Golf rule for strange occurrence

[Bob Griffin]

Today playing in our four-ball something occurred that none of us have encountered in 40 years playing.
Seventh hole we all hit decent drives. Three of us were on the left side of the fairway and my partner just rolled off into the rough.
My partner was searching for his ball and when it was found it was his turn to play first.
He hit the ball hard but along the ground. Then twenty yards in front it hit something solid and bounced backwards about 50 yards.
He said ‘what did that hit.‘
None of us had noticed the player, who was to play third had removed a steel marker pole,  which was about 4 feet long and 4 inches diameter.
It was impeding his backswing. 
But he placed it square-on right on my partners line. The pole was dark green and none of us saw it lying in the rough, even his partner.
Now the ricochet sent my partner so far back he had no chance of reaching the green with his next shot. We lost the hole.
We argued that he should not have removed the post until it was his turn to play and should not have placed it on my partners line of play.
He argued that my partner was responsible for checking anything on his line of play. But none of us saw the  pole lying there or him placing it, even his partner.
It was a bad shot by my partner, we’ve all knobbed shots along the ground, but his ball would have been 50 yards further up rather than back.
Is the opposition player entitled to remove the post before his turn to play and place it on my partners line of play?
Be great to hear your thoughts on this.

They said if he had played the ball in the air he wouldn’t have hit it. We argued that they had placed an impediment on my partner’s line and it was clearly an impediment as he hit it.

Anyone know the rule on this? 
Many Thanks 

[RickyBobby_PR]

I’m not aware of any rule that limits when a player can remove a moveable object. 
 

As for line of play he laid it on the ground and in a manner that did not affect your partners swing. Your partner hit a bad shot and hit an on object on the ground and had a bad result. That is the rub of the green and the other person did nothing that affected a ball in motion. 

[DaveP043]

2 hours ago, Bob Griffin said:

Anyone know the rule on this? 
Many Thanks 

The first question to ask, have YOU researched the rules to see if you can find anything?  You'll find that a player generally cannot move anything while a ball is in motion, with the intention of affecting where the ball ends up.  But that doesn't apply in your case, because the obstruction was moved prior to the ball being played, and it wasn't done to deliberately influence the outcome of the shot.  Its just bad luck compounding an already poor shot.

[CarlH]

No rules were violated, directly or indirectly.

[BIG STU]

2 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

The first question to ask, have YOU researched the rules to see if you can find anything?  You'll find that a player generally cannot move anything while a ball is in motion, with the intention of affecting where the ball ends up.  But that doesn't apply in your case, because the obstruction was moved prior to the ball being played, and it wasn't done to deliberately influence the outcome of the shot.  Its just bad luck compounding an already poor shot.

Dave a new question on the same line.I figured you could answer this if anyone could because you stay up pretty good on the rules or I should say current

You can remove a hazard stake if it interferes with your play. Now used to be you could not remove a OB marker ( providing the ball is in bounds) Is that the way it still is?

[RickyBobby_PR]

8 minutes ago, BIG STU said:

Dave a new question on the same line.I figured you could answer this if anyone could because you stay up pretty good on the rules or I should say current

You can remove a hazard stake if it interferes with your play. Now used to be you could not remove a OB marker ( providing the ball is in bounds) Is that the way it still is?

Still that way. Anything identify course boundary cannot me be moved. 
 

[BIG STU]

1 minute ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Still that way. Anything identify course boundary cannot me be moved. 
 

Ok thanks--- I know Dave stays pretty current on the rules--- I used to back when I played comp I went to rules classes though at least once a year---- So yep I have been slack since I do not do the comp thing. Glad to know you stay current on the rules too

[The 19th Hole]

I think of this like the time Speith was in a deep bunker and hit his shot. It hit a Rake at the top of the bunker that they didn't notice before he hit. He was upset, but went and played the shot he was left with as well as admitted it was his fault for not seeing it. 

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/us-open-2019-jordan-spieth-hits-bunker-shot-off-hidden-rake-has-classic-exchange-with-his-caddie

[Guest Delete]

I would agree that it is just a bummer. 

A couple local courses have overhanging power lines. If you hit one then it is a forced automatic replay of the shot no matter where the ball lands as a local rule. 

The only rule that seems to come close is taking relief from an imovable man-made obstruction but, that isn't what was described here. 

Luckily, you were playing match play where it only cost a hole and not strokes which would have been worse. 

[RickyBobby_PR]

27 minutes ago, BIG STU said:

Ok thanks--- I know Dave stays pretty current on the rules--- I used to back when I played comp I went to rules classes though at least once a year---- So yep I have been slack since I do not do the comp thing. Glad to know you stay current on the rules too

I try to have a general understanding of them. One of the guys in my long standing group is like Dave and very knowledgeable on the rules so there’s usually some sort of rules discussion during the round or post round. There’s some places on Andrews AFB that end up having the need to look at rules. There are some holes that border holes from another one of the courses but they aren’t marked with boundary markers

[DaveP043]

41 minutes ago, BIG STU said:

Dave a new question on the same line.I figured you could answer this if anyone could because you stay up pretty good on the rules or I should say current

You can remove a hazard stake if it interferes with your play. Now used to be you could not remove a OB marker ( providing the ball is in bounds) Is that the way it still is?

I checked the Definitions, and come up with this.  Boundary objects (including stakes, plus a few other things) are NOT obstructions, free relief is not allowed, and they are treated as "immovable" even if they actually can be moved.

Stakes, other than Boundary Objects, are defined as Obstructions.  So we go to Rules 15 and 16 which deal with Movable and Immovable Obstructions, respectively.  You are allowed to move a Movable Obstruction, almost any time.  If the stake is not movable (maybe its set in a concrete base?) you get free relief as long as your ball is not in a Penalty Area.  

So my take is that this rule hasn't changed.  And I mentioned the spots where I found this stuff to help someone check my work, I'm far from an expert.

[RickyBobby_PR]

3 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

I checked the Definitions, and come up with this.  Boundary objects (including stakes, plus a few other things) are NOT obstructions, free relief is not allowed, and they are treated as "immovable" even if they actually can be moved.

Stakes, other than Boundary Objects, are defined as Obstructions.  So we go to Rules 15 and 16 which deal with Movable and Immovable Obstructions, respectively.  You are allowed to move a Movable Obstruction, almost any time.  If the stake is not movable (maybe its set in a concrete base?) you get free relief as long as your ball is not in a Penalty Area.  

So my take is that this rule hasn't changed.  And I mentioned the spots where I found this stuff to help someone check my work, I'm far from an expert.

The faq talks about it as well and says they can’t be removed 

https://www.usga.org/RulesFAQ/rules_answer2019.asp?FAQidx=187&Rule=0&Topic=18

[DaveP043]

2 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

The faq talks about it as well and says they can’t be removed 

https://www.usga.org/RulesFAQ/rules_answer2019.asp?FAQidx=187&Rule=0&Topic=18

I can't say I've ever used the FAQs, its nice to know they're available.  I generally go to the Rules themselves.  The best thing is to start with Definitions (even though they're near the end), and then go to the applicable Rule.  Looking things up has made me MUCH better.

[RickyBobby_PR]

7 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

I can't say I've ever used the FAQs, its nice to know they're available.  I generally go to the Rules themselves.  The best thing is to start with Definitions (even though they're near the end), and then go to the applicable Rule.  Looking things up has made me MUCH better.

Yeah normally definitions, decisions and the rules are the go to. 

[fixyurdivot]

6 hours ago, Bob Griffin said:

Today playing in our four-ball something occurred that none of us have encountered in 40 years playing.
Seventh hole we all hit decent drives. Three of us were on the left side of the fairway and my partner just rolled off into the rough.
My partner was searching for his ball and when it was found it was his turn to play first.
He hit the ball hard but along the ground. Then twenty yards in front it hit something solid and bounced backwards about 50 yards.
He said ‘what did that hit.‘
None of us had noticed the player, who was to play third had removed a steel marker pole,  which was about 4 feet long and 4 inches diameter.
It was impeding his backswing. 
But he placed it square-on right on my partners line. The pole was dark green and none of us saw it lying in the rough, even his partner.
Now the ricochet sent my partner so far back he had no chance of reaching the green with his next shot. We lost the hole.
We argued that he should not have removed the post until it was his turn to play and should not have placed it on my partners line of play.
He argued that my partner was responsible for checking anything on his line of play. But none of us saw the  pole lying there or him placing it, even his partner.
It was a bad shot by my partner, we’ve all knobbed shots along the ground, but his ball would have been 50 yards further up rather than back.
Is the opposition player entitled to remove the post before his turn to play and place it on my partners line of play?
Be great to hear your thoughts on this.

They said if he had played the ball in the air he wouldn’t have hit it. We argued that they had placed an impediment on my partner’s line and it was clearly an impediment as he hit it.

Anyone know the rule on this? 
Many Thanks 

Interesting scenario and subsequent responses from our rules gurus, thanks for sharing. 

To build on this a bit, what happens in a situation around the green where another player leaves a wedge on the apron and another player runs his chip or putt past the hole and it hits the club?  

[DaveP043]

35 minutes ago, fixyurdivot said:

Interesting scenario and subsequent responses from our rules gurus, thanks for sharing. 

To build on this a bit, what happens in a situation around the green where another player leaves a wedge on the apron and another player runs his chip or putt past the hole and it hits the club?  

I don't see anything that changes the ruling.  The player has the opportunity to move the obstruction, and hasn't done it.  The player has no responsibility to move an obstruction that has the potential to help his shot.  However, any of his fellow-competitors, or his opponent, can remove the obstruction, with or without his agreement.

[RickyBobby_PR]

4 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

I don't see anything that changes the ruling.  The player has the opportunity to move the obstruction, and hasn't done it.  The player has no responsibility to move an obstruction that has the potential to help his shot.  However, any of his fellow-competitors, or his opponent, can remove the obstruction, with or without his agreement.

I agree. 

[fixyurdivot]

Good to know.  We often play KP's and with the variation that if no one makes the green, it's closest on second shot.  Last season I had a ball land on and run off the back of the green.  After chipping on, I left my wedge on the fringe and one of the other guys second shot hit it and bounced back within inches of the hole. One of the guys thought I would incur a penalty stroke if we were playing "by the book".  Another said no.  None of us followed up because we don't get that deep into the rules book during our play.  The better argument was whether he was entitled to the KP... between he and the second closest to the pin.  The two of us not in the mix listened and laughed about that KP all the way into the clubhouse.  I finally said I'd pay both of them a quarter just to shut them up .

[Guest Delete]

1 hour ago, fixyurdivot said:

Interesting scenario and subsequent responses from our rules gurus, thanks for sharing. 

To build on this a bit, what happens in a situation around the green where another player leaves a wedge on the apron and another player runs his chip or putt past the hole and it hits the club?  

As long as it wasn't intentional, no penalty and play it as it lies. And, you can move the wedge.

[RickyBobby_PR]

22 minutes ago, fixyurdivot said:

Good to know.  We often play KP's and with the variation that if no one makes the green, it's closest on second shot.  Last season I had a ball land on and run off the back of the green.  After chipping on, I left my wedge on the fringe and one of the other guys second shot hit it and bounced back within inches of the hole. One of the guys thought I would incur a penalty stroke if we were playing "by the book".  Another said no.  None of us followed up because we don't get that deep into the rules book during our play.  The better argument was whether he was entitled to the KP... between he and the second closest to the pin.  The two of us not in the mix listened and laughed about that KP all the way into the clubhouse.  I finally said I'd pay both of them a quarter just to shut them up .

prior to last year that would have been a penalty on you. The changes the rule in 2019. Iirc it’s rule 11 for ball in motion 

[fixyurdivot]

26 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

prior to last year that would have been a penalty on you. The changes the rule in 2019. Iirc it’s rule 11 for ball in motion 

Oh God, you mean I have to tell Brian he was right?  

[RickyBobby_PR]

39 minutes ago, fixyurdivot said:

Oh God, you mean I have to tell Brian he was right?  

Nope it’s our little secret

[CarlH]

4 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

I can't say I've ever used the FAQs, its nice to know they're available.  I generally go to the Rules themselves.  The best thing is to start with Definitions (even though they're near the end), and then go to the applicable Rule.  Looking things up has made me MUCH better.

Spot on!  The definitions are a must-know as they really define how the rule reads, as you pointed out in an earlier post.  Also, it's a good idea to pay attention to words like "must" "shall" and "may" (among others) as they are used in the rule.  Been awhile since I've sat through courses, but I also try to stay current on the rules and enjoy those rules quizzes that often show up in the magazines.