PGA Tour & PIF/LIV Golf Merger

[Clay5477]

1 hour ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Actual details of the whole deal

https://www.si.com/golf/news/jimmy-dunne-the-architect-of-the-pga-tour-liv-golf-deal-lays-out-the-details?fbclid=IwAR3zPfBnpYbaH_UNfUoWHuCTycFzv0n6-YLEIWkrC_oOhd6FJkoJnu8joPY_aem_th_AZRuEKG9gnr76f883cMN7_yjb-jxfaZICuiQdCEgGY92S9av4HMpoyUqxb-ir_8uRQk&mibextid=Zxz2cZ

Wow again. This is getting more and more interesting with every new reveal.

Jay Monahan is running global mens' professional golf, and the current LIV players are homeless at the end of the 2023 season. Wow.

[GPS111]

Best article I've read on this so far.  It explains a lot.  Even though it makes more sense of everything it won't make up for player animosity.  That will take time.

https://www.golfchannel.com/news/power-broker-jimmy-dunne-911-history-helped-get-pga-tour-and-saudis-table

 

[RickyBobby_PR]

12 minutes ago, Clay5477 said:

Wow again. This is getting more and more interesting with every new reveal.

Jay Monahan is running global mens' professional golf, and the current LIV players are homeless at the end of the 2023 season. Wow.

It’s what happens when the media create a story. They used merger to describe what was taking place and there were no details so it lead to all the comments in here and across other platforms about the saudis role in the tour and Monaghan and being a sellout.

Had the media ran with the partnership angle the clicks/views would have probably been different as well as reactions.

As to LIV going away at the end of the year that’s more than likely but not a guarantee. There will probably be some legal challenges if that happens and I think most of the LIV golfers will have a home on the tour but will have to serve some kind of suspension and possible monetary fine.

But even before any of that happens there’s still a long road ahead from a legal and regulatory aspect of this business deal. It probably doesn’t happen as it will more than likely get blocked by the US congress and UK regulatory peeps. Possibly even in Asia.

[Clay5477]

Agreed.

It doesn't get any more anti-competitive and monopolistic than having one king of a global for-profit enterprise, with no possible competitors. This is gonna get interesting.

As far as the current LIV players, Monahan's letter said (slightly paraphrased) they may "...apply for reinstatement, their applications will be subject to objective criteria, which will be based on current PGA Tour rules..." So, until they're back in, they're out.

I'm guessing a combination of fines/penalties, plus possible waiting periods before reinstatement. I just also read the possibility of being locked out of the PIP for a period of time.

[richk9holes]

1 hour ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

It’s what happens when the media create a story. They used merger to describe what was taking place and there were no details so it lead to all the comments in here and across other platforms about the saudis role in the tour and Monaghan and being a sellout.

Had the media ran with the partnership angle the clicks/views would have probably been different as well as reactions.

https://www.cnbc.com/video/2023/06/06/pgas-jay-monahan-and-pifs-yasir-al-rumayyan-break-down-surprise-deal-to-merge-pga-and-liv.html?jwsource=cl

At 4:25 of the above video the 2 major parties involved describe in their own words. 

Why do we need SI, which is basically a nude magazine now, for journalistic anything anymore?

The media didn't make any story. Monahan and Al Ramayyan did a 25 minute interview that made the story. The headlines the TL:DR crowd is running with came out of those men's mouths.

Your article is an example of many to come revisionist narrative pieces and semantic gameplay. Push and poll. Push and poll. People dislike the words X, Y and Z. Give SI an interview where you use words T, U and V instead. 

[Thin2win]

I'm guessing right now,  both PGA and LIV players and their agents are trying to figure out what the future holds. 

Given that the PIF paid for the LIV players,  and now the that the PIF is on the board, i don't see how fining players that went to LIV makes sense.  Likewise a suspension seems odd. 

Id rather see a mechanism that rewards the players that stayed instead of trying to punish the players that left.

[RickyBobby_PR]

Just now, Thin2win said:

I'm guessing right now,  both PGA and LIV players and their agents are trying to figure out what the future holds. 

Given that the PIF paid for the LIV players,  and now the that the PIF is on the board, i don't see how fining players that went to LIV makes sense.  Likewise a suspension seems odd. 

Id rather see a mechanism that rewards the players that stayed instead of trying to punish the players that left.

They may be on the board of the new company, it doesn’t mean that they have any role when it comes to the pga tour or dp world tour or even the liv tour. The new company isnt necessarily responsible for the tours but rather financial decisions as far as business ventures like buying a course, sponsorship money.

when you look at the statement from monahan about the guidelines about the suspensions of the players and that reinstatement, there is probably some policy in the players handbook that states a process for reinstatement after any kind of suspension. It appears that monahan is the ultimate decision maker and said it’s going to be costly. So financial hit is more than likely and a big hit would be to keep them from events other than previously qualified for majors that would further impact their world ranking points. Only being able to play 4 times a year in an event that earns points would be a big penalty. Would keep them out of a lot of tournaments upon the the end of their suspension. Also could see those who resigned from the tour being forced to qualify like everyone else and possibly having to go the KF route

[MacTourney]

2 hours ago, richk9holes said:

Your article is an example of many to come revisionist narrative pieces and semantic gameplay.

You bet, the typewriter tap dance will be in full bloom for a long spell.  Don't follow this topic closely enough but my spidey-sense is vivid with images of a Trojan horse.

[chisag]

23 minutes ago, Thin2win said:

I'm guessing right now,  both PGA and LIV players and their agents are trying to figure out what the future holds.

 

... The PGA Tour has skyrocketed into my Most Disliked Top 5:

1. Congress
2. Lobbyist
3. Venture Capitalist
4. PGA Tour
5. Investment Banking

[Thin2win]

27 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

They may be on the board of the new company, it doesn’t mean that they have any role when it comes to the pga tour or dp world tour or even the liv tour. The new company isnt necessarily responsible for the tours but rather financial decisions as far as business ventures like buying a course, sponsorship money.

when you look at the statement from monahan about the guidelines about the suspensions of the players and that reinstatement, there is probably some policy in the players handbook that states a process for reinstatement after any kind of suspension. It appears that monahan is the ultimate decision maker and said it’s going to be costly. So financial hit is more than likely and a big hit would be to keep them from events other than previously qualified for majors that would further impact their world ranking points. Only being able to play 4 times a year in an event that earns points would be a big penalty. Would keep them out of a lot of tournaments upon the the end of their suspension. Also could see those who resigned from the tour being forced to qualify like everyone else and possibly having to go the KF route

All that's possible,  but i have to believe that the goal is to mend and heal,  not punish and divide. 

[Kansas King]

I've had a couple days to let everything soak in and my current mood is unchanged: **** the PGA Tour.

That said, I'm curious what the long-term ramifications are of this assuming it isn't stopped by antitrust actions. It seems to be an inherently risky proposition for the purse not just of the PGAT but of most professional golf to be in the hands of one sovereign investment fund. Obviously, the Saudis have a long-term plan to try and improve their image around the world and one way they're doing that is through sportswashing. The PIF is an enormous fund. However, I have some questions.

What happens if there is a regime change in SA? What if they don't support the sportswashing efforts?

Will the PIF still be equally financially supportive if there is a global recession that results in depressed asset valuations around the world? 

While this is a long way off, what happens if oil becomes a far less profitable global commodity? Or if Saudi oil resources start drying up?

 

I know a lot of these questions are unanswerable but there are some real long-term risks that I fear can't be addressed with words on a piece of paper that we call a contract. The amount of concentration risk that professional golf is going take on is massive. This won't be an issue anytime soon but what about 20, 40, or even 60 years from now?

What happens if SA has another human rights/ethics blunder?

What happens if SA is put on the OFAC list?

 

These aren't unimaginable risks. The United States was days away from defaulting on its own debt. While very unlikely that congress would fail to kick the can down the road, the risk was present. 

I know this will sound cliche, but I have friends from SA that I met in college. Great guys. I have no ill feelings for the regular people of SA. My biggest qualms with the PIF taking over the professional golf is that 1) professional golf is no longer an organic self-supporting organization. I know some will try arguing that it's better for the players but I don't care. It's an unnatural organization. 2) This goes beyond professional golf. The SA PIF has been taking large stakes in other sports and many private/public companies. On top of the PIF's ownership in U.S. entities, they are a major purchaser for the American defense sector. I'm not against foreign investment in the U.S. However, this isn't a Russian billionaire looking for to diversify their wealth, this is a sovereign country directly buying influence in America and around the world. I know someone will say "bla bla bla, it's what the U.S.A. has been doing forever". Don't care.

The most concerning thing about all of it is that it seems we're just rolling over and taking it without a care in the world. It feels lazy.

It feels corrupt. 

[chisag]

10 minutes ago, Kansas King said:

It feels corrupt. 

 

... Good post! As always the answer is pretty simple:

[Rickp]

1 hour ago, chisag said:

 

... The PGA Tour has skyrocketed into my Most Disliked Top 5:

1. Congress
2. Lobbyist
3. Venture Capitalist
4. PGA Tour
5. Investment Banking

Can’t argue with that list, maybe one more.

[GaDawg]

30 minutes ago, chisag said:

 

... Good post! As always the answer is pretty simple:

[GPS111]

2 hours ago, Kansas King said:

I've had a couple days to let everything soak in and my current mood is unchanged: **** the PGA Tour.

That said, I'm curious what the long-term ramifications are of this assuming it isn't stopped by antitrust actions. It seems to be an inherently risky proposition for the purse not just of the PGAT but of most professional golf to be in the hands of one sovereign investment fund. Obviously, the Saudis have a long-term plan to try and improve their image around the world and one way they're doing that is through sportswashing. The PIF is an enormous fund. However, I have some questions.

What happens if there is a regime change in SA? What if they don't support the sportswashing efforts?

Will the PIF still be equally financially supportive if there is a global recession that results in depressed asset valuations around the world? 

While this is a long way off, what happens if oil becomes a far less profitable global commodity? Or if Saudi oil resources start drying up?

 

I know a lot of these questions are unanswerable but there are some real long-term risks that I fear can't be addressed with words on a piece of paper that we call a contract. The amount of concentration risk that professional golf is going take on is massive. This won't be an issue anytime soon but what about 20, 40, or even 60 years from now?

What happens if SA has another human rights/ethics blunder?

What happens if SA is put on the OFAC list?

 

These aren't unimaginable risks. The United States was days away from defaulting on its own debt. While very unlikely that congress would fail to kick the can down the road, the risk was present. 

I know this will sound cliche, but I have friends from SA that I met in college. Great guys. I have no ill feelings for the regular people of SA. My biggest qualms with the PIF taking over the professional golf is that 1) professional golf is no longer an organic self-supporting organization. I know some will try arguing that it's better for the players but I don't care. It's an unnatural organization. 2) This goes beyond professional golf. The SA PIF has been taking large stakes in other sports and many private/public companies. On top of the PIF's ownership in U.S. entities, they are a major purchaser for the American defense sector. I'm not against foreign investment in the U.S. However, this isn't a Russian billionaire looking for to diversify their wealth, this is a sovereign country directly buying influence in America and around the world. I know someone will say "bla bla bla, it's what the U.S.A. has been doing forever". Don't care.

The most concerning thing about all of it is that it seems we're just rolling over and taking it without a care in the world. It feels lazy.

It feels corrupt. 

And don't lose sight of we are helping directly fund this at the pump when gas prices go up every time Saudi Arabia cuts oil production like they will be doing in July by a million barrels per day to keep their income up.  They buy in to golf then make us fund it further in order to drive.

[Shapotomous]

4 hours ago, chisag said:

 

... The PGA Tour has skyrocketed into my Most Disliked Top 5:

1. Congress
2. Lobbyist
3. Venture Capitalist
4. PGA Tour
5. Investment Banking

 

3 hours ago, Rickp said:

Can’t argue with that list, maybe one more.

I have a few more tied for places 2 - 5! 

[Middler]

21 hours ago, Clay5477 said:

It doesn't get any more anti-competitive and monopolistic than having one king of a global for-profit enterprise, with no possible competitors. This is gonna get interesting.

How would “NewCo Golf” be any different than the NFL, NBA, MLB, NHL? No one is saying they can’t start other leagues, and there are alternatives to the above, though not true competitors. NewCo Golf can’t prevent independent competitors, but the $$$$ are big barriers to entry.

[richk9holes]

4 hours ago, Middler said:

How would “NewCo Golf” be any different than the NFL, NBA, MLB, NHL? No one is saying they can’t start other leagues, and there are alternatives to the above, though not true competitors. NewCo Golf can’t prevent independent competitors, but the $$$$ are big barriers to entry.

This coincides with my point that the loudest voices also have the deep pockets, they should invest in golf. With licensing deals now allowed, NCAA golf could be doing way more to draw young talent to their league. They are not, from what I can tell. The talent is going the other direction quickly while most Universities sit on endowments that, combined, make the Saudi investment look quaint. Apparently environmental concerns and desire for land preservation don't run so deep in those endowed campuses taking up hectares of usable land. 

Speaking of usable land. Our National Parks could certainly assign some designations and funding to golf courses which have held historic significance in America but have become overgrown and/or understaffed. I don't see efforts like this either.

Golf has to take the investment from PIF. I don't see the line of people looking to throw large endowments at the game, though it would seemingly align with the stated goals of many.

[Hook DeLoft]

Based on this segment, I will be very surprised if LIV golf survives:

 

[Tarheelvolvo]

On 6/9/2023 at 3:41 PM, chisag said:

 

... The PGA Tour has skyrocketed into my Most Disliked Top 5:

1. Congress
2. Lobbyist
3. Venture Capitalist
4. PGA Tour
5. Investment Banking

Good news!!! #1 is now investigating #4 

https://sports.yahoo.com/us-senate-opens-investigation-pga-164819212.html

[Shapotomous]

Jay M is reported to be recovering from a medical situation.

My guess is the Saudi's didnt like him saying they werent in control of the PIFGA! 

[GolfSpy_APH]

https://www.skysports.com/golf/news/12176/12902033/pga-tour-commissioner-jay-monahan-steps-away-to-recover-from-medical-situation

First wish him the best of health and that he is okay. 

Not the best look on timing I will admit, but not as tho we choose when these things happen. 

This will just add to the whole saga unfortunately.

[Richard Fahrney]

I am watching the legal issues that have not been addressed. You have a current administration that is anti monopolistic and reducing competition. Lena khan FTC chair has ruled against in other business decisions against reducing competition to individuals. The current Justice department leans the same way. 
Now we get to the individual pros that could file against the new entity for several reasons. If you don’t think we have a group of lawyers that aren’t waiting for more information to go after PIF and the PGA yoru living in the past. 
Finally I think this will result in a golfers union like all the other sports have in place. We don’t have all the information about the new entities but we just need to wait and see. The over under on this is, take the over on the lawyers. 

[mardukes]

Anti-monopoly?  You mean pro-corruption.  Nothing a few more million won't take care of.  And isn't the PGATour a guild already?

[Caddie1966]

I want to see the best players in the world compete.  I feel that this debacle, the split, the reunification and the drama associated with it all falls at the feet of two people: Greg Norman and Jay Moynihan.  
Norman has been a disrupter for good and bad but I think mostly for the worse as he has made all of this personal and has been negative for almost 30 years.  I hope I don’t hear oNorman in golf ever again.
Moynihan flat Lew it and did not have the ability or the conviction to stand with his players.  He hung them out to dry and debased them in his process.  He should be gone immediately and have no role in this going forward.

[Shapotomous]

9 hours ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

https://www.skysports.com/golf/news/12176/12902033/pga-tour-commissioner-jay-monahan-steps-away-to-recover-from-medical-situation

First wish him the best of health and that he is okay. 

Not the best look on timing I will admit, but not as tho we choose when these things happen. 

This will just add to the whole saga unfortunately.

Maybe it wasnt the Saudis.  Its quite possible he needed shoulder surgery due to the force he used to stab Rory in the back.