Shaft Lean (Irons)

[ole gray]

I think we all know that the handle of the club should lead the clubhead through impact. My instructor was telling me today my hands were too far back while setting up with my iron shots.  He wanted my hands just inside of my lead leg so it would promote a slight lean forward. I've seen some players do a forward press when hitting irons and I have one good friend who uses the forward press as his trigger to start the swing.   What are your thoughts on addressing the ball and where your hands should rest?  

[tommc23]

I played my best golf with it and took it away then my ball striking deteriorated pretty badly. I will be using it again this year and have been practicing swings with it.

 

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[ole gray]

I played my best golf with it and took it away then my ball striking deteriorated pretty badly. I will be using it again this year and have been practicing swings with it.

 

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I think too much shaft lean is counter productive however not enough can cause flipping or throwing the club at the ball.  I think I have found my first key thought for 2018 and that will be keeping my shaft leaning forward ahead of the clubhead. When the clubhead outruns the handle bad things happen. 

[tommc23]

I think too much shaft lean is counter productive however not enough can cause flipping or throwing the club at the ball. I think I have found my first key thought for 2018 and that will be keeping my shaft leaning forward ahead of the clubhead. When the clubhead outruns the handle bad things happen.

I actually tried the DJ shaft lean and swing last year and played ok with it. He really presses forward to start his swing and I even put the wrist the way he does and didn't play that bad.

 

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[ole gray]

I actually tried the DJ shaft lean and swing last year and played ok with it. He really presses forward to start his swing and I even put the wrist the way he does and didn't play that bad.

 

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Yea he bows that wrist right on through the ball.  I'm looking forward to hearing from some of our low cappers on their thoughts with shaft lean.  I think we could be in for some interesting tips. 

[HardcoreLooper]

My older daughter does this. It's a really small forward press, but it helps her get into a better position at the top.

[GolfJunkie302]

Starting with your hands too far back causes chunky shots. A little shaft lean will lead to ball-first contact, which equates to increased spin and a higher ball flight.

 

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[TR1PTIK]

I think we all know that the handle of the club should lead the clubhead through impact. My instructor was telling me today my hands were too far back while setting up with my iron shots.  He wanted my hands just inside of my lead leg so it would promote a slight lean forward. I've seen some players do a forward press when hitting irons and I have one good friend who uses the forward press as his trigger to start the swing.   What are your thoughts on addressing the ball and where your hands should rest?  

 

Look at how DJ initiates his swing. Good enough for me. Though, I do prefer to keep my hands more neutral because it seems to help me control the club going back a little better. Just different feels is all I guess. 

[mooremikea]

Lack of shaft lean can be caused by many things and tends to be a symptom of something wrong earlier in the downswing.  One of the most common would be an open club face on the downswing.  If the club face is open and shaft lean is added then the club face is REALLY open (shank city).  My cause of lack of shaft lean is a combination of my arms trailing my pivot and an open club face on the downswing.  If my hands were ahead of the club at impact the ball would go straight right.  This winter I have been working on getting my arms to move first in the downswing and getting my right wrist into extension early in my backswing (effectively closing the club face).  When some players do a forward press they are flattening the left wrist (right wrist extension is a result) and closing the club face slightly when initiating the backswing.  

[Shankster]

I progress through the set.

 

Long irons 2/3/4 are at ball or just a touch in front or behind. Depending on shot I'm trying to accomplish.

 

Mid and shorts are at or in front of ball for the stock shot . But again if I'm trying to soar a 7 iron I'll plant my weight on the back foot and get some backwards shaft lean.

 

Work with an impact bag was good practice last summer.

[revkev]

My teacher does not like that starting position - at all.

 

 

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[ole gray]

My teacher does not like that starting position - at all.

 

 

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Hands inside left leg?

 

 

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[Kor.A.Door]

For short irons I do have some forward shaft lean, but mid irons I think I am in fairly neutral position, maybe slightly forward. Long irons I move the ball slightly ahead of center so shaft lean is difficult there. I have some friends that have a lot of shaft lean on All irons, but they also hit a very high, very long trap draw. So they keep the shaft lean through the swing very well, when they miss, usually it's the ball above the feet, it's usually a heel shot, not a shank, but it sure looks like one, but it's actually just a heel mishit. Where the toe grabs and the heel hit the ball.

[PlaidJacket]

My instructor wanted me to move my hands slightly forward of my zipper. Which I do now days. But personally I don't think it matters all that much. Neutral is good too IMO.

As far as shaft lean is concerned... and I mean at the moment of impact not at setup. Leaning the shaft forward at setup doesn't mean you'll impact the ball that way. I'm not going to try and describe shaft lean through impact but it's more of a function of body rotation generally speaking.

[HardcoreLooper]

My older daughter does this. It's a really small forward press, but it helps her get into a better position at the top.

Her teacher started her doing this.

 

As for me, I never think about the position of my hands on full shots with any club other than a driver. I couldn't even tell you if my hands are ahead, behind or neutral.

[PMookie]

I see the point, but all that matters is that your hands are in that position at impact. I've seen it done, I've seen it not done, and neither way seemed to make a difference at impact... If there's a need to pre-set the wrists because you're NOT at that position at impact, I totally get it.

 

In recently reading about how the older guys like Nicklaus, Trevino, Hogan, etc started with the right knee bent inward, had a small press further with the knee that included a press of the wrists, I like the idea of a movement like that as a key for starting the swing.

 

 

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[null]

There are no absolutes. Shaft lean works for some and not others

 

I know you tend to close the face and hit hooks so leaning the shaft forward at impact, keeping everything else about your swing the same, will open up the club face and give you a more square impact position

[ole gray]

For me as long as the handle beats the club head I'm good.  I hit some solid shots today with my hands in neutral so I'll let that dog sleep. 

[revkev]

Hands inside left leg?

 

 

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Correct - he likes hands neutral to the ball - no shaft lean.

 

 

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[DaveP043]

In general, I want my lead shoulder, hands, and ball to form a single line.  Since I never (except with driver) position the ball as far forward as my lead shoulder, my hands are always slightly ahead of the ball.  I wouldn't want to exaggerate the "hands ahead" position, though.  I'd like to achieve basically the same position at impact.  

[robotnoises]

I had a very similar experience during my first lesson earlier this year. It could be just because my irons have a little bit of offset, but when I set my iron down naturally (don't control it at all with your hands) it should show you how much shaft lean there should be at address. I find that if the grip is pointing toward the inside of my left thigh (I'm a righty), I'm in a good position to compress the ball properly during impact.

[PING Apologist #9]

During my first ever lesson, my instructor showed me how to make a more "strong" grip on my clubs (mainly mid-short irons) and that lended to a very prominent shaft lean and even a shoulder lean as well. I'm not too keen on it as yet, but am still trying to practice this new set up more since I was able to produce some impressive shots with it including a power fade which is a shot I was lacking. Distance and better control  were also positive factors, but if I leaned too much, chunk city...

[revkev]

During my first ever lesson, my instructor showed me how to make a more "strong" grip on my clubs (mainly mid-short irons) and that lended to a very prominent shaft lean and even a shoulder lean as well. I'm not too keen on it as yet, but am still trying to practice this new set up more since I was able to produce some impressive shots with it including a power fade which is a shot I was lacking. Distance and better control were also positive factors, but if I leaned too much, chunk city...

If it means anything we all were amazed at how strong the tour grips were.

 

My teacher is always on me to strengthen my grip.

 

 

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[PING Apologist #9]

If it means anything we all were amazed at how strong the tour grips were.

 

My teacher is always on me to strengthen my grip.

 

 

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Indeed. My first efforts with it were quite uncomfortable. But the more I try it, the better it feels. Had really negative results with it on my longer clubs both hitting into my net and the first 9 of our round Sunday. So I backed off of the "strong" grip and went more "neutral", (or back to my original really), for D, 3W, 5W, 3H and 4I to about 6I. I had much better results on the back 9 that way. Just need more experience with it since that really seems to be one of many keys to consistent longer distance and actual control-at least for me.

[null]

Shaft lean opens the face.  If you already have issues with an open face, then shaft lean is not really a good option for you.

[Shankster]

Hood it and hit low bullets.

[downlowkey]

As some others have alluded, based on your personal tendencies, shaft lean at address may prove to be positive or detrimental. For me personally, shaft lean at address leads to less than ideal clubhead release and turf interaction; but in certain situations I will consciously utilize it to avoid trouble on the left. If you'll follow me down the rabbit hole, I'll try to impart some impact geometry....errr....telemetry....errr....theory? Let's frame this as a conversation between an instructor and student...

 

Pro: It may seem counterintuitive but we are going to start with impact positions and work back to address via deductive reasoning. As a "shallow digger" a slight shaft lean toward target at impact is crucial for my trajectory and dispersion.

Student: Shaft lean improves trajectory and dispersion? That seems easy enough, done deal.

Pro: Not so fast Padawan; with your neutral current grip and address positions, shaft lean at impact means you're probably missing to the right side all day.

Student: I don't understand.

Pro: (demonstrates the clubface opening and closing as a product of shaft lean) Do you see where the club is facing when we simply lean the shaft toward the target?

Student: Yeah, wayyyy right!

Pro: Correct; how are we going to get it back to square and maintain the shaft lean?

Student: Close it?

Pro: Correct again, you are on a roll! How much should we close the face?

Student: Until it's square.

Pro: That is correct; but how much...10 degrees...15...20?

Student: I don't know.

Pro: Strangely enough that is also the correct answer and it brings up our next point. This clubhead is going to be traveling 80+ miles an hour. In that accelerating arc your brain cannot be counted on to accurately assess the relative face error and deliver a corrective action.

Student: Okay, that makes sense. Then how do we fix the problem?

Pro: As I said in the beginning, this is all leading back to address positions. Assuming you are capable of consistently aligning your body and clubface to the target, you are faced with two address options. Option 1: address the ball with a square face, forward shaft lean and neutral grip, the idea being that the club will be returned to this position at impact. Option 2: address the ball with a square face, zero shaft lean and a stronger grip.

Student: How do I know which of those options is right for me?

Pro: To be honest a lot of it comes down to psychology, but I asked you to follow me down a rabbit hole, not a black hole. So instead let's just assign each option based on initial takeaway and its effect on path and impact. When my swing is off, it's typically the product of bringing the club inside too quickly on my takeaway. Having my hands behind the ball at address really helps me take everything back in one piece but it's not the position I want to deliver at impact. Leaning the shaft forward at impact traps the ball but it requires a stronger grip to deliver a concurrently descending arc and square face. To experiment with Option 2: Simply strengthen your grip until your swing consistently delivers a square face with shaft lean.

Student: Okay, that explains the zero lean/strong grip option as it relates to your tendencies. But what sort of takeaway tendency is forward lean at address most likely to benefit?

Pro: That is a great question. Just as zero shaft lean (or negative lean) helps prevent takeaway inside the ideal path; forward shaft lean should help prevent takeaways outside the ideal path. The theory behind both of these address options suggests that when paired with the right player, they will encourage a more organized turn and subsequently stronger and more repeatable impact positions. Hopefully it's abundantly clear that neither of these address options will work for every player and even when they are correctly assigned to the player, slight adjustments will likely be required based on their personal idiosyncrasies.

Student: Okay, I think I'm getting it. But you said sometimes forward shaft lean at address helps you avoid trouble on the left.

Pro: Geez, nothing slips past you; such a fine student. That's correct, when I absolutely positively cannot miss left, forward shaft lean is useful in my game. Keeping my grip the same, leaning the shaft forward opens the face and makes me more likely to take the club inside the ideal path resulting in a slightly over the top transition correction. The clubhead approaches the ball at a steeper angle with an open face that typically results in a slightly wiped block to the right. Definitely not the best feeling strike but it's better than playing my next shot from the ditch.

Student: So sometimes you adjust your address position to hit an intentionally clanky shot?

Pro: Yep, golf is a weird game like that. Well, time's up!

Student: This is fascinating stuff, I have more questions! It seems like there could be additional address options to potentially benefit a specific player's tendencies. Forward shaft lean, really strong grip and an open face for example could help a player who...

Pro: I said, we are out of time!

[Big money]

Shaft lean opens the face. If you already have issues with an open face, then shaft lean is not really a good option for you.

bingo.My pro also told me to much lean can also cause some to shank the ball.Eapecially if they swing in to out

[CFrazier]

I start my swing by initiating a forward press with my irons; then I hold that angle through my backswing and into my ballstrike. It works well for me. As for how much I forward press; I basically point the end of the grip into my left pocket.....

I'm currently a 4 index.

 

 

 

 

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[Canucklehead]

For reasons that I'm not smart enough to comprehend, when I lean the shaft forward a hair so my hands are above the ball or slightly in front, I make much better impact and hit slightly down which helps me control it better. Before my pro started me on this, I was thinning shots all the time

 

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