Planned 2030 Golf Ball Rollback

[RickyBobby_PR]

1 hour ago, Another Steve said:

Doesn't really matter why the USGA feels the need to make the change. It’s their prerogative to make any changes they see fit.

It is but as the supposed stewards of the game they should be looking at ways to not make it harder for the amateur golfer. Their one good decision was to update the rules to make some easier to understand and to help pace of play.

1 hour ago, Another Steve said:

To answer your question - IMHO the USGA defines integrity of the game as - the game being played in accordance with the current rules, with the the equipment proscribed by those rules, in the manner that those who make the rules (the USGA) have determined the game is supposed to be played. (That last part is the real point of contention as it is Not necessarily how (some of ?) the masses want to play the game).

So if all the pros are doing this then what is the problem that the distance they hit is creating?

Heres what the ruling bodies and many pro rollbacks haven’t done and that define a problem statement. Their statement is average distance has been increasing for 20,30,40,50 years and if we don’t do something it will continue.

so what’s the actual issue and what does the rollback fix.

[RickyBobby_PR]

25 minutes ago, Franc38 said:

So far I adhere to the rules coming from the join efforts of them and the RandA... because they're somewhat sensible, and because of the RandA historical relevance, but I can see many other national federations, which have the same 'rank' as the USGA say they won't follow anymore (for example, the Federation Française de Golf, if it wants to keep me as a paying member...)

Everyone playing under the rules of golf adhere to that. The R&A and the USGA make decisions together. 
 

Would the Federation Française de Golf create their own rules and handicap system if they broke away from the 2 ruling bodies 

[Franc38]

33 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Would the Federation Française de Golf create their own rules and handicap system if they broke away from the 2 ruling bodies 

We had the EGU handicap system until 2 years ago... quite different from the USGA or R&A ways. Now we've joined the WHS... with some adaptation (like everything has got to come from federally sanctioned stroke play competitions, and some other stuff).

Rules are sort of public domain to a point, I don't see why they wouldn't if they wanted to. Well, likely not just the French but I could see a EGU ruling body thing appear, if the uproar is big enough.

[Another Steve]

The problem that I see is if the manufacturers and Pros/tours/orgs do not recognize the change then it becomes a defacto coup against the USGA and the R&A…. If the USGA doesn’t back down, what then? Does a third party step in and “usurp control” over the game with the blessings of the mfg’s and the pros? Not that either would ask joe 6-pack how he felt. Could some deep pockets step in, “throw some R&D money at the mfg’s”  having already bought a lot of the pros, and complete their purchase of the control of the game? 

[GregGarner]

41 minutes ago, Another Steve said:

The problem that I see is if the manufacturers and Pros/tours/orgs do not recognize the change then it becomes a defacto coup against the USGA and the R&A…. If the USGA doesn’t back down, what then? Does a third party step in and “usurp control” over the game with the blessings of the mfg’s and the pros? Not that either would ask joe 6-pack how he felt. Could some deep pockets step in, “throw some R&D money at the mfg’s”  having already bought a lot of the pros, and complete their purchase of the control of the game? 

Quite the SAGA you're proposing... (Saudi Arabia Golf Association??)

[GolfSpy_APH]

12 hours ago, chisag said:

... As the linebacker in high school that hit me too many times when wearing my yellow jersey said in my yearbook "I had a great time knocking you down. It have been fun. But fun have to come to a end." I get the feeling more than a few posting here would complain about winning a dozen ProV1's because they are the wrong color.   

... I am reading the same comments over and over and over and over again. After 106 pages I doubt anyone has changed their minds about this issue. Nobody wants a roll back for Ams. Nobody. Yet some of us realize if it happens we will adjust and life goes on. Or ignore the new rule and play whatever ball they choose. Fwiw I have been playing a "rolled back ball" for over a year now and I can honesty say it has improved my game. 





 

I bowed out of the core discussion a while ago. I have my own thoughts and views, however still feel that it is truly way too early. Lots can change, lots can be adapted and even more can be developed over the next while before this actually happens. Plus I just can't be bothered to get worked up over this. Golf is too much fun and the enjoyment of playing different courses, with different people is the main reason why I golf. The challenge will always be there regardless of the ball I am using. 

[Bob Pegram]

13 hours ago, storm319 said:

Moving the goal post doesn’t effect the stats he shared (an attempt from the 50 yard line to a front goal post and an attempt from the 40 to a back goal post are both 50 yards in length). Ultimately the goal post move had the following effects 1) less field goal attempts from certain parts of the field (granted this has not held up long term) 2) reduction in potential injury from players running into the goals posts 3) opened up red zone passing as the goal post was no longer an obstacle.

The parallel we have in golf is that adding distance is only a short term solution that ultimately entices players to attempt to hit it farther (just as what we have seen with longer field goal attempts in recent years in the NFL). Ultimately adding length is not a long term solution to the perceived problem. 

I agree that the most important reason for moving the goal posts was to reduce the number of severe (brain and other) injuries that were taking place. To some degree this ball change is like the kid who doesn't like how the game is progressing and so takes his ball and goes home. It is somewhat juvenile. If the limits had been put on BEFORE the increased distances we now see, it would be better, but, at this point, it would penalize equipment companies for their continuing advancing club engineering improvements and ball construction improvements. It is a stick in the eye.

[Bob Pegram]

13 hours ago, funkyjudge said:

John Daly was driving it 317 yards in the early 2000s and courses were fine but now Rory driving it 319 or 320 threatens the integrity of the game?

And in the 1990s/early 2000s, on what is now the Korn Ferry Tour, Victor Schwamkrug was AVERAGING 339 yards with his driver.  I also seem to recall Hank Kuehne averaging more than 325 yards off the tee in his brief stint on the PGA Tour.

 

As many others have said, driving the ball farther demands more accuracy which can easily be countered with narrower fairways or longer rough, or both. This ball change is unnecessary as long as a little greenskeeper creativity or more punitive design takes place.

[RickyBobby_PR]

3 hours ago, Bob Pegram said:

As many others have said, driving the ball farther demands more accuracy which can easily be countered with narrower fairways or longer rough, or both. This ball change is unnecessary as long as a little greenskeeper creativity or more punitive design takes place.

True but the PGA tour doesn’t want that. They could easily grow the rough in a bit, not mow the fairways as tight or water them more, but they have the course setup the way they want to promote more distance and more birdies. This is what sells viewership.

The ball rollback is the ruling bodies dictating to the tours how golf should be played. They can’t mandate golfers stop working out, stop speed training, not to use a launch monitor. They can’t dictate course setup so they have to find a way to enforce their desired way golf should be played onto the professionals. They couldn’t get them to bifurcate so they reverted to their original plans to enforce it on everyone.

It comes down to whether people like the way the pros play golf or not. If they don’t then there is a distance problem and it needs to be fixed. 

[Big moose]

I will be 69 in March, i am not going to worry about something that might happen 7 years from now. Who knows I might not even be here.  I like playing golf because of the people I play with. When I was younger all I worried about was how far I could hit the ball to impress everyone, when I got older I realized keeping it in play was more important. 100 yards and in is where you separate the golfers from the people who just like to play golf and that's never going to change. At my age I don't care about this issue. 

[RickyBobby_PR]

19 minutes ago, Big moose said:

I will be 69 in March, i am not going to worry about something that might happen 7 years from now. Who knows I might not even be here.  I like playing golf because of the people I play with. When I was younger all I worried about was how far I could hit the ball to impress everyone, when I got older I realized keeping it in play was more important. 100 yards and in is where you separate the golfers from the people who just like to play golf and that's never going to change. At my age I don't care about this issue. 

But those who are younger and have lots of golf to play even at the recreational level will be affected. It should be about leaving the game in a better place for those yet to play and for those who will be playing for a long time to come.

 

[badge56]

Getting older and shorter. Why in the world would I change balls so that I hit it even less far?  Stupid. Make the pros use them new balls and leave the 99.9% of us alone. They seam to live on another planet.

[DaveP043]

11 hours ago, Another Steve said:

The problem that I see is if the manufacturers and Pros/tours/orgs do not recognize the change then it becomes a defacto coup against the USGA and the R&A…. If the USGA doesn’t back down, what then? Does a third party step in and “usurp control” over the game with the blessings of the mfg’s and the pros? Not that either would ask joe 6-pack how he felt. Could some deep pockets step in, “throw some R&D money at the mfg’s”  having already bought a lot of the pros, and complete their purchase of the control of the game? 

I think its really unlikely that the manufacturers and/or tours will choose to depart from the USGA/R&A.  What's their motivation, do they make more money if they do?  Pro golf will look virtually the same, why would they choose to make their own rules, and take the heat from every member who gets an "unfair" penalty?  Manufacturers will sell the same number of balls, they'll just have a one-time expense to adapt to the new test method.  I have to believe that they've already started looking at adapting to the new test method so they'll be ready to submit conforming balls in 4 years.  Sure, their PR flacks are telling us that they HATE the reduction, they don't want to be the bad guys in the eyes of the public (i.e their customers), but it really won't impact them significantly.  

Someone mentioned the possibility of the Saudis setting up and running their own "golfing authority".  To me that's the only possibility, because the Saudis don't need to make any money.  They could choose to set up their own golf ball brand.  Would their authority get followers, would enough people buy balls made with "blood money" to make it significant?  I don't know, but I'll be surprised if it happens.

 

[storm319]

21 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

I’m still trying to figure out what the integrity of the game means.

The goal of the game is to score as low as possible when playing and in competitive golf it’s to be the lowest when the competition ends. Not sure how it affects that. Especially when you consider pga tour professionals have a +5 or better handicap, they are going to make a bunch of birdies over the course of 4 rounds and not going to make many big numbers 

Integrity = play the game in a specific way

[Subdiver1]

EMERGENCY! EMERGENCY! DANGER WILL ROBBINS! DANGER!

Upon further review of the data golf MOST DEFINITELY has a distance problem.  Based on this breaking data this can definitely NOT be a result of course conditions, professional ability or fitness development among the elite of the sport!  It HAS TO BE "the ball" as demonsrated by compilation of extensive 2024 season performance data.  This new ball that they are all using at Kapalua this week, in the 2024 season, is providing a HUGE advantage over 2023 ball technology.  As you can see from the graphic (source: Golf Channel, 6 Jan 24) players gained OVER 93 YARDS in just 1 month with this new 2024 ball technology. Manufacturers and technology are OUT OF CONTROL. This must stop today!  At this rate we will run out of space on earth to make golf courses long enough to contain even the shortest players and will need to move golf to Venus where the gravity, the only viable solution, will help off set any future potential advances in ball design and technology.

To ensure the average recreational golfer will not be exposed to this new technology, allowing them to immediately  overpower their local muni courses rendering these venues obsolete within the month, and to prevent the proliferation of these new 2024 "tour grade" balls, USGA and R&A representatives will replace the greeters and cashiers at all hardball retailers such as Rick's Sports, Valuemart, Playitoveragain Sports and will review all orders prior to shipment from.such online retailers as Karls Golfland, Breakfastballs.com, Rick's, Valmart, and of course CPG.  Further rules to be immediately presently forthwith announced soon to take effect imminently heretofor to offset this heretical advancement in ball technology.

(Please enjoy the above with you morning coffee or evening beverage of your choice and a grain of salt.  The preceding has been a lame effort at satire with a healthy dose of sarcasm. If one is unfamiliar with sarcasm, and online search for the terms "sarcasm" or "satire" should be conducted to quell the desire to engage in long winded diatribe over the existence of a "2024 ball" or a one month average distance increase of 100 +/- yards. The intent of the long-winded entry was to elicit a chuckle or full bellied laugh over the absurd notion that there is "distance problem" in golf, especially among the amatuer and recreational sects.)

[skraeling]

13 minutes ago, Subdiver1 said:

EMERGENCY! EMERGENCY! DANGER WILL ROBBINS! DANGER!

Upon further review of the data golf MOST DEFINITELY has a distance problem.  Based on this breaking data this can definitely NOT be a result of course conditions, professional ability or fitness development among the elite of the sport!  It HAS TO BE "the ball" as demonsrated by compilation of extensive 2024 season performance data.  This new ball that they are all using at Kapalua this week, in the 2024 season, is providing a HUGE advantage over 2023 ball technology.  As you can see from the graphic (source: Golf Channel, 6 Jan 24) players gained OVER 93 YARDS in just 1 month with this new 2024 ball technology. Manufacturers and technology are OUT OF CONTROL. This must stop today!  At this rate we will run out of space on earth to make golf courses long enough to contain even the shortest players and will need to move golf to Venus where the gravity, the only viable solution, will help off set any future potential advances in ball design and technology.

To ensure the average recreational golfer will not be exposed to this new technology, allowing them to immediately  overpower their local muni courses rendering these venues obsolete within the month, and to prevent the proliferation of these new 2024 "tour grade" balls, USGA and R&A representatives will replace the greeters and cashiers at all hardball retailers such as Rick's Sports, Valuemart, Playitoveragain Sports and will review all orders prior to shipment from.such online retailers as Karls Golfland, Breakfastballs.com, Rick's, Valmart, and of course CPG.  Further rules to be immediately presently forthwith announced soon to take effect imminently heretofor to offset this heretical advancement in ball technology.

(Please enjoy the above with you morning coffee or evening beverage of your choice and a grain of salt.  The preceding has been a lame effort at satire with a healthy dose of sarcasm. If one is unfamiliar with sarcasm, and online search for the terms "sarcasm" or "satire" should be conducted to quell the desire to engage in long winded diatribe over the existence of a "2024 ball" or a one month average distance increase of 100 +/- yards. The intent of the long-winded entry was to elicit a chuckle or full bellied laugh over the absurd notion that there is "distance problem" in golf, especially among the amatuer and recreational sects.)

I for one am all for increasing the gravitational constant of earth.  It’s really the only way for everyone to have true parity.

has anyone seen Dr.Evil lately?  We need to get him on this gravity increasing job asap.

[Subdiver1]

17 minutes ago, skraeling said:

32 minutes ago, Subdiver1 said:

Expand  

I for one am all for increasing the gravitational constant of earth.  It’s really the only way for everyone to have true parity.

My gravitational constant has increased over the last year. My resolution is to take positive action to reverse that effect on my knees and back

[William P]

5 minutes ago, Subdiver1 said:

My gravitational constant has increased over the last year. My resolution is to take positive action to reverse that effect on my knees and back

I resemble that remark!

[skraeling]

12 minutes ago, Subdiver1 said:

My gravitational constant has increased over the last year. My resolution is to take positive action to reverse that effect on my knees and back

 

6 minutes ago, William P said:

I resemble that remark!

[Beakbryce]

On 12/24/2023 at 2:36 PM, GolfSpy_APH said:

I know not an actual comparison, but for those really against all this. When the tees are set far back in the tee box so the hole effectively plays 5 to 10 yards longer than a middle or front tee placement is that upsetting? 

Uh, yes! 

[Beakbryce]

On 12/25/2023 at 7:06 AM, DaveP043 said:

I don't know, I'll accept the relative consistency of conforming balls, as compared to the much more random behaviors of found and recycled balls.  But you be you, good luck.

This discussion is not about recycled balls as they are truly not deserving.

I have bought one dozen new golf balls in the last 10 years and that only because I was sent a Dick's gift card and there wasn't anything else to buy there. I find on the course and then use several different brands of quality balls and it doesn't seem to affect my score. I have played Titleist balls to where the Titleist almost can't be read. Trust me that if the ball was ruining my score it would get tossed.

For most people, the ball is much higher quality than their swing. 

I think MGS should hit a single ball a couple of hundred times and see exactly what the yardage and offline difference is from beginning to end. That would be a cool test and maybe put to rest this notion that a ball like the Pro V1 can't be hit a couple of hundred times without significant loss. 

I have found a couple of balls that didn't fly right, but easy to diagnose after a swing or 2 and I just tossed those. 99% still playable. 

Every found ball is like $2-5 in savings to be put towards other stuff. Like clubs, bags, green fees. It's all about priorities. 

 

[GolfSpy_APH]

5 minutes ago, Beakbryce said:

This discussion is not about recycled balls as they are truly not deserving.

I have bought one dozen new golf balls in the last 10 years and that only because I was sent a Dick's gift card and there wasn't anything else to buy there. I find on the course and then use several different brands of quality balls and it doesn't seem to affect my score. I have played Titleist balls to where the Titleist almost can't be read. Trust me that if the ball was ruining my score it would get tossed.

For most people, the ball is much higher quality than their swing. 

I think MGS should hit a single ball a couple of hundred times and see exactly what the yardage and offline difference is from beginning to end. That would be a cool test and maybe put to rest this notion that a ball like the Pro V1 can't be hit a couple of hundred times without significant loss. 

I have found a couple of balls that didn't fly right, but easy to diagnose after a swing or 2 and I just tossed those. 99% still playable. 

Every found ball is like $2-5 in savings to be put towards other stuff. Like clubs, bags, green fees. It's all about priorities. 

 

This and various other used ball tests have been done.

Massive differences and very clear significant performance loss. 

[Beakbryce]

On 12/26/2023 at 8:53 AM, Stuka44 said:

Especially when what I am doing, can't be construed, IN ANY WAY WHATSOEVER TO BE HARMFUL TO THE GAME.

That says it all! Thanks for that.

[Beakbryce]

On 12/26/2023 at 3:55 PM, Another Steve said:

Know that to a great  extent I’m arguing here for the sake of arguing… I freely admit that I am not gonna change your mind and you cannot change mine. I am just not that concerned about the proposed changes. I accept that we all will lose yardage. But then, I’ve already played the game with balata n blades when everything was shorter….. and harder. Been there, and am ok going back there as long as we all go back there together.   

To answer your question - IMHO the USGA defines integrity of the game as - the game being played in accordance with the current rules, with the the equipment proscribed by those rules, in the manner that those who make the rules (the USGA) have determined the game is supposed to be played. (That last part is the real point of contention as it is Not necessarily how (some of ?) the masses want to play the game).

Doesn't really matter why the USGA feels the need to make the change. It’s their prerogative to make any changes they see fit.

In  short - It is their game and their rules. We can choose to play by them or not. If we choose not, (then) it is guaranteed that the game will be forever fundamentally changed….  If not damaged into obscurity landing right next to bowling.

 

That is a fundamental difference. It isn't their game. It's our game. Who voted them in? Do you pay dues to the USGA? I don't.

Taxation without representation is still tyranny. 

[Beakbryce]

4 hours ago, Subdiver1 said:

EMERGENCY! EMERGENCY! DANGER WILL ROBBINS! DANGER!

Upon further review of the data golf MOST DEFINITELY has a distance problem.  Based on this breaking data this can definitely NOT be a result of course conditions, professional ability or fitness development among the elite of the sport!  It HAS TO BE "the ball" as demonsrated by compilation of extensive 2024 season performance data.  This new ball that they are all using at Kapalua this week, in the 2024 season, is providing a HUGE advantage over 2023 ball technology.  As you can see from the graphic (source: Golf Channel, 6 Jan 24) players gained OVER 93 YARDS in just 1 month with this new 2024 ball technology. Manufacturers and technology are OUT OF CONTROL. This must stop today!  At this rate we will run out of space on earth to make golf courses long enough to contain even the shortest players and will need to move golf to Venus where the gravity, the only viable solution, will help off set any future potential advances in ball design and technology.

To ensure the average recreational golfer will not be exposed to this new technology, allowing them to immediately  overpower their local muni courses rendering these venues obsolete within the month, and to prevent the proliferation of these new 2024 "tour grade" balls, USGA and R&A representatives will replace the greeters and cashiers at all hardball retailers such as Rick's Sports, Valuemart, Playitoveragain Sports and will review all orders prior to shipment from.such online retailers as Karls Golfland, Breakfastballs.com, Rick's, Valmart, and of course CPG.  Further rules to be immediately presently forthwith announced soon to take effect imminently heretofor to offset this heretical advancement in ball technology.

It took 4 full attempts to read this to my wife I was laughing so hard. Well done!

[Beakbryce]

37 minutes ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

This and various other used ball tests have been done.

Massive differences and very clear significant performance loss. 

Shucks!

My whole golfing expenditure priority just took a massive hit! 

Actually, I haven't seen that in real play but maybe an 85 MPH swing doesn't make a Pro V1 go Owwwwwwwwwww!

Now I need to go look up the test! Thank you for letting me know. Link?

Edited January 6 by Beakbryce

[GolfSpy_APH]

1 hour ago, Beakbryce said:

Shucks!

My whole golfing expenditure priority just took a massive hit! 

Actually, I haven't seen that in real play but maybe an 85 MPH swing doesn't make a Pro V1 go Owwwwwwwwwww!

Now I need to go look up the test! Thank you for letting me know. Link?

https://mygolfspy.com/labs/mygolfspy-lab-how-does-cover-damage-affect-golf-ball-flight/

Moderate scuffed caused 43 yard difference carry.... and 46 yards offline. Even a light scuff at 10 yards offline and 10 feet difference in height is pretty huge. 

[RickyBobby_PR]

Basically there will be no updates any OEMs to current balls in 2028 and beyond. Possibly even 2027 for some like titleist who would have a release in jan 2027 based on current releases. So anyone who doesn’t have a stock of current balls in 2027 will be relegated to trying to find some and probably pay higher prices on secondary market or have to buy the new ball late 2027 and into 2028. 

https://www.usga.org/content/dam/usga/pdf/Equipment/ES-Notices-final-12-5-23-USGA-RA-Official.pdf

These updated test conditions will be applied to all golf ball submissions for the
January 2028 List of Conforming Golf Balls. In other words, all balls received by the
USGA/R&A during or after October 2027 will be evaluated in accordance with the
new test conditions ONLY. Balls that conform will appear in the List of Conforming
Golf Balls beginning January 2028.

 

[Subdiver1]

4 hours ago, Beakbryce said:

It took 4 full attempts to read this to my wife I was laughing so hard. Well done!

Appreciate that. Glad to hear someone's day was brightened by a bit of silliness.

[Another Steve]

4 hours ago, Beakbryce said:

That is a fundamental difference. It isn't their game. It's our game. Who voted them in? Do you pay dues to the USGA? I don't.

Taxation without representation is still tyranny. 

Nope - not a USGA member at present so I play “my game by my rules” cuz right now every round is just practice or fun…. A Score card is strictly optional and multiple balls and retried shots are expected as long as it doesn’t slow anyone else down. Now if I were to play in a league or sanctioned tournament then I would be playing “their game by their rules”…. It been “their game” for over 100 years. We decided to play it and adopt it as our own. We agreed to play it by “their rules” if we choose to keep a handicap under “their” system to play in events or league’s sanctioned by “them”. 
 

Like I said, I’m gonna take whatever equipment i have available and go have fun. If I can’t reach the par 5 in 2 so be it. If I have to play a 5 wood second shot into a par 4 - ok then. Back in the late ‘80’s and early 90’s I got my ass handed to me by a couple old farts that regularly hit driver/3 wood/9iron/one putt on par 4’s. Driver/3wood/3wood/ 7iron/one putt on par 5’s and Driver/wedge/one putt on par 3’s. They did not complain, they just enjoyed playing the game. All a matter of perspective.