Liv Golf Central Thread: Events and News

[Middler]

5 hours ago, fixyurdivot said:

Strike one.

Judge hands PGA Tour win over LIV Golf as 3 players denied request to play in FedEx Cup Playoffs - CNN

 

4 hours ago, ryan.mzzz said:

via espn. in my opinion, the correct decision. They were not harmed monetarily via emergency circumstance. They may be harmed long term, depending on how the case is resolved, but that’s their eyes wide open, big boy pants decision. 

edit: added link

https://www.espn.com/golf/story/_/id/34375643/federal-judge-rejects-bid-three-liv-golfers-compete-fedex-cup-playoffs

Good! You want to play LIV, go play there, you’ll be paid well enough. “Obnoxious greed” sure rings hollow right now Phil et al.

[Bang60]

5 minutes ago, Middler said:

 

Good! You want to play LIV, go play there, you’ll be paid well enough. “Obnoxious greed” sure rings hollow right now Phil et al.

Well I've agreed playing with Liv is a free choice, but no "do'overs" when you knew what your options were.. Suck it up boys..

[GolfSpy_APH]

The contracts likely won't be completely hidden after discovery which will be very interesting. 

Glad the guys weren't allowed to play fedex. Also that is good news for the PGA tour in the overall fight. Had they been allowed it would almost certainly have been the end of it all... that being said I still think it is headed that way.

[LICC]

7 hours ago, fixyurdivot said:

Strike one.

Judge hands PGA Tour win over LIV Golf as 3 players denied request to play in FedEx Cup Playoffs - CNN

A judge in U.S. District Court denied a motion Tuesday afternoon to three LIV Golf members seeking to participate in the FedEx Cup Playoffs, giving the PGA Tour the first victory in the legal battle between the tour and the Saudi-backed circuit. …

However, in a San Jose courtroom, Judge Beth Freeman sided with the tour.

"LIV contracts are based upon players calculation of what they were leaving behind,” Freeman said, adding they had not established a likelihood of success by their merits in the overall antitrust case.

[DaveP043]

4 hours ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

The contracts likely won't be completely hidden after discovery which will be very interesting. 

Glad the guys weren't allowed to play fedex. Also that is good news for the PGA tour in the overall fight. Had they been allowed it would almost certainly have been the end of it all... that being said I still think it is headed that way.

I agree, and we'll see about the final outcome.  What I found interesting is that the matter won't be decided for at least a full year from now, at soonest, and it could be a lot further away.  By that time, assuming the OWGR isn't forced to include LIV events, a huge percentage of the players will have no chance to qualify for the majors.

Quote

Freeman told attorneys that her court's first availability for a trial on the antitrust lawsuit would be September 2023. If that date doesn't work, the trial might not happen until 2025. That is significant because LIV players aren't currently receiving Official World Golf Ranking points for LIV events. LIV Golf recently submitted an application to OWGR for consideration.

 

[PMookie]

Go and look-up what Fred Couples said lately! He says exactly what I feel about all of this: you chose to play another Tour, fine, now GO AWAY!!!! I hope the PGA Tour “wins” in all of this, and Greg Norman goes back under a rock forever. Heck, maybe the Saudis will “let” Greg stay in their country, in a nice “hotel” for the rest of his life if this all fails… Greed. 

[GolfSpy_KFT]

Really disappointed to see Cam Smith leave the Tour to join LIV. Maybe not a huge draw for fans, but I liked watching him play. Would love to see some of these younger guys stick with the tour like McIlroy, Spieth, Thomas, etc. are doing.

[RickyBobby_PR]

27 minutes ago, Jnoble89 said:

Really disappointed to see Cam Smith leave the Tour to join LIV. Maybe not a huge draw for fans, but I liked watching him play. Would love to see some of these younger guys stick with the tour like McIlroy, Spieth, Thomas, etc. are doing.

Golf is their job. Like most people the work environment and money are going to draw them to new jobs. LIV is offering what they feel is a better work/life balance and getting more money in guaranteed contracts vice having to earn it from week to week. It all makes sense.

Most fans at least on forums don’t like where the money is coming from, some don’t like people beating around the bush on why they are switching which most believe it’s for the money and not what the golfers are saying.

Things in society are changing in all jobs. Loyalty isn’t there like it was in decades past. A lot of younger people are moving between jobs more frequently than in the past. It’s about what can I get for me and how quick can I get it.

A lot of the current golfers aren’t the one you are going to see play on the champions tour when they hit 50 so get all the money you can now and when you hit the age that you aren’t competitive anymore call it quits and no need to hang on til 50 and eligible for champions tour.

[TBS]

10 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Golf is their job. Like most people the work environment and money are going to draw them to new jobs. LIV is offering what they feel is a better work/life balance and getting more money in guaranteed contracts vice having to earn it from week to week. It all makes sense.

Most fans at least on forums don’t like where the money is coming from, some don’t like people beating around the bush on why they are switching which most believe it’s for the money and not what the golfers are saying.

Things in society are changing in all jobs. Loyalty isn’t there like it was in decades past. A lot of younger people are moving between jobs more frequently than in the past. It’s about what can I get for me and how quick can I get it.

A lot of the current golfers aren’t the one you are going to see play on the champions tour when they hit 50 so get all the money you can now and when you hit the age that you aren’t competitive anymore call it quits and no need to hang on til 50 and eligible for champions tour.

I think this is different than just "changing companies for more money". This is dismantling professional golf. I'm pretty sure that Tom Brady, Michael Jordan, Lebron, etc. could leave their league, travel and do showcases all around for more money than their contract with a less demanding schedule. But they don't. They want to play with the best and win to build their legacy. 

This is a cash grab and abandoning and ultimately destroying the system they used to get them to this point. I think Monahan sees it as an all or nothing scenario. He's going to fight until a verdict and if LIV ultimately wins the PGA tour will be gone.

[MacTourney]

6 hours ago, Bang60 said:

Well I've agreed playing with Liv is a free choice, but no "do'overs" when you knew what your options were.. Suck it up boys..

Since LIV seems to like shaking things up maybe each tournament a player gets one 'do-over' anytime they want, and a bonus if not used. 

[RickyBobby_PR]

37 minutes ago, TBS said:

I think this is different than just "changing companies for more money". This is dismantling professional golf. I'm pretty sure that Tom Brady, Michael Jordan, Lebron, etc. could leave their league, travel and do showcases all around for more money than their contract with a less demanding schedule. But they don't. They want to play with the best and win to build their legacy. 

This is a cash grab and abandoning and ultimately destroying the system they used to get them to this point. I think Monahan sees it as an all or nothing scenario. He's going to fight until a verdict and if LIV ultimately wins the PGA tour will be gone.

Well yes from a LIV vs PGA tour it’s that, but the golfers leaving aren’t doing it with that intention. They are literally changing jobs and getting paid more to do it. 
 

Have to separate LIv intentions vs affect on PGA tour vs what the pros are doing. The pros are golfers by trade. Did the pga tour get them to where they are? Sure, but that doesn’t mean they have or should have loyalty to the pga tour if they grass is truly greener somewhere else

[GolfSpy_KFT]

1 hour ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Golf is their job. Like most people the work environment and money are going to draw them to new jobs. LIV is offering what they feel is a better work/life balance and getting more money in guaranteed contracts vice having to earn it from week to week. It all makes sense.

Most fans at least on forums don’t like where the money is coming from, some don’t like people beating around the bush on why they are switching which most believe it’s for the money and not what the golfers are saying.

Things in society are changing in all jobs. Loyalty isn’t there like it was in decades past. A lot of younger people are moving between jobs more frequently than in the past. It’s about what can I get for me and how quick can I get it.

A lot of the current golfers aren’t the one you are going to see play on the champions tour when they hit 50 so get all the money you can now and when you hit the age that you aren’t competitive anymore call it quits and no need to hang on til 50 and eligible for champions tour.

I can certainly see it from the angle of doing what is best for you, and who am I to judge what any of these guys make as personal decisions for them? I think eventually it may get to the point where it isn't as big of a deal or issue, but it's so new that it's challenging the "status quo" I guess you could say. I can see it from both sides of the fence, I suppose. It certainly makes sense when it comes to the work/life balance and monetary stance. 

[LICC]

3 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

I agree, and we'll see about the final outcome.  What I found interesting is that the matter won't be decided for at least a full year from now, at soonest, and it could be a lot further away.  By that time, assuming the OWGR isn't forced to include LIV events, a huge percentage of the players will have no chance to qualify for the majors.

I wouldn't be surprised if we see some reverse defections at some point of LIV players going back to the PGA Tour. From those Sergio Garcia-Greg Norman texts, it seems that some players didn't at all expect that they would be banned from the PGA Tour or possibly unable to play in majors.

[RickyBobby_PR]

29 minutes ago, LICC said:

I wouldn't be surprised if we see some reverse defections at some point of LIV players going back to the PGA Tour. From those Sergio Garcia-Greg Norman texts, it seems that some players didn't at all expect that they would be banned from the PGA Tour or possibly unable to play in majors.

How do you suppose that would happen?

Players who resigned their membership don’t have the korn ferry tour or pga Latin America as options to gain their card, plus they are also suspended which also takes away any Monday qualifying on those tours.

The players that are suspended but haven’t resigned their memberships will have to apply for reinstatement. Do you think PGA commish is going to grant that?

If the players thought they wouldn’t be banned from the tour and possibly the majors they are either lying or ignorant. They were told up front if they failed to obey the rules they created they would be suspended.  

[Undershooter]

50 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

How do you suppose that would happen?

Players who resigned their membership don’t have the korn ferry tour or pga Latin America as options to gain their card, plus they are also suspended which also takes away any Monday qualifying on those tours.

The players that are suspended but haven’t resigned their memberships will have to apply for reinstatement. Do you think PGA commish is going to grant that?

If the players thought they wouldn’t be banned from the tour and possibly the majors they are either lying or ignorant. They were told up front if they failed to obey the rules they created they would be suspended.  

They would have to apply for reinstatement and either serve their suspension or request a hearing for a shorter length/ dismissal of it. I think it would be a genius move by Monahan if he cut down on the suspension for anyone who renounced LIV and came back. Who knows if that would actually happen or not though.

[TBS]

33 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

How do you suppose that would happen?

Players who resigned their membership don’t have the korn ferry tour or pga Latin America as options to gain their card, plus they are also suspended which also takes away any Monday qualifying on those tours.

The players that are suspended but haven’t resigned their memberships will have to apply for reinstatement. Do you think PGA commish is going to grant that?

If the players thought they wouldn’t be banned from the tour and possibly the majors they are either lying or ignorant. They were told up front if they failed to obey the rules they created they would be suspended.  

They can play and win a bunch of asian tour events to get OWGR points.

[TBS]

1 hour ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Well yes from a LIV vs PGA tour it’s that, but the golfers leaving aren’t doing it with that intention. They are literally changing jobs and getting paid more to do it. 
 

Have to separate LIv intentions vs affect on PGA tour vs what the pros are doing. The pros are golfers by trade. Did the pga tour get them to where they are? Sure, but that doesn’t mean they have or should have loyalty to the pga tour if they grass is truly greener somewhere else

I hope these players, coaches, agents, and everyone else in their circles aren't ignorant enough to not see the ripple effect of them signing with LIV (Norman) and suing the member organization that they were a part of.

But maybe they are. Money can be quite blinding.

[DaveP043]

39 minutes ago, Undershooter said:

They would have to apply for reinstatement and either serve there suspension or request a hearing for a shorter length or dismissal of it. I think it would be a genius move by Monahan if he cut down on the suspension for anyone who renounced LIV and came back. Who knows if that would actually happen or not though.

I think that from a "legal" standpoint, it would make good sense to allow a smooth re-entry into PGA Tour for those who renounce LIV tour contracts.  The PGA shouldn't refuse to let them play forever, that seems to really be over the top.  I'm not saying no consequences, perhaps they give up some level of seniority, or serve some months of suspension, there have to be some kind of consequences.  A permanent ban definitely sounds monopolistic.

[RickyBobby_PR]

19 minutes ago, TBS said:

They can play and win a bunch of asian tour events to get OWGR points.

Still doesn’t grant them access to the pga tour or any of the tours run by the pga tour due to suspension.
 

Also the owgr points on Asia tour aren’t very high and they will have hard time staying ahead of those on pga tour and/or euro tour who are getting more points.

[Undershooter]

19 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

I think that from a "legal" standpoint, it would make good sense to allow a smooth re-entry into PGA Tour for those who renounce LIV tour contracts.  The PGA shouldn't refuse to let them play forever, that seems to really be over the top.  I'm not saying no consequences, perhaps they give up some level of seniority, or serve some months of suspension, there have to be some kind of consequences.  A permanent ban definitely sounds monopolistic.

Haven't all the suspension lengths been disclosed? I thought I remembered the longest of them being Phil at 2 years, but I could be making that up.

[LICC]

1 hour ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

How do you suppose that would happen?

Players who resigned their membership don’t have the korn ferry tour or pga Latin America as options to gain their card, plus they are also suspended which also takes away any Monday qualifying on those tours.

The players that are suspended but haven’t resigned their memberships will have to apply for reinstatement. Do you think PGA commish is going to grant that?

If the players thought they wouldn’t be banned from the tour and possibly the majors they are either lying or ignorant. They were told up front if they failed to obey the rules they created they would be suspended.  

If they convince the PGA Tour that they believed they made a mistake and are fully committed, I think the Tour would take some of them back. Not the troublesome ones but a guy like Talor Gooch. It would be good press for the Tour to do so.

You overestimate some of these guys. Some of them really believed they would have no problem playing both Tours, or that it wouldn't come to the point of suspensions.

[RickyBobby_PR]

8 minutes ago, LICC said:

If they convince the PGA Tour that they believed they made a mistake and are fully committed, I think the Tour would take some of them back. Not the troublesome ones but a guy like Talor Gooch. It would be good press for the Tour to do so.

You overestimate some of these guys. Some of them really believed they would have no problem playing both Tours, or that it wouldn't come to the point of suspensions.

That’s pure ignorance on their part if they thought that, and a poor excuse. They were told upfront that if they chose to violate the rules they would face the punishment. If they didn’t believe it then too bad for them. They are adults and should know and understand what their actions are going to be.

I have zero mercy for ignorance as an excuse 

[PeterHenric]

1 hour ago, DaveP043 said:

I think that from a "legal" standpoint, it would make good sense to allow a smooth re-entry into PGA Tour for those who renounce LIV tour contracts.  The PGA shouldn't refuse to let them play forever, that seems to really be over the top.  I'm not saying no consequences, perhaps they give up some level of seniority, or serve some months of suspension, there have to be some kind of consequences.  A permanent ban definitely sounds monopolistic.

That’s a fair point. They would have to publicly and repeatedly renounce LIV and suffer some sort of penalty. Monaghan would love to trot them out repeatedly doing mea culpa’s. “I have seen the error of my ways and LIV golf is not the answer.”

[chisag]

1 hour ago, LICC said:

If they convince the PGA Tour that they believed they made a mistake and are fully committed, I think the Tour would take some of them back. Not the troublesome ones but a guy like Talor Gooch. It would be good press for the Tour to do so.

You overestimate some of these guys. Some of them really believed they would have no problem playing both Tours, or that it wouldn't come to the point of suspensions.

 

... I think LIV keeps digging themselves a deeper hole. If they would just keep their mouths shut about the PGA Tour and promote all they think is good about their tour it would not seem like they are trying to destroy the PGA Tour. LIV likes to compare themselves to the PGA Tour as less restrictive with more time for family, blah, blah, blah but the Judge wasn't buying it:


"The judge also at one point said the LIV contracts were more restrictive than PGA Tour contracts, effectively solidifying a point of speculation among some pundits in recent months. LIV golfers are required to play all LIV events, while the Tour allows players to pick and choose among a greater field of events. LIV plans to hold 14 events in 2023, while most Tour golfers are required to play at least 15 events per season. There is also speculation that LIV golfers will be requested to play in some Asian Tour events, as that tour is affiliated with LIV. Major championships count among the 15 events most Tour players are required to play, while the majors would not count among the 14 events LIV golfers would be required to play. The judge effectively said that LIV’s requirement to play all its events is more restrictive than the Tour’s requirements."

[berkeleybob]

How would one renounce a LIV contract? Isn’t that breach of contract?

[DaveP043]

28 minutes ago, berkeleybob said:

How would one renounce a LIV contract? Isn’t that breach of contract?

Fair question, it may depend on the duration of the LIV contracts.  I know I've read, from Paul Goydos among others, that the PGA Tour players sign a fresh contract every year.  The recent TRO hearings brought a tiny bit of insight into the LIV Tour contracts, but we don't know many details.

[fixyurdivot]

11 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

Fair question, it may depend on the duration of the LIV contracts.  I know I've read, from Paul Goydos among others, that the PGA Tour players sign a fresh contract every year.  The recent TRO hearings brought a tiny bit of insight into the LIV Tour contracts, but we don't know many details.

Mickelson got $200M for one year?  Wow, brilliant, well played Phil .  Kidding aside, they probably have various contract platforms depending who were talking about. I stated earlier that it would be real interesting to see the details of the contracts... and now that some have chosen to move this into the judicial system, we may very well see the details.

[Middler]

3 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

How do you suppose that would happen?

Players who resigned their membership don’t have the korn ferry tour or pga Latin America as options to gain their card, plus they are also suspended which also takes away any Monday qualifying on those tours.

The players that are suspended but haven’t resigned their memberships will have to apply for reinstatement. Do you think PGA commish is going to grant that?

If the players thought they wouldn’t be banned from the tour and possibly the majors they are either lying or ignorant. They were told up front if they failed to obey the rules they created they would be suspended.  

+1. The nonsense many LIV players spout in press conferences is sad, laughable. They defected for more money - period. If they want to play LIV, that's their choice, but they should have no rights to play any PGA events or the majors, since the PGA players are a large part of what made those tournaments premier events. And to say they didn't realize they might lose access to PGA events is lying and ignorant. Most employees can't work for a competitor...

[DaveP043]

2 minutes ago, fixyurdivot said:

Mickelson got $200M for one year?  Wow, brilliant, well played Phil 

The way he's played, he should WISH there were cuts in the LIV events, a Cut doesn't seem nearly as embarrassing as Last.

But as you say, we don't know how long his contract runs.  Also, we've heard that tournament winnings aren't actually given to the players (at least in some cases), they're simply credited against the signing bonus.  At Phil's level of performance, he may have to play LIV for 10 or 15 years before he's "earned" all of that $200M contract.

[Bang60]

4 hours ago, Undershooter said:

They would have to apply for reinstatement and either serve their suspension or request a hearing for a shorter length/ dismissal of it. I think it would be a genius move by Monahan if he cut down on the suspension for anyone who renounced LIV and came back. Who knows if that would actually happen or not though.

Yeah Monahan has to be the bigger MAN, fight fire with fire by offering immediate reinstatement to the PGA tour.