golf and really had no idea how they were doing it, but I don't think they did it like in this publication.  

 

12.    After the rating, the team plays the golf course to gain greater insight into the course from a playing perspective.  They tweak the ratings along the way, making sure everything is accurate.

 

​I know they did not play the course.  I was playing he course at the time and watched them come through a couple of holes.  This course also happens to be one that I have played many times since and if I played it exclusively and recorded every score in GHIN, I would be rated a scratch golfer.  Ain't no way, no how that's true.  So I call BS on their rating.  

 

As it happens, this course is one of the three in my area that is getting a rating review.  I bet they don't play it.  I bet they don't play any of them.  The raters are from Seattle, 200 miles away.  I wonder how long they will be here; I'll let you know.

We don’t stop playing the game because we get old; we get old because we stop playing the game.”

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