Not Chasing Scratch...Just Chasing a Semi Decent Reliable Game...How Do I Get There

[Shlax]

4 hours ago, Golfspy_CG2 said:

They are both consistent in showing my path is out to in ranging from a low of 2* to a really bad swing of 11 or 12*.  But I seem to live in the 6 to 7 range.   So I am starting left.  I do a pretty good job of closing my face to counteract that (according to our DOI) so usually o end up with a playable fade.   However there are times where I don’t close it and I I’ll end up with the slice or close it to much and end up with a pull hook.   So yeah the dreaded 2 way kiss. 
 

Finding a way to square the face consistently I think will not solve all my problems.  But o think it would eliminate some of those misses to both sides.

From what I gathered from my own struggles as my swing parameters are very very similar to yours in terms of path, I would suggest focusing on shallowing the club.

I know I know. This seemingly all powerful keyword is all the rage among us amateurs trying to get rid of the slice, trying to hit the elusive tight draw or gaining distance but it truly is one of the key aspect that pros do better than us in terms of ball striking. Getting the face sorted is usually very easy in comparison to getting the path fixed, whether it is via grip changes, wrist set/hinge or release.

I’ve been working on hitting draws for the last year with varying success and I can say that while the left side of the hole is still a mostly estranged destination, my misses right have at least largely reduced. Reducing your overall dispersion comes with reducing the variability in outside-in path: 2° is pretty usual on Tour while 11-12° is near unplayable. If by trying to shallow your club path you end up with an O-I club path between 1 and 3° instead of 2 to 12°, this is already a massive gain. If you ever find the key to hitting consistently from the inside (which I haven’t yet), not only you’ll fix your dispersion issue but you’ll also take care of some of the distance insatisfactions that you have experienced due to increased efficiency and more optimal flight conditions.

P.S. If you ever find the key to hitting draws on demand, please let me know .

Edited July 9, 2023 by Shlax

[BobBC78]

15 hours ago, Golfspy_CG2 said:

Bob. Thanks so much for taking the time to write that.  Yeah. There are a lot of similarities in our games.  
 

Interesting you mentioned Adam Young and the Strike Plan.  I just leaned if that this week listening to the first season on Chasing Scratch.   And the good ball striking round on Wed night I mentioned.   That was literally a result of me hearing the Hammer the Nail task that morning.  It was in my thought on every shot and o hit it solid.   Then less than 12 hours later on my Thursday round.  I couldn’t even see the damn mail let alone hit it.  

I know others have mentioned the hazards to be weary of with speed training   But living in the 190 territory just doesn’t allow you to get many scoring opportunities   Evdn playing from 5700-5800 yards our senior tees  

Thabks for all your thoughts and good luck in your progress  

Good luck to you as well. A couple of thoughts on your comments:

Adam Young - I recommend that you check out his web site. You can download a free e-book called "Golf Hacks" which is loaded with good stuff so you'll get a taste of what he's about before having to spend any money. If you can't find the book on his site, send me a message with your e-mail address and I'll be happy to send it along to you (.pdf format). What I particularly like about Young's stuff is that the focus is on developing skills, good ball striking in particular, as opposed to working to change your technique. Personally, at this point in my life I have neither the time nor the patience to work through a swing change.

Selection of correct tees - I also play from senior (gold) tees at my home course, which are 5,200 yards. These were an add-on a few years ago and IMHO were not particularly well thought out, being basically 10-15 longer per hole than the forward tees (red, also not particularly well thought out). One rule of thumb is to multiply your driver total distance by 28, which for me comes to 5,460 yards. Based on your driving distance of 190, this distance is about right for you as well, so 5,700-5,800 yards is on the long side, suggesting that you will need to get good at fairway woods and or hybrids, and develop a reliable 40-60 yard wedge shot.

I'll be interested in following, and learning from, your progress.

15 hours ago, Golfspy_CG2 said:

 

 

[Golfspy_CG2]

13 hours ago, Shlax said:

From what I gathered from my own struggles as my swing parameters are very very similar to yours in terms of path, I would suggest focusing on shallowing the club.

I know I know. This seemingly all powerful keyword is all the rage among us amateurs trying to get rid of the slice, trying to hit the elusive tight draw or gaining distance but it truly is one of the key aspect that pros do better than us in terms of ball striking. Getting the face sorted is usually very easy in comparison to getting the path fixed, whether it is via grip changes, wrist set/hinge or release.

I’ve been working on hitting draws for the last year with varying success and I can say that while the left side of the hole is still a mostly estranged destination, my misses right have at least largely reduced. Reducing your overall dispersion comes with reducing the variability in outside-in path: 2° is pretty usual on Tour while 11-12° is near unplayable. If by trying to shallow your club path you end up with an O-I club path between 1 and 3° instead of 2 to 12°, this is already a massive gain. If you ever find the key to hitting consistently from the inside (which I haven’t yet), not only you’ll fix your dispersion issue but you’ll also take care of some of the distance insatisfactions that you have experienced due to increased efficiency and more optimal flight conditions.

P.S. If you ever find the key to hitting draws on demand, please let me know .

Good stuff!! So yeah if I ever find the secret sauce to a consitent draw or narrowing that path.  I’ll be sure and let you know

47 minutes ago, BobBC78 said:

 

Thansk I’ll check out his website and the book.  

[ZenGolfer]

On 7/7/2023 at 4:03 PM, Golfspy_CG2 said:

I'm using the  Chasing Scratch term, not out of grand illusion, but I just found their POD last week and have become an avid listener.  I'm still on Season 2 but working my way through to get current.  I can't imagine what they are talking about 4 years later...ha 

So anyway....

I mentioned this in a bit of a rant last nigh in one of our Staff Slack Channels.  Most regulars here know I'm not a great golfer, many of you have had the misfortune of witnessing the wreck of my swing and politely look away hoping it's not infected. 

But due to a myriad of medical reasons and a simple loft problem (Lack of  $#$$ Talent) I have always hovered between a 15 and 23 handicap.  The 15 was probably 10 years ago when I stil lhad a little bit of distance, drive maybe 245 to250, 7 iron 160 to 170.   The 23 was probably 5 years ago right as some of my medical issues started talking place.   But for the majority of the time, I have been between 17 and 19.    

Last night I saw the sobering number of 20.4 when my handicap updated after posting a 95.  The night before I had a 47 but it was on a much tougher course rating and from the white tees which were about 200 yards further than the gold tees on the same front nine I had played Wed night.   

Wednesday Night South Course Front 9  I felt was possibly the best ball striking round, granted I only hit 1 out of 9 greens, but I can't reach many of the par 4's from the whites, so I was hitting good solid iron shots that left me in good position to get up and down for no worst than bogey.  But alas my putting faltered to the tune of 19 putts.   I was kinda shocked at the end when I saw my score, as I thought I had played better than that, but two holes with triples didn't help the cause. 

Thursday AM, 18 house SouthWest course.  The front 9 is the 9 we played Wed night, but today played it from the Gold Tees, Senior League-so of course I expected to go out and rip it Up    Oh yeah, if the rounds were only played in our heads. 

So no hole by hole or shot by shot recap.  It was just a day where not one single hole did I feel I was in control.  That is despite having 5 pars and 1 birdie.  So if you're adding up at home, that means the other 12 holes I shot 24 over.   

I totally get how the life of a higher handicap is a mixture of enough pars thrown in during a round to make you think you should be pretty good at this game, to be offset by 2 to 3 holes that are totally round wreckers and you are asking yourself, what's the highest score anyone has ever gotten on this hole.  

I know all the questions and even some of the answers to this quandary..to include:

• Have you taken lessons--Yes, actually took many video lessons with a very good coach from January to April before some medical issues sidelined me for most of May and June.
• Do you practice-obviously not as much as I should---See above  Which is a shame since I spent 8 to 10 hours a day less than 50 yards from a range and putting green, and can do on course practice pretty much on demand. 
• Do you need new equipment---I think we all know the answer to that
• Where do you lose all your strokes-- I was surprised to see it's pretty much equal between par 4 and par 5's   Not because I'm trying to reach in two.  But I think the simple fact that a Par 5 requires 3 consecutive solid shots.  VS a Par 3 you can get by with 1
  •  To that end here are my scoring averages for each this year based on my hole by hole stat tracking on GHIN along with Stats from my all around game. 
    • Par 3's 3..88
    • Par 4's 5.46
    • Par 5's 6.65
  • Average putts 33.6  (This is much higher than it has been and I can go into a long explanation, maybe in another post in this thread) 
  • Putting summary
    • 2 putts or better 83%
    • 1 putts 16%
    • 3 putts or worse 17%
  • Approach shot stats
    • Greens in Regulation 16%
    • Approach Missed long 3%
    • Approach Missed Short 30%
    • Approach missed left 20%
    • Approach missed Right 22%
  • Driving Stats
    • Fairway Hit 55%
    • Missed Left 15%
    • Missed Right 17%
    • Missed short 5% (Don't Ask  )
  • Driving Distance 
    • It doesn't save those numbers but I have enough on course R10 numbers to know it's around 187 

So take this thread for what it is, I'm open to any thoughts, suggestions criticisms  and especially anyone that is going through the same thing.   

It was mostly a way of ranting and not clogging up our MOD discussions with such poor play, when most of them are shooting in the 70's! 

 

 

Hows your mental game?  It sounds to me like you are hard on yourself and maybe put far too much emphasis on how well you play and how it relates to your enjoyment of the game.

I used to be much like you, was more athetlic when I was younger and now that Im getting older and losing some distance, Ive had to learn to rely on my mental game to get me through.

[Collar]

I'll throw my two cents in: 1st forget what the score card says and take advantage of the holes you know you can handle and play conservatively on the other holes to avoid the big numbers that destroy a score. At this stage in my career, I look at par as a number between 78 and 82 and if I can avoid the doubles or worse, it's not that hard to get there. The 2nd suggestion is spend at least 4 out of every 5 minutes of practice on shots from 50 yards and in. 

[Kenny B]

On 7/7/2023 at 9:40 PM, Kenny B said:

’m not a follower of Hank Haney, but his keys to lower scores are 

1. Eliminate penalty strokes.  Sounds like they are coming from poor tee shots, poor ball contact or decision making.
2. No 2-chips or 2-bunker shots.  There’s technique involved that must be learned and requires practice; not just to learn, but also to maintain proficiency; have to keep at it.
3. No 3-putts.  Again practice lag putting and putts under 5 feet; distance control cannot be stressed enough.

Obviously, any of these are going to happen at any time, but the key is to make them very infrequent.

A little update on this weekend --

On Saturday I shot 78... made 3 birdies, but took a penalty stroke and made a double; had two chips on a hole and made bogey; and had a 3-putt bogey

On Sunday I shot 76...  made 2 birdies, and no doubles; no two-chips and no 3-putts.  

Sunday was the better score, but except for 3 shots I felt like I hit the ball better on Saturday.  On Sunday I did a lot of scrambling.  

My point is that the score is not necessarily the best indicator of how well you played.  Yes, my short game saved the score... sometimes it doesn't and quickly I'm in the low 80's.  Making even small improvements in the parts of your game where you struggle will lead to lower scores in the future.  It doesn't come all at once.  Golf is a game that requires skills to be built, and that takes a lot of work.

[KC Golf]

13 hours ago, Kenny B said:

A little update on this weekend --

On Saturday I shot 78... made 3 birdies, but took a penalty stroke and made a double; had two chips on a hole and made bogey; and had a 3-putt bogey

On Sunday I shot 76...  made 2 birdies, and no doubles; no two-chips and no 3-putts.  

Sunday was the better score, but except for 3 shots I felt like I hit the ball better on Saturday.  On Sunday I did a lot of scrambling.  

My point is that the score is not necessarily the best indicator of how well you played.  Yes, my short game saved the score... sometimes it doesn't and quickly I'm in the low 80's.  Making even small improvements in the parts of your game where you struggle will lead to lower scores in the future.  It doesn't come all at once.  Golf is a game that requires skills to be built, and that takes a lot of work.

I totally agree with you.  The score is only one aspect of your game and may be we all pay too much attention to it.  Rather than score, May be we should look at some of our overall stats and how you felt you played that day. Some days I scramble quite well, but the key stat is my GIRs are sucking, since I am taking too little club on approach shots.

[Golfspy_CG2]

On 7/9/2023 at 1:41 PM, ZenGolfer said:

Hows your mental game?  It sounds to me like you are hard on yourself and maybe put far too much emphasis on how well you play and how it relates to your enjoyment of the game.

I used to be much like you, was more athetlic when I was younger and now that Im getting older and losing some distance, Ive had to learn to rely on my mental game to get me through.

Good question on my mental game.  I'd say ok most of the time, but definitely subject to lapses.   I mean, I don't try anything stupid, I can't reach par 5's in two, so more times than  not, I'll calculate how much in I would have if I hit 7 iron.   If it's less than  150 yards, then I'll go ahead and just hit 7.    But if it's a wide open 5 and no trouble in sight I may hit hyprid of 5 iron just to try and get inside 100.  

Here's an example of where my mental game failed me. 

1st hole on Thursday, my tee shot leaked right and caught a  "Sean bounce"  Chasing Scratch term..ha. and ended up only about a foot into the trees.   I could see the ball clearly but there were lots of little branches and attached twigs surrounding it, so much that I had a hard time taking the clubhead back cleanly, I mean even just far enough to pitch out 20 yards.   After trying 2 or 3 times and seeing I couldn't guarantee getting a clean strike on it, I decided to take a lateral drop (all tree lines are played as lateral...local course rule for speed of play during the league. 

So I drop it and still don't have a perfectly clear shot at the green, but clear enough to try.    So now that I have a clean lie I take hybrid instead of an iron.   My hybrid bounced off the turf and the ball went right again, into another penalty drop area. 

Later my playing partner asked me if he could tell me something.   I said sure.   He said, I've noticed when you miss right you have a hard time getting the ball back to the middle of the fairway or green.   Meaning, once you miss right, you seem to play the entire hole up the right side, which sometimes puts you in trouble the 2nd time on hat hole.    What he was saying really was, I should have even after the drop taken a  9 iron iron and just hit back toward the middle of the fairway.  If I had, I would have been looking at maybe   70 yards or less into the green, worst case I'd probably get on in the next shot and then two putt or maybe get close enough for a 1 putt now and then.   And while a double isn't great, it's better than the triple I ended up taking. 

So yeah, in situations like that, my mental game definitely needs work.

It's one of the things I hope to get by taking a playing lesson from the pro I mentioned earlier. 

 

[Golfspy_CG2]

On 7/9/2023 at 1:41 PM, ZenGolfer said:

Hows your mental game?  It sounds to me like you are hard on yourself and maybe put far too much emphasis on how well you play and how it relates to your enjoyment of the game.

I used to be much like you, was more athetlic when I was younger and now that Im getting older and losing some distance, Ive had to learn to rely on my mental game to get me through.

I forgot to answer the other part of this.  Despite my original post.  The biggest reason I play is to enjoy spending time with friends and I actually enjoy the game.  Sure we all want to shoot a nice round.  But I dont' let a high score deflate me for weeks or days.   

It was just these two most recent rounds came within 12 hours of each other and despite the scores being similar to my index, they couldnt' have felt more different.   As mentioned the 48 was played from tees much longer than I normally play and felt like I hit the ball well, so I was pleased overall.  Sure two holes where I had triples probably cost me points and money in the standings, but I took away that I was swinging the club pretty well. 

Then Thursday played same course but 18 hoels not 9 and shorter tees.   Just never felt comfortable all day, over al tee shot or apporach.  Despite as mentioned having 5 pretty good holes with a 3 on the card. 

Crazy game

 

[KC Golf]

3 minutes ago, Golfspy_CG2 said:

I forgot to answer the other part of this.  Despite my original post.  The biggest reason I play is to enjoy spending time with friends and I actually enjoy the game.  Sure we all want to shoot a nice round.  But I dont' let a high score deflate me for weeks or days.   

It was just these two most recent rounds came within 12 hours of each other and despite the scores being similar to my index, they couldnt' have felt more different.   As mentioned the 48 was played from tees much longer than I normally play and felt like I hit the ball well, so I was pleased overall.  Sure two holes where I had triples probably cost me points and money in the standings, but I took away that I was swinging the club pretty well. 

Then Thursday played same course but 18 hoels not 9 and shorter tees.   Just never felt comfortable all day, over al tee shot or apporach.  Despite as mentioned having 5 pretty good holes with a 3 on the card. 

Crazy game

 

I fully agree golf is a crazy game.  

One thing I have noticed is that if I play a course for the first time with someone who knows the course really well, I play well since instead of thinking about my own strategy, I rely on someone else to provide me the strategy on each shot and my focus is so much better that I typically shoot a great score.  Then if I play the course again on my own, I don't play nearly as well.  I think there is a mental lesson there somewhere.  

I fully agree with you.  Golf is not a lot of fun if you aren't playing with friends who enjoy the game as well.

[jpinkardvt]

@Golfspy_CG2 I read through the first page and a half of replies and did not see anything similar to this, so if a later poster mentioned it I apologize. I am not familiar with the courses you are playing, but from my experiences coaching various levels of high school golf I have a recommendation that helped many kids in the 20-30 hdcp range make leaps.

I know that sounds very obvious, but the reason I want to bring it up stems from your original post. You mentioned striping your irons leaving yourself in position to get up and down. Why not hit a hybrid or FW in those situations? A well struck iron that is 50 yards short still misses the green by 50 yards. The benefits are multi-fold. 
 

1) You will increase your GIR, which should increase the number of pars you make. When you are playing bogey-golf that is essentially a birdie.

2) On the holes in which you miss the green  on par 4’s your proximity to the hole should be closer as you will be hitting approaches from 20-30 yards, even from the rough, instead of further away. 
 

3) With a tightened proximity to the hole you will also see your putts per round decrease. A lot of times people see 3 putts and think they should focus on their putting, when in reality they need to work on ball striking, but that’s a story for another day.

At the end of the day all I’m saying is pin high 25 yards right on a bad swing might be worse in a bubble than a well struck iron that ends up 25 yards short down the middle. The fallacy there is you are comparing a bad wood swing against your best case scenario iron swing. One of the options guarantees a GIR% to be 0.

 

[Golfspy_CG2]

21 minutes ago, jpinkardvt said:

@Golfspy_CG2 I read through the first page and a half of replies and did not see anything similar to this, so if a later poster mentioned it I apologize. I am not familiar with the courses you are playing, but from my experiences coaching various levels of high school golf I have a recommendation that helped many kids in the 20-30 hdcp range make leaps.

I know that sounds very obvious, but the reason I want to bring it up stems from your original post. You mentioned striping your irons leaving yourself in position to get up and down. Why not hit a hybrid or FW in those situations? A well struck iron that is 50 yards short still misses the green by 50 yards. The benefits are multi-fold. 
 

1) You will increase your GIR, which should increase the number of pars you make. When you are playing bogey-golf that is essentially a birdie.

2) On the holes in which you miss the green  on par 4’s your proximity to the hole should be closer as you will be hitting approaches from 20-30 yards, even from the rough, instead of further away. 
 

3) With a tightened proximity to the hole you will also see your putts per round decrease. A lot of times people see 3 putts and think they should focus on their putting, when in reality they need to work on ball striking, but that’s a story for another day.

At the end of the day all I’m saying is pin high 25 yards right on a bad swing might be worse in a bubble than a well struck iron that ends up 25 yards short down the middle. The fallacy there is you are comparing a bad wood swing against your best case scenario iron swing. One of the options guarantees a GIR% to be 0.

 

Thanks for this.  And no I don’t think it was discussed anywhere yet.  But a good question. 
 

The short answer is I do take that approach on some holes wth a hybrid or  5 or 7 wood on some holes    Where hitting it 170 to 180 yards gives me a chance to reach the green  

However our course is extremely tight with no room to miss laterally and if you do there are very tight lies and mounds that will send the ball into penalty areas
There is generally room to miss short and have a clear pitch or chip shot.  
 

So for that particular round where many of my approaches were 180 plus  I took the “layup” option as opposed to knowing I wouldn’t get the ge with a FW anyway and the cost of missing it was too great 

 I’m sure your next question is why am I playing tees that I can’t even reach the green with a FW.   You may have not gotten that far either where I explained that’s just one night a week in a 9 hole league where everyone plays the whites    I play in that league strictly to see a couple friends I wouldn’t see otherwise.
 

 

 

 

 

[jpinkardvt]

39 minutes ago, Golfspy_CG2 said:

Thanks for this.  And no I don’t think it was discussed anywhere yet.  But a good question. 
 

The short answer is I do take that approach on some holes wth a hybrid or  5 or 7 wood on some holes    Where hitting it 170 to 180 yards gives me a chance to reach the green  

However our course is extremely tight with no room to miss laterally and if you do there are very tight lies and mounds that will send the ball into penalty areas
There is generally room to miss short and have a clear pitch or chip shot.  
 

So for that particular round where many of my approaches were 180 plus  I took the “layup” option as opposed to knowing I wouldn’t get the ge with a FW anyway and the cost of missing it was too great 

 I’m sure your next question is why am I playing tees that I can’t even reach the green with a FW.   You may have not gotten that far either where I explained that’s just one night a week in a 9 hole league where everyone plays the whites    I play in that league strictly to see a couple friends I wouldn’t see otherwise.
 

 

 

 

 

That makes sense, penalty areas bring in a whole new variable. Good luck on your journey!

[mardukes]

• Play or practice every day
• Get to a healthy weight (how about walking 9 holes every day?)
• Strengthen your core.
• Finally, realize that it takes a level of athleticism and eye-hand coordination that establishes a best-level for each of us.

[Donn lost in San Diego]

I'll take a stab:

1.  lesson or 2 in person, not video.

2.  Try, it takes a lot of practice, to putt cross-handed, and, look at the path or hole on putts longer than about 7 or 8 feet.  Get a face balanced putter.  Place your front hand lightly, gently, below the rear hand, wrapped around the shaft in a normal grip, with the index finger running down the front of the shaft.

 

It takes time.  And on the putts looking at the hole, you run the risk of grounding the club before hitting the ball.  Use a fat grip, it minimizes the accidental twisting of the shaft.  The index finger on the shaft provides feedback that you are not twisting the shaft.

 

I have my own physical issues, 8 orthopedic surgeries.  Pretty severe spinal curve, frequent issues short of surgery.  Many interruptions, and worst of all, too stubborn to take lessons until 62 years old.  But I did get fitted clubs and picked up lots of inexpensive used clubs to test out different ideas.  Now, Ping I 500 irons, a PXG driver, Mizuno wedges.  Love them.  Finally going to have time if my thumbs hold up to score better.

 

Wish you the best

[Joey_D_Golf]

I think everyone is different and has their up and downs (pun intended) in their game. 
 

I would break up areas of the game and then focus on the specific area that needs the most improvement or could be the easiest. 
 

For me I wanted to improve my drives so I worked on improving my greens in regulation. Now I’m working on lowering my number of putts per round.

It just depends on where your level is at, what your interested in improving and then my best piece of advice is getting out and hitting the range with an idea of focus in mind.

[Golfspy_CG2]

13 hours ago, Donn lost in San Diego said:

I'll take a stab:

1.  lesson or 2 in person, not video.

2.  Try, it takes a lot of practice, to putt cross-handed, and, look at the path or hole on putts longer than about 7 or 8 feet.  Get a face balanced putter.  Place your front hand lightly, gently, below the rear hand, wrapped around the shaft in a normal grip, with the index finger running down the front of the shaft.

 

It takes time.  And on the putts looking at the hole, you run the risk of grounding the club before hitting the ball.  Use a fat grip, it minimizes the accidental twisting of the shaft.  The index finger on the shaft provides feedback that you are not twisting the shaft.

 

I have my own physical issues, 8 orthopedic surgeries.  Pretty severe spinal curve, frequent issues short of surgery.  Many interruptions, and worst of all, too stubborn to take lessons until 62 years old.  But I did get fitted clubs and picked up lots of inexpensive used clubs to test out different ideas.  Now, Ping I 500 irons, a PXG driver, Mizuno wedges.  Love them.  Finally going to have time if my thumbs hold up to score better.

 

Wish you the best

Thanks for the thoughts.   I did putt cross handed several years ago before taking a putting lesson and getting fit for a putter, since then I've gone back to standard grip and a slight toe hang, which is what I was fit for by the tour reps at PING HQ a couple years ago.  At the time my putting handicap was a +2, it remained very good until I had cataract surgery last fall.  

I haven't written a lot about that in this tread, as I may make it a separate thread alone on peoples experiences pre and post cataract surgery.   But I think just taking the time to dedicate getting back to my original form in putting will eventually work.   Since it was always my strength, I have probably gotten slack in the work I put in on it this year.   

I agree 100% with the larger grip, I putted with a friends new Scotty on the green the other day, and could barely stand to hold the stock size grip. 

[Donn lost in San Diego]

Here's 3 other ideas.  You need more length, try a bunch of driving irons til u find one you like.  I have a Mizuno MP18 MMC Fli HI 3 iron.  I use it a lot.  I don't expect the length of a full speed swing a la Nicklaus or Watson hitting a 2 or 3 iron, but it goes straight and low.  Driving irons are easier to hit than a regular iron, the goal of the design is less spinnable but less dispersion.  I live where I get to test lots of new and used equip.

 

See if you can find a physical therapist who is a Titleist TPI certified.  They can identify which muscles or parts of the swing you can improve, one at a time.  A regular lesson, which I also recommended, might not focus one step at a time on improving your mobility.  I have some for hip mobility work, and some for shoulder rotation, and for core.  Paloff press is rarely talked about, it seems too easy, but it works for my curved torso.

 

I had cataract surgery 6 yearsago, worked well, but now I have a little bit of scar tissue, the eye is 25/20, not 20/20.  I have 2 pair of Rx glasses for optimized for outdoor, one regular and one brown/yellowish sunglasses.  Tell your optician you want glasses optimized for golf, not indoor, not reading.  G......luck

[cksurfdude]

On 7/8/2023 at 8:44 PM, Kenny B said:

I'm also watching the US Women's Open.  It's interesting that they seem to be missing more fairways than usual because they aren't as wide as the typical LPGA event where they swing all out and still hit fairways.  

I can tell you from experience that you will gain distance without increasing your swing speed when you make better contact.  Fixing club path and face control leads to a more efficient strike and more distance.  I'm 76 and I am hitting the ball consistently further than I did 10 years ago, and it's not all because of better technology!!  I made the decision to improve my swing because I could see that distance was going to continue to decline as I got older.  I just wanted to maintain, but I'm still seeing gains.  

A good instructor will be able to identify the main reason for poor ball striking.  Whatever it is, work on it until you eliminate it.  There will be other reasons, but you have to fix the main one before you can hope to fix the others.  Don't try to fix multiple problems at the same time!!  

I've enjoyed my time with Monte and he has helped me considerably.  @cksurfdude is at Monte's clinic in NJ this weekend.  As a top level instructor, his prices are reasonable, and his videos are gold and not expensive.  I watch them frequently.  I particularly like the Efficient Swing, No Turn Cast, and Power Shift.  He also posts excerpts from his videos on Instagram; it's the only social media I follow... except the MGS Forum of course!!  

Yep yep yep. EVERYTHING that smart guy said!!

So...

Love the original post! But .. of course .. I'm not gonna give swing advice - I'm not a teaching pro and I don't play one on TV - but as an estimated 20 hcp peering through a crack in the door at getting into the teens, I'll share some of my thoughts and what's working for me (in no specific priority order)....

* Swing technique vs speed training - hitting the ball "better" will absolutely yield better results vs trying to hit it "harder"!

* Smash Factor (eg tee shots) - call it shot "efficiency" maybe but imagine you're at, say, 1.3 now and can make more centered contact more often and get that to, say, 1.4 or 1.4+ .. that gives you a nice jump in ball speed!

* Short game - no question this is critical and I 100% agree with a previous poster who said figure out ONE, maybe two, short game shots that you can execute well almost all the time in almost every short game situation!

* Short game 2 - do NOT be reliant on your SW or LW. Stats prove better players use several different clubs for short game ask around the greens.

* Short game 3 - learn the 3W (not hybrid) putt. Can't really explain its technique here but from a tight lie in front of the green it's crazy how effective it can be!

* Bunkers - f@#% 'em. Why are they even on a golf course?

* Putting - distance control on the first putt is #1. Everything else is details that may, or may not, help you score better!

* More club into greens - absolutely; again .. swing better not harder!

* Uneven lies - learn to play all the uneven lies so you get more comfortable when you have one on the course. Especially applicable to intended approach shots from less than perfect lies!

* Stinger shot - no not a Tiger stinger off the tee to take an unbeatable lead at The Open but a reliable escape from jail and get back into play rescue shot. I could learn it, so literally anyone could, and it's helped me a bunch of times!

* Monte clinic - maybe a separate discussion but I believe he has genuinely helped me; I've gained a ton of Golf IQ from him and this latest clinic def boosted my on-course playing confidence!

* Physical aspect - I've got all kinds of problems but regular stretching, yoga and aerobics are totally keeping me keep moving .. and at a level equivalent to a younger than 67 yo dude. Does not have to be golf specific training .. just do it!

* Mental game - have read about it, have attended a clinic about (David Mackenzie, Golf State of Mind) and still don't understand it. Yet? But I do know one of the top round killers is negative self-talk. I'd also refer you to Jon Sherman's "Four Foundations" and the first section on "Expectations Management".

One shot at a time. The most important shot is the next shot. Golf is hard .. even the pros miss shots!

(etc etc etc)

Rory said something like... "Don't let your golf influence your attitude. Let your attitude influence your golf."

[Golfspy_CG2]

Thanks @cksurfdude lots of good thoughts there many I’m already implementing.  But never hurts to have them reinforced. 
 

You should start a thread on your Monte Clinic if you haven’t already.   If you actually had the patience to read all my posts in this thread you probably saw that I mentioned Hm. Would love to hear more detail on how the weekend went. 

[KC Golf]

You are getting some great suggestions.  I am reading them and I think I will be stealing some of those awesome ideas.

Hope that's okay with you!

[cksurfdude]

45 minutes ago, Golfspy_CG2 said:

Thanks @cksurfdude lots of good thoughts there many I’m already implementing.  But never hurts to have them reinforced. 
 

You should start a thread on your Monte Clinic if you haven’t already.   If you actually had the patience to read all my posts in this thread you probably saw that I mentioned Hm. Would love to hear more detail on how the weekend went. 

No prob, if even one thing helps even a little then I'm very happy!

And yeah think I will go into more about the Monte clinic .. enough people on here seem interested .. may revive an older thread from 2020.

Briefly, this was my third clinic with him and each year I've learned more. Let's even say... I'm getting better at learning -how- to learn about golf!

[cksurfdude]

K now I'm really into this topic!

So here's a few more things I'm working on that popped into my head....

* Pre-Shot Routine - if you don't have one, work on one. There's no specific routine that's right for everyone .. and it does not have to be the same for each part of the game, eg driving vs putting .. but find one that's right for you and prepares you for the shot at hand and apply it EACH AND EVERY SHOT!

* Setup - this is really the only thing that's within our control on the golf course .. you can't control the weather, the wind, the way other people act, exactly where the ball lands nor exactly how it's gonna bounce and roll out, etc .. but you can control how you set up to the ball on each shot!

* Practice vs Scoring rounds - for me pretty much every round is a practice round, in that I'm still learning what shots I can vs what shots I should *not* try on the course if I were trying to play for a score!

* Course Management - best line I've heard is "confident stroke on a conservative line" .. ie pick a target and the shot to get there that you're confident you can execute well 8 or 9 times or of 10 .. and be committed to that shot!

* Course Management 2 - hit away from trouble; embrace the layup and play for bogey instead of risking double or worse!

* Practice - I know your golf time may be limited but try to make that time more effective; eg have a practice plan before you get to the range .. "I'm working on ___ today!"

* Practice 2 - (a) hit one club to different distance targets; (b) hit different clubs to the same distance target!

* Practice 3 - do Practice 2 with each wedge in your bag, and combine that with alternating trajectories with a given wedge to one target!

* Swing Thoughts - ok during practice rounds but not scoring rounds. If you must .. have ONE "key" to help you make better contact with the ball!

-- example/Practice: "alright let's start the takeaway with 27 degrees of lead knee flex followed by 13 degrees of trail elbow external rotation while I'm rotating my hips at.." ..blah blah blah....

-- example/Scoring: on the tee -> "smash the center of the driver face onto the back of the ball!"

[Golfspy_CG2]

13 hours ago, cksurfdude said:

K now I'm really into this topic!

So here's a few more things I'm working on that popped into my head....

* Pre-Shot Routine - if you don't have one, work on one. There's no specific routine that's right for everyone .. and it does not have to be the same for each part of the game, eg driving vs putting .. but find one that's right for you and prepares you for the shot at hand and apply it EACH AND EVERY SHOT!

* Setup - this is really the only thing that's within our control on the golf course .. you can't control the weather, the wind, the way other people act, exactly where the ball lands nor exactly how it's gonna bounce and roll out, etc .. but you can control how you set up to the ball on each shot!

* Practice vs Scoring rounds - for me pretty much every round is a practice round, in that I'm still learning what shots I can vs what shots I should *not* try on the course if I were trying to play for a score!

* Course Management - best line I've heard is "confident stroke on a conservative line" .. ie pick a target and the shot to get there that you're confident you can execute well 8 or 9 times or of 10 .. and be committed to that shot!

* Course Management 2 - hit away from trouble; embrace the layup and play for bogey instead of double or worse!

* Practice - I know your golf time may be limited but try to make that time more effective; eg have a practice plan before you get to the range .. "I'm working on ___ today!"

* Practice 2 - (a) hit one club to different distance targets; (b) hit different clubs to the same distance target!

* Practice 3 - do Practice 2 with each wedge in your bag, and combine that with alternating trajectories with a given wedge to one target!

* Swing Thoughts - ok during practice rounds but not scoring rounds. If you must .. have ONE "key" to help you make better contact with the ball!

-- example/Practice: "alright let's start the takeaway with 27 degrees of lead knee flex followed by 13 degrees of trail elbow external rotation while I'm rotating my hips at.." ..blah blah blah....

-- example/Scoring: on the tee -> "smash the center of the driver face onto the back of the ball!"

Good stuff there!

The pre shot routine is one that I think I've gotten better on.   I didn't use to take a full speed or even full practice swing on the tee, just kind of a slow motion wimpy type half swing.   During a lesson, an instructor asked me why I was rehearsing to hit it slow.  I said, that's not how I'm going to swing...and I didn't even need to finish to know what he was saying.   Now, I'm not saying I've started doing the Padriq Harrington preshot routine, with 3 full bore full speed swings, but I do take a pretty normal speed one now.

While watching the Women's US Open, this past weekend, a buddy texted me.  "I think you should do Nasa Hataoka's  pre shot jumping routine..  I laughed and replied to him that I just told my fiancé I was going to start doing that

 

14 hours ago, KC Golf said:

You are getting some great suggestions.  I am reading them and I think I will be stealing some of those awesome ideas.

Hope that's okay with you!

Yep, there really has been some good stuff.   By all means steal away.  

[BobBC78]

@Golfspy_CG2 - Agree completely with @KC Golf, many things to think about and put into practice on this thread! Lot's of us will be "stealing" these ideas. 

[ccostel18]

Stop looking at the pin. Aim for the centers of greens and make your 2 putts. Misses will tend to keep the putter in your hand rather than short sided chips, or days on the beach. 

[Matty 3-Putts]

I'm thinking a little less technical since it seems like most other responses here have a much better grasp on stat improvement than I'd be able to provide, but I play with several friends at similar skill levels and here's some things I've picked up that can help.

1. Be honest to yourself about your game where it is today. While it's easy to reminisce about the thoughts of hitting the ball further, that's just not realistic for some. If you just don't have the long game, that's okay, but you need to reinforce other parts of your game to play around that. And yes, like others said, if you can't hit it long, you need a heck of a short game to make up for it. A lot of your practice needs to be focused on this area.
2. Going back to being honest about your game, short hitters often take too little club into the green. Know your real on-course yardages, and don't feel like you're hurting your pride by taking a wood or hybrid in from what you think should be an iron. Your club makeup may also be contributing. I can't imagine you have a large gapping between all your clubs and I'm seeing you have 5 clubs of PW-down. Simplify your club selection and you'll have less nuance to master with that overlapping of yardages. Also, I see little value in laying up to a specific yardage if you can't reach the GIR. Get that ball as close to the hole as possible as early as possible. Dispersion goes down with shorter distance no matter what, even if your short game isn't great.
3. Solid ball contact is always key, regardless of what club you're hitting. Need to eliminate wasted shots like chunks, blades, tops. Even if you dont hit a great shot, advancing the ball towards the hole as far as possible on every swing will keep the big numbers down. (speaking to my buddy who often has to play 3x3 wood shots from the middle of a fairway...)
4. Big numbers for me come when I follow up bad shots with another bad shot. I can always make bogey with 1 bad shot on a hole, but 2 in a row puts you into double/triple territory. If you're out of position, get the ball back to a playable position and keep it there. The amount of birdies you make doesn't lower your score nearly as much as turning triples into doubles and doubles into bogeys.
5. Learn how to miss. Pick a target line on each swing knowing where the danger is that can bring up big numbers. Playing in the rough isn't great, but it is always better than a bunker or hazard. If I'm struggling off the tee, I may pick the edge of fairway as my target line opposite of the trouble so that if my big miss comes I'm still out of trouble, but a double-cross is playable.
6. Find yourself a "safety shot" off the tee. Even if you're losing 15-20 yards to get it, playing short out of the fairway is always better than a lost ball. 

There's a lot there that I'm sure you can't fix overnight, but even if you successfully employ each of these items just once a round you can be down close to your target score.

 

[Goober]

I think (imho) a great swing thought or feel should apply to all clubs in the bag. Not having one for the driver , one for the irons , one for chipping and pitching etc. keep it universal and simple. Then I guess the next question would be how many swing thoughts. For me, I can really only handle 2 during the round of play. For me I think replant lead foot before coming down in transition. Than upper spiral. That lead foot planting first helps me not hit early. And the upper spiral delays my hitting the ball even later than usual. Just my thoughts 

[Fred Mitchell]

On 7/11/2023 at 12:40 PM, Donn lost in San Diego said:

Here's 3 other ideas.  You need more length, try a bunch of driving irons til u find one you like.  I have a Mizuno MP18 MMC Fli HI 3 iron.  I use it a lot.  I don't expect the length of a full speed swing a la Nicklaus or Watson hitting a 2 or 3 iron, but it goes straight and low.  Driving irons are easier to hit than a regular iron, the goal of the design is less spinnable but less dispersion.  I live where I get to test lots of new and used equip.

 

See if you can find a physical therapist who is a Titleist TPI certified.  They can identify which muscles or parts of the swing you can improve, one at a time.  A regular lesson, which I also recommended, might not focus one step at a time on improving your mobility.  I have some for hip mobility work, and some for shoulder rotation, and for core.  Paloff press is rarely talked about, it seems too easy, but it works for my curved torso.

 

I had cataract surgery 6 yearsago, worked well, but now I have a little bit of scar tissue, the eye is 25/20, not 20/20.  I have 2 pair of Rx glasses for optimized for outdoor, one regular and one brown/yellowish sunglasses.  Tell your optician you want glasses optimized for golf, not indoor, not reading.  G......luck

On the glasses, maybe just some Oakley golf prizm sunglasses, I can absolutely see the ball better with them but I can also see the undulations on the green better also, heck find someone on the local Facebook golf forum and seif they will meet you at a course with a good practice green and try before you buy. If he qualifies he can sign up for the Military/Veteran/first responder program through ID.me and get a HEFTY discount, I gave a little over 70 bucks for my pair. 

[Fred Mitchell]

20 hours ago, Matty 3-Putts said:

I'm thinking a little less technical since it seems like most other responses here have a much better grasp on stat improvement than I'd be able to provide, but I play with several friends at similar skill levels and here's some things I've picked up that can help.

1. Be honest to yourself about your game where it is today. While it's easy to reminisce about the thoughts of hitting the ball further, that's just not realistic for some. If you just don't have the long game, that's okay, but you need to reinforce other parts of your game to play around that. And yes, like others said, if you can't hit it long, you need a heck of a short game to make up for it. A lot of your practice needs to be focused on this area.
2. Going back to being honest about your game, short hitters often take too little club into the green. Know your real on-course yardages, and don't feel like you're hurting your pride by taking a wood or hybrid in from what you think should be an iron. Your club makeup may also be contributing. I can't imagine you have a large gapping between all your clubs and I'm seeing you have 5 clubs of PW-down. Simplify your club selection and you'll have less nuance to master with that overlapping of yardages. Also, I see little value in laying up to a specific yardage if you can't reach the GIR. Get that ball as close to the hole as possible as early as possible. Dispersion goes down with shorter distance no matter what, even if your short game isn't great.
3. Solid ball contact is always key, regardless of what club you're hitting. Need to eliminate wasted shots like chunks, blades, tops. Even if you dont hit a great shot, advancing the ball towards the hole as far as possible on every swing will keep the big numbers down. (speaking to my buddy who often has to play 3x3 wood shots from the middle of a fairway...)
4. Big numbers for me come when I follow up bad shots with another bad shot. I can always make bogey with 1 bad shot on a hole, but 2 in a row puts you into double/triple territory. If you're out of position, get the ball back to a playable position and keep it there. The amount of birdies you make doesn't lower your score nearly as much as turning triples into doubles and doubles into bogeys.
5. Learn how to miss. Pick a target line on each swing knowing where the danger is that can bring up big numbers. Playing in the rough isn't great, but it is always better than a bunker or hazard. If I'm struggling off the tee, I may pick the edge of fairway as my target line opposite of the trouble so that if my big miss comes I'm still out of trouble, but a double-cross is playable.
6. Find yourself a "safety shot" off the tee. Even if you're losing 15-20 yards to get it, playing short out of the fairway is always better than a lost ball. 

There's a lot there that I'm sure you can't fix overnight, but even if you successfully employ each of these items just once a round you can be down close to your target score.

 

Number 2 , ding ding ding winner. I realized 1 day that I came up short of the green 9/10 of the time instead of long even when I could have clubbed up 1 club and reached the green easily. Lets say half of those were non solid strikes due to bad strikes, bad lies , mud on ball, etc. that leaves a lot more balls on  the green or at least green high. if I had chosen the proper club.