When you know there's a sandbagger in your league, WWYD?

[GregB135]

Let's do our best to try and keep this civil, but this isn't quite a rhetorical question.

Say for example, you play in a full handicap league with a season from April to September. Player X starts the previous season with an 18 handicap. Shows up shooting low 80s to start the season, takes a bunch of money off his competitors, and finishes the season with a cap of 13. Player X then shows up to start the current season reporting a handicap of 18 again, and posts a net 76 to T2 in the first event. Then goes a total of net +9 over four rounds on a non league weekend trip (on really hard courses btw).

This is a pattern of behavior from PLayer X. Numerous members of the league have voiced complaints - though not officially - to the committee members, and yet it continues.

WWYD?

[Placasse61]

35 minutes ago, GregB135 said:

Let's do our best to try and keep this civil, but this isn't quite a rhetorical question.

Say for example, you play in a full handicap league with a season from April to September. Player X starts the previous season with an 18 handicap. Shows up shooting low 80s to start the season, takes a bunch of money off his competitors, and finishes the season with a cap of 13. Player X then shows up to start the current season reporting a handicap of 18 again, and posts a net 76 to T2 in the first event. Then goes a total of net +9 over four rounds on a non league weekend trip (on really hard courses btw).

This is a pattern of behavior from PLayer X. Numerous members of the league have voiced complaints - though not officially - to the committee members, and yet it continues.

WWYD?

Take him to the train station, just kidding. 

[cnosil]

The question I have is how engaged is the committee in the handicapping process?  Are their published league rules and do they address handcapping/sandbagging?    Money leagues are tougher to do this,  but my company league is pretty strict on handicapping and if someone sandbags they will retroactively change the results.   How did he go from a 13 to 18 during the offseason?  Are scores still posted for official handicaps during this time?  Does the league keep their own handicaps or do they follow GHIN?

[GregB135]

1 hour ago, cnosil said:

The question I have is how engaged is the committee in the handicapping process?  Are their published league rules and do they address handcapping/sandbagging?    Money leagues are tougher to do this,  but my company league is pretty strict on handicapping and if someone sandbags they will retroactively change the results.   How did he go from a 13 to 18 during the offseason?  Are scores still posted for official handicaps during this time?  Does the league keep their own handicaps or do they follow GHIN?

Our league uses the MyScorecard app to verify and manage handicaps. I'm pretty sure the app transitioned to WHS from GHIN. Either way, it's supposed to be tough to drive your number up that fast. And equally improbable to shoot on you number 4 rounds in a row on really hard tracks.

[JFish350]

If possible, take last years scores and this years rounds, the 4 scores from "hard courses" played and put them into a handicap calculator. This gives what he's done over the last year or so. next step is kinda tricky, do you confront player X or just take it the committee? Maybe suggest the committee members play with said player for 4-5 rounds. 

Sandbagging drives me nuts but those people are all over the place and I am sure sleep just fine at night. 

[Shankster]

There is only one solution.

 

[GregB135]

3 hours ago, JFish350 said:

Sandbagging drives me nuts but those people are all over the place and I am sure sleep just fine at night. 

He laughs whenever anyone says anything after he finishes ‘in the money’

[Tom the Golf Nut]

He knows what he is doing. He needs to know everyone else does as well. If he finishes the season at 13, then he starts the next season at 13. I would keep a league handicap for everyone. Only scores posted during league play count. If he doesn't like it he can move on. We have done that in leagues I played in many times.

[Shapotomous]

@GregB135 you mention "net" scores in your first post...did you mean gross?

[MattF]

9 hours ago, Tom the Golf Nut said:

He knows what he is doing. He needs to know everyone else does as well. If he finishes the season at 13, then he starts the next season at 13. I would keep a league handicap for everyone. Only scores posted during league play count. If he doesn't like it he can move on. We have done that in leagues I played in many times.

Sounds like the best solution. League caps only not whatever he comes up with the the beginning of the season.

[MrBandit]

On 4/9/2023 at 6:49 AM, GregB135 said:

Let's do our best to try and keep this civil, but this isn't quite a rhetorical question.

Say for example, you play in a full handicap league with a season from April to September. Player X starts the previous season with an 18 handicap. Shows up shooting low 80s to start the season, takes a bunch of money off his competitors, and finishes the season with a cap of 13. Player X then shows up to start the current season reporting a handicap of 18 again, and posts a net 76 to T2 in the first event. Then goes a total of net +9 over four rounds on a non league weekend trip (on really hard courses btw).

This is a pattern of behavior from PLayer X. Numerous members of the league have voiced complaints - though not officially - to the committee members, and yet it continues.

WWYD?

When I was in NYC /CT league, they would monitor your HC and reseed you if they felt you were sandbagging. I seen folks get DQ because they would have 85-100 scores on regular events and then on the championship weekend they would have career lows 72-74 scores.
I was playing in a league in the DFW area, because they didn't have a lot of individual events, folks would have ridiculous high scores, then during the Member/Member or the Championship week, they would have career rounds.  Talked to the board, but they just looked away as just a good week. So unless the club wants to do something about it. your going to have those types of incidents.

 

[Another Steve]

In a work league that used a league handicap (IIRC 85% of the best 10 of the most recent 20 scores) back in the 90’s we had a guy like that. He played multiple leagues with different caps in each plus an official USGA (lower) cap. Our league rules were written such that only scores shot in league play counted. Mid season and end season scores did not count, nor did any other cap.  league caps were used for flighting and low net awards at the outings. In League matches he shot just good enough to win his head to head matches (cash payout at end if season for top 3 winners) and conveniently birdied the hardest holes to cash in on skins which were a side bet and not officially league sanctioned. Every so often he would shoot well enough to win a weekly low net or low gross payout if it didn't move his cap. Then come to the outings and he would clean up on low net, low gross, and skins. Those that participated in skins didn’t care as the skins were actual gross score, not net score (we had a range of 9 hole caps from 2 to 25). He once told me that he knew the exact number he needed to shoot each week to manage his number. 

 Couple of us talked to some players in the other leagues and he did the same stuff there, but there wasn’t much we could do with the way the league rules were written so the team captains got together and had a special league award made up just for him. A wooden plaque with an engraved brass plate with “his name”, “xxxxxgolf league 19xx, sandbagger of the year” and a baggie of sand from one of the bunkers on the course was stapled to it. Heard that he hung the plaque in his office and freely admitted that he “managed his handicap and utilized the rules as-written to his advantage”. At the league meeting after the awards were handed out we almost unanimously changed the rules to specify that if a player had multiple handicaps the league was to use the lowest regardless of where it came from and if a player was later found to not report another handicap they were ejected from the league.  This was later changed when the courses got networked and scores were entered online in the clubhouse. Don’t recall if this was the start of Or predecessor to GHIN but it was a USGA cap that used every round that “you reported“ probably was early 2000’s.  

[SirOliver]

In one of my games, the only scores that count towards your "handicap" are scores that you posted in thaf specific league. This is not necessarily the best option as people can take a break from the league, get a little better, then come back and play, it does stop people from cheating the normal handicap system. One way you could help this is to only count the top 5 or 10 scores out of the latest in this league. Like how GHIN does it. This way, a player cant just purposely tank a round where hes out of the money to improve his averages. 

 

In another league im in, we have a committee since its a large group through the club. A player has been kicked out before because of suspected sandbagging. Maybe yall could do a vote. 

 

If its through the club, the pros should be able to handle this. 

 

Use the USGA probability chart for tournament score odds. They tell you the odds that each handicap will shoot better than "even". Set up a maximum "odd" that a player cant exceed over 2 or 3 rounds and then kick them out if they break it. Ive attached it here

[Oudefart]

Well, for me this is an easy one. And perhaps admittedly speaks to my golf mental health.

I never play in tournaments or for money (some charity scrambles for the cause). In my experience of 30 yrs, there are just too many of these people around. It’s not why I play or what draws me to the game.

I find that if you’re so consumed by saying you won the 14th flight of your club championship and you need to “cheat” to do it, then I don’t need to play with you. I’ve been in rounds where a player in my group is admittedly massaging his index for an upcoming trip with lots of money on the line. When one plays 4-5 rounds a week, it’s pretty easy to move the needle +/- 3-5 points. That’s too much mental hopscotch for me.

In fact, I recently figured out how much more I enjoy the game since I stopped posting scores about 4 yrs ago. I know what I shoot and I play for my own personal expectations.

 

[StrokerAce]

Been in a league for 2 years now. best score with a partner and we use GHIN so you can look up players scores.

Dad & son and my partner and I are the 2 best teams. 

Dad boosts his HC every year and everyone knows it - even the guy running the league! - but his attitude is 'aw shucks, wutareyagunnado?'

Not much money at stake - 50.00 diff between 1st and second (200/150) - but the principal of the matter pisses me off.

We beat them last year even with his BS and they won in a playoff this year but his BS handicap shenanigans got them to the playoff.

I feel like quitting the league if they can't run it right but it sounds like it's like this everywhere.

Hopefully you can find a solution that works. I don't mind losing but let's do it fair and square.

[Tom the Golf Nut]

1 hour ago, Oudefart said:

In fact, I recently figured out how much more I enjoy the game since I stopped posting scores about 4 yrs ago. I know what I shoot and I play for my own personal expectations.

 

I did the same thing two years ago. Chasing a number (0.0) was not fun and actually quite draining mentally and physically. Off to having fun and enjoying myself. Then the virtual tour started and now the match play event, not to mention the Cobra Challenge. So, posting scores are back on the table.  I play to have fun and play the best I can for myself. Do I like the competition, yes. It makes me focus more and play much harder. 

I was just asked to play in our club championship for the third time in as many weeks and I declined for the third time. I enjoy playing and to play well is an accomplishment on its own. But to lose to a foot wedge used a few times, a lost ball that miraculously shows up on the fringe when it was 50 yards deep in the woods is something I don't tolerate when having to play for something. I've seen teams hold on to score cards until someone gives them a heads up on what the low score turned in so far was. Then they fill in what they need to win. I had a team ahead of me and their play was horrendous and turn in a 22 under par round in a scramble. They were even challenged to a two-hole event after to prove they played that well. Then declined and were shocked that they were challenged. Shortly thereafter a fight broke out.  I just avoid being put in those situations because it's not worth it. Golf is supposed to be enjoyable. I'm not making a living at it. 

Funny ........... as I type this, I was just invited to another golf scramble outing. I's customer based so you know I'll be going. 

 

[Subdiver1]

On 4/9/2023 at 6:43 PM, Tom the Golf Nut said:

I would keep a league handicap for everyone. Only scores posted during league play count. If he doesn't like it he can move on.

Our league plays the first 3 rounds to establish league handicap. That adjusts as the season goes.  We had a guy who would either purposely miss a couple of putts when he knew he lost a hole or once he knew he had a match covered would start throwing holes and padding scores so guys got smart, they would give him putts and make sure the 5 or whatever was recorded instead of the 4 putt or whatever. That prevented him from padding his handicap pretty effectively and a couple of seasons back he decided to move on. It was ridiculous though and I feel your pain.  Unfortunately, integrity is like virginity, once you've lost it you cannot get it back and our guys definitely lost his and his reputation follows him. Your guy sounds like ours, sorry to hear there are so many out there.

[BCases]

4 hours ago, StrokerAce said:

Been in a league for 2 years now. best score with a partner and we use GHIN so you can look up players scores.

Dad & son and my partner and I are the 2 best teams. 

Dad boosts his HC every year and everyone knows it - even the guy running the league! - but his attitude is 'aw shucks, wutareyagunnado?'

Not much money at stake - 50.00 diff between 1st and second (200/150) - but the principal of the matter pisses me off.

We beat them last year even with his BS and they won in a playoff this year but his BS handicap shenanigans got them to the playoff.

I feel like quitting the league if they can't run it right but it sounds like it's like this everywhere.

Hopefully you can find a solution that works. I don't mind losing but let's do it fair and square.

You are complaining about their handicaps, yet you beat them anyway. What do you think the people are saying about your team.

[Randall Robbins]

Our Sr. league has you do 5 res to establish, then if you shoot low scores, your number goes up as a result of each round (stableford) based on how much you were over but a bad score does not impact as much so it takes a lot longer to drop your number.  For instance, if you have to pull 48 points (+6) and you shoot even, then you will get bumped up to 52, but if you shoot a round that is for say 40 points, the next week will have you at 46, so you still have to play well to place.  Not perfect, but it does police "surprise" rounds fairly well.

[Franc38]

Reading all of that is funny and weird and rather extraordinary for me... We hardly have any money going in golf (you know, "amateur status" and all that jazz... if you earn sizeable amounts of money through your playing you're a pro and don't have handicap any more, according to the old R&A and probably we take that too much to the heart) and our competitions are almost exclusively of two sorts: club and federal. Club competitions are often in net (stableford of some sort) and gross, with the most prizes for the gross winners -so we have "series" for ranges of handicaps, federal comps are only strokeplay, off scratch and no money on the line, rules officials roaming around and keeping an eye on everything (makes the PGA tour look like a relaxed family outing). Your handicap only comes from playing in these supervised, officially sanctioned by the federation (our local USGA) competitions and the main fear of most people is not sandbagging but "prestige handicaps" that are artificially too low.

A way to keep people interested in comps while not risking to run afoul of the amateur status rules and the sandbagging business is that most prizes are randomly drawn, so the gross winner gets a box of Pro V1's, the net winner a box of Srixon Q-star and some random people get a bag, bottles of prestige wines and so on. Nobody really cares about the net/stableford score for other reasons than the handicap calculation... and so not many would be tempted to "massage" it!

Edited September 11, 2023 by Franc38

[StrokerAce]

17 hours ago, BCases said:

You are complaining about their handicaps, yet you beat them anyway. What do you think the people are saying about your team.

don't be a hater... we post our scores every week and people can look them up and verify them.

as a matter of fact my partner shot a 79 as a 13 hc the week before the final match and he could have waited to post that score since he knew it would bring his cap down but he's got impeccable integrity and posted it, his HC went down 2 strokes and we lost the match by 1. if he doesn't post it we win the match. 

like I said, we play for fun but also play fair.

[BCases]

1 hour ago, StrokerAce said:

don't be a hater... we post our scores every week and people can look them up and verify them.

as a matter of fact my partner shot a 79 as a 13 hc the week before the final match and he could have waited to post that score since he knew it would bring his cap down but he's got impeccable integrity and posted it, his HC went down 2 strokes and we lost the match by 1. if he doesn't post it we win the match. 

like I said, we play for fun but also play fair.

If you do NOT see the irony in complaining about somebody's handicap being too high yet beating them anyway, I do not know what to tell you.

[StrokerAce]

4 minutes ago, BCases said:

If you do NOT see the irony in complaining about somebody's handicap being too high yet beating them anyway, I do not know what to tell you.

Cool with me; next time I want your opinion I'll ask for it.