Penalty or no?

[DaveP043]

On 8/20/2020 at 6:23 PM, stuka44 said:

  I appreciated the  perspective,  about people being uneasy about the rules being set aside. I understand that the problems of golf, pace of play, cost, etc. are many and multi-faceted.   I think one of the biggest problems, relates to part of the comments.  I understand that some golfers  are members of private clubs, who keep a handicap for club championships, and weeknight golf leagues.  I've never participated in either of these. I would guess 75-90 percent of people playing on weekends at your local course do not fall into either of these categories.  So I'm unsure how or where I'm going to POST MY SCORE  where it is going to affect anyone else on the planet.  Again my scores are primarily for me alone.  Got to be honest have never used NET SCORE for anything in my life.  I have never got done with a round of golf and asked my buddies what their net score based on handicap was.  I also don't think most people out on the course are playing regularly for any kind of money.    So I have to be honest if a guy I'm playing with only wants to count every other stroke he makes, I could care less.  My overall point is this.  Golf needs players to keep courses from closing, and part of keeping players is speeding up the game, and have them play it quickly in whatever way they enjoy it.  People need to not be made to feel like they are being watched by some all powerful unseen golf rules entity, that will revoke their license to play the game if they don't follow the professional rules.  If you want to come out and tee off from 150 yards and play your round from there, doesn't bother me.  Any organized, or sanctioned  event I get it, follow whatever rules are agreed upon.  90 percent of people playing are not playing an organized event.  Golf needs to be more like other sports, where people are encouraged go out and participate in it in some fashion, without being judged, or looked down upon because they don't participate like or by the same rules as the professionals.  People go play tennis, without keeping score, in games and sets.  They just hit the ball back and forth, and go ahead and hit a ball that is out beyond the baseline, they don't stop the rally and call out. Even if playing a match with my daughter if I wan't to hit a ball of hers that was just beyond the baseline, on that occasion has the USTA been harmed in some way.     People shoot basketballs around and play one on one, two on two,  that's not sanctioned by the NBA.  There are hoops that can be lowered to make it easier and more enjoyable for youngsters.  

Golf needs to adapt, or there will soon be even fewer courses, and fewer players to keep those courses open.  The fact that Golf Magazine,  and many others have a section for rules questions is part of the problem with the game.  Anybody not playing in a club championship, or USGA sanctioned event who writes in about what the proper call is on this or that rules violation, and the discussion that likely occurred on the course over it, along with the guy LOOKING FOR HIS BALL IN THE ROUGH, BECAUSE THE RULES SAY HE IS GOING TO HAVE TO TAKE A STROKE, IF HE CAN'T FIND IT, WHEN UP UNTIL THIS YEAR I WOULD GUESS THAT BECAUSE OF FANS LESS THAN 50 BALLS IN THE LAST 10 YEARS  HAVE BEEN LOST BY PROFESSIONALS IN THE ROUGH(ridiculous double standard of a rule that really didn't apply to professionals, because they literally almost can't lose a ball in play on the course) have likely made the game less enjoyable for those delayed behind them.  These and many other things with the game that are stuck in a time warp, are contributing to its slow but steady decline in numbers of players, and courses to play.

            

Wait, you never compete, and you don't keep a handicap, so you don't really need to learn the rules, or play by them.  I'm absolutely fine with that. And you suggest (without any documentation) that up to 90% of all players don't compete, don't keep a handicap, and so don't really need the rules.  I think your percentage may be a little high (also with no documentation), but in general I agree.  But then you go on to say that the rules absolutely MUST be changed because we don't have a gallery to find our golf balls.  Seeing as how you claim that 90% of golfers don't need to care about rules in the first place, I don't see how the rules themselves are discouraging people from playing golf.  After all, you say 90% don't give a %$%$ about the rules anyway.

On 8/21/2020 at 8:13 AM, stuka44 said:

Not trying to get on a rant!, and there are exceptions, that can and will be I'm sure, pointed out to me.  But it IS A MAJOR PROBLEM, that golf is about the only sport on the planet that doesn't have youth league's, or leagues for adults,  where rules, the size of the field, the equipment that you use, are adjusted LIBERALLY to accommodate the young and inexperienced player.  T-Ball, shorter bases, Soccer Fields 1/4th the size, shorter hoops, larger tennis balls, lower nets, no offside(soccer until high school), only egregious traveling called, adult softball leagues where there are unlimited pinch runners so nobody dies of a heart attack, short bases, no walks(you got to swing) THE LIST GOES ON AND ON,    And golf, and golfers, unfortunately  promote the rigidity of the ancient rules, to youth and even to other adults, who are trying to learn, like if you don't follow them you won't be allowed into the hereafter.  How about youth leagues where 9 holes are set up at 970 yards(6o yard 3's,  150 yard 4's, and 200 yard 5's), and lets give the youth a little foam pad like a tee they can prop their ball up on at first to help them get it off the ground, balls that are almost like superballs so they get a little more distance regardless of how  well they make contact, and a hole 6" in diameter right in the middle of the green, and we don't play out of sand, and only swings where you make contact count.  Build our youth, and anyone else who wants to try to learn golf, that you can play it in any way you want to HAVE FUN, as long as you do so in a READY, NON DILLY DALLYING, DON'T GRIND OVER THAT 3 FOOTER FOR QUAD BOGEY ON A PAR 3 FASHION, COUNT IT A GIMME FROM ME, AND MOVE ON......   OH ! and by the way if you want to play in a league, or for  a club championship, here is a big ancient rule book that you'll have to brush up on before you participate in that!

Perhaps you've never heard of the Longleaf Tee Initiative, with sets up courses to play for many levels of beginner players, starting at 18 holes around 3200 yards.  Will this quell your outrage just a bit?

https://asgca.org/longleaf-tee-initiative/

One of the very best things about golf, in my opinion, is that we all play under the same set of rules.  For anyone who is just learning, I always suggest hitting every single shot from a tee, never playing from the rough, throwing the ball from a bunker after one attempt, find ways to enjoy the game .  I encouraged my wife to play this way when she was learning, while at the same time helping her to understand what the actual rules require.  Now she only plays by the rules, and often kicks my backside.  Just today I shot 76 (with a triple), and lost 2&1 to her.   There's lots of room in golf to play any way you choose to play, within the rules or not.  And for those of us who enjoy competition, even casual matches with friends, the rules are essential.  

As for the rules being ancient, again you're misguided.  The original rules essentially said you must play the ball as it lies, and play the course as you find it.  That simple.  But also that difficult.  The rules have consistently become more lenient in almost every single revision, offering more "outs" for difficult situations over the years.  That's where the complexity comes from, but you can never go wrong if you play your ball as it lies. The most recent changes, just a year ago, eased many penalties, and made the rules more consistent and easier to understand.  But again, don't worry about the rules, play golf in any form that you enjoy.  And if we ever get paired together on the first tee somewhere, I'm sure we'll have a great day together.

[Stuka44]

Dave P:  I'm not really that outraged,  I'm just  concerned for the long term health of the game.  Probably not so much for me I'm 54 years old already, but for both my girls who play.  I guess some would say maybe we have too many course in my area, and  only so many can be supported.  Lake County Ohio, immediately east of Cleveland(Cuyahoga County) 230,000 people live here geographically the smallest in the state, population probably top 15. Fortunately for now  We still have many options in this county and surrounding counties. BUT   Last 15 years...  Fairway Pines (Closed), Peppridge Tree (9 Hole closed), Casement Club (9 Hole Closed),  Thunderhill opened back up 2008, (Closed 2011-12, along with its par 3 kids course).  Adjacent counties Wicked Woods (closed now park), Harbour Golf Club closed 2017,  Berkshire Hills (heard last month its closing, can't confirm),  Orchard Hills (closed 20 years ago), Grandview Golf Course (closed @ 2015), and many others I fear would have closed, but have been bought by a larger group, (CleGolf Group), from private owners in the hopes of keeping them open.  Hopefully the better courses they own, will offset these lower tier ones, and they'll stay open.  Not to mention that two courses were purchased by the city government  they were in to avoid closing, and two others which would have closed were bought by our Lake Metroparks.  Sadly I'm sure there are others in Geauga, and Ashtabula, and likely even Cuyahoga county that have closed.   Its like many things in life, they happen so subtly that you don't notice  it until its over, or their gone.  I don't want golf, or places to play golf to suffer that fate.  That's why every physical thing, the attitude of everyone involved with the game(at every level, the rules, courses, needs to be evaluated.  Everything about the game needs to be evaluated against the standard of "does THIS(WHATEVER THIS IS)  contributing or detract from  someone trying and sticking with the game, or is it not.

               The NCAA (at the division 3 level) are the type of THINGS I am referring to. Division 3 where the average score of most girls participating is 90-110.  Many schools who showed up at my daughters tournaments were struggling to have 5 girls to register and official score for the event, and had some beginners just starting out.  Because division 3 there are NO scholarships, and everyone plays just to be involved with their schools sports, while being a full time student.  How did the NCAA make golf more enjoyable for the @ 2000 division 3 players. They artificially inflated the minimum length for a course to be an "official" event to 5800 yards.  Almost all high school women's golf is played at 4900-5200 yards (front tees).  Imagine going out and enjoying the game from  6900-7300 with the added 600-800 yards, when you go out and play.  These are the things I refer to.  Now I hear that the NCAA is thinking of reducing this.  I would like to believe its in part to the scathing emails I sent to the NCAA about how ridiculous it was.  It's not about the top players shooting "too low" a score, it should be about helping the high handicappers involved in division 3 score better and ENJOY THE GAME, AND KEEP PLAYING. 

[DaveP043]

6 hours ago, stuka44 said:

Dave P:  I'm not really that outraged,  I'm just  concerned for the long term health of the game.  Probably not so much for me I'm 54 years old already, but for both my girls who play.  I guess some would say maybe we have too many course in my area, and  only so many can be supported.  Lake County Ohio, immediately east of Cleveland(Cuyahoga County) 230,000 people live here geographically the smallest in the state, population probably top 15. Fortunately for now  We still have many options in this county and surrounding counties. BUT   Last 15 years...  Fairway Pines (Closed), Peppridge Tree (9 Hole closed), Casement Club (9 Hole Closed),  Thunderhill opened back up 2008, (Closed 2011-12, along with its par 3 kids course).  Adjacent counties Wicked Woods (closed now park), Harbour Golf Club closed 2017,  Berkshire Hills (heard last month its closing, can't confirm),  Orchard Hills (closed 20 years ago), Grandview Golf Course (closed @ 2015), and many others I fear would have closed, but have been bought by a larger group, (CleGolf Group), from private owners in the hopes of keeping them open.  Hopefully the better courses they own, will offset these lower tier ones, and they'll stay open.  Not to mention that two courses were purchased by the city government  they were in to avoid closing, and two others which would have closed were bought by our Lake Metroparks.  Sadly I'm sure there are others in Geauga, and Ashtabula, and likely even Cuyahoga county that have closed.   Its like many things in life, they happen so subtly that you don't notice  it until its over, or their gone.  I don't want golf, or places to play golf to suffer that fate.  That's why every physical thing, the attitude of everyone involved with the game(at every level, the rules, courses, needs to be evaluated.  Everything about the game needs to be evaluated against the standard of "does THIS(WHATEVER THIS IS)  contributing or detract from  someone trying and sticking with the game, or is it not.

               The NCAA (at the division 3 level) are the type of THINGS I am referring to. Division 3 where the average score of most girls participating is 90-110.  Many schools who showed up at my daughters tournaments were struggling to have 5 girls to register and official score for the event, and had some beginners just starting out.  Because division 3 there are NO scholarships, and everyone plays just to be involved with their schools sports, while being a full time student.  How did the NCAA make golf more enjoyable for the @ 2000 division 3 players. They artificially inflated the minimum length for a course to be an "official" event to 5800 yards.  Almost all high school women's golf is played at 4900-5200 yards (front tees).  Imagine going out and enjoying the game from  6900-7300 with the added 600-800 yards, when you go out and play.  These are the things I refer to.  Now I hear that the NCAA is thinking of reducing this.  I would like to believe its in part to the scathing emails I sent to the NCAA about how ridiculous it was.  It's not about the top players shooting "too low" a score, it should be about helping the high handicappers involved in division 3 score better and ENJOY THE GAME, AND KEEP PLAYING. 

To me, even the previous posts were pretty far from the original topic, which asked whether we each play using some variation of a "leaf rule" for unexpectedly lost balls or not.  At least the rules were involved in the previous posts.  But the financial health of various facilities is way way off topic, as is the decisions regarding playing distance for NCAA golf competitions.  I'm not saying these aren't issues worthy of their own thread, but I'm not going to chase this particular rabbit further down its hole.

[Stuka44]

No I get it, and I appreciate your perspective, and responses.  My point is that its a discussion that everyone involved in golf in every fashion should be having.  Here on this thread, or somewhere.  I think my point is that its these seemingly  isolated things, looking for lost ball, how the game is presented to new players, lack of youth leagues, rigid rules, slow play all of the things I touched on maybe inappropriately on this thread, individually don't seem to be that big of a deal.  All combined together, occurring over and over, in combination, here and there at courses is what contributes to problems in golf and sometimes the closing of courses.  Sometimes courses close just because the owner wants to put up condos.  But we all need to do whatever we can to keep new players playing the game.   Thanks for the exchange of ideas.

[dlow206]

I hate the penalty for losing a ball when you know it didn't go OB or in a hazard, but it is what it is. When I am playing by myself, I sometimes have a hard to finding my ball. But if someone helps me look, we usually find it. I've lost some that are a few yards into the rough, not even long rough.

[BIG STU]

On 6/2/2020 at 9:46 AM, DaveP043 said:

I play with a group of guys who all play pretty much by the rules.  If we know there are issues with leaves, we might decide to play a "leaf rule" before we start.  But if we haven't discussed it before play, we'd call it a lost ball and take the penalty.  This isn't high-stakes gambling, this is small potatoes, and we're all friends, but we've made a conscious choice to follow all of the rules.  With different groups of friends, we'd take a free drop.

That basically how we do it. If one is keeping a stipulated handicap then yes take the penalty. But most of the groups I play in now 99% of us do not keep a stipulated handicap nor play in comps requiring one and it is friendly low stakes if any

[BIG STU]

On 8/21/2020 at 8:13 AM, stuka44 said:

Not trying to get on a rant!, and there are exceptions, that can and will be I'm sure, pointed out to me.  But it IS A MAJOR PROBLEM, that golf is about the only sport on the planet that doesn't have youth league's, or leagues for adults,  where rules, the size of the field, the equipment that you use, are adjusted LIBERALLY to accommodate the young and inexperienced player.  T-Ball, shorter bases, Soccer Fields 1/4th the size, shorter hoops, larger tennis balls, lower nets, no offside(soccer until high school), only egregious traveling called, adult softball leagues where there are unlimited pinch runners so nobody dies of a heart attack, short bases, no walks(you got to swing) THE LIST GOES ON AND ON,    And golf, and golfers, unfortunately  promote the rigidity of the ancient rules, to youth and even to other adults, who are trying to learn, like if you don't follow them you won't be allowed into the hereafter.  How about youth leagues where 9 holes are set up at 970 yards(6o yard 3's,  150 yard 4's, and 200 yard 5's), and lets give the youth a little foam pad like a tee they can prop their ball up on at first to help them get it off the ground, balls that are almost like superballs so they get a little more distance regardless of how  well they make contact, and a hole 6" in diameter right in the middle of the green, and we don't play out of sand, and only swings where you make contact count.  Build our youth, and anyone else who wants to try to learn golf, that you can play it in any way you want to HAVE FUN, as long as you do so in a READY, NON DILLY DALLYING, DON'T GRIND OVER THAT 3 FOOTER FOR QUAD BOGEY ON A PAR 3 FASHION, COUNT IT A GIMME FROM ME, AND MOVE ON......   OH ! and by the way if you want to play in a league, or for  a club championship, here is a big ancient rule book that you'll have to brush up on before you participate in that!

I know down here they did have several traveling golf leagues for youths just like baseball does. You will see the courses marked with different teeing grounds for the different ages. I know this summer it was cancelled for the Covid thing. But I do not know any real details since we do not have kids or Grandkids. I have done some club work free of charge for some of the kids in the past.

[Reesedw]

When I was in a golf league we had a standing rule, Any ball that is lost in the fairway or everyone agrees of where the ball should be (Plugged, in the leaves, ect ) and is not findableas long as everyone agrees this is where the ball should be, Free drop, within reason. if you slice it into the next county your screwed, but if it lands just off the fairway, in the fairway( yours) then drop and play on.  Living in the Pacific NorthWet It is not uncommon in spring or fall for balls to plug in the middle of the fairway and not be found, or in the leaves.. the key is everyone has to agree, and it is league, this is a gentleman's game.