3rd Category of courses?

[rhaze91]

In watching the U.S open I keep hearing oh it’s public.  While it is technically, but to play it requires a two night stay.  This alone I imagine is another $300 for each night stay, and then in peak season $700 green fee.  Same rules and even higher pricing at Pebble Beach to play that.  

I think it’s time for a third category of resort course list, or a high end public as these prices are more than a vast majority of peoples yearly golf budget total.  $700 for a round just should be evaluated through a different set of standards.

I know its area dependent but what course value should it be to be considered truly open and available to the public?

[Hook DeLoft]

Private, Public, Public for the wealthy. 

I hate to see greens fees that only the wealthy or those who have saved for a "bucket list" experience can afford.  However, the extraordinary fees wouldn't exist if there weren't enough people to support it.  And the high fees only bother me when they are charged for courses commonly accepted as among the greats.  It's a shame that only a few golfers can access the experience of playing places like Pinehurst No. 2 and Pebble Beach.

Edited June 16 by Hook DeLoft

[goaliedad30]

I guess what I don't understand is that even with their current pricing models, the tee sheets at Pebble, Pinehurst, Bandon, et al are essentially fully packed, seven days a week. That means to me that there seem to be sufficient people who can afford it that it's "accessible". It may not be accessible to every golfer on the planet, but there sure are enough that are playing there.

Compare that to Augusta where no amount of money will guarantee you access.

[rhaze91]

I guess I’m more trying to say they shouldn’t be considered or evaluated for comparison to a true public course.  To call it public is technically true, but let’s be real it’s not available as they have created a pricing structure that makes it impossible for most of the public.  Even like a resort course category for the likes of Brandon, pebble, pine hurst, stream songs, the Koehler Wisconsin area, etc….

Is shadow creek truly public.  I guess I look at lists and think yes, Bethpage is public, but like a TPC Sawgrass, is that public .  What about Pasatiempo at almost $400, what would a cutoff for a true public course be?

Edited June 16 by rhaze91
Submit to early

[ShimmyCocoBop]

PRIVATE = a yearly membership

PUBLIC  = daily fee, no rules for dress code, music or alcohol

UPSCALE PUBLIC = daily fee, dress code and other rules, some may have membership offerings

RESORT = requires lodging, daily fee, dress code and other rules

MILITARY = daily fee, must be active or former military or guest of, may have membership offerings

[DaveP043]

48 minutes ago, ShimmyCocoBop said:

PRIVATE = a yearly membership

PUBLIC  = daily fee, no rules for dress code, music or alcohol

UPSCALE PUBLIC = daily fee, dress code and other rules, some may have membership offerings

RESORT = requires lodging, daily fee, dress code and other rules

MILITARY = daily fee, must be active or former military or guest of, may have membership offerings

This list makes a lot of sense to me.  I do wonder how you'd differentiate between public and upscale public, but I do understand the difference you're trying to recognize.  

[RickyBobby_PR]

On 6/16/2024 at 1:45 PM, goaliedad30 said:

I guess what I don't understand is that even with their current pricing models, the tee sheets at Pebble, Pinehurst, Bandon, et al are essentially fully packed, seven days a week. That means to me that there seem to be sufficient people who can afford it that it's "accessible". It may not be accessible to every golfer on the planet, but there sure are enough that are playing there.

Compare that to Augusta where no amount of money will guarantee you access.

Of course they are.
 

1) they are bucket list courses and there are plenty of people who will take a once in a lifetime trip to play them 

2) there are plenty of people on this country that have the money to play them. Not sure why this is a surprise to anybody, except for those who despise those who have worked hard for their success and are enjoying the fruits of their labor. We all should be striving to be as successful as possible. I’ll leave it there to not go down what some may consider political talk

3) their prestige and demand allow for those prices. It’s not different than any other luxuries item or hobby. There are all kinds of levels within hobbies. 

 

[RickyBobby_PR]

On 6/16/2024 at 2:15 PM, rhaze91 said:

I guess I’m more trying to say they shouldn’t be considered or evaluated for comparison to a true public course.  To call it public is technically true, but let’s be real it’s not available as they have created a pricing structure that makes it impossible for most of the public.

It’s public because it’s open to everyone, has nothing to do with cost or ones means.

You can call it high end public or whatever but it’s not different than any other consumer product where there’s low end and high end. Torrey is one price for non residents which is significantly higher than it is for residents. Still public. 
 

There are watches that cost more than some cars, there’s watches that are very affordable. Everyone is free to buy what fits their budgets. 
 

But let’s not forget Pinehurst has multiple courses, number two is the most popular because if it’s history, but to many it’s not even the best one on the resort 

Edited Saturday at 03:45 PM by RickyBobby_PR

[ShimmyCocoBop]

1 hour ago, DaveP043 said:

This list makes a lot of sense to me.  I do wonder how you'd differentiate between public and upscale public, but I do understand the difference you're trying to recognize.  

When I first became an apprentice in the PGA of America back in the mid-80's, those were the delineations that the PGA encouraged us to try to get experience in to become  complete golf professionals.  

The PGAoA did not differentiate the "Public" category like I did above, but there is a definite difference between them that I thought should me mentioned. Consider that "Upscale Public" golf courses are the ones who try to make a player feel like a King For A Day (or Queen), or something along those lines and aren't afraid to charge $100+ per round. 

Additionally, many players don't realize the size of the "Military" category.  At last count, the U.S. Military has 194 courses or 2874 holes across the world, which, according to law,  must all be financially self-sufficient.  Before that law, there were probably another 1/3 more military golf courses.  The U.S. Military also boasts the “World’s Most Dangerous Golf Course“—a single par 3 just below the demilitarized zone separating North and South Korea. (source - Mother Jones).  

In a press interview this week, Nelly Korda used the phrase "having to sack-up" for certain difficult tee shots at the Women's PGA Championship.  I think that a player would have to "sack-up" to play the World's Most Difficult Golf Course (Hole) with the possibility of flying bullets as an additional hazard.

[cnosil]

4 hours ago, ShimmyCocoBop said:

PUBLIC  = daily fee, no rules for dress code, music or alcohol

UPSCALE PUBLIC = daily fee, dress code and other rules, some may have membership offerings

 

So my local $30 muni is an upscale public because they require specific dress code?   

 

[rhaze91]

3 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Of course they are.
 

1) they are bucket list courses and there are plenty of people who will take a once in a lifetime trip to play them 

2) there are plenty of people on this country that have the money to play them. Not sure why this is a surprise to anybody, except for those who despise those who have worked hard for their success and are enjoying the fruits of their labor. We all should be striving to be as successful as possible. I’ll leave it there to not go down what some may consider political talk

3) their prestige and demand allow for those prices. It’s not different than any other luxuries item or hobby. There are all kinds of levels within hobbies. 

I have no issue with people paying what they are asking and what they charge.  If people pay it and they fill the sheet so be it.  I’m just saying to be evaluated as a “public” course  should there be a different standard.  The cost they charge allows them as a better course to create a much better experience, much better course conditions and such.  It allows for renovations and a lot of money to improve the course over time with re-design and such.  Some really great muni’s that are affordable yet are great courses, Bethpage, memorial park in Houston come to mind. Those are much more “public”. 

To say Pebble is true public yes, anyone in public can play for the price. However two night min stay, green fees and all other costs associated with traveling brings that 1 round of golf to probably $4000.  Now I don’t begrudge people for paying that.  I just think when a list comes out on what is a top public course Pebble, Pinehurst, Bandon should be evaluated on a different scale that Bethpage, Memorial Park, Landmand in Nebraska, Lawsonia, etc….

I guess when I think of public it’s a day to day course or even a few times a year course.  Not a once in a lifetime course.

3 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

 

 

[fixyurdivot]

7 minutes ago, rhaze91 said:

I guess when I think of public it’s a day to day course or even a few times a year course.  Not a once in a lifetime course.

I just view public courses as open to public play.  That some are really expensive just reflects it's popularity (i.e. Pebble Beach, Pinehurst, Whistling Straits, and Shadow Creek... $1000.00 ).  They follow the same supply and demand model most businesses do but it does seem some have added gouge to their pricing.

Personally, I get just as much enjoyment playing courses lesser known but equal in challenge and aesthetics for way less money.  

[RickyBobby_PR]

2 hours ago, rhaze91 said:

I have no issue with people paying what they are asking and what they charge.  If people pay it and they fill the sheet so be it.  I’m just saying to be evaluated as a “public” course  should there be a different standard.  The cost they charge allows them as a better course to create a much better experience, much better course conditions and such.  It allows for renovations and a lot of money to improve the course over time with re-design and such.  Some really great muni’s that are affordable yet are great courses, Bethpage, memorial park in Houston come to mind. Those are much more “public”. 

To say Pebble is true public yes, anyone in public can play for the price. However two night min stay, green fees and all other costs associated with traveling brings that 1 round of golf to probably $4000.  Now I don’t begrudge people for paying that.  I just think when a list comes out on what is a top public course Pebble, Pinehurst, Bandon should be evaluated on a different scale that Bethpage, Memorial Park, Landmand in Nebraska, Lawsonia, etc….

I guess when I think of public it’s a day to day course or even a few times a year course.  Not a once in a lifetime course.

 

They are resort courses. That attract a higher end client. They aren’t exclusive in the same way that a private club is. Again Pinehurst is alot more than #2. There are 8 other courses at the resort and they are less expensive. So Pinehurst is a true public resort with varying degrees of courses and fees. 
 

Theres no need to designate some places differently than the rest because of price or that the people who can play there is limited by their financial status.

I have courses near me that are well over $100 and are public. Yet there are golfers who choose not to play them because of the coast. Are they now some level of upscale course? I have a semi private course about 5 mins from where I live that’s about a quarter of the price of the public courses I play.

Your last statement sums it up for me and that is a perception issue based on cost and affordability. Rather than acknowledging that that they are still accessible to the public and doesn’t require a member to get access. 

Edit: what does having a different category of course category solve?

Edited Saturday at 09:47 PM by RickyBobby_PR

[chisag]

... The world is filled with rich azzes that didn't earn a penny of their money. I taught a guy that owned a chain of car dealerships in Chicago and he wanted to do things his way with his lessons. I obliged him but always wondered why anyone would want to take lessons and ignore the advice of someone trying to help them improve. He was with me for a full year. But the reason I mention him is his son never worked a day in his life (according to him) and showed up at a lesson on his way to Dubs Dread which is a more expensive course in the Chicago burbs with slicked back hair using heavy product and enough cologne to kill any misquotes within 100yds and told his Dad to give him some cash. He pulled out a wad of $100 dollar bills and peeled off 5 of them. His son rolled his eyes and said "Gawd I hate you sometimes. Don't be so f'ing cheap, I need at least $500 more for Dubs because we are gonna get faced drunk and eat there too and my friends expect me to pay for drinks." So his Dad peeled off another $500. 

... While I don't begrudge anyone that has worked hard and earned their money, far too many inherited theirs or just got lucky when most of the world works hard just to make ends meet. This kid would be a nightmare on a nice course and is exactly the kind that fill tee sheets on insanely expensive courses. Obviously there are plenty of golfers that earned their money through hard work and respect the course and others playing, or those that save up for a bucket list experience and hopefully they are not paired up with or play in front/behind someone like this rich spoiled brat.

... I am not paying the high prices for Pebble, Pinehurst and several others but Bandon is on my bucket list and I will pay whatever it takes. I guess "open" for the public and "playable" for the public iare two different things. So I like the idea of Upscale Public or Public Resort Course instead of just Public.  

[Preeway]

20 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

But let’s not forget Pinehurst has multiple courses, number two is the most popular because if it’s history, but to many it’s not even the best one on the resort 

This is so true. Planning a trip to Pinehurst in next few years and #2 isn’t even on my list of courses to book. I hear #4 and #8 are much more fun. 

[Hacker60521]

This is a really good post. Personally, I think public is public without regard to price. The fact is that if it’s public, then I can play the course as long as I pay the fee. So basically, being a public course means I have access to it. I wouldn’t start to split hairs in the context of cost. It just invites a game of what’s the price limit to being public vs upscale public. 
 

As so many have pointed out, some of the best public courses have high fees, and I’m okay with that for a couple of reasons. First, some of these courses and facilities are probably very costly to maintain — especially given the volume of players etc they get. Second, golf is international, and these courses have earned the ability to attract players that are willing to pay high prices. Just as much as US players travel to Scotland to play, I’m sure there are non-US players coming to the US for our courses. 
 

Finally, players can come from many backgrounds. To @chisag point, as a fellow Chicagoan, I’ve played some great public and private courses. The slicked back hair, enough cologne to kill mosquitoes within 100 yards,  let’s get faced drunk” players come from many walks of life. The image is perfect for Chicago. That said, I’ve met plenty of self-made “do you know who I am” types, finance bros, and old money who are absolutely selfish and have no respect for others. I’ve also met big millionaires that are some of the nicest people I’ve had the pleasure of meeting. As someone once shared with me, “money can’t buy taste”

 

[RickyBobby_PR]

48 minutes ago, Preeway said:

This is so true. Planning a trip to Pinehurst in next few years and #2 isn’t even on my list of courses to book. I hear #4 and #8 are much more fun. 

Yep. Every golf trip I have seen from various groups 4 and 8 are the main courses and 2 in a e gets thrown in for some today it was played. Iirc titleist when they do their annual even there is on 4 and 2

[DaveP043]

17 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

There are 8 other courses at the resort and they are less expensive.

Actually 9 other courses now that #10 has opened this spring.  Although #1 and perhaps #4 will take weeks to months to recover from the US Open.

 

1 hour ago, Preeway said:

This is so true. Planning a trip to Pinehurst in next few years and #2 isn’t even on my list of courses to book. I hear #4 and #8 are much more fun. 

42 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Yep. Every golf trip I have seen from various groups 4 and 8 are the main courses and 2 in a e gets thrown in for some today it was played. Iirc titleist when they do their annual even there is on 4 and 2

I haven't played #4 since its renovation, but its reputed to be improved from what was already a pretty good course.  #10 is going to be a huge draw, simply because it is new (and a Doak design, so almost certainly really good).  But you can go to the Pinehurst/Southern Pines area and not even go near the resort, and play a bunch of other really good courses.  Still, greens fees in prime season at most of the best will be in the $150 to $250 range, well into the high-end resort range.

[CFreddie]

18 hours ago, chisag said:

... The world is filled with rich azzes that didn't earn a penny of their money. I taught a guy that owned a chain of car dealerships in Chicago and he wanted to do things his way with his lessons. I obliged him but always wondered why anyone would want to take lessons and ignore the advice of someone trying to help them improve. He was with me for a full year. But the reason I mention him is his son never worked a day in his life (according to him) and showed up at a lesson on his way to Dubs Dread which is a more expensive course in the Chicago burbs with slicked back hair using heavy product and enough cologne to kill any misquotes within 100yds and told his Dad to give him some cash. He pulled out a wad of $100 dollar bills and peeled off 5 of them. His son rolled his eyes and said "Gawd I hate you sometimes. Don't be so f'ing cheap, I need at least $500 more for Dubs because we are gonna get faced drunk and eat there too and my friends expect me to pay for drinks." So his Dad peeled off another $500. 

... While I don't begrudge anyone that has worked hard and earned their money, far too many inherited theirs or just got lucky when most of the world works hard just to make ends meet. This kid would be a nightmare on a nice course and is exactly the kind that fill tee sheets on insanely expensive courses. Obviously there are plenty of golfers that earned their money through hard work and respect the course and others playing, or those that save up for a bucket list experience and hopefully they are not paired up with or play in front/behind someone like this rich spoiled brat.

... I am not paying the high prices for Pebble, Pinehurst and several others but Bandon is on my bucket list and I will pay whatever it takes. I guess "open" for the public and "playable" for the public iare two different things. So I like the idea of Upscale Public or Public Resort Course instead of just Public.  

If you plan Bandon correctly, it’s actually not crazy expensive - look in December / January and tee times are ~$150 with replay (note on ANY Bandon course) are half that. In terms of weather, Bandon is a crapshoot year round, so I’d argue December isn’t much worse than mid-spring / fall. Which reminds me, I really need to get back there soon…

2 hours ago, Preeway said:

This is so true. Planning a trip to Pinehurst in next few years and #2 isn’t even on my list of courses to book. I hear #4 and #8 are much more fun. 

Don’t forget #10!  Also, I’d argue the Pines courses (Mid / Needles / Southern) are just as good as everything (besides #2).  

[RickyBobby_PR]

2 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

Actually 9 other courses now that #10 has opened this spring.  Although #1 and perhaps #4 will take weeks to months to recover from the US Open.

 

I haven't played #4 since its renovation, but its reputed to be improved from what was already a pretty good course.  #10 is going to be a huge draw, simply because it is new (and a Doak design, so almost certainly really good).  But you can go to the Pinehurst/Southern Pines area and not even go near the resort, and play a bunch of other really good courses.  Still, greens fees in prime season at most of the best will be in the $150 to $250 range, well into the high-end resort range.

Yeah that area is filled with great courses at all kinds of prices. One of my favorite golf trips with guys I used to work with was to Pinehurst area and we didn’t play any of the courses at Pinehurst.

 

[Swood1994]

Regardless if you can afford it or not, it’s public because it truly is open to anyone. There’s no amount of money that can get you onto pga tour level private clubs. You need a connection of sorts and likely still need to pay that person the same amount to play as a thank you for hosting you. 

On a different topic but one of the same vein, isn’t this what makes golf truly amazing? We as amateurs have the chance to play some of the same courses where history was made. While some/most of those public courses are expensive it allows us a sliver of perspective when we can try and recreate some of the best shots in the history of the game from the exact same place they happened.

For me.. that’s priceless.

[Preeway]

7 hours ago, CFreddie said:

If you plan Bandon correctly, it’s actually not crazy expensive - look in December / January and tee times are ~$150 with replay (note on ANY Bandon course) are half that. In terms of weather, Bandon is a crapshoot year round, so I’d argue December isn’t much worse than mid-spring / fall. Which reminds me, I really need to get back there soon…

Although you can in fact get crummy weather on any day on the Oregon Coast, the number of rainy days June-September is far less than October-May. Not really a crap shoot so much but definitely far from a guarantee for good weather during any month of the year. If you can handle rain and wind, save some money and play Mar-May or October-November. I wouldn’t risk Mid November through February unless you are good with getting wet as there are few days of zero rain during that stretch. 

[colombiafrank]

I'd like to jump into this interesting conversation. I agree that by definition, a public course means that everyone has access to it, regardless of whether they can afford it or not. In this context, "public" does not mean "state-owned" or "free," but rather "accessible to the public."

However, there can be quite a difference in who can afford to play golf in different parts of the world. For example, in Colombia (where I live), there is a strong class division, and golf has historically been a sport for the wealthy. Most golf courses belong to private clubs. As @Swood1994 mentioned, money alone can't get you into these clubs. Being a member implies having money, which usually means it runs in your family, or you are a politician or an established businessperson.

There are very few public courses, and they are not widely known because most citizens have been culturally excluded from the sport. But of course the fees to play in a public course in Colombia are so much cheaper than in the US or Europe. So I don't know if a "high-end public course" category would fit here...

[RickyBobby_PR]

54 minutes ago, colombiafrank said:

So I don't know if a "high-end public course" category would fit here...

Even if for whatever reason that category was created by someone somewhere it accomplishes nothing other than putting a label on something to make someone feel happy about a label on a course. 
 

It doesn’t make it more or less accessible. The people who can’t afford to play it or would only play it as a bucket list item doesn’t change. It doesn’t stop professional tours or the two ruling bodies who host opens or the pga of America from hosting their championships on them.

It’s a feel good label