Tony is too pessimistic about 2 leagues

[Jim Shaw]

Good morning everyone.

I don't usually get to read all the posts on all the topics however this one I really enjoyed getting a feel of what the "spy's" had to say. 

My first takeaway is that @cnosildidn't have all the facts and figures about the Neilson ratings on eyeballs on the telecasts (I looked and couldn't easily find them so gave up) 

Being retired and having golf as not only my passion but my hobby I watch a lot, play a lot, and generally talk a lot about golf. With the spy's on this site friends, family, enemies, frenemies, whoever wants to talk about it, always some feisty conversation comes about and if it isn't I push the buttons so we get some passion in the back and forth. 

Sooo... is televised golf in a bad place right now? Not at all, there are probably more people world wide watching golf than ever before due to communication being much more available. 

My sister said to me about a year ago, "I miss seeing Lee Westwood and Ian Poulter and some of the names I remember" that is a fact for many sideline watchers that can't identify with the newer golfers (which was mentioned in one post) so that is real.

My Nephews and Nieces are too busy raising a family and making money to watch a ton of golf so there is that demographic. (they will watch the Masters from start to finish but not all the majors unless there is a compelling storyline)

Then there is the group I hang with, we watch as much golf as we can and talk about it, ie: "Will Lydia Ko win this week to get into the hardest Hall of Fame in the world?" So there is that. 

I am sure this conversation has been beaten to death on different threads "maybe the LIV" thread but it is always fun to regurgitate it here... 

[GolfSpy_APH]

9 minutes ago, Jim Shaw said:

 

I am sure this conversation has been beaten to death on different threads "maybe the LIV" thread but it is always fun to regurgitate it here... 

The word fun with all of this is not what I would say. Exhausting and disappointing. 

The availability of the media to be consumed I don't think should be mistook for the whether people are enjoying or wanting to watch. Golf is available on a lot more platforms and areas to be viewed. That is true and sure ratings may be up or down depending on whatever stat you want to see or look at. I won't be the one to argue that. I can only say from the sentiments that I have received about pro golf from a distance here and who I talk to is that unless it is a major most don't care nearly as much as they used to. 

[chisag]

18 hours ago, Marlin Dave said:

I believe a man's decision to support his family is a personal thing and not for me to judge but the complaining and bashing of LIV by the announcers and Golf Digest , some players blah blah blah!!!! Who in the hell do they think they are??? 

 

... If someone like Jon Rahm at age 29 can't support his family with a career total of $51,546,651 he has some serious problems. I doubt anyone here had the problem at age 29 of not being able to take care of their family with only 51 million dollars he earned from the PGA Tour including endorsements. And yes we know who the hell they are: those that love golf, play golf on tour or cover golf in print or on TV are representative of the majority of us that will never watch LIV and no longer care about those that left the PGA Tour. 

 

[GolfSpy_APH]

@Jim Shaw taking a quick step back. Try not to think about the hard core golfer or golfers involved on the forum. Think about the casual fan (kinda like your niece and nephew). 

Why would they have reason to tune in and watch golf if a lot of who are considered the big names or best in golf are split? DJ and Bryson are huge names and they have to be watched on the CW or app in a shotgun start so the overall story of what is happening is far more difficult to tell or follow. Not to mention commercial loads for both LIV and PGA Tour are brutal at best. 

Heading over the PGA Tour they often switch between this app, platform, channel or something else. Then while we still get great new stories from unknown names, they are not what draw sponsors or larger views because it is the big names with the big sponsor money that draw more attention. Who would most rather watch number 155 in the world or an known name and commodity? 

Even looking at the winners this year on the PGA Tour while good stories, not big names. 

The hardcore fans are going to watch no matter what, its why they get that name. The casual fan however has more reasons to turn it off than to make a reason to watch. 

[Preeway]

15 minutes ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

 I can only say from the sentiments that I have received about pro golf from a distance here and who I talk to is that unless it is a major most don't care nearly as much as they used to. 

I can definitely agree with not caring as much as I used to about the weekly tournaments. Not because there are more names I don’t recognize but rather more from knowing that the tournaments are missing some of the best players that used to be there. The separation isn’t good for the game, at least in the short term. I think in a couple years from now (if a merger never happens) we will see a lot of the new names become established stars and the new normal will be fun to watch. Assuming that is, we all stick around while this process takes place. It’s a big if though in my opinion. 

[Guest-0]

4 minutes ago, chisag said:

 

... If someone like Jon Rahm at age 29 can't support his family with a career total of $51,546,651 he has some serious problems. I doubt anyone here had the problem at age 29 of not being able to take care of their family with only 51 million dollars he earned from the PGA Tour including endorsements. And yes we know who the hell they are: those that love golf, play golf on tour or cover golf in print or on TV are representative of the majority of us that will never watch LIV and no longer care about those that left the PGA Tour. 

 

So this is the point I said when I first answered, who are you or I to say what they should do or shouldn't do and why are people so deeply bothered by LIV??? If as you said "only a few good players went" then what has caused you to be upset about it??? And i don't mean just you, there is so much bashing of LIV it boggles my mind??? So what I havent seen is nobody seems to be mad at the PGA for not bargaining with them to put this crap to bed??? I don't fully understand but I wish it would work itself out because the watered down fields are lame and as an article by one of the Golf Spies on Google said, This year's field at the Players will be the worst in the history of the event and that sucks. I think I mentioned the split in Indy car racing and it was a mere two years and major networks dropped them and it was the death of that racing as we knew it. Iam not sure why these guys cannot cross pollinate between the PGA  The DP  Aussie Tour and the Asian tour like everyone used to do???? I know the Saudi have a bad reputation and as an ex military guy I totally get that part but is it so bad that the other tours cut them off????

[cnosil]

44 minutes ago, Jim Shaw said:

My first takeaway is that @cnosildidn't have all the facts and figures about the Neilson ratings on eyeballs on the telecasts (I looked and couldn't easily find them so gave up) 

Just to clarify,  I have provided no opinion on this topic.   I simply provided what I believe the OP was referencing which was a commentary by  @Tony Covey MGS  in the MGS daily newsletter.   If you don't know Tony,  he is one of the main people associated with MGS. 

If you want viewership numbers you can find them online in numerous articles

https://mygolfspy.com/news-opinion/liv-tv-ratings-search-for-second-broadcast-partner-remain-stagnant/

https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/golf/liv-golf-pga-tour-rahm-32162491

https://www.golfmagic.com/tour/pga-tour/golf-fans-shocked-latest-liv-golf-vs-pga-tour-tv-ratings-are-revealed

Edited March 9 by cnosil

[Guest-0]

18 minutes ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

@Jim Shaw taking a quick step back. Try not to think about the hard core golfer or golfers involved on the forum. Think about the casual fan (kinda like your niece and nephew). 

Why would they have reason to tune in and watch golf if a lot of who are considered the big names or best in golf are split? DJ and Bryson are huge names and they have to be watched on the CW or app in a shotgun start so the overall story of what is happening is far more difficult to tell or follow. Not to mention commercial loads for both LIV and PGA Tour are brutal at best. 

Heading over the PGA Tour they often switch between this app, platform, channel or something else. Then while we still get great new stories from unknown names, they are not what draw sponsors or larger views because it is the big names with the big sponsor money that draw more attention. Who would most rather watch number 155 in the world or an known name and commodity? 

Even looking at the winners this year on the PGA Tour while good stories, not big names. 

The hardcore fans are going to watch no matter what, its why they get that name. The casual fan however has more reasons to turn it off than to make a reason to watch. 

Great analogy!! If anyone is a little on the fence about what this split will do just look to Indy Car Racing,  Pro Bass Fishing and even remember the USFL??? Young people to my point will say "Whats Indy car racing"?? Or what do you mean Pro fishing??? And that's what happens and along the lines of what you were saying. Take away the Hero and all the villains and the show is lame!!! By the way folks did anyone see Phil's uuumm aaahh Highlights from yesterday??? He shot a cool 80 and in one round is down by like 18 strokes??? That's another issue and one LIV will have to address is who wants to watch last place plod along??? We that's what no cut golf gets you!!!!

[chisag]

2 minutes ago, Marlin Dave said:

So this is the point I said when I first answered, who are you or I to say what they should do or shouldn't do and why are people so deeply bothered by LIV??? If as you said "only a few good players went" then what has caused you to be upset about it??? And i don't mean just you, there is so much bashing of LIV it boggles my mind??? So what I havent seen is nobody seems to be mad at the PGA for not bargaining with them to put this crap to bed???  Iam not sure why these guys cannot cross pollinate between the PGA  The DP  Aussie Tour and the Asian tour like everyone used to do???? I know the Saudi have a bad reputation and as an ex military guy I totally get that part but is it so bad that the other tours cut them off????

 

... I don't think anyone is saying what they should or shouldn't do. What we are saying is actions have consequences and as entertainers their decisions can gain or lose fans. And bashing may be a bit of an over statement because again, LIV is just a form of entertainment although as you said "I know the Saudi have a bad reputation and as an ex military guy I totally get that part" so those of us that find a foreign govt with a "bad reputation" poaching players with obscene amounts of money a line in the sand we will not cross. Would opinions be different if it were the LIV Russian Putin Tour? But we live in a democracy (unlike the LIV owners) and if someone wants to take the blood money that is their choice and I won't bash them at all, I simply will not watch them or care about their careers. And I will add one thing that usually happens in these situations that I always find interesting. If you like and support LIV, I and many others have no problem at all with your choice. Yet some of those that support LIV seem upset others don't share their choice. 

... And to be fair having zero regard for LIV does not mean everyone unilaterally supports the PGA and DP tours. They had and have their own problems and were already a conglomeration of rich and spoiled out of touch with the common man athletes. 

[Jim Shaw]

28 minutes ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

@Jim Shaw taking a quick step back. Try not to think about the hard core golfer or golfers involved on the forum. Think about the casual fan (kinda like your niece and nephew). 

Why would they have reason to tune in and watch golf if a lot of who are considered the big names or best in golf are split? DJ and Bryson are huge names and they have to be watched on the CW or app in a shotgun start so the overall story of what is happening is far more difficult to tell or follow. Not to mention commercial loads for both LIV and PGA Tour are brutal at best. 

Heading over the PGA Tour they often switch between this app, platform, channel or something else. Then while we still get great new stories from unknown names, they are not what draw sponsors or larger views because it is the big names with the big sponsor money that draw more attention. Who would most rather watch number 155 in the world or an known name and commodity? 

Even looking at the winners this year on the PGA Tour while good stories, not big names. 

The hardcore fans are going to watch no matter what, its why they get that name. The casual fan however has more reasons to turn it off than to make a reason to watch. 

As I read through this thread and all the posts, as usual on this site we get, I would say, the whole gamut of players and personalities, all good in my opinion. 

I can only speak truthfully through my eyes and mostly this is what I see, and I know I am the minority as a hard core fan. 

The reason for my examples with my sister and family members is I understand every person has the right to make their viewing choices and opinions based on many different variables.

I miss DJ, Cameron Smith (mostly his putting skills) Koepka (mostly for his focus) and a few others on LIV and I have tried to follow them on LIV but I find it hard to shift to their coverage. My bad because I have become too familiar with the Network coverage of golf. 

 

 

 

[Jim Shaw]

26 minutes ago, cnosil said:

Just to clarify,  I have provided no opinion on this topic.   I simply provided what I believe the OP was referencing which was a commentary by  @Tony Covey MGS  in the MGS daily newsletter.   If you don't know Tony,  he is one of the main people associated with MGS. 

If you want viewership numbers you can find them online in numerous articles

https://mygolfspy.com/news-opinion/liv-tv-ratings-search-for-second-broadcast-partner-remain-stagnant/

https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/golf/liv-golf-pga-tour-rahm-32162491

https://www.golfmagic.com/tour/pga-tour/golf-fans-shocked-latest-liv-golf-vs-pga-tour-tv-ratings-are-revealed

I understand...if you were offended my me mentioning you in my post I will make sure I don't do it again... 

[cnosil]

8 minutes ago, Jim Shaw said:

I understand...if you were offended my me mentioning you in my post I will make sure I don't do it again... 

Wasn't offended and you are free to mention me.  I just wanted to clarify that the information in my post wasn't from me and was written by the MGS staff.    The LIV/PGA Tour topic is just something I tiptoe around due to the controversy and strong opinions.  

[funkyjudge]

49 minutes ago, Marlin Dave said:

So this is the point I said when I first answered, who are you or I to say what they should do or shouldn't do and why are people so deeply bothered by LIV??? If as you said "only a few good players went" then what has caused you to be upset about it??? And i don't mean just you, there is so much bashing of LIV it boggles my mind??? So what I havent seen is nobody seems to be mad at the PGA for not bargaining with them to put this crap to bed??? I don't fully understand but I wish it would work itself out because the watered down fields are lame and as an article by one of the Golf Spies on Google said, This year's field at the Players will be the worst in the history of the event and that sucks. I think I mentioned the split in Indy car racing and it was a mere two years and major networks dropped them and it was the death of that racing as we knew it. Iam not sure why these guys cannot cross pollinate between the PGA  The DP  Aussie Tour and the Asian tour like everyone used to do???? I know the Saudi have a bad reputation and as an ex military guy I totally get that part but is it so bad that the other tours cut them off????

Dave,  In that post, you have basically expressed my sentiments. I am certainly not a fan of the Saudis, their government and its policies or their Public Investment Fund. However, with our history here in the USA and around the globe, we have no place being self-righteous, and the PGA Tour definitely does not merit a place in the “clean” column when it comes to their alliances and the various sources of their revenues.

As you say, the PGA Tour fields are both watered-down and boring, and with the exodus of top-level players (Koepka, Rahm, Dustin Johnson, Cam Smith, Hatton, Niemann, and yes even DeChambeau, Oosthuizen, Poulter, etc.), their claim of having the “world’s best” professional golfers has zero validity.

If the PGA Tour does not get off of its high horse and come to grips with reality, it certainly faces the fate of becoming obsolete or irrelevant at best (it’s already approaching this status) …. and sooner than it thinks!

Edited March 9 by funkyjudge
Fixing Spellcheck’s errors

[GWScott]

18 minutes ago, Preeway said:

I can definitely agree with not caring as much as I used to about the weekly tournaments. Not because there are more names I don’t recognize but rather more from knowing that the tournaments are missing some of the best players that used to be there. The separation isn’t good for the game, at least in the short term. I think in a couple years from now (if a merger never happens) we will see a lot of the new names become established stars and the new normal will be fun to watch. Assuming that is, we all stick around while this process takes place. It’s a big if though in my opinion. 

Competing parties aren't likely to work out a merger quickly.  Too many interests to address.  But some sort of agreement likely will occur because (as just about everyone here agrees) a single, major tour will be more successful for those with the real votes. 

I agree with point above:  While negotiations quietly continue, a new generation of excellent players will emerge (or, more accurately, evolve) as these rising stars learn how to win and manage their careers.  It's happening now.  In a few years -- sorry for the wait -- the talent will be just as compelling as in past.  Many on LIV couldn't overlook the temptations of a richer, easier life with less travel, and they rationalized that shilling for the Saudi royals isn't so different than shilling for American sponsors. We're missing a few of the famous names, as well as a more international field. The top talents like Rahm, still in his prime, will eventually rejoin a combined tour. I imagine he's figuring on that.

Overall, though, my sense is that the longer the tours remain split, the less likely that LIV players (minus a few redhots like Rahm & Koepka) will retain their competitive edges. Fans won't 'need' them to the extent we think we need or miss them now. A notable portion of the better known LIV golfers were easing out of elite status anyway. That's one reason they opted for the money.  We'll see a newer model for a combined tour in a few more years. Until then, I'm eager to watch the new wave of ascending tour players and envy their athletic swings. 

[Guest-0]

47 minutes ago, chisag said:

 

... I don't think anyone is saying what they should or shouldn't do. What we are saying is actions have consequences and as entertainers their decisions can gain or lose fans. And bashing may be a bit of an over statement because again, LIV is just a form of entertainment although as you said "I know the Saudi have a bad reputation and as an ex military guy I totally get that part" so those of us that find a foreign govt with a "bad reputation" poaching players with obscene amounts of money a line in the sand we will not cross. Would opinions be different if it were the LIV Russian Putin Tour? But we live in a democracy (unlike the LIV owners) and if someone wants to take the blood money that is their choice and I won't bash them at all, I simply will not watch them or care about their careers. And I will add one thing that usually happens in these situations that I always find interesting. If you like and support LIV, I and many others have no problem at all with your choice. Yet some of those that support LIV seem upset others don't share their choice. 

... And to be fair having zero regard for LIV does not mean everyone unilaterally supports the PGA and DP tours. They had and have their own problems and were already a conglomeration of rich and spoiled out of touch with the common man athletes. 

Iam afraid either my writing is horrible and impossible to decipher but nowhere did I say I liked LIV nor did I say you were bashing it. I said I don't fault the players for going there and also scoffed when I was told "there are only a few good players there" to the tune of 331 wins on the PGA tour alone and that was only the 70% or so of the roster I checked. I think the whole thing is a shame and it will be the demise of Pro Golf as one of the Spies said in a piece on Google this morning the field for The Players Championship is absolutely terrible and the weakest it's ever been. I feel bad for the kids who are freshmen to Juniors in college just thinking about playing in a few years???? What will it be?

[chisag]

8 minutes ago, Marlin Dave said:

Iam afraid either my writing is horrible and impossible to decipher but nowhere did I say I liked LIV nor did I say you were bashing it. I said I don't fault the players for going there and also scoffed when I was told "there are only a few good players there" to the tune of 331 wins on the PGA tour alone and that was only the 70% or so of the roster I checked. I think the whole thing is a shame and it will be the demise of Pro Golf as one of the Spies said in a piece on Google this morning the field for The Players Championship is absolutely terrible and the weakest it's ever been. I feel bad for the kids who are freshmen to Juniors in college just thinking about playing in a few years???? What will it be?

 

... The whole thing is such a controversial topic with nuanced opinions and easy to confuse pieces of others opinions. I thought Funky Judge made a great post and while the US doesn't have clean hands, we all draw a line somewhere. I am also not a big PGA Tour fan so I rarely watch other than the Magors and a few other tournaments and agree the whole thing is just one big clusterfluke. 

[funkyjudge]

8 minutes ago, chisag said:

 

... The whole thing is such a controversial topic with nuanced opinions and easy to confuse pieces of others opinions. I thought Funky Judge made a great post and while the US doesn't have clean hands, we all draw a line somewhere. I am also not a big PGA Tour fan so I rarely watch other than the Magors and a few other tournaments and agree the whole thing is just one big clusterfluke. 

AMEN to that sentiment, Sam!

[Guest-0]

9 minutes ago, chisag said:

 

... The whole thing is such a controversial topic with nuanced opinions and easy to confuse pieces of others opinions. I thought Funky Judge made a great post and while the US doesn't have clean hands, we all draw a line somewhere. I am also not a big PGA Tour fan so I rarely watch other than the Magors and a few other tournaments and agree the whole thing is just one big clusterfluke. 

 A Scabgasm so to speak!!!   in the Army it would have been labeled FUBAR

[Donn lost in San Diego]

3 hours ago, GWScott said:

Competing parties aren't likely to work out a merger quickly.  Too many interests to address.  But some sort of agreement likely will occur because (as just about everyone here agrees) a single, major tour will be more successful for those with the real votes. 

I agree with point above:  While negotiations quietly continue, a new generation of excellent players will emerge (or, more accurately, evolve) as these rising stars learn how to win and manage their careers.  It's happening now.  In a few years -- sorry for the wait -- the talent will be just as compelling as in past.  Many on LIV couldn't overlook the temptations of a richer, easier life with less travel, and they rationalized that shilling for the Saudi royals isn't so different than shilling for American sponsors. We're missing a few of the famous names, as well as a more international field. The top talents like Rahm, still in his prime, will eventually rejoin a combined tour. I imagine he's figuring on that.

Overall, though, my sense is that the longer the tours remain split, the less likely that LIV players (minus a few redhots like Rahm & Koepka) will retain their competitive edges. Fans won't 'need' them to the extent we think we need or miss them now. A notable portion of the better known LIV golfers were easing out of elite status anyway. That's one reason they opted for the money.  We'll see a newer model for a combined tour in a few more years. Until then, I'm eager to watch the new wave of ascending tour players and envy their athletic swings. 

Your last sentence is why I started this topic.  Time always moves on as far as the great golfers of 5 to 10 years ago.   A few years ago we thought that Spieth and Thomas would run the table.  Didn't happen.   Now there are more young golfers getting a chance. 

[Donn lost in San Diego]

3 hours ago, Marlin Dave said:

Iam afraid either my writing is horrible and impossible to decipher but nowhere did I say I liked LIV nor did I say you were bashing it. I said I don't fault the players for going there and also scoffed when I was told "there are only a few good players there" to the tune of 331 wins on the PGA tour alone and that was only the 70% or so of the roster I checked. I think the whole thing is a shame and it will be the demise of Pro Golf as one of the Spies said in a piece on Google this morning the field for The Players Championship is absolutely terrible and the weakest it's ever been. I feel bad for the kids who are freshmen to Juniors in college just thinking about playing in a few years???? What will it be?

Thats ironic.  I don't feel bad for the future stars, the teens of today NCAA .  I think they have a greater future.  They have 3 pro tours to aim for, not just 2.   And as I pointed out, our NCAA golf is the world's most advanced and competitive place to be.  And the whole world is coming to the NCAA.  Who will recruit the best 20 or 30 senior college players?  The PGA/Korn ferry, or a Koepka or Cam Smith or Bryson in LIV?

[Guest-0]

57 minutes ago, Donn lost in San Diego said:

Thats ironic.  I don't feel bad for the future stars, the teens of today NCAA .  I think they have a greater future.  They have 3 pro tours to aim for, not just 2.   And as I pointed out, our NCAA golf is the world's most advanced and competitive place to be.  And the whole world is coming to the NCAA.  Who will recruit the best 20 or 30 senior college players?  The PGA/Korn ferry, or a Koepka or Cam Smith or Bryson in LIV?

You have a point my man!!!

[chisag]

1 hour ago, Donn lost in San Diego said:

I don't feel bad for the future stars, the teens of today NCAA .  I think they have a greater future.  They have 3 pro tours to aim for, not just 2.

 

... I think the fact that OWR points are not being awarded to liv, even though previously players were told they would be, means it is not a valid choice for NCAA future stars that want to compete in Majors and/or compare records with all the greats that have played the game. Is any NCAA future star really thinking "I just wanna join a good team and make a bunch of money but don't care about Majors or winning where Jack, Arnie, Tiger and Rory played and won." 

[funkyjudge]

18 minutes ago, chisag said:

 

... I think the fact that OWR points are not being awarded to liv, even though previously players were told they would be, means it is not a valid choice for NCAA future stars that want to compete in Majors and/or compare records with all the greats that have played the game. Is any NCAA future star really thinking "I just wanna join a good team and make a bunch of money but don't care about Majors or winning where Jack, Arnie, Tiger and Rory played and won." 

Short answer — yes, although in a very small minority I suspect, there are top level NCAA golfers who have that exact attitude.  I met one such college golfer less than two months ago. Whether or not he could make it to the PGA (or even the Korn Ferry) Tour is open to debate, but he was very clear that he would go for the LIV “money grab” if he were ever given a chance.

[Josh Parker]

28 minutes ago, funkyjudge said:

Short answer — yes, although in a very small minority I suspect, there are top level NCAA golfers who have that exact attitude.  I met one such college golfer less than two months ago. Whether or not he could make it to the PGA (or even the Korn Ferry) Tour is open to debate, but he was very clear that he would go for the LIV “money grab” if he were ever given a chance.

I tend to agree.  I think as a whole, money has become a necessity and between youtube and other quick money options, more will take the quick easy money. 

Unfortunately, history and the legends are overshadowed by the all mighty dollar.  LIV has shown that with several of the most recent players. Rahm said just last year 400 million wouldn't make a difference, so they offered 6 and he jumped, leaving behind legacy.  

[Dead Solid Bogey]

Would add that the massive explosion of need for NIL dollars for NCAA institutions is another example of the dollar being the final goal for that age group. 

[Josh Parker]

7 minutes ago, Dead Solid Bogey said:

Would add that the massive explosion of need for NIL dollars for NCAA institutions is another example of the dollar being the final goal for that age group. 

Agree!  College football was about the only football I would watch and then came along NIL and now they can't even go thru the bowl games because everyone is transferring during for an extra buck or offer. 

I have never been a huge sports watching guy, but it has become even less these days. 

[Donn lost in San Diego]

If you come from a poor impoverished place, a $5 million deal for 1 year on LIV is a gift from god.

[RickyBobby_PR]

On 3/9/2024 at 1:53 AM, GolfSpy_APH said:

There are a lot of meh players - but it doesn't need to be many.

Bryson, Rahm, Cam Smith, Brooks, Hatton (my personal favorite), DJ, Niemann and maybe a others are or would be considered top players. (Gooch is not in that list for be). 

Leishman and Louis were great to watch. 

The old crew are still good that would bring in attention and eyes regardless of how they perform. 

Anyway to each their own. I just feel that the longer this split goes on the worse it is for the fans and those that watch.

Hatton has had a mediocre pga tour career. Niemann has had better success and his isn’t that great either.

Cam Smith has done ok, potential to be one of the better ones.

The PGA tour is far from watered down. 
 

Bryson was hurt and struggling on the pga tour as a result and had he stayed rather than having a reduced schedule that didn’t require him to have to actually perform he would have continued to struggle.

Even if we included the 7 guys you mention that’s a tour of 47 others who aren’t that good anymore or ever.

 

[Wieskemp]

On 3/8/2024 at 3:13 PM, cnosil said:

Probably the opening in the MGS newletter from today.  Here it is if you don't subscribe:

Professional Golf is Screwed (and deserves to be)

In my estimation, there's zero change that LIV and the PGA Tour can co-exist and both succeed. The audience isn't there.

I watch a lot of soccer where the best players in the world are spread across 5 or 6 leagues. And while it's true that nobody watches Saudi soccer (including the Saudi's themselves), the global fanbase is broad enough such that there are enough eyeballs for everyone.

Professional golf is different. The audience pales in comparison, and not for anything, for those who care (or used to) your choice is rapidly become one between a league that exists only to make Saudi Arabia palatable for investment and tourism and another that is rapidly transforming into something that exists only to enrich the players that stuck around.

In either case, the fan experience is Golf, but shittier 

We aren't part of the conversation, and because of it, apathy towards the professional game is on the rise. With distribution of talent further diluting the game by the week, it won't be long before neither league is worth watching.

Maybe we're already there.

-TC

I'm reading a lot about the fans not being considered or having a voice in all this, and in the short term I think this is correct. In the long term though, the fans have the ultimate say.

 

If all the fans decide LIV is a better product and abandon the PGA Tour, the money will flow there and it will grow. If the fans decide the opposite, then the PGA Tour will be on the rise. The problem I see is that this isn't something that happens immediately. Both Organizations are trying to position and market themselves to where they think fans will turn their attention to. It'll be up to us to decide with our dollars, viewership, and engagement which direction the game will move in. Unfortunately, this takes time and there's no guarantee that fans will like whatever options arise in the near future. 

 

Regardless of what happens between LIV and the PGAT, in the long term, it'll be us, the fans that decide what succeeds (if any). 

[RickyBobby_PR]

1 hour ago, Wieskemp said:

It'll be up to us to decide with our dollars, viewership, and engagement which direction the game will move in. Unfortunately, this takes time and there's no guarantee that fans will like whatever options arise in the near future. 

 

It’s been 2 years and no sponsors are throwing money at LIV, no TV deals and viewership is down and LIV stopped reporting on them because of how bad they are. If they had the viewership numbers they would be celebrating them.

If that doesn’t say nobody cares about LIV despite an handful of top level golfers and a lot of recognizable names not sure what does.

CBS had an increase in viewership in 2023 which is impressive because a lot of what gets said about PGA tour golf is their TV vierwship is down, which has been happening across all TV shows due to cord cutting and streaming.