Electric Car Purchase

[Josh Parker]

16 minutes ago, Middler said:

You said “I think it will be a game changer.” After 10 years trying seems unlikely.

Ok you are correct....  my apologies for confusing the situation or suggesting something other than electric will work.  

 

Edited January 15 by Josh Parker

[funkyjudge]

We have several EVs, and even more plug-in hybrid vehicles in our development of about 220 townhomes (a handful of Teslas, one Mercedes EV, several Lexus plug-ins and my Volvo).  All of us, with the exception of one Tesla owner who must be charging his Model S at work or elsewhere, have been charging the same way that I do, running the charging cable under the garage door.  One resident had his charger mounted on the outside of his garage, but the homeowners association forced him to remove it and he now has it mounted inside the garage adjacent to the main electrical panel, as I also do.

My wife got elected to the HOA Board a couple months ago, mainly due to frustrations with the EV policy, as well as a few other seemingly-insane rules that the Association had instituted. She was put in charge of working with the HOA's outside attorney in writing a new EV policy for the Association.

[funkyjudge]

3 minutes ago, chisag said:

 

...  I would install my charger and say "Sue me". 

“All the data shows that EVs are just much, much less likely to set on fire than their petrol equivalent,” Energy and Climate Intelligence Unit Head of Transport Colin Walker claimed in a prepared statement. “The many, many fires that you have for petrol or diesel cars just aren’t reported.”

When looking at vehicle fires in Norway – which boasts the largest percentage of EVs – it was found that there were four to five times more fires in ICE-powered vehicles as compared to their EV counterparts. More specifically, there were 3.8 fires per 100,000 electric or hybrid cars in 2022, with 68 fires per 100,000 cars of all fuel types.

One of the more notable instances of electric vehicle fires in the United States came in the form of the Chevy Bolt EV. Back in April 2021, General Motors recalled 69,000 examples of the 2017-2019 Bolt EV over concerns of the battery pack overheating and suddenly bursting into flames. GM even went as far as to advise owners to park their vehicle outside and away from covered structures."

 

See my comment above (re: my wife and her HOA BOD assignment).  Better than getting sued.

[excourse]

Just curious as how y'all feel about the environmental impact of EVs? Cobalt and lithium mining create as much if not more pollution than petroleum and battery disposal will be a nightmare. I fully understand the need to get away from petro, however are EVs the ultimate answer? Curious to hear the opinions of those more educated on the issue. 

[chisag]

4 minutes ago, funkyjudge said:

See my comment above (re: my wife and her HOA BOD assignment).  Better than getting sued.

 

... Back when we first moved in and before small satellite dishes, I installed a big 10' dish I'm my backyard. HOA threatened me with law suits because you know busy body neighbors complained it was an eye sore. I told them I am an actor and needed access to all channels and under the Freedom Of Information Act they didn't have a legal leg to stand on. After looking into it, they dropped the issue. 

... To be fair our HOA was voluntary and the AZ HOA's are much more Authoritarian with what seems like dictators in charge. When I had Covid they left a note one my door and sent an email that they would be charging me a fee because some weeds were popping up in my front yard. I responded that I had Covid and would come to their house to discuss it or I could just pull the weeds as soon as I was fully recovered. They choose the latter. I tip my cap to Mrs Funky for not just sitting at home and complaining but actually doing something about it! 

[chisag]

6 minutes ago, excourse said:

Just curious as how y'all feel about the environmental impact of EVs? Cobalt and lithium mining create as much if not more pollution than petroleum and battery disposal will be a nightmare. I fully understand the need to get away from petro, however are EVs the ultimate answer? Curious to hear the opinions of those more educated on the issue. 

 

... As always in 'Murica money rules. The amount of disinformation out there by Big Oil is impressive. You really have to do your own research to sift though it all but this is from Invest Canada:


Battery recycling

As the North American leader in battery recycling technology, Canada offers a stable source of recycled materials for new batteries.

Li-Cycle and Lithion Recycling have both developed patented processes that recover and recycle approximately 95% of the materials in an EV battery. The purity of the recycled materials is on par with freshly mined minerals, meaning that batteries can be recycled over and over again.

[funkyjudge]

21 minutes ago, chisag said:

 

... Back when we first moved in and before small satellite dishes, I installed a big 10' dish I'm my backyard. HOA threatened me with law suits because you know busy body neighbors complained it was an eye sore. I told them I am an actor and needed access to all channels and under the Freedom Of Information Act they didn't have a legal leg to stand on. After looking into it, they dropped the issue. 

... To be fair our HOA was voluntary and the AZ HOA's are much more Authoritarian with what seems like dictators in charge. When I had Covid they left a note one my door and sent an email that they would be charging me a fee because some weeds were popping up in my front yard. I responded that I had Covid and would come to their house to discuss it or I could just pull the weeds as soon as I was fully recovered. They choose the latter. I tip my cap to Mrs Funky for not just sitting at home and complaining but actually doing something about it! 

We have lived in this community for nearly 38 years (moved here in July, 1986), and have had a few battles with the “homeowners Gestapo”, as we used to call them. Some former BOD members, including a couple of former Board Presidents, were far more dictator-like. I spoke up at a few of the Association’s Annual Meetings, and also came to the defense of some of our neighbors, particularly a Ukrainian/Russian couple, who were being bullied and talked down to by former BOD members. Our Ukrainian next door neighbor wanted me to run for a seat on the Board, but there were two reasons why I didn’t do so:

1.) I was still working full-time and traveling extensively at that time,

2.) My chances of getting elected to the Board were slim, as many former homeowners here viewed me as a “disruptive figure”.

My wife swore that she would never want to be on the HOA Board, but finally she saw a need for someone who had strong organizational, managerial, and planning experience to get things done (she recently retired as a Senior Director at AMTRAK, with responsibility for 9 offices and a staff of about 40 employees, as well as personal offices in both Philadelphia and at AMTRAK HQ in Washington, DC). When a Board opening occurred and a special election was to be held in late 2023, she expressed her interest in the position and submitted her CV, along with a statement regarding why she wanted a seat on the Board. As they say, “the rest is history”,  and she now holds a seat as Board VP.

My wife also is a volunteer Ombudsman for the Aging, which consumes a fair amount of her time and energy. I often say that she may possibly be working as hard, or harder, no than she did in her 40-year career in rail transportation, including 11 years at AMTRAK to finish that career.

[Siamese Moose]

I'm 2 to 3 years away from a new vehicle. My requirements will be a 250 mile range in the winter with a bike rack (aerodynamic drag on the range of 15-25%). Right now, the only vehicles that do that are more than I'm willing to pay. (My philosophy on cars is utilitarian, not luxury.) But I also spent my career in environmental work, so I want to maximize my impact. A big part of that is for all vehicles of all types, the lifetime carbon impact is 80-90% in the manufacturing. In other words, buying used is the lowest impact. The choice to balance that with updated safety and other features is deeply personal. And just a comment, the ICE proponents love to tout the recycling issues with batteries: well, that's actually far better than the recycling issues of ICE engines. Plus, the technological prospects for that are extremely promising, and I'm a technology sceptic.

[yungkory]

6 hours ago, excourse said:

Just curious as how y'all feel about the environmental impact of EVs? Cobalt and lithium mining create as much if not more pollution than petroleum and battery disposal will be a nightmare. I fully understand the need to get away from petro, however are EVs the ultimate answer? Curious to hear the opinions of those more educated on the issue. 

Show me independent scientific studies that state mining creates as much, or more pollution, than me driving an EV and charging it using the solar panels on my roof. Then, maybe I'll believe it. Further, Europe is banning new ICE vehicles aren't they? Whenever I'm skeptical about something, I like to look abroad. 

6 hours ago, Josh Parker said:

Ok you are correct....  my apologies for confusing the situation or suggesting something other than electric will work.  

 

The Mirai has been out since 2014 I believe. On Oahu there are exactly 3 hydrogen stations compared to the 100s of EV stations. Toyota went all in on hydrogen spending millions lobbying against EVs, only to give up and make their own, which was recalled because the wheels were falling off. Yeah, the part of the car that they all share in common.

Elon is a huge boner, but there's no denying his company changed the vehicle landscape forever.

[MattF]

13 hours ago, Preeway said:

I know it’s been stated before but the only thing slowing down the growth of the EV market is the addition of more charging stations. I’m surprised we don’t see more gas stations with more charging stations these days. Maybe it’s more widespread on the east and west coast but in these parts, it’s few and far between. 

The other thing is the current state of the US electric grid, especially in Texas. That infrastructure as a whole needs serious work and it's just not being done.

[hohjoe]

14 hours ago, excourse said:

Just curious as how y'all feel about the environmental impact of EVs? Cobalt and lithium mining create as much if not more pollution than petroleum and battery disposal will be a nightmare. I fully understand the need to get away from petro, however are EVs the ultimate answer? Curious to hear the opinions of those more educated on the issue. 

I have a 2023 Tesla Model 3 and the battery uses zero cobalt.

[hohjoe]

Planning trips in the Tesla is a breeze. Charging stops are usually 10-15 minutes, about the same amount of time it would take me to fill up the ICE and visit the restroom. And Tesla has the best charging infrastructure of all the EV manufactures, which is why a, sadly, number of them are switching to the Tesla connector soon.

I did take a trip to Murphy, NC and there were plenty of free chargers in only one location in town, although they were slow.

The best charging stations are Buc-ee's and they have a number of chargers at each location.

[Middler]

1 hour ago, hohjoe said:

Planning trips in the Tesla is a breeze. Charging stops are usually 10-15 minutes, about the same amount of time it would take me to fill up the ICE and visit the restroom. And Tesla has the best charging infrastructure of all the EV manufactures, which is why a, sadly, number of them are switching to the Tesla connector soon.

I did take a trip to Murphy, NC and there were plenty of free chargers in only one location in town, although they were slow.

The best charging stations are Buc-ee's and they have a number of chargers at each location.

I’m a fan of EVs, but charging on long trips will add some time (10%) to your total trip time, let’s not suggest there’s no difference. I gave the example before, my trip home in an ICE is 11 hour driving with 1 hour stopping for food, gas and bathrooms, so 12 hours total. In an EV it’s 11 hours driving with 2 hours high speed charging, and we take care of food and bathroom breaks while charging, so 13 hours total. Fortunately Tesla chargers are always near food and or bathrooms. And with over 22,000 Tesla high speed chargers in the US, I have yet to need to find some other charger…

…Destination chargers at grocery stores, restaurants or hotels are almost always quite a bit slower - hours typically, not “10-15 minutes.” Often not well maintained either and store employees aren’t much help. Not good for trip planning. Buc-ee’s are a notable exception, but we don’t all have them in our states.

OTOH I never lose ANY time to gas up in every day driving. I charge at home and I can have a full tank of electrons every morning with zero travel/wait time if I want to. I take less than a half dozen trips a year that force me to charge away from home.

Edited January 15 by Middler

[Middler]

5 hours ago, hohjoe said:

I have a 2023 Tesla Model 3 and the battery uses zero cobalt.

Must be a M3RWD with an LFP battery. No other Tesla, even other Model 3's, have them - all other US Teslas are NCA or NCM. But LFP may become more and more common in the years ahead, cheaper, more stable but lower energy density for lower priced models. The LFP batteries come from China, so I assume they won't be eligible for IRS tax credits in the future.

Edited January 15 by Middler

[hohjoe]

4 hours ago, Middler said:

I’m a fan of EVs, but charging on long trips will add some time (10%) to your total trip time, let’s not suggest there’s no difference. I gave the example before, my trip home in an ICE is 11 hour driving with 1 hour stopping for food, gas and bathrooms, so 12 hours total. In an EV it’s 11 hours driving with 2 hours high speed charging, and we take care of food and bathroom breaks while charging, so 13 hours total. Fortunately Tesla chargers are always near food and or bathrooms. And with over 22,000 Tesla high speed chargers in the US, I have yet to need to find some other charger…

…Destination chargers at grocery stores, restaurants or hotels are almost always quite a bit slower - hours typically, not “10-15 minutes.” Often not well maintained either and store employees aren’t much help. Not good for trip planning. Buc-ee’s are a notable exception, but we don’t all have them in our states.

OTOH I never lose ANY time to gas up in every day driving. I charge at home and I can have a full tank of electrons every morning with zero travel/wait time if I want to. I take less than a half dozen trips a year that force me to charge away from home.

Where did I suggest "there’s no difference."

 

And I didn't say “10-15 minutes.”  I said "usually 10-15 minutes" and that's been my experience.

[Middler]

16 minutes ago, hohjoe said:

Where did I suggest "there’s no difference."

 

And I didn't say “10-15 minutes.”  I said "usually 10-15 minutes" and that's been my experience.

You left a lot unsaid, and I expanded on it, any problem with that?

Many reading this thread aren’t familiar with EVs, and saying “Planning trips in the Tesla is a breeze. Charging stops are usually 10-15 minutes, about the same amount of time it would take me to fill up the ICE and visit the restroom.” - deserves a little qualification.

That’s a best case charging scenario, and while possible you’d be making more 10-15 minute stops with an EV than an ICE. 

Long road trips in EVs will take a little longer, but it’s not as bad as many ICE owners think. That’s all I was getting at.

Edited January 15 by Middler

[hohjoe]

40 minutes ago, Middler said:

You left a lot unsaid, and I expanded on it, any problem with that?

 

 

Yes.

You took my literal quote and inserted your comments and suggestions. 

Create your own posts with your own thoughts and don't expand on mine.

[Middler]

4 hours ago, hohjoe said:

Yes.

You took my literal quote and inserted your comments and suggestions. 

Create your own posts with your own thoughts and don't expand on mine.

Relax Skippy. We all post as we see fit, that’s how forums work…

Edited January 16 by Middler

[GaDawg]

My wife has a Toyota hybrid and I will stick with it vs possibly allowing my house to burn down.

[Shapotomous]

It seems there are still some weather related kinks to work out before eliminating ICE vehicles entirely...  Many dead charging stations and cars due to the extreme cold that happens quite often in parts of the country. 

This reminds me of the VW def issue a few years ago when it would freeze up in this type of cold and the def sensors would cause the car to shut down.  Those german engineers forgot to put a heater in the def reservoir!  

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/chicago-area-tesla-charging-stations-024817227.html

 

Edited January 16 by Shapotomous

[funkyjudge]

This appeared in an article in USA Today this week, and based on an experience that I had yesterday, it is absolutely spot-on:

The problem is fairly simple: Batteries don’t work as well when it’s really cold, reducing the range electric vehicles can travel. The batteries also charge slower. So the demand for EV charging has outpaced the EV-charger infrastructure. The result? A bunch of people with Teslas and other battery-powered cars have wound up stuck, or waiting in ridiculous lines to power up.

Here is exactly what I experienced yesterday in traveling with my friend in his 2023 Tesla Model Y to and from a tournament on our winter golf tour.  We alternate driving every other week, with me driving my PHEV Volvo XC60 T8 Recharge one week, and him driving the Tesla the following week:

My friend, Kevin, showed-up in his Tesla to pick me up at 7 AM yesterday, and I noticed that his display was showing a 71% charge and a range that would just about get us to the golf course and back, a round-trip distance of just less less than 170 miles. He replied that he had programmed his Tesla home "fast charger" to charge overnight to 95% of capacity, but when he got up at 6 AM it was only charged to 80%, which means that it had already used 9% of its available capacity in the approximately 11 mile drive to my house .... already not boding well for making the 170-mile round trip and then him getting home on the remaining 71% of battery power.

We got to the golf course, and his display was showing 41% remaining capacity; maybe we'd be OK.  It was 28* F when we got to the course, and the temperature never reached 35* while we were playing golf, and when we got in the Tesla following our round, the gauge was suddenly showing 37% remaining charge. He punched-in my address, and the estimate was that he'd have about 3% battery power remaining when we got there; looks like we would be stopping at a Tesla Supercharger on our way home!

Driving back toward my house, things got worse in a hurry, and by the time we were 38 miles from where I live (and 49 miles from my friend's house and his Tesla fast charger), the battery had dipped to well below 10% remaining charge.  Kevin quickly summoned a list of nearby Tesla Supercharger locations and asked Siri to begin the battery pre-conditioning process for fast charging.  When the list of Tesla Supercharger locations popped-up, it showed one location at a shopping mall "1.6 miles" from our current location.  The reason that I put "1.6 miles" in quotes is that it was actually about 4 miles and a 10-15 minute drive to this shopping mall location. 

When we reached the shopping mall with the Tesla Superchargers, there were 4 chargers (all in-use), and three other Tesla drivers waiting to get their cars on the chargers. One woman who was waiting told us to take her spot, as she was going to go inside the mall, do some shopping and warm up a bit (the temperature had dropped back into the upper 20s, as it was just a bit past sunset). We got connected to a charger after about 15 minutes of wait time (not horrible), and once connected, the screen in the Tesla told us that charging was "limited to a 50% charge at this location", so Kevin set it to charge to 50%, and the display said that would take about 15 minutes (by this time, we were at 7% of capacity). After 15 minutes, we were only at 31%; we kept it on the charger for another 15 minutes, and reached just above 40%, at which point Kevin said we would have enough juice for him to get to my house for sure and probably for him to get home (he was no longer trusting the estimates that his car's display was giving him regarding remaining charge estimates when we reached my house or when he finally got home). Worst case scenario was that he would need to stop at another Tesla charging location that is in the town where I live and only about 2 miles from my house (this location, at a Wawa convenience super-store with a gas station, has 8 Tesla Superchargers).

We got back on our way toward home following all of this about an hour after we had exited the expressway in search of the Tesla Supercharger location. Less than an hour later, we were at my house, and his battery was again down to 7% of charge capacity. Kevin was very confident that this would get him home "with at least 2 to 3 percent to spare; probably 4 percent", and off he went. I got a text message from him 20 minutes later saying that he was home and the Tesla was in his garage on the charger.

Total travel time between the golf course and my house (84 miles) is normally 1:45 (a little more than 2 hours in rush hour driving). Our trip yesterday, including the detour to charge the Tesla's battery by about 33% and charger wait time, was 3:15.

EDIT/PROLOGUE: I spoke with my friend, Kevin, this morning, and he told me that he had put his Tesla in “aggressive regenerative braking “ mode for the 11 mile drive home from my house last night and actually got home with 8 miles of battery range showing.

Edited January 19 by funkyjudge

[StrokerAce]

17 minutes ago, funkyjudge said:

This appeared in an article in USA Today this week, and based on an experience that I had yesterday, it is absolutely spot-on:

The problem is fairly simple: Batteries don’t work as well when it’s really cold, reducing the range electric vehicles can travel. The batteries also charge slower. So the demand for EV charging has outpaced the EV-charger infrastructure. The result? A bunch of people with Teslas and other battery-powered cars have wound up stuck, or waiting in ridiculous lines to power up.

Here is exactly what I experienced yesterday in traveling with my friend in his 2023 Tesla Model Y to and from a tournament on our winter golf tour.  We alternate driving every other week, with me driving my PHEV Volvo XC60 T8 Recharge one week, and him driving the Tesla the following week:

My friend, Kevin, showed-up in his Tesla to pick me up at 7 AM yesterday, and I noticed that his display was showing a 71% charge and a range that would just about get us to the golf course and back, a round-trip distance of just less less than 170 miles. He replied that he had programmed his Tesla home "fast charger" to charge overnight to 95% of capacity, but when he got up at 6 AM it was only charged to 80%, which means that it had already used 9% of its available capacity in the approximately 11 mile drive to my house .... already not boding well for making the 170-mile round trip and then him getting home on the remaining 71% of battery power.

We got to the golf course, and his display was showing 41% remaining capacity; maybe we'd be OK.  It was 28* F when we got to the course, and the temperature never reached 35* while we were playing golf, and when we got in the Tesla following our round, the gauge was suddenly showing 37% remaining charge. He punched-in my address, and the estimate was that he'd have about 3% battery power remaining when we got there; looks like we would be stopping at a Tesla Supercharger on our way home!

Driving back toward my house, things got worse in a hurry, and by the time we were 38 miles from where I live (and 49 miles from my friend's house and his Tesla fast charger), the battery had dipped to well below 10% remaining charge.  Kevin quickly summoned a list of nearby Tesla Supercharger locations and asked Siri to begin the battery pre-conditioning process for fast charging.  When the list of Tesla Supercharger locations popped-up, it showed one location at a shopping mall "1.6 miles" from our current location.  The reason that I put "1.6 miles" in quotes is that it was actually about 4 miles and a 10-15 minute drive to this shopping mall location. 

When we reached the shopping mall with the Tesla Superchargers, there were 4 chargers (all in-use), and three other Tesla drivers waiting to get their cars on the chargers. One woman who was waiting told us to take her spot, as she was going to go inside the mall, do some shopping and warm up a bit (the temperature had dropped back into the upper 20s, as it was just a bit past sunset). We got connected to a charger after about 15 minutes of wait time (not horrible), and once connected, the screen in the Tesla told us that charging was "limited to a 50% charge at this location", so Kevin set it to charge to 50%, and the display said that would take about 15 minutes (by this time, we were at 7% of capacity). After 15 minutes, we were only at 31%; we kept it on the charger for another 15 minutes, and reached just above 40%, at which point Kevin said we would have enough juice for him to get to my house for sure and probably for him to get home (he was no longer trusting the estimates that his car's display was giving him regarding remaining charge estimates when we reached my house or when he finally got home). Worst case scenario was that he would need to stop at another Tesla charging location that is in the town where I live and only about 2 miles from my house (this location, at a Wawa convenience super-store with a gas station, has 8 Tesla Superchargers).

We got back on our way toward home following all of this about an hour after we had exited the expressway in search of the Tesla Supercharger location. Less than an hour later, we were at my house, and his battery was again down to 7% of charge capacity. Kevin was very confident that this would get him home "with at least 2 to 3 percent to spare; probably 4 percent", and off he went. I got a text message from him 20 minutes later saying that he was home and the Tesla was in his garage on the charger.

Total travel time between the golf course and my house (84 miles) is normally 1:45 (a little more than 2 hours in rush hour driving). Our trip yesterday, including the detour to charge the Tesla's battery by about 33% and charger wait time, was 3:15.

good grief!!

my wife really wanted an electric vehicle about 6 months ago. went and test drove all of the options and made her choice. then her boss got one and was complaining about driving it. problem was the range is way too low and the infrastructure for recharging just isn't ready for the amount of vehicles yet. apparently they told her it would get a certain number of miles and it hasn't been anywhere close to that.

i'm hoping this will be like the home computer industry where advancements happen rapidly and, at the same time, things become less expensive. we really want to move to electric, the house we bought has 2 Tesla chargers, but at this time it's just not practical.

[Preeway]

This is why hybrids make more sense to me. I’d love to go 100% electric but like you said, charging can be a significant obstacle. 

[chisag]

20 minutes ago, StrokerAce said:

good grief!!

my wife really wanted an electric vehicle about 6 months ago. went and test drove all of the options and made her choice. then her boss got one and was complaining about driving it. problem was the range is way too low and the infrastructure for recharging just isn't ready for the amount of vehicles yet. apparently they told her it would get a certain number of miles and it hasn't been anywhere close to that.

i'm hoping this will be like the home computer industry where advancements happen rapidly and, at the same time, things become less expensive. we really want to move to electric, the house we bought has 2 Tesla chargers, but at this time it's just not practical.

 

... One of the things I found interesting is EV and ICE are completely different for highway and around town milage. Once you get up to speed on a highway it takes less gas to maintain it. So setting cruise control at 75 gives you pretty good milage. With an EV it takes the same amount to maintain as it does to get there, so setting the cruise control at 75 uses more battery. Around town you constantly have to press the accelerator and use more gas, stop at a light or stop sign and repeat so milage really suffers. With an EV it takes less battery to get going and then with regenerative braking you are recharging the battery every time you put your foot on the brake or just slow down. 

... I live 4.2 miles from my golf course and will only use about 2% of my battery for the round trip. Even though I failed algebra in high school even I can figure out that's about 30 trips keeping my battery between 20-80% which is recommended for long battery life. Living in Phoenix extreme cold isn' an issue but extreme heat can be. Fast DC charging gets me for 20 - 80% in 20 minutes, but when the temps get to 110 or higher I may only get from 20-60% in 20 minutes and while my milage doesn't suffer anywhere near what Doug experienced, it is reduced slightly. 

... I don't have any long trips in my GV60 planned and if I were going on a long road trip I would probably rent a car. But for around town my EV is really pretty ideal in every way. 

[funkyjudge]

On 1/16/2024 at 9:14 AM, Shapotomous said:

It seems there are still some weather related kinks to work out before eliminating ICE vehicles entirely...  Many dead charging stations and cars due to the extreme cold that happens quite often in parts of the country. 

This reminds me of the VW def issue a few years ago when it would freeze up in this type of cold and the def sensors would cause the car to shut down.  Those german engineers forgot to put a heater in the def reservoir!  

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/chicago-area-tesla-charging-stations-024817227.html

 

There have been many articles like this one and the one that I quoted from USA Today online.  I just saw a story this morning on NBC TV about all of the EVs (almost entirely Teslas) stranded in Chicago and other Midwestern cities because they are completely unable to be charged.  Then, less than 10 minutes later NBC News was touting the fact that the Biden Administration is upping their efforts to force the entire USA to push for “100% electric vehicles by 2030”.

Edited January 19 by funkyjudge

[chisag]

3 minutes ago, funkyjudge said:

There have been many articles like this one and the one that I quoted from USA Today online.  I just saw a story this morning on NBC TV about all of the EVs (almost entirely Teslas) stranded in Chicago and other Midwestern cities because they are completely unable to be charged.  Then, less than 10 minutes later NBC News was touting the fact that the Biden Administration is upping their efforts to force the entire USA to push for “100 electric vehicles by 2030”.

 

... I get there may be a few that have long commutes but drivers in old weather climates can be crazy stupid. Having experienced Chicago winter drivers and especially reckless driving in the snow could be very frustrating. If I owned an EV in Chicago I would make sure I was fully charged before leaving home. And if you don't own a home charger in that kind of climate, you just aren't very intelligent. Again, I understand some live in an apartment or get free charging at the office but I would be very leery of either of those circumstances if I lived somewhere that 0* is more than likely. 

... And I believe I also read the current administration is providing millions to states to pay for more charging stations. I think that is the biggest factor moving forward, more charging stations like we see with ICE so nobody's battery ever runs out. 

[funkyjudge]

1 minute ago, chisag said:

 

... I get there may be a few that have long commutes but drivers in old weather climates can be crazy stupid. Having experienced Chicago winter drivers and especially reckless driving in the snow could be very frustrating. If I owned an EV in Chicago I would make sure I was fully charged before leaving home. And if you don't own a home charger in that kind of climate, you just aren't very intelligent. Again, I understand some live in an apartment or get free charging at the office but I would be very leery of either of those circumstances if I lived somewhere that 0* is more than likely. 

... And I believe I also read the current administration is providing millions to states to pay for more charging stations. I think that is the biggest factor moving forward, more charging stations like we see with ICE so nobody's battery ever runs out. 

You are failing to understand one thing, Sam. EV batteries DO NOT CHARGE AT ALL once temperatures get below a certain level (about 0* F). It does not matter whether you have a home charger or not!  Also, it is not just a “slight” decrease in EV range that occurs in cold temperatures, it is very significant. The same thing happens with the battery in my PHEV. I get a little more than 20 miles of range in “pure EV” mode when it is warm (basically, above about 45* to 50* F.) However, when the temperature is about 35*, I get only 15-16 miles, and when it drops into the 20s, I get 13 miles or less of “pure EV” range. I cannot get more than a couple miles in EV mode when the temperature drops to the teens or below.

In addition, there are lots more people than just apartment-dwellers who do not have the possibility of having an EV charger at home.  In big cities, less than 25% of single-family dwellings have garages; most people who live in those houses are limited to on-street parking. In older cities like Boston, Philadelphia, and NYC, the percentage of people who have no garage, even though they live in single-family homes (mostly row houses) is even higher.  Are these homeowners “not very intelligent“? I certainly don’t think so.

Just installing more EV charging stations is far from the solution to this issue.  Thus, ICE vehicles are the logical choice for a very significant percentage of our population.

I’m all for reducing pollution and making the planet more “green” or carbon-neutral, or whatever you want to call it, and I am also strongly in favor of pursuing all alternatives and advances in vehicle technology. However, I think that we are a long way from EVs being the solution for many (possibly MOST) drivers, and I doubt that EVs will ever be the solution for everyone (or even the large majority of drivers). If I thought that an EV made sense for me, I would have purchased one last year when I got the PHEV. However, it doesn’t make sense for me, as my Volvo PHEV that is just a bit more than one year old has 21,000 miles on it, and more than half of those miles are from trips of 250+ miles. Many of those trips were far more than 250 miles one way (Philadelphia area to Nashville, Western NY, Myrtle Beach, Western Pennsylvania, etc.)

[funkyjudge]

1 hour ago, Preeway said:

This is why hybrids make more sense to me. I’d love to go 100% electric but like you said, charging can be a significant obstacle. 

Currently, and for the foreseeable future, I believe that ICE/electric hybrid vehicles still are the better option for most people.

I love my Volvo PHEV (at least, most of the time I love it, and I don’t ever hate it). However, it was expensive to purchase and it is massively complex. I don’t know whether it will be a good choice, if I decide to keep it and drive it as much as I currently am doing for 6 or 7 years, as I have done with my last two ICE vehicles.

[StrokerAce]

6 minutes ago, funkyjudge said:

Currently, and for the foreseeable future, I believe that ICE/electric hybrid vehicles still are the better option for most people.

I love my Volvo PHEV (at least, most of the time I love it, and I don’t ever hate it). However, it was expensive to purchase and it is massively complex. I don’t know whether it will be a good choice, if I decide to keep it and drive it as much as I currently am doing for 6 or 7 years, as I have done with my last two ICE vehicles.

Even car rental companies are cutting back...

https://www.cnbc.com/2024/01/14/hertz-makes-agile-decision-to-shift-strategy-and-sell-evs-teslas.html

Quote

 

Hertz announced last week that it would be selling roughly a third of its fleet of electric vehicles, or roughly 20,000 cars that are predominately Teslas.

That signaled a further reversal away from the car-rental company’s previously stated goal of converting at least 25% of its entire fleet of cars to EVs by the end of 2024.

Weakening demand, declines in consumer spending and a more competitive EV market have led several automakers to cut plans to produce more EVs and prices of existing cars.

 

And manufacturers too...

https://www.cnn.com/2024/01/19/business/ford-trimming-ev-pickup-production/index.html
 

Quote

 

Ford will shut down one of two production shifts in April at the Dearborn, Michigan, factory that builds the F-150 Lightning electric pickup. The move is part of “matching F-150 Lightning production to customer demand,” the company said Friday.

General Motors recently made a similar announcement about its Chevrolet Silverado EV, announcing it would postpone adding production facilities for the truck, which went into production last spring for corporate customers.

 

 

I think the interest is there but the technology needs to catch up for mass market appeal. There are certain places in the US (i.e. Arizona) where it makes sense but not nationwide yet.

[chisag]

6 minutes ago, funkyjudge said:

You are failing to understand one thing, Sam. EV batteries DO NOT CHARGE AT ALL once temperatures get below a certain level (about 0* F). It does not matter whether you have a home charger or not!  Also, it is not just a “slight” decrease in EV range that occurs in cold temperatures, it is very significant. 

In addition, there are lots more people than just apartment-dwellers who do not have the possibility of having an EV charger at home.  In big cities, less than 25% of single-family dwellings have garages; most people who live in those houses are limited to on-street parking. In older cities like Boston, Philadelphia, and NYC, the percentage of people who have no garage, even though they live in single-family homes (mostly row houses) is even higher.  Are these homeowners “not very intelligent“? I certainly don’t think so.

 

... Ok, calm down Doug, put the coffee down  and re-read my post.   I would be leery of owning an EV if I lived in a climate where the temps can reach 0* and I didn't have the ability to install a home charger. I did say I understand some can't that live in apartments and I would think that suggests row houses and other none single family non attached homes would be in the same boat. I do read folks that say they don't want to install a home charger because they get charging free at work or there is a charging station nearby, which I think is quite different than those that don't have the ability to install a home charger. And my point about making sure you are charged when low temps are on the horizon is just make sure you charge before it gets to 0*. I also understand a few may need their car everyday and use a lot of their battery with their commute but if it were me, I would think long and hard about buying an EV if I lived someplace 0* is a regular occurrence and I needed my EV every day. 

... I did a ton  of research before deciding to buy my EV including a home charger including the cost for installation, how the extreme heat would effect my battery and how far I could expect to get on the highway and around town. It made sense for me here in Phoenix but unless I had a 2nd car in the family, and I lived alone, I probably would not have bought an EV in Chicago if I had a daily commute.

... I think EV's are awesome and they are the future. But I do understand they aren't for everyone just yet and have a long way to go for a variety of reasons. Extreme cold, more charger stations and a longer range just a few.