Hitting UP on the ball with driver.

[IONEPUTT]

I just watched a video about how to spend 2 minutes to gain 30 yards off the tee with one simple change to your driver set-up. Here is a link to the video if you think you might like to try it out. 

When I watched the video I was thinking I might find something NEW to try, but what I found was something I came up with on my own about 10 years at and have been doing ever since with great results. I teach it to a lot of golfers when I go to the range and give a leasson to someone struggling with hitting their driver. This is the only video I have ever seen that mentions this idea and it should be standard advice for ALL drivre lessons in my opinion as it works great for hitting up on the ball with little or no effort. 

[Goober]

Why have 2 swings ? Or two philosophies ? It’s one swing , one intent. After attending the Tour Striker Clinic it all makes sense now. You’re creating a real mess following that video. Personally go find a real good pro and learn and master one swing intent for all clubs 

[RI_Redneck]

The swing isn't different, the ball placement is. The guy in the video is simply pointing out what many ams do when they ATTEMPT to hit "up on the ball". I've seen it many times and what he says works to open their eyes.

BT

[IONEPUTT]

It's now a month later and I wanted to point out something about that video about hitting UP at the ball.  One thing the guy FAILED to mention and which is the True Secret to the tip is that you should LOOK at a sppt right in front of your driver when it's well back of the ball. Focus on a spot well behind the ball and you have a much greater chance of having the Bottom of your swing well behind the ball so your club head is able to move UPwards when it contacts the ball. I've been dont this for a long time now and it works quite well for me and those I've taught this tip to over the yearss. If you look at the ball you tend to have the bottom of your swing right behind the ball and when you look at a point some 6-8 inches behind the ball your bottom of your swing tends to be well behind the ball and you can hit UP at the ball with no problems. 

[IONEPUTT]

On 12/14/2022 at 3:01 AM, Goober said:

Why have 2 swings ? Or two philosophies ? It’s one swing , one intent. After attending the Tour Striker Clinic it all makes sense now. You’re creating a real mess following that video. Personally go find a real good pro and learn and master one swing intent for all clubs 

I don't know about you, but I try to hit UP on the ball with my driver and woods then hitting off a tee for a higher launch angle and more carry distance, which is what most of the tour pros are doing. That is NOT what most golfers want to do when hitting balls with an iron. With an iron most golfers try to hit down on the ball at least a little to get more spin. NOT the same as what you want with your driver. So there should be two swings in terms of hitting down or up. You might wnat to try it yourself and you might learn a little about this craxy game you have not liearned so far. 

[cnosil]

15 minutes ago, IONEPUTT said:

I don't know about you, but I try to hit UP on the ball with my driver and woods then hitting off a tee for a higher launch angle and more carry distance, which is what most of the tour pros are doing. That is NOT what most golfers want to do when hitting balls with an iron. With an iron most golfers try to hit down on the ball at least a little to get more spin. NOT the same as what you want with your driver. So there should be two swings in terms of hitting down or up. You might wnat to try it yourself and you might learn a little about this craxy game you have not liearned so far. 

Several points:

1. Per trackman numbers, the average PGA tour pro has a descending AoA with the driver. -1.3*.   There are pros that have an ascending AoA but I have never seen anything that indicates “most” have a positive AoA.  LPGA and amateurs probably benefit more from a positive AoA due to slower swing speeds and the desire to maximize distance.  

2.  IMO, it could be a single swing as ball placement and low point determine the AoA at impact.  With irons the ball is typically farther back in our stance and  moving the low point to in front of the ball results in a downward AoA.   With the driver, the ball is farther up in our stance with a low point behind the ball so we hit the ball on the upward portion of our swing thus the positive AoA.   “Trying” to hit up or down may not be the best approach and I have also heard instructions that describe the feel of pulling the handle up with irons.    

multiple ways to swing a club. 

 

[THEZIPR23]

59 minutes ago, cnosil said:

Several points:

1. Per trackman numbers, the average PGA tour pro has a descending AoA with the driver. -1.3*.   

 

 

I wonder if this has changed more recently, the trackman report that always gets circulated is from 2014. I haven't seen an updated one. 

[cnosil]

15 minutes ago, THEZIPR23 said:

I wonder if this has changed more recently, the trackman report that always gets circulated is from 2014. I haven't seen an updated one. 

Could be.  Would be a nice number to show when they put of the graphics during the events.   As younger players get on tour it is probably increasing since this is what is being pushed.  

[IONEPUTT]

The longest hitting on tour with a driver is Dechambeau and he uses a driver with about 5* of loft and he hits up on the ball in the area of 5-6 degrees from what I've seen in videos of his. Hitting up with a driver gives more carry and less spin for more total distance, which is pretty much everyone wants with a driver. While I admit I'm NOT a big fan of his swing, it's pretty hard to argue with his results when he can hit a ball over 340 yards carry when he needs to. 

[cnosil]

18 hours ago, IONEPUTT said:

The longest hitting on tour with a driver is Dechambeau and he uses a driver with about 5* of loft and he hits up on the ball in the area of 5-6 degrees from what I've seen in videos of his. Hitting up with a driver gives more carry and less spin for more total distance, which is pretty much everyone wants with a driver. While I admit I'm NOT a big fan of his swing, it's pretty hard to argue with his results when he can hit a ball over 340 yards carry when he needs to. 

Yes,  I have seen videos of him hitting up in the range of  11 degrees,  Rory hits up 2-3,  Bubba in the 5 degree range,  Rahm in the 5 degree range.   On the tours, some players hit more up, some players hit more level, and some hit down.     Cameron Champ who was statistically the longest driver on tour in 2022 plays a more traditional driver setup and hits down on the ball because he prefers a lower trajectory.  

Everyone is different, I am typically a low spin player with the driver and when my swing gets 2-3 degrees up I can hit the ball farther, but I can also hit a large number of snap hooks as well.   Based on data collected on GCQuad,  I get better and more consistent  launch, spin, and distance when I have a more level swing.   Could I get more distance if I altered my swing?  Potentially.   

After all of that,  I still support the premise that @Goobers instructor told him and that not all players need two swings to play this game or to swing UP with the driver.   The bigger question would be HOW is the up generated.  Is the player changing something about their swing?  Is it just that the ball is more forward in their stance?   Amateurs could potentially be better utilizing a single swing instead of consciously trying to hit up in the ball as the swing dynamic of hitting up on the ball could result in poorer play.   We can only provide advice that has worked for us.   Maybe explain how you swing differently for a driver and an iron to supplement your statement that a player needs to do this?  

 

[GolfSpy_APH]

1 minute ago, cnosil said:

Yes,  I have seen videos of him hitting up in the range of  11 degrees,  Rory hits up 2-3,  Bubba in the 5 degree range,  Rahm in the 5 degree range.   On the tours, some players hit more up, some players hit more level, and some hit down.     Cameron Champ who was statistically the longest driver on tour in 2022 plays a more traditional driver setup and hits down on the ball because he prefers a lower trajectory.  

Everyone is different, I am typically a low spin player with the driver and when my swing gets 2-3 degrees up I can hit the ball farther, but I can also hit a large number of snap hooks as well.   Based on data collected on GCQuad,  I get better and more consistent  launch, spin, and distance when I have a more level swing.   Could I get more distance if I altered my swing?  Potentially.   

After all of that,  I still support the premise that @Goobers instructor told him and that not all players need two swings to play this game or to swing UP with the driver.   The bigger question would be HOW is the up generated.  Is the player changing something about their swing?  Is it just that the ball is more forward in their stance?   Amateurs could potentially be better utilizing a single swing instead of consciously trying to hit up in the ball as the swing dynamic of hitting up on the ball could result in poorer play.   We can only provide advice that has worked for us.   Maybe explain how you swing differently for a driver and an iron to supplement your statement that a player needs to do this?  

 

Pretty sure I have about 29 different driver swings and about 15 different feels for a single swing. Never know what is going to feel better or work and can change day to day round to round. 

I can only imagine trying to consciously try have two distinct different swings would lead to absolute disaster. 

I'm sure some can do it just fine. However I'll try and work on my neutral solid single swing vs two different ones. 

Golf is hard enough as is.

[IONEPUTT]

1 hour ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

Pretty sure I have about 29 different driver swings and about 15 different feels for a single swing. Never know what is going to feel better or work and can change day to day round to round. 

I can only imagine trying to consciously try have two distinct different swings would lead to absolute disaster. 

I'm sure some can do it just fine. However I'll try and work on my neutral solid single swing vs two different ones. 

Golf is hard enough as is.

You do NOT have to make two different swings, Just place the driver head 6-7 inches behind the ball and ball position will do rhe rest for you with one swing, not two. 

[GolfSpy_BNG]

Maybe I’m not following correctly but almost every club is swung slightly different. You may feel like it is the same but unless you are playing single length shafts, your stance, posture, and ball placement are ever so slightly different. You can not swing a driver or fairway the same as a 9 or PW. At least not from my view. 
 

As for the original point of the thread, yes you can possibly gain more distance by hitting up on the ball. Launch goes up and spin goes down.   Results will always vary golfer to golfer. 

[cnosil]

23 hours ago, IONEPUTT said:

So there should be two swings in terms of hitting down or up. You might wnat to try it yourself and you might learn a little about this craxy game you have not liearned so far. 

 

19 minutes ago, IONEPUTT said:

You do NOT have to make two different swings, Just place the driver head 6-7 inches behind the ball and ball position will do rhe rest for you with one swing, not two. 

This is why what you said is confusing.   One post you should have two swings and and another that says you don't have to make two swings.  

[cnosil]

8 minutes ago, blackngold_blood said:

Maybe I’m not following correctly but almost every club is swung slightly different. You may feel like it is the same but unless you are playing single length shafts, your stance, posture, and ball placement are ever so slightly different. You can not swing a driver or fairway the same as a 9 or PW. At least not from my view. 

Yes,  ball position, setup, length of club will influence the swing,  but do you consciously alter your swing to swing up with a driver or swing down with irons?    I don't personally try to do anything different;  Ball farther forward for driver,  ball  farther back for irons - low point position determines AoA.   There are of course exceptions to this - for short game shots I may be more steep or more shallow based on lie or when trying to work the ball, etc.    For stock iron or tee shots it is single swing.

[GolfSpy_BNG]

2 minutes ago, cnosil said:

Yes,  ball position, setup, length of club will influence the swing,  but do you consciously alter your swing to swing up with a driver or swing down with irons?    I don't personally try to do anything different;  Ball farther forward for driver,  ball  farther back for irons - low point position determines AoA.   There are of course exceptions to this - for short game shots I may be more steep or more shallow based on lie or when trying to work the ball, etc.    For stock iron or tee shots it is single swing.

I completely agree with you. My comment is while you or I may not consciously think I need to hit up or down in the ball, the clubs are still swung differently. Also some golfers when learning or working on something may consciously say that very thing.  

I guess my problem with the comments(not specifically yours) are technically it isn’t a single swing. Saying it is can confuse those just getting into the game or trying to improve. 

[IONEPUTT]

16 minutes ago, cnosil said:

 

This is why what you said is confusing.   One post you should have two swings and and another that says you don't have to make two swings.  

Please re-read what I posted, I did NOT say to make two swings, I said you make two swings IN TERMS of hitting up or down, that is NOT the same thing as making two different swings. It's only confusing to you because you failed to read the entire sentence to the end. 

[cnosil]

12 minutes ago, IONEPUTT said:

Please re-read what I posted, I did NOT say to make two swings, I said you make two swings IN TERMS of hitting up or down, that is NOT the same thing as making two different swings. It's only confusing to you because you failed to read the entire sentence to the end. 

I have reread it multiple times and hence the reason for my responses.  Even highlighting the "IN TERMS" doesn't clarify.....oh well.

[GolfSpy_APH]

1 hour ago, IONEPUTT said:

You do NOT have to make two different swings, Just place the driver head 6-7 inches behind the ball and ball position will do rhe rest for you with one swing, not two. 

Moving the ball that far is going to do what you say in promote a increased AoA, but it is also going to have significant other implications on your swing with timing, start line and more. I'm afraid it isn't that simple and if i was too do that then the ball is going to be in front of my lead foot which is not good.

[chisag]

33 minutes ago, blackngold_blood said:

I guess my problem with the comments(not specifically yours) are technically it isn’t a single swing. Saying it is can confuse those just getting into the game or trying to improve. 

 

... As much as we would like to think our swings are the same, they are not for a variety of reasons. First and foremost you are swinging a driver to hit the ball as far as possible, while swinging an iron to go a very specific distance. You want more spin with an iron and less spin with a driver. As you and cnosil have stated posture, stance and plane are different. But to address this topic, you never want to swing Up on the ball and it is a recipe for topped and thin shots. You want to swing level with the ball position high on the tee and at your front foot catching the ball on the Up-swing because the low point has been passed and the clubbed is ascending if you want max distance. Ideally we should just swing the club and the ball gets in the way. Many very skilled players with distance to spare will hit a driver with a descending club head because it produces more spin and at their level, spin means control. 

... Fwiw, I have always felt swinging level and attempting to contact the ball with a level swing produces the best results for the majority of players. Ball position with an iron will bottom out in front of the ball with a level swing and ball position with a driver will bottom out behind the ball with a level swing. Attempting to hit Up or Down almost always causes contact problems. 

[GolfSpy BOS]

1 hour ago, IONEPUTT said:

Please re-read what I posted, I did NOT say to make two swings, I said you make two swings IN TERMS of hitting up or down, that is NOT the same thing as making two different swings. It's only confusing to you because you failed to read the entire sentence to the end. 

You forgot to make the “S” in terms bold. 
 

I didn’t read the rest but that set my OCD off. 

[fixyurdivot]

On 12/13/2022 at 2:57 PM, IONEPUTT said:

I just watched a video about how to spend 2 minutes to gain 30 yards off the tee with one simple change to your driver set-up. Here is a link to the video if you think you might like to try it out. 

When I watched the video I was thinking I might find something NEW to try, but what I found was something I came up with on my own about 10 years at and have been doing ever since with great results. I teach it to a lot of golfers when I go to the range and give a leasson to someone struggling with hitting their driver. This is the only video I have ever seen that mentions this idea and it should be standard advice for ALL drivre lessons in my opinion as it works great for hitting up on the ball with little or no effort. 

Nice tip, thanks for sharing.

[fixyurdivot]

On 1/13/2023 at 12:41 PM, cnosil said:

Several points:

1. Per trackman numbers, the average PGA tour pro has a descending AoA with the driver. -1.3*.   There are pros that have an ascending AoA but I have never seen anything that indicates “most” have a positive AoA.  LPGA and amateurs probably benefit more from a positive AoA due to slower swing speeds and the desire to maximize distance.  

2.  IMO, it could be a single swing as ball placement and low point determine the AoA at impact.  With irons the ball is typically farther back in our stance and  moving the low point to in front of the ball results in a downward AoA.   With the driver, the ball is farther up in our stance with a low point behind the ball so we hit the ball on the upward portion of our swing thus the positive AoA.   “Trying” to hit up or down may not be the best approach and I have also heard instructions that describe the feel of pulling the handle up with irons.    

multiple ways to swing a club. 

 

Also an interesting point.  My fitting showed me at approx. -0.5 deg and I thought he was going to tell me that was no bueno... but he mentioned the same thing about pro swings.  I wonder however if, because of both their ability to consistently hit the screws and high swing speed, making comparisons with amateurs an apples to oranges discussion?

I do tend to set my driver on the ground right behind the ball.  This set-up is sure easy to test out and see what if any gains it yields.  Maybe even placing it a couple inches back might help?

[GolfSpy BOS]

1 hour ago, fixyurdivot said:

Also an interesting point.  My fitting showed me at approx. -0.5 deg and I thought he was going to tell me that was no bueno... but he mentioned the same thing about pro swings.  I wonder however if, because of both their ability to consistently hit the screws and high swing speed, making comparisons with amateurs an apples to oranges discussion?

I do tend to set my driver on the ground right behind the ball.  This set-up is sure easy to test out and see what if any gains it yields.  Maybe even placing it a couple inches back might help?

Do you know what system that was on? To further confuse the topic Trackman and GC Quad measure it differently (I think it’s right before vs right after contact, but I am not positive) so you may be level on one but +2 or 3 on the other. 
 

I recall Ian talking about that one some TXG club reviews in the past. 

[Garry Delaplane]

Possibly one of the greatest drivers of the golf ball was MO Norman. Not the longest but definitely one of the most accurate. He incorporated a setup with the clubbed 6"+/- behind the ball.

[RickyBobby_PR]

As Monte says think of swinging driver neutral and launch, spin, etc will take care of itself. Trying ti hit up on driver is what gets amateurs into all kinds of problems. 
 

 

[fixyurdivot]

11 hours ago, GolfSpy_BOS said:

Do you know what system that was on? To further confuse the topic Trackman and GC Quad measure it differently (I think it’s right before vs right after contact, but I am not positive) so you may be level on one but +2 or 3 on the other. 
 

I recall Ian talking about that one some TXG club reviews in the past. 

It was GC Quad.  I never removed the silver dots from my driver face and their still intact (well, mostly so) 2+ years later .  Do you know whether GC Quad tends to read to the negative or positive side and by how much?  

Because I had just acquired the G410P (forum tester), I wasn't wanting to invest in any new heads.  He did see better numbers wit the KBS vs. stock Alta CB shaft, and I subsequently picked one up.  I also asked about the 9 deg and whether we should adjust that up... but he didn't think that was needed.

One of my focus areas for this season is distance gain, particularly driver.  As the shaft lengths get longer, the tendency for the distance killing fade increases.  This driver head position and focus spot are easy enough to test, and the presenters numbers were most definitely eye popping, so I'm going to give it a go.

[IONEPUTT]

On 1/14/2023 at 1:07 PM, GolfSpy_APH said:

Moving the ball that far is going to do what you say in promote a increased AoA, but it is also going to have significant other implications on your swing with timing, start line and more. I'm afraid it isn't that simple and if i was too do that then the ball is going to be in front of my lead foot which is not good.

I did NOT tell anyone to move the BALL 6-7 inches at set-up. What I wrote was to move the driver head back 6-7 inches behind the ball and look at a spot just in front of the face of the driver, That is NOT the same thing as moving the ball . I hope this will clear up the confusion and allow you to understand the idea better. 

[IONEPUTT]

On 1/15/2023 at 6:54 AM, fixyurdivot said:

It was GC Quad.  I never removed the silver dots from my driver face and their still intact (well, mostly so) 2+ years later .  Do you know whether GC Quad tends to read to the negative or positive side and by how much?  

Because I had just acquired the G410P (forum tester), I wasn't wanting to invest in any new heads.  He did see better numbers wit the KBS vs. stock Alta CB shaft, and I subsequently picked one up.  I also asked about the 9 deg and whether we should adjust that up... but he didn't think that was needed.

One of my focus areas for this season is distance gain, particularly driver.  As the shaft lengths get longer, the tendency for the distance killing fade increases.  This driver head position and focus spot are easy enough to test, and the presenters numbers were most definitely eye popping, so I'm going to give it a go.

Thank you for pointing out that this tip to place the driver head well behind the ball is easy to try. It would be nice if more readers on here would do what you plan to do , and just try it out before saying it does not work. If you try it and it works, great, if not no problem, just don't do it again. Have an open mind and be willing to try new ideas and tips from time to time and learn what works for you. I did that years ago and I currently am hitting my driver 260 yards carry with a 78 gram shaft and I'm 75 years old, fat and out of shape. Hitting up on the ball with my driver and woods off the tee seems to be working pretty well I would have to say. 

[fixyurdivot]

3 hours ago, IONEPUTT said:

I did NOT tell anyone to move the BALL 6-7 inches at set-up. What I wrote was to move the driver head back 6-7 inches behind the ball and look at a spot just in front of the face of the driver, That is NOT the same thing as moving the ball . I hope this will clear up the confusion and allow you to understand the idea better. 

This guy suggests a similar drill that focuses on a spot behind the ball.  Coming over the top is something many struggle with and there seems to be many, many techniques and swing drills aimed at correcting it.