What equipment are you thinking about?

[GolfSpy_BEN]

11 minutes ago, Jim Shaw said:

great round, how many greens in reg did you hit? 

11/18

[Javs]

10 minutes ago, Ben Joest said:

With the caveat that the crack about 2 putts was meant to be tongue-in-cheek, your question got me curious, so I looked it up on the shot scope app. The first putt distance of each of my 2-putts today was:

1st: 21'

3rd: 15'

6th: 26'

7th: 19'

8th:  9'

11th: 10'

12th: 10'

13th: 16'

14th: 7'

16th: 12'

17th: 11'

 

For the purposes of this query, I would say that while I understand the make percentage stats do not support this statement, I believe it is reasonable to think I could/should have made the 4 1st putts that were 10' and under. 

 

To keep expectations in perspective: On average PGA Tour pros make 99% of 2-foot putts, 96% of 3-foot putts, 88% of 4-foot putts and 77% of 5-foot putts according to strokes gained pioneer, Mark Broadie. From 10 feet their one putt percentage is 40%, 23% from 15 feet, 15% from 20 feet, 7% from 30 feet, 4% from 40 feet, 3% from 50 feet and 2% from 60 feet.

And if you look at a standard 72-hole PGA Tour tournament as a whole you will find that on average pros make only 4.4 putts from over 10 feet and 1.2 putts from over 20 feet per event.

Edited July 17, 2023 by Javs

[cnosil]

2 minutes ago, Ben Joest said:

 I believe it is reasonable to think I could/should have made the 4 1st putts that were 10' and under. 

 

It is reasonable to think that you could make them during the round; for me it isn't reasonable to think I should have made them after the round unless my long term stats indicate that I have a problem at a distance.  

[Javs]

3 minutes ago, cnosil said:

It is reasonable to think that you could make them during the round; for me it isn't reasonable to think I should have made them after the round unless my long term stats indicate that I have a problem at a distance.  

We all think “I should have made that”. However, reality is it depends. Was it a downhiller on bikini waxed fast greens. Did you leave it short. Was it even online. I usually try to limit should have to it lipped out and it could have gone in. Other than that, there was no way it was going in anyways so, I move on and try to make the next one.

[GolfSpy_BEN]

2 minutes ago, cnosil said:

It is reasonable to think that you could make them during the round; for me it isn't reasonable to think I should have made them after the round unless my long term stats indicate that I have a problem at a distance.  

Fair and valid point. Nonetheless, 31 putts tells me, despite the general good feelings I have about this round, that there is still work to be done. Whether it be holing more putts or hitting approaches/pitches/chips closer to the hole. It is best/worst part about dissecting any given round. The work is never truly done.

[Jim Shaw]

13 minutes ago, Javs said:

To keep expectations in perspective: On average PGA Tour pros make 99% of 2-foot putts, 96% of 3-foot putts, 88% of 4-foot putts and 77% of 5-foot putts according to strokes gained pioneer, Mark Broadie. From 10 feet their one putt percentage is 40%, 23% from 15 feet, 15% from 20 feet, 7% from 30 feet, 4% from 40 feet, 3% from 50 feet and 2% from 60 feet.

And if you look at a standard 72-hole PGA Tour tournament as a whole you will find that on average pros make only 4.4 putts from over 10 feet and 1.2 putts from over 20 feet per event.

I understand all those stats, and yes they are correct, however the average changes dramatically on the winners of the events and even the top 10-15 finishers. That is where I want to be, even in the competitions I play in. The player that putts the best those weeks usually wins. 

[cnosil]

2 minutes ago, Javs said:

We all think “I should have made that”. However, reality is it depends. Was it a downhiller on bikini waxed fast greens. Did you leave it short. Was it even online. I usually try to limit should have to it lipped out and it could have gone in. Other than that, there was no way it was going in anyways so, I move on and try to make the next one.

I find this type of conversation interesting; I like to understand how people manage their thoughts around the course.  This is why I asked.   I personally feel this falls under the mental side of the game and maintaining a good mindset across all 18 holes.  

[Jim Shaw]

2 minutes ago, Ben Joest said:

Fair and valid point. Nonetheless, 31 putts tells me, despite the general good feelings I have about this round, that there is still work to be done. Whether it be holing more putts or hitting approaches/pitches/chips closer to the hole. It is best/worst part about dissecting any given round. The work is never truly done.

and knowing that is the first step... always work to be done....

 

[Javs]

4 minutes ago, cnosil said:

I find this type of conversation interesting; I like to understand how people manage their thoughts around the course.  This is why I asked.   I personally feel this falls under the mental side of the game and maintaining a good mindset across all 18 holes.  

Agree and find these type of conversations the best!

[Javs]

6 minutes ago, Jim Shaw said:

I understand all those stats, and yes they are correct, however the average changes dramatically on the winners of the events and even the top 10-15 finishers. That is where I want to be, even in the competitions I play in. The player that putts the best those weeks usually wins. 

Agree, but most guys only peak a few times a year. While we all work to be the best we can. I find it healthy to have realistic expectations to avoid undue frustration. I realize I’m not going to make 90 percent of the 10 to 17 footers I face. However, if I roll in a few or a great par save or eagle putt; that is a real win!

[cnosil]

3 minutes ago, Ben Joest said:

Fair and valid point. Nonetheless, 31 putts tells me, despite the general good feelings I have about this round, that there is still work to be done. Whether it be holing more putts or hitting approaches/pitches/chips closer to the hole. It is best/worst part about dissecting any given round. The work is never truly done.

True.  It is a complex assessment that requires you to look at everything and not just something like number of putts, FW hit and GIR.   How did the tee shot impact the approach and how close was the approach from various distances, how close were the chips,  how far was the 3 putt and the second putt.  

 

 

[Jim Shaw]

Just now, Javs said:

Agree, but most guys only peak a few times a year. While we all work to be the best we can. I find it healthy to have realistic expectations to avoid undue frustration. I realize I’m not going to make 90 percent of the 10 to 17 footers I face. However, if I roll in a few or a great par save or eagle putt; that is a real win!

a lot of true statements... especially the "peaking" comment, however I would like to peak at the correct time, when it comes to putting I have really solid mechanics that my coach and I work on and fine tune on a regular basis, for those times when I am not peaking at least I have mechanics to rely on. Then when mechanics seque to feel, watch out, 25-28 putts per round and great things happen. 

Undue frustration is real, I understand that however the only way to avoid that frustration, in my opinion is to avoid competition. and i am not ready for that at this stage in my golf journey. 

[GolfSpy_BEN]

1 minute ago, cnosil said:

I find this type of conversation interesting; I like to understand how people manage their thoughts around the course.  This is why I asked.   I personally feel this falls under the mental side of the game and maintaining a good mindset across all 18 holes.  

Granted it took a number of years/rounds to get here, but I don't feel like I get upset or aggravated on the course much anymore. I know I've posted about it in other threads, but this year especially I approach each round/shot with what I've been calling the goldfish mentality, i.e. forget about a shot good or bad 10 seconds after I hit it. Move on to the next one with a clean slate. During today's round with the putts, I used that 10 seconds to process where the putt wound up versus where I was aiming or the speed I hit it with. I then make a mental note and move on. That coupled with more consistent practice habits has done wonders for my game and lowered my index to the lowest it's ever been.

[Jim Shaw]

11 minutes ago, cnosil said:

True.  It is a complex assessment that requires you to look at everything and not just something like number of putts, FW hit and GIR.   How did the tee shot impact the approach and how close was the approach from various distances, how close were the chips,  how far was the 3 putt and the second putt.  

 

 

Well, let's just simplify, break it down a bit and not get overwhelmed, it is a a process like anything else, no more no less, one foot in front of the other, all the shot link stats are a tool, a tool to show us if we work on "this" it will help "that" that is all... 

[Jim Shaw]

12 minutes ago, Ben Joest said:

Granted it took a number of years/rounds to get here, but I don't feel like I get upset or aggravated on the course much anymore. I know I've posted about it in other threads, but this year especially I approach each round/shot with what I've been calling the goldfish mentality, i.e. forget about a shot good or bad 10 seconds after I hit it. Move on to the next one with a clean slate. During today's round with the putts, I used that 10 seconds to process where the putt wound up versus where I was aiming or the speed I hit it with. I then make a mental note and move on. That coupled with more consistent practice habits has done wonders for my game and lowered my index to the lowest it's ever been.

i love that, lesson learned for all of us...

[cnosil]

21 minutes ago, Jim Shaw said:

I understand all those stats, and yes they are correct, however the average changes dramatically on the winners of the events and even the top 10-15 finishers. That is where I want to be, even in the competitions I play in. The player that putts the best those weeks usually wins. 

I don't think that is necessarily true but we have had that discussion before.   You also have to look at whether the player is streaky or consistent.  This would require a look at strokes gained over weeks, the standard deviation, and the range of values.   For example Scheffler is consistent but below average putter;  Rahm is a better putter overall but less consistent week to week.  

[cnosil]

7 minutes ago, Jim Shaw said:

Well, let's just simplify, break it down a bit and not get overwhelmed, it is a a process like anything else, no more no less, one foot in front of the other, all the shot link stats are a tool, a tool to show us if we work on "this" it will help "that" that is all... 

Agree; stats are a tool to see where to improve.  You rely on counts of FW, GIR, and putts and I think there are other metrics that provide a more telling view. 

[Jim Shaw]

1 minute ago, cnosil said:

Agree; stats are a tool to see where to improve.  You rely on counts of FW, GIR, and putts and I think there are other metrics that provide a more telling view. 

possibly however they won't be used by this guy until possibly october, give me a winter to engraine it....

[Javs]

25 minutes ago, Jim Shaw said:

a lot of true statements... especially the "peaking" comment, however I would like to peak at the correct time, when it comes to putting I have really solid mechanics that my coach and I work on and fine tune on a regular basis, for those times when I am not peaking at least I have mechanics to rely on. Then when mechanics seque to feel, watch out, 25-28 putts per round and great things happen. 

Undue frustration is real, I understand that however the only way to avoid that frustration, in my opinion is to avoid competition. and i am not ready for that at this stage in my golf journey. 

Good comments. I never brought up avoiding competition. Competition is one of the things I love about this sport. I meant frustration in the journey of getting better. I believe that realistic expectations in my ability and journey to get better keep me on the path. The path to success within my goals and expectations. Avoiding frustration is part of the mental process. 

[Jim Shaw]

11 minutes ago, Javs said:

Good comments. I never brought up avoiding competition. Competition is one of the things I love about this sport. I meant frustration in the journey of getting better. I believe that realistic expectations in my ability and journey to get better keep me on the path. The path to success within my goals and expectations. Avoiding frustration is part of the mental process. 

I understand, and didnt think you were avoiding competition, it is just one thing that a friend of mine told me when I was whinning about playing poorly... it stuck with me.

[Javs]

12 minutes ago, Jim Shaw said:

I understand, and didnt think you were avoiding competition, it is just one thing that a friend of mine told me when I was whinning about playing poorly... it stuck with me.

Understand 

[chisag]

34 minutes ago, cnosil said:

Agree; stats are a tool to see where to improve.  You rely on counts of FW, GIR, and putts and I think there are other metrics that provide a more telling view. 

 

... As you know I am almost anti stat, at least for myself. If you follow the philosophy that every shot is the most important shot most know where they need work and where they excel. One of the reasons I pay no attention to putting stats is if I have an 8 footer that breaks a few inches, I expect to make that putt every single time. I know I can set it just outside the hole and if it breaks less than I think it drops in the high side and if more than I think it drops in the low side and if it breaks just like I think it falls dead center. But faced with a 5 foot putt with 3 feet of break my chances drop exponentially, especially on grains Bermuda.

... Fwiw, I very honestly think I can make every putt but of course I don't. Yet that mindset leaves zero room for doubt and gives me the best chance to make every putt. About the only time a missed putt bothers me is because I am a die in the hole putter, leaving an uphill or level putt inside 10 feet just short but dead in the hole. I chastise myself then immediately forget it, although I do put it in my memory bank for the nest rounds. 

... I would add I have shot under par with around 20 putts and also around 30 putts but it is the where and when that makes all the difference. If I am on a par 5 in two with a 90 footer facing a tier and a huge break that I have little chance of getting down in two and if I leave it short of the tier, I am looking at possibly 3 more putts after it rolls 10 feet past the hole, I would never 4 putt in that situation. So rolling the fist putt 10 or more feet past and missing the difficult breaking come back putt for a 3 putt is irrelevant given the circumstances. If I am on a par 5 in two with a 90 footer that is flat and gently breaks to the hole and cozy my eagle putt close for a tap in birdie, 2 putts are irrelevant. And if I am on the fringe in two on a par 5 with a 90 foot putt to a tap in birdie, that 1 putt is equally irrelevant.  That's 3 very similar distances and 1, 2 or 3 putts are acceptable with given pin placements and the contour of the green. Same scenario on a par 4 with a 90 footer and I know I hit a really bad approach shot. I don't need stats to tell me these things. But then again, I never liked homework! 

 

[Jim Shaw]

4 minutes ago, chisag said:

 

... As you know I am almost anti stat, at least for myself. If you follow the philosophy that every shot is the most important shot most know where they need work and where they excel. One of the reasons I pay no attention to putting stats is if I have an 8 footer that breaks a few inches, I expect to make that putt every single time. I know I can set it just outside the hole and if it breaks less than I think it drops in the high side and if more than I think it drops in the low side and if it breaks just like I think it falls dead center. But faced with a 5 foot putt with 3 feet of break my chances drop exponentially, especially on grains Bermuda.

... Fwiw, I very honestly think I can make every putt but of course I don't. Yet that mindset leaves zero room for doubt and gives me the best chance to make every putt. About the only time a missed putt bothers me is because I am a die in the hole putter, leaving an uphill or level putt inside 10 feet just short but dead in the hole. I chastise myself then immediately forget it, although I do put it in my memory bank for the nest rounds. 

... I would add I have shot under par with around 20 putts and also around 30 putts but it is the where and when that makes all the difference. If I am on a par 5 in two with a 90 footer facing a tier and a huge break that I have little chance of getting down in two and if I leave it short of the tier, I am looking at possibly 3 more putts after it rolls 10 feet past the hole, I would never 4 putt in that situation. So rolling the fist putt 10 or more feet past and missing the difficult breaking come back putt for a 3 putt is irrelevant given the circumstances. If I am on a par 5 in two with a 90 footer that is flat and gently breaks to the hole and cozy my eagle putt close for a tap in birdie, 2 putts are irrelevant. And if I am on the fringe in two on a par 5 with a 90 foot putt to a tap in birdie, that 1 putt is equally irrelevant.  That's 3 very similar distances and 1, 2 or 3 putts are acceptable with given pin placements and the contour of the green. Same scenario on a par 4 with a 90 footer and I know I hit a really bad approach shot. I don't need stats to tell me these things. But then again, I never liked homework! 

 

never liked homework eh lol...

one of my favourite stories and one that sticks with me is when I was listening to hank haney on xm radio many years ago. It was a monday morning and I guess in the weekend tournament Rory McElroy had layed up to a number on the 72nd hole. Hank went up one side of him and down the other, "we are not playing in Trevino's era" Hank screamed... "we have shot link and that is science, and science tells us the closer we get to the green the more birdies we get" so from that day forward I have been working on my 40-60-80 yard shots and getting as close to par 4's and par 5's as i can and I honestly believe it is one area to work on that helped has kept me competitive.

 

[chisag]

1 minute ago, Jim Shaw said:

never liked homework eh lol...

one of my favourite stories and one that sticks with me is when I was listening to hank haney on xm radio many years ago. It was a monday morning and I guess in the weekend tournament Rory McElroy had layed up to a number on the 72nd hole. Hank went up one side of him and down the other, "we are not playing in Trevino's era" Hank screamed... "we have shot link and that is science, and science tells us the closer we get to the green the more birdies we get" so from that day forward I have been working on my 40-60-80 yard shots and getting as close to par 4's and par 5's as i can and I honestly believe it is one area to work on that helped has kept me competitive.

 

... I actually refused to do homework til college and it cost me several times. I failed the 5th grade and had to go to Sumer school so that was a lesson learned. Then my senior year in high school I was put in the college prep English class and complained to the guidance counselor I was a dumb jock QB and in waaaay over my head even though I would be going to college on a football scholarship. She was sympathetic put me in a standard English class. Now my graduating class was only about 225 students but when we took the SAT's I had the highest SAT in the school. To say the guidance counselor was furious would an understatement and back into college prep I went . But I still refused to do homework. I always felt after school was football, basketball, baseball and MY time. 

... I am not even sure I have a left side of my brain. And even though I pay no attention to stats I am an avid reader and watcher of anything golf* and I am always up to learn something new. My game was changed too by Broadie and I credit that piece of the puzzle for getting me to a + index. 

* I can't do podcasts because my right brain almost immediately wanders. 

 

[Rappers]

Well, when my ship comes in (maybe next year) I will be thinking some new equipment. My driver shaft has a split in it and is taped over at present, so sooner or later I'm going to have to get a new driver. Thinking of a Cobra Aerojet, the reviews have been excellent for both distance and forgiveness. Love to get a new set of irons as well if my budget allows because as a senior golfer I feel maybe a bit more oomph would be good for my game. The Mizuno Hot Metals or Srixon Z4s look like contenders with a regular graphite shaft. 

[KB13]

Its about time that I replace my wedges - I have been playing the TM Hi-toe for a couple years now and have really seen my wedge game improve. But with MGS most wanted wedge being the Milled grind, I might make a change and try one out. 

[cnosil]

9 hours ago, chisag said:

 

... As you know I am almost anti stat, at least for myself. If you follow the philosophy that every shot is the most important shot most know where they need work and where they excel. One of the reasons I pay no attention to putting stats is if I have an 8 footer that breaks a few inches, I expect to make that putt every single time. I know I can set it just outside the hole and if it breaks less than I think it drops in the high side and if more than I think it drops in the low side and if it breaks just like I think it falls dead center. But faced with a 5 foot putt with 3 feet of break my chances drop exponentially, especially on grains Bermuda.

... Fwiw, I very honestly think I can make every putt but of course I don't. Yet that mindset leaves zero room for doubt and gives me the best chance to make every putt. About the only time a missed putt bothers me is because I am a die in the hole putter, leaving an uphill or level putt inside 10 feet just short but dead in the hole. I chastise myself then immediately forget it, although I do put it in my memory bank for the nest rounds. 

... I would add I have shot under par with around 20 putts and also around 30 putts but it is the where and when that makes all the difference. If I am on a par 5 in two with a 90 footer facing a tier and a huge break that I have little chance of getting down in two and if I leave it short of the tier, I am looking at possibly 3 more putts after it rolls 10 feet past the hole, I would never 4 putt in that situation. So rolling the fist putt 10 or more feet past and missing the difficult breaking come back putt for a 3 putt is irrelevant given the circumstances. If I am on a par 5 in two with a 90 footer that is flat and gently breaks to the hole and cozy my eagle putt close for a tap in birdie, 2 putts are irrelevant. And if I am on the fringe in two on a par 5 with a 90 foot putt to a tap in birdie, that 1 putt is equally irrelevant.  That's 3 very similar distances and 1, 2 or 3 putts are acceptable with given pin placements and the contour of the green. Same scenario on a par 4 with a 90 footer and I know I hit a really bad approach shot. I don't need stats to tell me these things. But then again, I never liked homework! 

 

  Most of what you discussed is course management and expectation management during a round. I don’t disagree with anything you said.  

Your I don’t like homework implies that you don’t practice to improve your skills.  I’ll interpret that that to mean that you are happy with your skills as they currently exist and not actively trying to get better.  Going back to your instructor days, how would you assesses a fairly talented player to determine where they needed to improve?  
 

This starts to dive into what can help a player versus what can make a player better.  Technique versus skill building.  Mental versus physical.  Without some form of measurement (stats) how do you determine better?  
 

keeping in line with this thread, do I need a new putter, do I need to work on technique, or do I need to build skills? 

[chisag]

2 hours ago, cnosil said:

  Most of what you discussed is course management and expectation management during a round. I don’t disagree with anything you said.  

Your I don’t like homework implies that you don’t practice to improve your skills.  I’ll interpret that that to mean that you are happy with your skills as they currently exist and not actively trying to get better.  Going back to your instructor days, how would you assesses a fairly talented player to determine where they needed to improve?  
 

This starts to dive into what can help a player versus what can make a player better.  Technique versus skill building.  Mental versus physical.  Without some form of measurement (stats) how do you determine better?  
 

keeping in line with this thread, do I need a new putter, do I need to work on technique, or do I need to build skills? 

 

... It is pretty amazing how differently we think. Not doing school homework has nothing to do with sports and practice. I have no idea how you interpret that to mean I am not actively trying to get better. I had zero desire to get better at a subject I had little interest in. I, like most all athletes do have a desire to get better at any sport I play. Because of 2 back surgeries it is difficult for me to stand in one spot on a range and practice. I need to move and stay flexible and will take 2 or 3 swings on the course during a practice round which I find it much more valuable than the range. But the truth is before my first back surgery I always liked playing and learning as I go more than practice. Practice at the range at that point in my journey was necessary, but I can't say I really enjoyed it. 

... I was also an instructor at a range before my back surgeries, I was not a golf coach and didn't work at a golf course. My job was to give my student the skills both physical and mental they required to play better and this almost always was dictated by what they wanted to improve. Most of my students came from word of mouth and were high/mid index professionals that were older and picked up golf later in life. Several wanted to be good enough to not get embarrassed during business rounds with clients. I only taught a handful of low index players and they were mostly fine tuning lessons. 

"Technique versus skill building.  Mental versus physical.  Without some form of measurement (stats) how do you determine better?" I interpret this to mean you never played another sport. See how that works?   There is no stock answer to those questions. A good athlete does them all. Technique and skill go hand in hand. We have all seen athletes with superior physical skills and poor mental skills like Jeff George, one of the most gifted passers I ever saw play. And you seem to miss the obvious. Without stats how do you determine better? I didn't need homework to understand a 68 is better than an 88. You don't need stats to tell you hitting more greens and fairways, pitching and chipping closer to the hole and making putts is better. Maybe you do?

"keeping in line with this thread, do I need a new putter, do I need to work on technique, or do I need to build skills?"

I have no idea if you need a new putter. Does you current putter fit your stroke with the right weight, length and balance? Do you have confidence looking at it behind the ball? Do you have confidence in it while stroking your putt. After stroking your putt? Since I have no idea of your skill level or how consistent your stroke is, this is an impossible question to answer. I could of course make the same argument I always make to you. All of them are important so which one feels best and makes the most putts with the stroke you have? 

[funkyjudge]

11 hours ago, chisag said:

 

... I actually refused to do homework til college and it cost me several times. I failed the 5th grade and had to go to Sumer school so that was a lesson learned. Then my senior year in high school I was put in the college prep English class and complained to the guidance counselor I was a dumb jock QB and in waaaay over my head even though I would be going to college on a football scholarship. She was sympathetic put me in a standard English class. Now my graduating class was only about 225 students but when we took the SAT's I had the highest SAT in the school. To say the guidance counselor was furious would an understatement and back into college prep I went . But I still refused to do homework. I always felt after school was football, basketball, baseball and MY time. 

... I am not even sure I have a left side of my brain. And even though I pay no attention to stats I am an avid reader and watcher of anything golf* and I am always up to learn something new. My game was changed too by Broadie and I credit that piece of the puzzle for getting me to a + index. 

* I can't do podcasts because my right brain almost immediately wanders. 

 

You were a stubborn young SOB, weren’t you?

[chisag]

3 minutes ago, funkyjudge said:

You were a stubborn young SOB, weren’t you?

 

... LOL, I certainly was.