What is the big fascination with Ben Hogan?

[Goober]

Finding it a little odd that people idolize his swing so much. 

what is up with this cult like fascination of the Ben Hogan swing ?

why don’t people copy the best player in history. Jack Nicklaus versus Ben Hogan 

[CLenahan]

I think that it has to do with the massive popularity of Hogan's Five Lessons, and the swing being a little easier to replicate.

Nicklaus' swing was incredible, but it also defied convention and is difficult for an amateur to replicate, in my opinion.

[Brooky03]

1 hour ago, CLenahan said:

I think that it has to do with the massive popularity of Hogan's Five Lessons

This is the reason, imo.  Hogan was somewhat committed to teaching the golf swing.  Nicklaus, to my knowledge (I could be wrong), wasn't as invested in teaching his swing.  To copy it, you'd be just analyzing film.

To OP's point about copying the swing of the greatest, Ray Allen was the greatest 3-point shooter in NBA history until Curry showed up.  Absolutely nobody should copy Ray Allen's shooting stroke.

[Hook DeLoft]

I'm sure there are different reasons for the fascination.  Some have bought into the idea that Hogan had a "secret."  Personally, I think his only secret was an incredible work ethic combined with the mental discipline and body awareness to make the same swing over and over.  Also, there are stories from his contemporaries that indicate he was a great athlete.  For example, in practice rounds, they would commonly bet on the longest drive on a hole.  Despite not being known as a long hitter, Hogan always seemed to win those bets.  Another told the story that they would play a game in the clubhouse where a piece of currency would be placed in the middle of a table.  On a signal, everyone around the table would try to snatch the bill.  Hogan always won. Others are amazed by his ability to become a great player after being merely good for so long.  Some are taken with his comeback after the car wreck.  Some are impressed by his ability to go from hitting a draw and fighting a hook to playing a dependable fade.  Many find his origin story fascinating:  his father committing suicide when Hogan was young, leaving the family poor and forcing Hogan to work hard as a child and teenager to contribute to the family's existence.  And don't forget, he never had a swing coach. Add in the popularity of Five Lessons and you have the makings of a legend.

I wouldn't suggest any amateur try to copy any great player's swing.  How many amateurs have the the athletic ability and time to make the moves pros make?  How many can spend 8 hours a day grooving a pro swing?  How many can rely on others to take care of all the business of life while they dedicate themselves to honing a golf swing?  How many can spend hours a week in the gym?  How many have private chefs to maximize their diet?  This is where so many Hogan enthusiasts lose the plot.  IF you have Hogan's body and the time, body awareness and discipline to copy his swing, go ahead.

Edited July 21, 2023 by Hook DeLoft
spelling

[revkev]

This is a good question. Jack is my all time favorite but I quickly learned that I couldn’t copy his swing. In retrospect I wasn’t strong or athletic enough. And I was a college athlete so that probably means most people weren’t. He had a very unique swing.

 

You need to remember that Hogan was a golfing generation older than Jack. He had lots of struggles early in his career and once he made it a horrible car accident to overcome. Throw in an elusive personality and a beautiful swing that won golf tournaments and there was something mystical about him. He was said to have a “secret.”

I actually have a retired PGA player at my club who played with Hogan a number of times. He said his “secret” was he out worked everyone and was a ruthless competitor. 
 

 

 

 

[russtopherb]

21 minutes ago, revkev said:

I actually have a retired PGA player at my club who played with Hogan a number of times. He said his “secret” was he out worked everyone and was a ruthless competitor. 

Pretty much. The guy fought a massive hook early in his career and developed a swing that he needed to stay competitive. I find his dedication to practice admirable, but his swing was exactly that - HIS swing. I think too many people get caught up in chasing that, instead of swinging the swing that works for their body and their game.

[Goober]

Great responses.I just find the “excessive”  idolizing of his motion a little strange.Seems like many get very vocal and aggressive for anyone who thinks they know or knew what he did.Personally I think their are swings now on both the LPGA and the PGA tours that are a little more impressive.And worth dissecting imho. I’ve also had Hogan’s book.But it just seems like it is what he felt he was doing versus maybe versus what he was actually doing. 

Edited July 25, 2023 by Goober

[revkev]

28 minutes ago, russtopherb said:

Pretty much. The guy fought a massive hook early in his career and developed a swing that he needed to stay competitive. I find his dedication to practice admirable, but his swing was exactly that - HIS swing. I think too many people get caught up in chasing that, instead of swinging the swing that works for their body and their game.

Yes!  I actually watched Hogan hit balls for a long time at a Senior Tour (Champions for you younger guys) event.  He didn't play in many of those but apparently had some connection to Sleepy Hollow golf club where the event was being held.  It was pretty remarkable to see the precision.  I've followed Nicklaus around the course when he wasn't quite in his prime but still dangerous, in his early 40's - it's hard to imagine but Nicklaus won three majors or had a Hall of Fame career after he turned 40.  I would have loved to have seen him live when he was younger, but he never would play Westchester or Hartford and those were the events near my home growing up.  

For my money Sam Snead had the most beautiful swing of the Hogan, Nelson, Sneed group but its telling that they copied Nelson's swing for the machine.  I saw Snead play but of course Byron was long retired before I was a gleam in my father's eyes.  

 

My former teacher would pick a golfer with a similar build and show videos for comparison's sake during lessons.  For me it was Tom Watson - that made sense because I'm similar size and build, I prefer hitting draws, as Watson did.  If you are going to look at someone else's swing I'd suggest you go for someone with a similar build and forget about trying to copy any current player unless you are committed to a significant strength, fitness plan.  The game has definitely evolved over the years and pro golfers are every bit the athletes as their counterparts in other sports.  Pros in bygone eras were athletically gifted but did not have the time or the scientific knowledge to train like today's players.  They also weren't playing for anywhere near the same money.  

 

They may also have had more fun! 

[EJW]

The reason why Hogan’s swing has been dissected, copied, and emulated is that it is considered by many to be the ultimate golf swing producing power, consistency, efficiency and beauty.  He is considered to be one of the greatest ball strikers who ever played the game. No one considered Nicklaus to be a great ball striker, even Jack.  
Hogan’s book was a bit of an enigma. Though it was a big commercial success, it was not written for the average player. It was written by a man who learned how to keep from hooking the ball. The average player reading it found that their slice hadn’t gotten better, but in fact had gotten worse. If you are a student of the game it is definitely worth reading, just beware as they say… “your actual results may vary.“

 

[RickyBobby_PR]

31 minutes ago, Goober said:

Great responses.I just find the “excessive”  idolizing of his motion a little strange.Seems like many get very vocal and aggressive for anyone who thinks they know or knew what he did.Personally I think their are swings now on both the LPGA and the PGA tours that are a little more impressive.And worth dissecting imho. I’ve also had Hogan’s book.But it just seems like it is what he felt he was doing versus maybe versus what he was actually doing. 

Many pros do things that are opposite of what they feel. Sergio for example feels he is pulling on a chain in transition but his actual swing doesn’t show that. While he gets too flat in transition for what most people need it’s what works for him and he’s a great ball striker.

Morikawa is one of the best iron players on tour. His swing has some uniqueness.

As for Hogan the way he uses the right hand is very telling and an important part of the golf swing. His swing is an anti hook swing. The concept of it is used by a lot of instructors. GG uses hogan, Snead and even former king driver champion Jaime Sadlowski as swing references in what he teaches.

The idolization and over excessive defending of a person isn’t unique to hogan or golf. It’s been a part of sports debates forever. 

[Goober]

1 minute ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Many pros do things that are opposite of what they feel. Sergio for example feels he is pulling on a chain in transition but his actual swing doesn’t show that. While he gets too flat in transition for what most people need it’s what works for him and he’s a great ball striker.

Morikawa is one of the best iron players on tour. His swing has some uniqueness.

As for Hogan the way he uses the right hand is very telling and an important part of the golf swing. His swing is an anti hook swing. The concept of it is used by a lot of instructors. GG uses hogan, Snead and even former king driver champion Jaime Sadlowski as swing references in what he teaches.

The idolization and over excessive defending of a person isn’t unique to hogan or golf. It’s been a part of sports debates forever. 

Bingo.Ricky will swing like Ricky.And Goober will swing like Goober.And Goober has a hard enough time at that. .But getting better daily 

[revkev]

36 minutes ago, EJW said:

The reason why Hogan’s swing has been dissected, copied, and emulated is that it is considered by many to be the ultimate golf swing producing power, consistency, efficiency and beauty.  He is considered to be one of the greatest ball strikers who ever played the game. No one considered Nicklaus to be a great ball striker, even Jack.  
Hogan’s book was a bit of an enigma. Though it was a big commercial success, it was not written for the average player. It was written by a man who learned how to keep from hooking the ball. The average player reading it found that their slice hadn’t gotten better, but in fact had gotten worse. If you are a student of the game it is definitely worth reading, just beware as they say… “your actual results may vary.“

 

Actually Jack is one of the greatest ball strikers ever, statistically.  Most consider him the greatest long iron player, ever.  He needed it.  He was a great, great putter and very long off the tee but until the end of his career his short game was average at best.

 

No one has accused him of having a great swing or one to be emulated but it repeated for him.  

[revkev]

52 minutes ago, Goober said:

Great responses.I just find the “excessive”  idolizing of his motion a little strange.Seems like many get very vocal and aggressive for anyone who thinks they know or knew what he did.Personally I think their are swings now on both the LPGA and the PGA tours that are a little more impressive.And worth dissecting imho. I’ve also had Hogan’s book.But it just seems like it is what he felt he was doing versus maybe versus what he was actually doing. 

A couple of things here - primary TV color guys were young pros when Hogan was wrapping up his career.  He was a legend to them, so they help to carry the myth on.  As younger guys fill those chairs the fascination with Hogan's swing and mystique will fade.  That will be both good and bad I suppose.

Equipment has radically changed since Hogan or Nicklaus' day.  What worked for them may not work as well with modern equipment.  Also the gap between athletic capability and ordinary player has expanded immensely.  There is generationally money involved in professional athletics today.  They have the best training possible, the best diets, sport specific workout programs, etc., etc., etc.  Oh and also the same natural abilities that players in days gone by had now better refined.  

 

I think it's far better to find a good teacher and work with him or her rather than trying to copy what someone else who is far more skilled does.  That's a very difficult row to hoe, IMO.

[EJW]

14 minutes ago, revkev said:

Actually Jack is one of the greatest ball strikers ever, statistically.  Most consider him the greatest long iron player, ever.  He needed it.  He was a great, great putter and very long off the tee but until the end of his career his short game was average at best.

 

No one has accused him of having a great swing or one to be emulated but it repeated for him.  

While, Jack was a great iron player. He was never considered a great ball striker you’re confusing the true distinctions. On numerous occasions, I watched Jack take lessons from his longtime instructor Mr. Jack Grout. 

[revkev]

Just now, EJW said:

While, Jack was a great iron player. He was never considered a great ball striker you’re confusing the true distinctions. On numerous occasions, I watched Jack take lessons from his longtime instructor Mr. Jack Grout. 

Okay - the idea is to get the ball close to the target.  I guess we can quibble over whether a guy who got the ball to go where it was aimed more than anyone else was a great ball striker or a better miss manager.  The numbers don't lie though so how about we agree that Jack had great results - better than anyone not named Tiger Wood's results and between the two it's hard to tell who was better.

 

Jack has always been modest about his own game so I would take anything he said or says about himself with a grain of salt.  I also know that Hogan often said he rarely hit a shot that he was satisfied with.  

 

You will need to enlighten me as to how being a great iron player and being a great ball striker are different BTW.  Is a great ball striker someone who hits it solidly all the time but struggles with alignment?  Jack was also a great driver, long and straight (given his length.)  

[EJW]

Moe Norman, was probably the greatest ball striker who ever lived… if you talking about hitting it at your target more often than anybody who ever played the game.  Great ball striking doesn’t necessarily make you a great player, getting the ball into the hole is the gold standard – and Jack was phenomenal at that. In my opinion, he is still the GOAT.  Tiger Woods said “there were two players who owned their swings, Ben Hogan, and Moe Norman.  I want to own my swing.”

[Caddie1966]

One thing missing in this discussion is putting.  Hogan was not the putter that Jack or Tiger or Nelson was.  Hogan won by being the best ball striker in his era. Period.  He won by hitting the ball better than anyone else.  63 wins total and 6 of his 9 majors AFTER his near fatal accidents in 1949. He was tenacious and his swing is technically one of the best ever.
Another reason his swing is so revered is that it is one of the few that was filmed repeatedly during that time. He also had only his wife Valerie.  They had no children.  She encouraged him to develop his work ethic.  He worked on it constantly and did not have the distractions that todays pros do.

Search YouTube and you can find Byron’s, Sam’s Demaret’s, Moe Norman’s, Bobby Jones’ and a few others but not in the same volume as Hogan’s.  I caddied for Mike Souchak when he was head pro at Oakland Hills in the 60s and was one of the long ball guys from that era and held the 72 hole low record for years.  He played in the 50s with Hogan.  He was in awe of Hogan and his swing.  

[RickyBobby_PR]

2 hours ago, Goober said:

Bingo.Ricky will swing like Ricky.And Goober will swing like Goober.And Goober has a hard enough time at that. .But getting better daily 

Correcf, however can do the samethings the pros do. Even as different as pros swings are they all have commonalities in their swings. This is what AMG has demonstrated in their pros vs ams videos and the shallowing video. The shallowing video was real good at showing how much or how little pro golfers shallow the club, but that they do to some extent.

So things like pressure shift to start the swing and finish that by p2 and start recentering between p2 and top of swing and then move into the lead leg but the end of then backswing are things we can all do and are important to good swings

[cardia10]

I think a lot of the mystique around Hogan is that he "figured it out" on his own without a team or staff of helpers, Trackman and other technology. Basic clubs and hard work. Today's players put in the work, but it is easier for them to find success based on technology and the assistance it provides. 

[revkev]

19 hours ago, EJW said:

Moe Norman, was probably the greatest ball striker who ever lived… if you talking about hitting it at your target more often than anybody who ever played the game.  Great ball striking doesn’t necessarily make you a great player, getting the ball into the hole is the gold standard – and Jack was phenomenal at that. In my opinion, he is still the GOAT.  Tiger Woods said “there were two players who owned their swings, Ben Hogan, and Moe Norman.  I want to own my swing.”

Talk about mystique, Moe Norman has it. What he didn’t do was win golf tournaments. I’ve never been a buyer on him.l even though many people claim he was a great ball striker. 

You don’t win 50 plus golf tournaments without being a great ball striker. Great hall strikers may not have the most most aesthetically pleasing swing. A player not yet mentioned who was a truly great ball striker was Lee Trevino. Ugly swing, great ball striker. 

[Shapotomous]

23 hours ago, revkev said:

.....

My former teacher would pick a golfer with a similar build and show videos for comparison's sake during lessons.  For me it was Tom Watson - that made sense because I'm similar size and build, I prefer hitting draws, as Watson did.  If you are going to look at someone else's swing I'd suggest you go for someone with a similar build and forget about trying to copy any current player unless you are committed to a significant strength, fitness plan.  .......

I wonder if any teachers will be promoting Schefflers footwork with their students?!?!?!   

[Goober]

It’s actually comical a guy on another forum will keep on making his Hogan videos private a day or so after posting them.It’s like some kind of closed door secret congressional meeting we aren’t allowed to see.So bizarre.. it’s a damn golf swing video.I swear this is like some secret cult we aren’t allowed to access.Do they have a secret handshake as well??.What has made grown men amateur golfers act this way.So bizarre 

[Bob Pegram]

On 7/21/2023 at 7:47 AM, CLenahan said:

I think that it has to do with the massive popularity of Hogan's Five Lessons, and the swing being a little easier to replicate.

Nicklaus' swing was incredible, but it also defied convention and is difficult for an amateur to replicate, in my opinion.

Ken Venturi said Hogan had very long arms for his height. Venturi said many golfers can't replicate Hogan's positions. They are impossible for somebody with shorter arms.

[Dave Bonthron]

On 7/27/2023 at 10:37 AM, Bob Pegram said:

Ken Venturi said Hogan had very long arms for his height. Venturi said many golfers can't replicate Hogan's positions. They are impossible for somebody with shorter arms.

Hogan ,Woods. Different, almost ethereal ability. The best ball striker comes from these two. Golf per se is not all about perfect ball striking hence Player, Casper et al won a huge amount of tourneys. Eras change ,Hogan was very modest and stated that the game would move on to an even higher level, it has. The tour pros are phenomenal now. Science helps along with money etc,  etc. Let's enjoy the now!