Demystified Putting/Green Reading for Me

[saz0418]

I wanted to share my experience with improving my putting this Summer, with the hope that it might help you, too.

This is more about the black-art of green reading than about any specific technique or putting stroke.  

Here is where it started:  I always felt like I was a better than average putter-- or maybe at least better than my buddies.   This summer, I sort of felt like I was in hit-and-hope mode.   I purchased a green-book for my home course.  And I *made* a green book for the courses that I played more frequently.  This helped-- until I got to courses that I didn't play a lot, and suddenly I was lost.    So, I embarked on trying to find a way to read greens.   The Engineer (retired) in me said that grass and slope and stimp and speed have been around for decades.  The physics should be really well understood.  And still, you go look for how to read greens and what you find will be of very little practical use.  Look at the terrain as you walk up.   Imagine where water will run.   Yeah, great. 

I started looking at AimPoint.  I hoped I could find something simpler-- because I have buddies that foot-read, and they still don't seem to putt great.   In my search about AimPoint, I found a teaching pro that walked through an extended tutorial on plumb-bobbing.    Here was my thought:  If I can plumb-bob, at least I have a starting point, and I can figure out how the real "read" varies from what I see plumb-bobbing--and then keep  some notes.  Then I won't be (as) lost.   I have notes I carry on chipping distances and my club distance matrix and my green book. What's one more sheet if it helps, right?

So, I put a putting green in my driveway (with 2 - 3 % degrees of slope), and started studying putts between 3 and 10 feet.  Then I took those notes and went to my putting practice green at my course, and tested what I learned in the driveway on real grass.   The results were surprising-- and not what I expected. 

Here are my findings:  for putts on 9/10 stimp greens and 2 -3 degrees of slope (which I think are the most common),  the plumb bob technique actually GIVES you pretty much the correct line.   What I found is you need to then adjust the speed  depending on where you are on the clock face.   And, from there, you can find adjustments for more or less steep greens (or faster or slower).    I commonly, now, have about 26 - 32 putts per round.   I think this puts me in the positive strokes-gained area compared to averages.   I still 3 putt once in awhile.   Rarely inside 20 feet.   I have had as few as 22 putts in a round (using this method).  I have had 11 putts for 9 holes a couple of times.   

The caveat I would give you is you need to find your own speed for the line that plumb-bobbing shows you.    I think it will be sort of indvidual--- but once you have it, you have it.  Here is an example.    On a putt from 10:00 on the clock,  I know I get the line from plumb-bobbing-- and then the speed (for me) is 1/3 of the length of the putt.  So you can pace it or estimate it-- but that's my line and distance (aim point), and if I execute it,  the pull falls.  Pretty much every time.     I would give you all the reads, here, but (1) I do think it's somewhat individual and (2) I still want to take money off my buddies, so I am not giving away the secrets!  

Here are some supporting notes:

• you need to know your dominant eye, and then you need to understand how to correctly plumb-bob. You can find both of these  on YouTube pretty easily.    Key to this is to understand how your putter hangs directly straight up and down.   I was testing out a new (old) putter this week and was reading putts completely incorrectly (and missing)  before I realized I didn't have the putter oriented correctly.   It matters.   
• Focus on putts from 3 - 10 feet.   PGA pros make less than 50 % of putts outside of about 7-8 feet.  The stats back that up.   The biggest impact you will have on your scores is to make more 3 -7 footers--- and this technique is really good in that range.   
• Once you learn how to plumb-bob as a technique,  the first thing to get good at is finding the straight putt (fall-line).   From there, you can judge direction of break.   Get below the hole and hold the putter off your naval and then walk right or left until it bisects the hole.  That's your straight putt. 
• I have a small cheat-sheet I refer to that has the reads/speeds for each position around the clock face.   I thought it would be more complicated than that, but I think the plum-bob technique varies slightly depending on the slope you are standing on when you read.  So, say, 8:00 vs. 8:30 seems to (mostly) take care of itself. 
• This technique *does* have some limitations.   It is better on greens with (somewhat) consistent tilt.    Greens that are real undulating can present some difficulties.  Still, I will try to get a decent read from about 6 - 10 feet out as the putt nears the hole.   It still helps-- it just won't give you the line.   In fact, you need to try (as much as possible) to stand on the slope that represents the slope near the hole.  This can be challenging if you have to stand on an apron or collar (or another slope) to get behind the ball.  But, its adaptable most of the time.   
• My putter seems to hang pretty straight to the point where I can read using the right edge or the left edge of the shaft.  That's been helpful in seeing the line in relation to the hole.  
• I plan to experiment with some rules-of-thumb for more or less slope.    For instance, it seems like from 90 degrees to the slope (3:00 or 9:00 on the clock face) on  a fast green or one with more slope (where I am afraid the putt will get away from me),  I read the line and then  go 1.5 of what I see.   The speed is half the distance rather than 2/3rds.   I don't make a great percentage, but that adjustment makes the ball nestle often inside a foot, so I am not 3-putting it.    
• As an aside, I do line up the ball-line most of the time.   I use a chrome-soft, which makes that easy.   But on a putt outside of about 15 or 20 feet, I will use a spot on the green if I can identify one.  If not, I am just more confident in my aim if I have aimed the line on the ball and then use that to line up.   Your technique might vary.   I can usually aim okay in side of 6 feet.   The line is just a crutch.  I would like to get away from it, eventually.  But, whatever works, works.  I also want to begin to understand where the margin-of-error is for each type of putt.   With putts that break, there are a number of lines and speeds that will result in a make.   I want to know when to add or subtract read or speed to get better into a sweet-spot lane and increase the percentages.  
• It is easy to set up a practice station based on 3-4-5 triangles.   Each number on the clock is 30 degrees.  So once you identify the fall line,  you can walk 3 up and 4 over to find 10 o'clock and up 4 and over 3 to find 11 o'clock.    You can use the same technique to fill in the other 3 quarters of the clock.    I only have reads for each clock position.   That seems to be close enough, so far.  I am sure I can refine it some more with additional practice and testing.   But it's been a HUGE improvement, thus far.  

As I noted in the Topic above, I feel like I have demystified green reading.   I still miss read once in awhile.  But 80% or 90% of the time, I have confidence what I am seeing and what I am reading, and the ball reacts as I expected it will.    

 

[cksurfdude]

I like the idea of a putting mat in the driveway for slope!

Interesting that you'd looked at AimPoint - with the perspective of an engineer - but didn't like it. I'm not an engineer (tho I do enjoy trying to understand how things work) and had attended an AimPoint clinic two years ago, and I found it really REALLY helped me with my putting. I'm much more confident in picking a start line now and focusing on speed .. especially for the first putt.

One commonality with your method is to also locate the zero, or fall, line into the hole.

Don't really know anything about plumb bobbing (other than seeing Miguel Angel Jiminez doing it ) but may check out some of those YT vids just to try to learn a little.

[tony@CIC]

On 11/11/2022 at 8:26 PM, saz0418 said:

I wanted to share my experience with improving my putting this Summer, with the hope that it might help you, too.

This is more about the black-art of green reading than about any specific technique or putting stroke.  

Here is where it started:  I always felt like I was a better than average putter-- or maybe at least better than my buddies.   This summer, I sort of felt like I was in hit-and-hope mode.   I purchased a green-book for my home course.  And I *made* a green book for the courses that I played more frequently.  This helped-- until I got to courses that I didn't play a lot, and suddenly I was lost.    So, I embarked on trying to find a way to read greens.   The Engineer (retired) in me said that grass and slope and stimp and speed have been around for decades.  The physics should be really well understood.  And still, you go look for how to read greens and what you find will be of very little practical use.  Look at the terrain as you walk up.   Imagine where water will run.   Yeah, great. 

I started looking at AimPoint.  I hoped I could find something simpler-- because I have buddies that foot-read, and they still don't seem to putt great.   In my search about AimPoint, I found a teaching pro that walked through an extended tutorial on plumb-bobbing.    Here was my thought:  If I can plumb-bob, at least I have a starting point, and I can figure out how the real "read" varies from what I see plumb-bobbing--and then keep  some notes.  Then I won't be (as) lost.   I have notes I carry on chipping distances and my club distance matrix and my green book. What's one more sheet if it helps, right?

So, I put a putting green in my driveway (with 2 - 3 % degrees of slope), and started studying putts between 3 and 10 feet.  Then I took those notes and went to my putting practice green at my course, and tested what I learned in the driveway on real grass.   The results were surprising-- and not what I expected. 

Here are my findings:  for putts on 9/10 stimp greens and 2 -3 degrees of slope (which I think are the most common),  the plumb bob technique actually GIVES you pretty much the correct line.   What I found is you need to then adjust the speed  depending on where you are on the clock face.   And, from there, you can find adjustments for more or less steep greens (or faster or slower).    I commonly, now, have about 26 - 32 putts per round.   I think this puts me in the positive strokes-gained area compared to averages.   I still 3 putt once in awhile.   Rarely inside 20 feet.   I have had as few as 22 putts in a round (using this method).  I have had 11 putts for 9 holes a couple of times.   

The caveat I would give you is you need to find your own speed for the line that plumb-bobbing shows you.    I think it will be sort of indvidual--- but once you have it, you have it.  Here is an example.    On a putt from 10:00 on the clock,  I know I get the line from plumb-bobbing-- and then the speed (for me) is 1/3 of the length of the putt.  So you can pace it or estimate it-- but that's my line and distance (aim point), and if I execute it,  the pull falls.  Pretty much every time.     I would give you all the reads, here, but (1) I do think it's somewhat individual and (2) I still want to take money off my buddies, so I am not giving away the secrets!  

Here are some supporting notes:

• you need to know your dominant eye, and then you need to understand how to correctly plumb-bob. You can find both of these  on YouTube pretty easily.    Key to this is to understand how your putter hangs directly straight up and down.   I was testing out a new (old) putter this week and was reading putts completely incorrectly (and missing)  before I realized I didn't have the putter oriented correctly.   It matters.   
• Focus on putts from 3 - 10 feet.   PGA pros make less than 50 % of putts outside of about 7-8 feet.  The stats back that up.   The biggest impact you will have on your scores is to make more 3 -7 footers--- and this technique is really good in that range.   
• Once you learn how to plumb-bob as a technique,  the first thing to get good at is finding the straight putt (fall-line).   From there, you can judge direction of break.   Get below the hole and hold the putter off your naval and then walk right or left until it bisects the hole.  That's your straight putt. 
• I have a small cheat-sheet I refer to that has the reads/speeds for each position around the clock face.   I thought it would be more complicated than that, but I think the plum-bob technique varies slightly depending on the slope you are standing on when you read.  So, say, 8:00 vs. 8:30 seems to (mostly) take care of itself. 
• This technique *does* have some limitations.   It is better on greens with (somewhat) consistent tilt.    Greens that are real undulating can present some difficulties.  Still, I will try to get a decent read from about 6 - 10 feet out as the putt nears the hole.   It still helps-- it just won't give you the line.   In fact, you need to try (as much as possible) to stand on the slope that represents the slope near the hole.  This can be challenging if you have to stand on an apron or collar (or another slope) to get behind the ball.  But, its adaptable most of the time.   
• My putter seems to hang pretty straight to the point where I can read using the right edge or the left edge of the shaft.  That's been helpful in seeing the line in relation to the hole.  
• I plan to experiment with some rules-of-thumb for more or less slope.    For instance, it seems like from 90 degrees to the slope (3:00 or 9:00 on the clock face) on  a fast green or one with more slope (where I am afraid the putt will get away from me),  I read the line and then  go 1.5 of what I see.   The speed is half the distance rather than 2/3rds.   I don't make a great percentage, but that adjustment makes the ball nestle often inside a foot, so I am not 3-putting it.    
• As an aside, I do line up the ball-line most of the time.   I use a chrome-soft, which makes that easy.   But on a putt outside of about 15 or 20 feet, I will use a spot on the green if I can identify one.  If not, I am just more confident in my aim if I have aimed the line on the ball and then use that to line up.   Your technique might vary.   I can usually aim okay in side of 6 feet.   The line is just a crutch.  I would like to get away from it, eventually.  But, whatever works, works.  I also want to begin to understand where the margin-of-error is for each type of putt.   With putts that break, there are a number of lines and speeds that will result in a make.   I want to know when to add or subtract read or speed to get better into a sweet-spot lane and increase the percentages.  
• It is easy to set up a practice station based on 3-4-5 triangles.   Each number on the clock is 30 degrees.  So once you identify the fall line,  you can walk 3 up and 4 over to find 10 o'clock and up 4 and over 3 to find 11 o'clock.    You can use the same technique to fill in the other 3 quarters of the clock.    I only have reads for each clock position.   That seems to be close enough, so far.  I am sure I can refine it some more with additional practice and testing.   But it's been a HUGE improvement, thus far.  

As I noted in the Topic above, I feel like I have demystified green reading.   I still miss read once in awhile.  But 80% or 90% of the time, I have confidence what I am seeing and what I am reading, and the ball reacts as I expected it will.    

 

Nice write-up. I'd expect no less from an engineer.  A couple of questions:

How do you account for variation in greens conditions. As someone who has played for years on Bentgrass greens switching to Bermuda, I found Bermuda greens more challenging -  the speed will vary between greens depending on time of day, exposure to the sun, etc.  In Ohio, no one really talked about the grain and it's relationship to speed. Here in Fl. my partners are always commenting about 'with the grain' or 'against it ' as a speed adjustment. 

The other is how much attention do you pay to "entry to the hole".  I recently saw an interesting lesson on the Golf Channel with Danielle Kang. She spent some time talking about where she wants the ball to enter the cup - think 3:00 to 9:00 positions. I found this extremely helpful as I'm thinking through the break. 

 

[Kenny B]

Green reading will always remain a mystery to me.  Am I better than I used to be?  Absolutely!  Could I be better?  Certainly!  Generally speaking, I don't spend much time focusing on the line of the putt.  Yes, I can usually see slopes and subtle breaks so I have a decent understanding of what the ball will do when I stroke it.  The line of the putt is dictated by the speed of the putt, so I focus more on how hard to stroke it and less on the line.  After I make my green read decision, align the ball and my putter, then I make the stroke looking at the hole (or target on the green if a wild break).  This allows me to apply the appropriate amount of force to get the ball to the hole.  

There is variation in speed that comes from the stroke itself, and many people don't consistently make the same stroke when distance varies.  This only comes from lots of practice and until the stroke is repeatable, focusing too much on the line is wasted effort IMHO... until a person's type of stroke is repeatable.

Never used Aimpoint or plumb bobbing; maybe I should.  I do OK on our Poa Annua greens because I'm used to them.  Per @tony@CIC the grain of bermuda eludes me when I have to consider grain break and speed in addition to slope.  It takes me about 2 weeks to get used to bermuda, which is the maximum time I spend on vacation in January!!  So, I don't get excited about putting on bermuda.

 

 

[DaveP043]

On 11/11/2022 at 8:26 PM, saz0418 said:

I started looking at AimPoint. 

I'd suggest that taking an actual Aimpoint Express clinic would be productive for most players.  It is very simple to use, it just takes a bit of practice to train your body to accurately diagnose the slopes.  

Edited November 14, 2022 by DaveP043

[cnosil]

On 11/11/2022 at 8:26 PM, saz0418 said:

I The physics should be really well understood.  And still, you go look for how to read greens and what you find will be of very little practical use.  Look at the terrain as you walk up.   Imagine where water will run.   Yeah, great. 

I started looking at AimPoint.  I hoped I could find something simpler

Here are my findings:  for putts on 9/10 stimp greens and 2 -3 degrees of slope (which I think are the most common), 

 

The physics is very well understood.  It was published in 1984 in H. A. Templeton's book "Vector Putting: The Art and Science of Reading Greens and Computing Break."   This is part of the basic for Aimpoint and now Aimpoint Express.    You can also look up Geoff Mangum who will go into the physics and like you assessed he talks about most greens having a stimp of 10 and that there is a formula you can use to pick an aimpoint on the zero break line.   The formula is: Slope times Feet / 2 which is pretty simple math;  faster of slower greens just add or subtract an additional 10% from the resulting distance per each +/- 1 in stimp .    The basics of 10 feet and in is covered in his guide which happens to be called "Ten-and-In Putts Reading and Sinking"

[GolfSpy_APH]

Obviously depending on greens however a thought I have always had is.often we over judge a lot of putts. So many course I've played it looks or seems the slope is much greater than it is and causes more missed putts then taking a much straighter line.

Find a target, imagine the pace and way the ball will go into the hole, set yourself up and focus on the length vs line.

Great write up and glad you've found your method to making more putts!!

[Kenny B]

14 hours ago, cnosil said:

The physics is very well understood.  It was published in 1984 in H. A. Templeton's book "Vector Putting: The Art and Science of Reading Greens and Computing Break."   This is part of the basic for Aimpoint and now Aimpoint Express.    You can also look up Geoff Mangum who will go into the physics and like you assessed he talks about most greens having a stimp of 10 and that there is a formula you can use to pick an aimpoint on the zero break line.   The formula is: Slope times Feet / 2 which is pretty simple math;  faster of slower greens just add or subtract an additional 10% from the resulting distance per each +/- 1 in stimp .    The basics of 10 feet and in is covered in his guide which happens to be called "Ten-and-In Putts Reading and Sinking"

That's part of my problem.  I can judge the feet, but I have no idea what the "slope" number is.  I have no idea what 10 stimp is or what +/- 1 in stimp looks or feels like; I'm not sure that our Super even knows.  I have never seen it being measured in 7 years.  I only go with experience on what the speed has felt like before and what it feels like now.  All other courses are "measured" in my mind by what my course typically runs at.  It's truly amazing that I can putt as well as I do!!

[cnosil]

5 minutes ago, Kenny B said:

That's part of my problem.  I can judge the feet, but I have no idea what the "slope" number is.  I have no idea what 10 stimp is or what +/- 1 in stimp looks or feels like; I'm not sure that our Super even knows.  I have never seen it being measured in 7 years.  I only go with experience on what the speed has felt like before and what it feels like now.  All other courses are "measured" in my mind by what my course typically runs at.  It's truly amazing that I can putt as well as I do!!

I don’t think you have to know specifics.   For most courses stimp is probably 9 or 10 and most slopes are 2% or less for the 10 feet around a hole.  I’ve been reading a lot of Geoff Magnum’s stuff recently and there are techniques that you can do on the practice green to help determine green speed.  Slope is just something you would have to practice and learn.   There are ways you can work on this:

1.  Practice finding the zero break line.   Pick where you think it is and see if the ball rolls straight.  Uphill and downhill should be easy is to figure out.

2. Setup a 10 foot putt and calculate the aimpoint using the formula and put a tee at that spot.  Aim for that spot and roll putts.  IF you are hitting the line and missing the putt make adjustments as the green may be a little faster or slower.  You can also uses a string between the ball and the aimpoint 

[Kenny B]

24 minutes ago, cnosil said:

I don’t think you have to know specifics.   For most courses stimp is probably 9 or 10 and most slopes are 2% or less for the 10 feet around a hole.  I’ve been reading a lot of Geoff Magnum’s stuff recently and there are techniques that you can do on the practice green to help determine green speed.  Slope is just something you would have to practice and learn.   There are ways you can work on this:

1.  Practice finding the zero break line.   Pick where you think it is and see if the ball rolls straight.  Uphill and downhill should be easy is to figure out.

2. Setup a 10 foot putt and calculate the aimpoint using the formula and put a tee at that spot.  Aim for that spot and roll putts.  IF you are hitting the line and missing the putt make adjustments as the green may be a little faster or slower.  You can also uses a string between the ball and the aimpoint 

My problem is that there is no break on our practice putting green; only very subtle breaks in some areas of the green depending on where they put a hole.  The ball will drift one way of the other as it slows down; within 3-4 feet every putt to any hole is basically straight.  I've talked to the Pro and the Super about rebuilding the practice green; the Super has wanted to do it for years but it's never in the budget.  

Are greens are fairly fast for a muni; a little slower than the country club but faster than many courses in the area.  After they punched and sanded this last time, they verticut after the greens recovered and they were faster than any time in the past two years (loved it!); back to the usual speed now that winter has set in and mowing is infrequent.

I have used the string when focusing on face control, but could never do that on the course.  There are plenty of places on the course to practice, but for the past two years there is no dead time to spend on a green just to practice.  I also know all the breaks in all the greens, so not sure what I would be doing different from what I already do when I walk up to my ball.  It's funny... the course architect built some of the greens where the breaks don't go in the usual direction you would think.  He could do this because we don't get much rain, so the only water runoff is from irrigation.  As an example, on the par 5  #9 hole a pond runs up the right side of fairway to greenside on the right, but putting parallel to the water the ball will break slightly away from the water.

[cksurfdude]

1 hour ago, Kenny B said:

It's truly amazing that I can putt as well as I do!!

Must be the heads-up putting!!

Possibly what you're inherently doing is a version of what may be the simplest green reading method I've been shown = hold the golf ball .. underhanded .. in your throwing hand and toss it so that it lands and rolls into the hole .. now replicate that exact same motion and effort with your putter......

[Kenny B]

33 minutes ago, cksurfdude said:

Must be the heads-up putting!!

Possibly what you're inherently doing is a version of what may be the simplest green reading method I've been shown = hold the golf ball .. underhanded .. in your throwing hand and toss it so that it lands and rolls into the hole .. now replicate that exact same motion and effort with your putter......

You just described Monte's pitching motion from his Use The Bounce 2.0 video.  Nice!!

You are probably right.  It's all feel for me based on experience and judgement.

[cksurfdude]

6 minutes ago, Kenny B said:

You just described Monte's pitching motion from his Use The Bounce 2.0 video.  Nice!!

Couldn't quite recall where I'd seen it, but there ya go -- check out Monte's video everyone

For me, and I don't like to use the "P" word, but it's a near-perfect way to stop stressing over long putts and just walk up and try to make a decent stroke focusing on distance control.

[cnosil]

1 hour ago, Kenny B said:

 I also know all the breaks in all the greens, so not sure what I would be doing different from what I already do when I walk up to my ball. 

That is all green reading is…learning how the ball will move based on past experience.  You already know how the greens break based on past experiences with the different hole locations and green speed; the calculations are done as you are walking up to the ball.   Even when you go to another course all your decisions are made based on that past history and you make adjustments based on the practice green or what you experience on the first few holes.  

[Bang60]

Looks good...

[tony@CIC]

Another dimension that can be added to this thread, is face contact. I play with 2 guys, both lower handicappers (10 & 12) who putt with the toe of the club (and are really good at it). Imagine the putter perpendicular to the line with the heel elevated about 15* and striking the ball on the toe. Also one these guys has his putter extremely close to his feet. Weird but it works for him. Then of course there's putter loft......... and here I thought this game was simple 

 

[Kenny B]

1 hour ago, tony@CIC said:

Another dimension that can be added to this thread, is face contact. I play with 2 guys, both lower handicappers (10 & 12) who putt with the toe of the club (and are really good at it). Imagine the putter perpendicular to the line with the heel elevated about 15* and striking the ball on the toe. Also one these guys has his putter extremely close to his feet. Weird but it works for him. Then of course there's putter loft......... and here I thought this game was simple 

 

The old pro at my old course putts with the toe up and a pop stroke like the pros used to do when they putted on greens with speeds probably slower than most of us play on now.   Works for him; whatever you get used to...  {what am I saying... "old pro"!!  Crap, he's younger than me.!!!}

[Kenny B]

4 hours ago, cnosil said:

That is all green reading is…learning how the ball will move based on past experience.  You already know how the greens break based on past experiences with the different hole locations and green speed; the calculations are done as you are walking up to the ball.   Even when you go to another course all your decisions are made based on that past history and you make adjustments based on the practice green or what you experience on the first few holes.  

Other courses present problems unless I can spend an hour putting before I play; takes that long to get the feel for speed if it's significantly different... and on bermuda, it is!!  Adjustments are hard!!

Also, I don't handle uphill putts as well as I should; I judge the distance OK, but have difficulty adjusting the pace.  I rarely leave putts short, but that's my miss on uphill putts.  Strange that I don't have issues with downhill putts.

[cksurfdude]

On 11/15/2022 at 3:31 PM, tony@CIC said:

.. putt with the toe of the club

That's actually a technique to adjust for a really fast, tricky downhill putt (kinda analogous to adjusting to uneven lies) -- raise the heel a touch, bring the putter head a touch closer to you and intentionally hit off the toe to "deaden" the strike a touch....

[Kenny B]

1 hour ago, cksurfdude said:

That's actually a technique to adjust for a really fast, tricky downhill putt (kinda analogous to adjusting to uneven lies) -- raise the heel a touch, bring the putter head a touch closer to you and intentionally hit off the toe to "deaden" the strike a touch....

I thought that technique was "old school"... used with toe-hang putters.  I don't think you get much effect from the high MOI putters and those with built-in tech like Evnroll.  

The fast, tricky downhill putts are impossible to pick a line on my course.  You are at the mercy of poa annua grass which changes all day long and unlike the Pebble Beach poa, the course is just a mid-scale muni that most people don't bother to fix ball marks.

[cksurfdude]

9 hours ago, Kenny B said:

I thought that .. was "old school" ..

Yeah that's me! 

Sounds like putting at your course is more like watching a pinball ball bounce around back and forth as it drops

[tony@CIC]

1 hour ago, cksurfdude said:

Yeah that's me! 

Sounds like putting at your course is more like watching a pinball ball bounce around back and forth as it drops

Yup - those are out greens as well.

[Bang60]

My eyes are so bad I can't read subtle breaths in fact I sometimes miss read by 3-4 feet, I'm quite good at distance but I also don't remember breaks lol so some days I putt crap...