Debate: Golfers Don't Deserve Free Relief from Fairway Divots

[GolfSpy_APH]

https://mygolfspy.com/news-opinion/golfers-dont-deserve-free-relief-from-fairway-divots/

Title says it all... what do you think?

[skraeling]

Is the game played off grass or holes?

Maybe at the best pro levels it makes sense perhaps.  Though really do they want it segregated just based purely on luck?

 

[Josh Parker]

Depends on the game or group I'm playing with determines the outcome. 

Our bunkers are even worse with all the deer and animals in them. 

[VTK]

The game is hard enough. You shouldn't get a penalty when hitting a drive into the middle of the fairway. 

[Wheelieb]

Well I was about to ask who hurt the author, but after reading what was written I’ll agree with his thought process. 

[EMacK1961]

On the courses I play, you are allowed to "bump" the ball in the fairway only. Generally speaking, I find that unfilled divots should be considered as ground under repair and you should be given relief. A filled divot, on the other hand, should be played as it lies. Just sayin'

[HBaum]

I think there should be by pulling it back. If your in the fairway it is suppose to be greener pastures and nicer lies. Even puddles of water should be relief. All should be back from divot. No further.

[DaveP043]

I'm sure I've said it in some other thread, but I'll say it here, I agree completely.  

14 minutes ago, VTK said:

You shouldn't get a penalty when hitting a drive into the middle of the fairway. 

You don't, you still have the preferred angle, and generally a pretty level stance.

11 minutes ago, EMacK1961 said:

A filled divot, on the other hand, should be played as it lies.

What about an unfilled divot hole that's partially grown over?  When does the relief stop?  Or maybe a bare spot?  How about if the mowers scalp an area?  

4 minutes ago, HBaum said:

Even puddles of water should be relief.

Temporary Water IS a reason for relief, under Rule 16.1

 

[Javs]

At first glance I did not agree. However, once I read the article it changed my mind. I agree with the article based on the argument offered. 

[funkyjudge]

1 hour ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

https://mygolfspy.com/news-opinion/golfers-dont-deserve-free-relief-from-fairway-divots/

Title says it all... what do you think?

Generally, I am all for “playing the ball as it lies”, including from fairway divots, which I have done hundreds of times over my 39 years of playing golf. However, in some instances, I have encountered what are far from normal “divots”, both in the fairway and in the rough. These pits make it virtually impossible to make any kind of even barely reasonable contact. I ended up in one of these deep pits in a fairway in my tournament yesterday, and only about 1/3 to 1/2 of my ball was above the surface of the surrounding fairway. This was not your typical “dollar bill” or “ beaver pelt” divot, just a small pit slightly larger than a golf ball. I had no option but to hit down VERY HARD with a lofted wedge (I used my 50* Cobra Snakebite wedge because it’s versatile sole design with the center notch made it a better choice from that lie). Hitting the ball really hard still only enabled me to advance my ball about 40 yards.

I know that it would probably be very difficult to define this type of unusual manmade condition, but if it could be done I think that there should be an exception made to allow golfers to take a free drop from such conditions. Maybe something along the lines of an “undue or unusual manmade damage” exception to playing the ball as it lies.

For the record, the only way I could imagine anyone making a divot like the one I encountered yesterday and described above would be from hitting severely down on the ball and burying the clubhead in the soft fairway turf. I encountered far too many unrepaired fairway divots at that course, along with several that were repaired very poorly. I took a handful of fairway divots myself during my round, but repaired all of them carefully and fully.

Edited February 2 by funkyjudge

[funkyjudge]

50 minutes ago, Javs said:

At first glance I did not agree. However, once I read the article it changed my mind. I agree with the article based on the argument offered. 

Yep; that is why I said in my response that it would be virtually impossible to define and enforce what are “normal“ vs “unusual” or “extreme” conditions.

[Hook DeLoft]

My feeling is that golf, like life, isn't fair.  If you want to know how good you are, play by the rules.  If you are in an official competition, play by the rules.  On the other hand, for casual rounds with friends, I agree with the author that you can play anyway you want.  It's your time and money. 

[ShimmyCocoBop]

I agree with SEAN FAIRHOLM's article.

Furthermore, if finding your ball in a divot is considered a "bad break" and therefore you should be entitled to relief, should the reverse be true and you should not be entitled to a "good break"?

When watching professional golf on TV, I see many more good breaks than bad breaks occur, and Pro's are always (IMHO) getting relief that seems overly generous.

Playing for money or in a match, play it as it lies. It's called Rub of the Green.

...from Gary Martin of The Phrase Finder    "The first citation that I've found of the current, sporting meaning of the term Rub of the Green does come from the world of golf. The rules of golf have been codified in Scotland since their first publication in 1744. From the 19th century these have mostly emanated from the Society of St Andrews Golfers, under the unambiguous name The Rules of Golf. In 1812, the rules included:

Whatever happens to a Ball by accident, must be reckoned a Rub of the green.

Over time, a 'rub' has altered in meaning from a physical hump, dip or some other hindrance on the green's surface to 'a stoke of good or bad fortune'."

Playing for fun, who cares what you do?

 

[Hook DeLoft]

"Aye, there's the rub." -- Hamlet

[Stuka44]

I'm not going to be drawn into the argument that this leads too.  I believe on a thread a few months ago.  My argument remains the same.    A following golfer especially in a professional tournament where , All professional tours with their pristine, courses, and every real impediment to play is marked as ground under repair before the event, on every hole.  And prior to play commencing all divots have been meticulously filled and manicured by the course staff.  I find it hard to believe that 14 -20 individual volunteers could not be found, with proper instruction from staff, on how to properly fill each divot after it is made.

If the person isn't going to be penalized immediately for not properly filling his divot, or raking a bunker, this is then  not a BAD BREAK, it is a codified advantage to early players over late ones!  If the first player for his first round, has no chance of finding an unfilled divot, or improperly raked bunker, and he as a 0% chance of receiving "a bad break" to find either conditions, then following players should also receive the same 0% chance. However "best" doesn't have to be perfect, but it should be the "best solution" that can be arrived at.

Oh and don't even get me started on the recreational game, where the divots on the courses I play, HAVE NEVER been fixed by the course, and from what I can see by any other golfer for that matter, and many places do not have sand to fill divots with in the carts.  And assuming that my course does rake the bunkers before play, and 100 people play before me and NONE of them rake the bunkers.  The first golfer who goes out and finds bunkers, got a BAD BREAK I GUESS, by hitting into the bunkers, but he find well manicured bunkers, with ZERO imperfections in the raking, and the best lies that can be found.  I am the 101st golfer, I hit the same 3 bunkers as the first golfer, which every other golfer has hit( and again nobody has raked)  Is it just a "bad break" that I am left to play off the surface of the moon, when every golfer before me had incrementally better conditions, when hitting the same bunkers.  It is not!  It is no more surprising, or unexpected,  than golfers ending up behind tv towers, or port a potties, or in some spectators lawn chair.  

The fact that my moon scenario, albeit very far fetched is possible, means that it is an  advantage for some, and a disadvantage for others, which should be addressed as best as possible, for professional and recreational play.    It is not a bad break.  A bad break would be something that happens, and nobody, would have expected it.  Leaving 150 unfilled divots in the fairway for the last guy, is indifference to a flawed situation, and the predictable potential disadvantage to the last guy of the day, that the first guy of the day was not in any way subject to.  That is NOT a BAD BREAK!

Edited February 5 by Stuka44

[Stuka44]

2 hours ago, ShimmyCocoBop said:

"bad break" and therefore you should be entitled to relief, should the reverse be true and you should not be entitled to a "good break"?

I would submit that divots, and unraked bunkers, are not bad breaks.  They are outcomes, which one can predict are in fact going to occur at some point in time.  That is not a bad break.  The fact that they can't come up with the PERFECT solution, IMHO opinion doesn't mean they should do nothing.

A bad break are you and I hitting our ball into the same tree, and yours bouncing onto the green, and mine ricocheting into the pond next to the green.  Neither one of us has any control over what the other guys outcome after striking the tree was.  That is a bad break.  Me being the first golfer of the day and you the second, and after I play out of the pristinely manicured traps, and you encountering what looks like the beach at Normandy, because I choose to stroll around in there, or it looks like I played a beach volleyball match in there is not a bad break.  Your lie in the same bunker I was in is you being disadvantaged by someone who doesn't care, or does it because they are an A-hole.   You and I are no longer playing the same game.  Your lie in the bunker will have no chance of being like mine.  I can choose to leave it like the "Surface of the Moon".  That's OK you just got a bad break.  You should not have hit it in the bunker!  The "Moonscape" I left you is just a little bonus, them are the breaks!!! 

I am not saying anything about your position  ShimmyCocoBop, I just used your sentence, for this example!

[rkj427]

On 2/4/2024 at 3:59 PM, Hook DeLoft said:

My feeling is that golf, like life, isn't fair.  If you want to know how good you are, play by the rules.  If you are in an official competition, play by the rules.  On the other hand, for casual rounds with friends, I agree with the author that you can play anyway you want.  It's your time and money. 

This would be my position as well, although when we learned and played the game in the late 60's through mid 70's it was a developed skill to "play the ball as it lies."

Even today when I play with my regular group, we play it as it lies, although there are times someone will take "relief" from a situation which may cause an injury to the player.

And we do NOT play on course conditions anywhere near the condit6ions found on any tour level course.

Edited February 5 by rkj427

[Another Steve]

I didn’t read all of the responses. I have but one comment/argument FOR relief from a divot.

If said  fairway “divot”  were on the tee box of a par 3 and you would not be willing drop your ball into it to tee off then why should you have that penalty in the fairway?  We don’t play in sheep pastures anymore (well yeah, some courses DO resemble pastures, but come on now…)

[Stuka44]

8 hours ago, Another Steve said:

We don’t play in sheep pastures anymore

This is a valid point.  I can only believe that play it as it lies began because a good lie, was the exception to the rule, and those were the breaks back then.  However now the courses on which the pros play it as it lies, have absolutely no comparison to the conditions on which a vast majority of us are expected to play it as it lies.  They pile on by penalizing us further with divots, and unraked bunkers.  Golf, golfers, and the rule makers, need to dispense with the fantasy that we are playing the same game as professionals.

[RickyBobby_PR]

20 hours ago, ShimmyCocoBop said:

Furthermore, if finding your ball in a divot is considered a "bad break" and therefore you should be entitled to relief, should the reverse be true and you should not be entitled to a "good break"?

I’ve said this myself in other discussions on the topic. Everyone accepts the good breaks but doesn’t want to accept the bad ones. I hate the comparison to a tour event because there are plenty of times we see sees covered divots or a divot hole that a ball lands in or we see the ball rolling thru an area with divots and the commentators are talking about the possibility of it rolling in one. Plenty of tournaments have had pros in a divot hole that wasn’t filled or is freshly filled from a previous shot.

People make claims that aren’t exactly true or can be over exaggerated about what’s happening on a tour event, but yes they have staff that is doing daily maintenance of the course after each tournament round but also those courses do that on a regular basis anyways as their are high end courses. 
 

Some of the same people want free relief from tree roots, gravel in the rough to prevent injury or prevent damage to their club, rather than use the rules of golf and take an unplayable lie coating them a stroke.

 

[DaveP043]

1 hour ago, Stuka44 said:

They pile on by penalizing us further with divots, and unraked bunkers. 

The only people doing this piling on are the great nebulous "you".  Not any individual, but the people who play the game are inflicting these problems on themselves and on other players.  

[fixyurdivot]

On 2/2/2024 at 1:00 PM, EMacK1961 said:

On the courses I play, you are allowed to "bump" the ball in the fairway only. Generally speaking, I find that unfilled divots should be considered as ground under repair and you should be given relief. A filled divot, on the other hand, should be played as it lies. Just sayin'

I like the GUR angle/argument... especially when half of them don't have an attempted repair and more than half are angled off towards OB.  Nothing like hitting a great drive and having your ball nestled against a curb which you then must hit through.  Plus, technically speaking, they are in fact GUR the instant they are created... natural re-growth has started .

The author makes the claim that the "green is unique" as it pertains to a defense why not playing in a divot and making repairs is okay there but not on the fairway.  I disagree. If the "you should accept bad breaks just like to get good breaks" tenet is going to be used, then use it consistently.  Ever putted through a poorly seated/leveled hole plug?  How about that dinner plate sized sprinkler head cover on the apron between your ball and your intended putt line?  Yes, I know there are local rules that allow relief for that situation, we have them here... but using his argument, why?  And how about the "loose impediment" rule and Tiger's infamous move that boulder scene... pretty sure that was not an intended application.

I've always thought the rule of playing in fairway divots is dumb and this article has not changed my position on this.  I also feel the long standing argument that there is no way to define what a fairway divot is or is not is bologna.

 

[RickyBobby_PR]

10 minutes ago, fixyurdivot said:

The author makes the claim that the "green is unique" as it pertains to a defense why not playing in a divot and making repairs is okay there but not on the fairway.  I disagree. If the "you should accept bad breaks just like to get good breaks" tenet is going to be used, then use it consistently. 

The green is a different part of the course just as the general area is from a penalty area is and just as a penalty area is different from out of bounds, just as tee tee box is different from the general area.

They all have uniqueness to how rules apply. 
 

 

[RickyBobby_PR]

14 minutes ago, fixyurdivot said:

And how about the "loose impediment" rule and Tiger's infamous move that boulder scene... pretty sure that was not an intended application.

It was within the rules of golf and any player would have had the option. 

[DaveP043]

10 minutes ago, fixyurdivot said:

Plus, technically speaking, they are in fact GUR the instant they are created

No, Ground Under Repair has a specific (technical) Definition in the Rules of Golf, that Definition does NOT include random damage made by golfers.

12 minutes ago, fixyurdivot said:

The author makes the claim that the "green is unique"

The Putting Green IS unique in the way it is treated within the Rules of Golf.  Ever since 1960 you've been allowed to lift your ball at will, clean your ball, and repair pitch marks.  You can be penalized if your ball played from the green hits another ball at rest on the green.  Continued evolution to agronomy and maintenance has led to more recent changes, now accidental movement of a ball on the green is not penalized, and you can repair almost any damage. 

Its an interesting question for the "divot-relief" proponents, would you prefer to make things "equal" all over the course?  Play your ball down on the green, no marking and lifting, no cleaning, no repair of any damage.

 

[Hook DeLoft]

19 hours ago, Stuka44 said:

I'm not going to be drawn into the argument that this leads too.  I believe on a thread a few months ago.  My argument remains the same.    A following golfer especially in a professional tournament where , All professional tours with their pristine, courses, and every real impediment to play is marked as ground under repair before the event, on every hole.  And prior to play commencing all divots have been meticulously filled and manicured by the course staff.  I find it hard to believe that 14 -20 individual volunteers could not be found, with proper instruction from staff, on how to properly fill each divot after it is made.

If the person isn't going to be penalized immediately for not properly filling his divot, or raking a bunker, this is then  not a BAD BREAK, it is a codified advantage to early players over late ones!  If the first player for his first round, has no chance of finding an unfilled divot, or improperly raked bunker, and he as a 0% chance of receiving "a bad break" to find either conditions, then following players should also receive the same 0% chance. However "best" doesn't have to be perfect, but it should be the "best solution" that can be arrived at.

Oh and don't even get me started on the recreational game, where the divots on the courses I play, HAVE NEVER been fixed by the course, and from what I can see by any other golfer for that matter, and many places do not have sand to fill divots with in the carts.  And assuming that my course does rake the bunkers before play, and 100 people play before me and NONE of them rake the bunkers.  The first golfer who goes out and finds bunkers, got a BAD BREAK I GUESS, by hitting into the bunkers, but he find well manicured bunkers, with ZERO imperfections in the raking, and the best lies that can be found.  I am the 101st golfer, I hit the same 3 bunkers as the first golfer, which every other golfer has hit( and again nobody has raked)  Is it just a "bad break" that I am left to play off the surface of the moon, when every golfer before me had incrementally better conditions, when hitting the same bunkers.  It is not!  It is no more surprising, or unexpected,  than golfers ending up behind tv towers, or port a potties, or in some spectators lawn chair.  

The fact that my moon scenario, albeit very far fetched is possible, means that it is an  advantage for some, and a disadvantage for others, which should be addressed as best as possible, for professional and recreational play.    It is not a bad break.  A bad break would be something that happens, and nobody, would have expected it.  Leaving 150 unfilled divots in the fairway for the last guy, is indifference to a flawed situation, and the predictable potential disadvantage to the last guy of the day, that the first guy of the day was not in any way subject to.  That is NOT a BAD BREAK!

I get the feeling a lot of jerks play your local course!  It can become a spiral to the bottom.  At some point, enough people don't replace divots, rake bunkers and fix ball marks that everyone just gives up and starts exhibiting the same bad behavior.  I'm happy to say that everyone in my group does their part to keep the course in shape.

[Stuka44]

2 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

The only people doing this piling on are the great nebulous "you".  Not any individual, but the people who play the game are inflicting these problems on themselves and on other players.  

We have had this spirited discussion before.  One should not be hindered by a creation, or omission of another competitor, especially when those conditions are unknowable, and unavoidable but for the actions of another player.   Otherwise I would submit that then ALL KNOWABLE obstacles on the course, should be marked and measured out for the pros.  Knowing how far from the tee or fairway, each and every TV tower, port a potty, Ad sign is on the course.  Lets NOT just consider it a "bad break" when player A's approach is over-clubbed, and end up against the TV tower, which he was clearly aware was there, just like EVERY OTHER GOLFER, because they would be provided with information on how much room there is.  If some golfers are going to be hindered by other golfers, for not avoiding unknowable things, then each and every golfer should be hindered by ALL KNOWABLE THINGS.  After all hitting a ball behind something you know is there, is not a "bad break", it's bad execution or decision making, and said player should have to live with it.

The same logic should be applied, even more so in the case of TI OBST.   If I have to play out of, or take an unplayable because my ball ends up in a clear divot in the fairway deeper than my ball, then I should be benefitted for avoiding all of the TV towers we all know are there, when others do not.  They should either have to take an unplayable, or JUST CONSIDER IT A BAD BREAK,  and play over the TV tower.  Play it as it lies!  

Edited February 6 by Stuka44

[fixyurdivot]

14 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

It was within the rules of golf and any player would have had the option. 

We know that but I doubt the rules committee intended that application/scenario.  Perhaps it should be re-written with the stipulation that the player themselves must move the loose impediment.  Anyway, the point was that it was a bad break and short of having a fandom excavation team on hand, would have impaired his play.

15 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

No, Ground Under Repair has a specific (technical) Definition in the Rules of Golf, that Definition does NOT include random damage made by golfers.

The Putting Green IS unique in the way it is treated within the Rules of Golf.  Ever since 1960 you've been allowed to lift your ball at will, clean your ball, and repair pitch marks.  You can be penalized if your ball played from the green hits another ball at rest on the green.  Continued evolution to agronomy and maintenance has led to more recent changes, now accidental movement of a ball on the green is not penalized, and you can repair almost any damage. 

Its an interesting question for the "divot-relief" proponents, would you prefer to make things "equal" all over the course?  Play your ball down on the green, no marking and lifting, no cleaning, no repair of any damage.

 

We'll have to agree to disagree Dave.  The author is arguing for one standard but with stipulations... can't have it both ways.  As to your last question, no.  Just relief from fairway divots.  We don't expect to play in a divot on the green and we shouldn't have to on the faiway.  My opinion...ymmv.

[Stuka44]

20 minutes ago, Hook DeLoft said:

and fix ball marks that everyone just gives up and starts exhibiting the same bad behavior.  I'm happy to say that everyone in my group does their part to keep the course in shape.

Oh I try to do my part all the time, on another thread I noted this.  Sadly I don't just think it's jerks....It's people who play a lot of golf and JUST DON'T GIVE A CRAP!  Late October Early November here in NE Ohio, Its highs of 45-50 most of the time, most people playing in this kind of weather are pretty dedicated golfers.  On a round in November... I ACTUALLY KEPT TRACK.   I fixed a total of 38 deep gouging ball marks, 9 on one green, NOT COUNTING MY OWN, during one 18 hole round.  I am to be "legally" hindered by these people....I think not!  A couple of times I had to move my ball off to the side because I could not even out the gouging ball marks left, which were now hard as rocks!  Didn't take a stroke!  Pro's are NEVER faced with deep gouging un-repaired ball marks on a green!!

Edited February 6 by Stuka44

[DaveP043]

6 minutes ago, fixyurdivot said:

Perhaps it should be re-written with the stipulation that the player themselves must move the loose impediment. 

That would still lead to disparities in application, Bryson can move things that I'd never be able to budge, I can move things that my 85 year old friend can't.

9 minutes ago, fixyurdivot said:

We'll have to agree to disagree Dave.

I'm OK with disagreements, reasonable people can see the same thing in different ways.