The search for driver consistency

[saz0418]

I put a registration dot on the top of my grip.  Its sort of the same concept as ALL your iron and hybrid grips have where there is a line or an indentation or some other mark on the top of the grip that, when centered, indicates the face is square.   On your driver (or other adjustable clubs), the registration mark is not all that helpful once you adjust the loft sleeve because its only on the top at the neutral setting. 

On my driver (Ping G425 SFT), I actually set my grip with my face about 15 degrees closed.   With it closed, the registration mark I applied is on the top of the grip (12:00 looking at me, if you will).   Then I set up and swing.   

Even when closed, I know that if  I aim up the right middle with the ball in the right position,  the face will come in square and my drives will go straight (ish) -- center of the fairway.   I then use the mark (I put a dot with a silver sharpie) to control my shape and flight.  If I want a fade (or a drive I can start left and know it won't go more left), I rotate the mark on the grip to about 12:30 -- not quite in the middle of the grip but slightly to the right.  That opens the face at impact about maybe 2 -3 degrees-- enough to produce a left to right flight.   Obviously, I can rotate it more to the right (clockwise) and get a more pronounced curve.   

I do this with my 3W, 7W, and all my hybrids.   Works pretty well.   I just takes setting your grip on the club with the face in the orientation that you know (or find through testing) produces the line and flight you want.   

On my Ping, I can also close the face so that the shaft intersects about 1/2 of the turbulators on the toe of the club (about 15 degrees, as I noted).  That is sort of my reference, but then I make a mark because it's easier to just put that on the top of the grip and know it's correct. 

I just soften my arms and hands once I set up so that the face looks square behind the ball at address.  I know based on how I have set my grip that when the club delivers under speed and load, it will return to the ball in the correct orientation, even though I have it set noticeably closed when I take my grip.    

You may find a part of the logo on your shaft that can serve the same purpose.   If not, get yourself a silver sharpie.  

 

[GolfSpy_BEN]

4 hours ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

@Ben Joest I know we have talked about it a little, but what are your preferred shapes for heads? Is there one that inspires more confidence vs another?

With the caveat, that I’ll try just about anything. I like the smaller head profiles. The 440cc heads, like the TD or TSr4 or G430LST. I’m not too particular regarding glossy vs matte and have played both happily. The only drivers I haven’t liked or gotten along with in any iteration have been the stealth line

[cksurfdude]

55 minutes ago, saz0418 said:

I put a registration dot on the top of my grip.  Its sort of the same concept as ALL your iron and hybrid grips have where there is a line or an indentation or some other mark on the top of the grip that, when centered, indicates the face is square.   On your driver (or other adjustable clubs), the registration mark is not all that helpful once you adjust the loft sleeve because its only on the top at the neutral setting. 

Hmmm, interesting. I just kinda eyeball the face as I take my grip and set the club behind the ball .. but will take a look at the grill also to see if that reference check helps me setup any more consistently... Thx.

[PJVicary]

My game off the tee has gone from decent to embarrassing. My current gamer is a 10.5 degree SIM with a Talamonti T 55 gm shaft with @neutral bias. I used to be able to produce a confident draw but as my swing speed slowed down. ( I’m currently almost 73 with significant neck surgery) I have had to revert to a butter cut fade and forget distance. If I try to overcook one I end up with a low snap hook which is dog ugly

[Gripit]

On 10/3/2023 at 11:35 PM, Shapotomous said:

"... but it closed the face too much for my eye."

I have a hard time looking down at a closed driver face.  Also, for some reason I would slice the snot out of my drives when I had a closed face.  Years ago I started turning the face to look square or a little open before gripping my driver and that helped not only my visual comfort, but also I started making better drives (did that add loft too?).  I guess that slightly open face helped me be a little more aggressive closing the face through the bottom of my swing?  Anyways...a closed face at address is something I avoid at all costs.  Driver must be square or slightly open to my eye.

[Subdiver1]

On 10/23/2023 at 6:58 AM, bens197 said:

My TSi3 experiment has failed and while I do not want to quit on the club and its components, nothing has been able to compete with my G400 LST.  

I say it confidently because I am straighter and as far if not further with this (because I can hit it on the screws more often) than anything else at the moment.

Since its release we've seen the G410, G425 & G430 which means we are approaching 7 years since inception.  That is a LOT of technology and I hope that when this driver meets its inevitable maker there will be some combo equal to the task.

I have tried Titleist, TM, Callaway, PXG, and a multitude of others in the last couple of years. Admittedly the latest models I tried did not include the Paradym or newest Titleist, but the closest I came to my gamer (G400 with the Evenflow black) has been a ZX7. NOTHING has been as consistent, distance or dispersion, as that combo. The only reason I really tried was when the shaft broke I found out that they are no longer making the Evenflow black and I have no idea what combo would replace that.  So, although I tried, I just pray that the shaft holds up so I don't have to settle for the next best thing to my PING. You just can't deny performance.

[mackdaddy]

On 10/3/2023 at 10:46 PM, Ben Joest said:

Hello Folks! 
 

Many of you have seen me around the forum popping up in various threads here and there. I have written about my evergreen fascination with muscleback blades. More recently, I  wrapped up testing the latest Titleist irons. Now, I am starting this thread as a means of having a place to record my thoughts and findings as I figure out a path forward regarding the Driver in my bag. As the title describes, I am looking for consistency, so I am going to put the 3 drivers currently in my possession up against one another and see which wins out. 
 

Let’s meet the competitors:

Current Gamer

The current gamer is a Titleist TSR3, 9 degrees with a stiff Tensei black 1K shaft. I have it adjusted up 1.5 degrees with the weight set in the second to last position towards a draw bias.

Former Gamer

A Callaway Rogue ST TD LS, 9 degree with a Tensei white X-stiff shaft. I have it set up 1 degree.

Former Former Gamer

A Ping G425 Max, 9 degree with the Ping tour stiff shaft. I have it adjusted 1.5 degrees with the weight toward the heel to promote a draw bias. 
 

My small miss is a push fade. My big miss is banana slice. My over compensating miss is a low hook. 
 

A part of this journey is going to be working toward eliminating the over the top move that periodically works it’s way into my swing when I’m either trying to kill it or starting to fatigue. I will also be using a series of range sessions to determine which of these 3 drivers gives me the best distance, dispersion, reliable shot shape. 

I think the gains in driver tech have hit the peak with the cor rules.  I believe that the biggest gains left will come from maximizing driver shaft performance.  When I got fit for my TSR 3 I loved the way if felt.  The fitter didn't make any effort to fit me to a better shaft he just showed me the other brands.  I really liked the results of the TSR 3, it had the best dispersion and was surely the most forgiving.  I have played a tour only Matrix Ozik HD 7 TP shaft for over 7 years.  I like it so much I put a universal adapter on it a few years ago.  When I put the TSR 3 on my shaft I picked up 18 yards on average.  I really believe the shaft is the next and best avenue for driver yardages.  

[RI_Redneck]

Cool thread. I don't get over here much (hang out in that other forum too much) but wanted to throw some info in here that I recommend to those hunting clubs whether they be drivers, FWs or what. People are very sensitive to weight and typically don't realize it. I see many struggling with a club only to find it is not weighted and/or balanced to their needs. Case in point, My ideal total weight range for driver is 310-350 grams. Ideal MOI is 2990 to 3060. If I get outside those numbers, problems start and get worse the further I go! I have at least 20 drivers in my collection that I can take out and hit fine any time. Only a few have the same shaft and they vary from R to TX and High, Mid and Low launch. I have adjusted the loft to suit the shaft so I get good launch numbers, but shaft profile has never been a big issue for me. One other spec I pay close attention to is torque because it affects my feeling of control with the club. High torque shaft (4° of higher) do not work for me because they just feel too "loose". Like I can't control the clubhead through impact. Probably just in my head, but yet it's there!

All that being said, I NEVER test a club without a roll of lead tape with me. That way I can adjust it if needed and get it in my preferred weight range at the very least. Just something to think about when testing.

BT

[chisag]

20 hours ago, Mackey said:

I think the gains in driver tech have hit the peak with the cor rules.

 

... I think you may be underestimating the power of technology. Yes, COR is maxed out under normal circumstances but every OEM is experimenting with more ways to increase distance and/or accuracy. I would not be surprised to find say Taylor Made bringing out an OSC (Optimized Spin Control) series of drivers where center contact with the same club and same loft produces 2000 in one model, 2250 in the next and 2500 in another. Then the same with off center contact with one producing longer shots with low heel contact and another longer shots with high toe contact. 

... As always it will come down to how much of a percentage increase is it worth paying for. 3-5yds longer at $649 with a stock shaft? 7-10yds? 10+ yds? For some the answer is a resounding yes and others will just stick with what they have. Especially the higher or mid index player with inconsistent contact and a non repeatable swing and they make up the bulk of the market. 

Edited October 25, 2023 by chisag

[Fred Mitchell]

I am golf store poor in my area but about an hour and change away there is a store that is above and beyond patient at letting me try anything I want and no matter how manyof the newest models and the 1 year older models I could not beat the consistency on the Pings 425 or 430, sure a perfectly hit Titleist TSR2 or Callaway Parydym went farther by 6-7 yards but if not perfectly hit the ping passed them and was straighter perfect hit or not. That just my experience but if most people were truly honest with their selves they would admit the percent of not 100% perfect hits and the fact that on average the Ping is consistently straighter outweighs the couple of rippers they got when testing the others. Pride is the downfall for most of us though.

[Micah T]

Just catching up with this l thread, good stuff all around! @Ben Joest good luck with the search! When I was higher handicap, I was obsessed with my arrows, now as a lower cap I’m obsessed with just being a better archer. Classic chicken or egg I guess…

[cksurfdude]

On 10/25/2023 at 4:14 PM, RI_Redneck said:

People are very sensitive to weight and typically don't realize it. I see many struggling with a club only to find it is not weighted and/or balanced to their needs.

Today agree - agree you don't have to be Tiger Woods to new able to feel club or swing weight differences.

I find i prefer my clubs within a certain SW range .. you know: The Goldilocks Effect .. not too heavy, not too light ... 

[GolfSpy_BEN]

Update: 
 

Through a series of events that are too convoluted to go into any great detail here, I have narrowed my driver pool to this:

This is the latest (and only) driver I am using. I still have the red Ventus TR shaft and I will be swapping out the Titleist adapter for a Callaway one. 

[Josh Parker]

3 minutes ago, Ben Joest said:

Update: 
 

Through a series of events that are too convoluted to go into any great detail here, I have narrowed my driver pool to this:

This is the latest (and only) driver I am using. I still have the red Ventus TR shaft and I will be swapping out the Titleist adapter for a Callaway one. 

Interested in seeing the numbers after some testing.  What shaft did it come with?   Congrats on the purchase.

[GolfSpy_BEN]

11 minutes ago, jdparker said:

Interested in seeing the numbers after some testing.  What shaft did it come with?   Congrats on the purchase.

I’ve played this shaft in a fairway wood but not a driver. I’ll get some numbers on the MLM and see what I’ve got. Luckily, the Ventus is a good bail out option.

[Josh Parker]

6 minutes ago, Ben Joest said:

I’ve played this shaft in a fairway wood but not a driver. I’ll get some numbers on the MLM and see what I’ve got. Luckily, the Ventus is a good bail out option.

Absolutely!  Look forward to seeing the 2 head to head. 

[Fred Mitchell]

On 10/28/2023 at 7:24 AM, Ben Joest said:

Update: 
 

Through a series of events that are too convoluted to go into any great detail here, I have narrowed my driver pool to this:

This is the latest (and only) driver I am using. I still have the red Ventus TR shaft and I will be swapping out the Titleist adapter for a Callaway one. 

Not saying buy one but if you can borrow one maybe a slightly shorter shaft just to compare results  heck or even try a 3 wood shaft just as an experiment. I mean Rory was in a 44 inch driver for a good while saw it written somewhere that he said being straight down the pipe and having confidence to absolutely rip it when he wanted to more than made up for any loss in distance in shorter shaft. Like I said just to compare, it cant hurt, takes 2 minutes to switch shafts out.

[GolfSpy_BEN]

12 minutes ago, Fred Mitchell said:

Not saying buy one but if you can borrow one maybe a slightly shorter shaft just to compare results  heck or even try a 3 wood shaft just as an experiment. I mean Rory was in a 44 inch driver for a good while saw it written somewhere that he said being straight down the pipe and having confidence to absolutely rip it when he wanted to more than made up for any loss in distance in shorter shaft. Like I said just to compare, it cant hurt, takes 2 minutes to switch shafts out.

I have given this some prior thought and if I can lay hands on a shorter driver shaft I will get some comparisons and post the results. Thank you for the suggestion

[Fred Mitchell]

21 minutes ago, Ben Joest said:

I have given this some prior thought and if I can lay hands on a shorter driver shaft I will get some comparisons and post the results. Thank you for the suggestion

shorter shaft and I am hitting it longer myself. Might not work but worth a shot especially if you are long anyway giving up a few yards for striping it down the middle over and over .

 

[GolfSpy_BEN]

Just now, Fred Mitchell said:

shorter shaft and I am hitting it longer myself. Might not work but worth a shot especially if you are long anyway giving up a few yards for striping it down the middle over and over .

 

Absolutely! And it is awesome that it is working for you, there is no better feeling in golf than trying something and having it lead to improvement. Well… maybe a center struck blade that nestles tight to a tough pin. That’s a good feeling, too

[chisag]

1 hour ago, Fred Mitchell said:

shorter shaft and I am hitting it longer myself. Might not work but worth a shot especially if you are long anyway giving up a few yards for striping it down the middle over and over .

 

 

... In general adding 1" to your driver can increase your club head speed approximately 1-2mph and produce a potential gain of around 6-10yds. But missing the sweet spot by only 1/4" can lose 5-7 yds of distance. Those being realistic about their swing and contact know if they miss the center by 1" so they are losing 20-28yds. This explains that one bomb they hit and then wonder why they can't do it more often. They think it had something to do with their swing (and of course it does to some degree) but they just hit the sweet spot and gained 25yds. On the LPGA most don't swing all out like many of the men and some marvel at their distance with such a smooth controlled swing. They hit the sweet spot most of the time and produce the max yardage for their swing speed. 

... There is no formula to let you know what length is best for you. The one truth is stock driver shafts are too long for the majority of players. Unless you have done some extensive personal testing using launch monitors during multiple sessions and found a 46" driver is the best length for you, most will find something in the 44.5 to 45.5 range to work best and I could make the argument starting at 45" is a realistic starting point. In the end it is pretty simple, shaft length doesn't matter anywhere near as much as sweet spot contact. Find the driver length that produces your best contact pattern and you will have a driver that produces your longest drives. 

[Fred Mitchell]

1 hour ago, chisag said:

 

... In general adding 1" to your driver can increase your club head speed approximately 1-2mph and produce a potential gain of around 6-10yds. But missing the sweet spot by only 1/4" can lose 5-7 yds of distance. Those being realistic about their swing and contact know if they miss the center by 1" so they are losing 20-28yds. This explains that one bomb they hit and then wonder why they can't do it more often. They think it had something to do with their swing (and of course it does to some degree) but they just hit the sweet spot and gained 25yds. On the LPGA most don't swing all out like many of the men and some marvel at their distance with such a smooth controlled swing. They hit the sweet spot most of the time and produce the max yardage for their swing speed. 

... There is no formula to let you know what length is best for you. The one truth is stock driver shafts are too long for the majority of players. Unless you have done some extensive personal testing using launch monitors during multiple sessions and found a 46" driver is the best length for you, most will find something in the 44.5 to 45.5 range to work best and I could make the argument starting at 45" is a realistic starting point. In the end it is pretty simple, shaft length doesn't matter anywhere near as much as sweet spot contact. Find the driver length that produces your best contact pattern and you will have a driver that produces your longest drives. 

On paper yes but gaining so much control im now going in a straight line and confidence is so high I am blasting the ball instead of being hesitant and trying to steer the ball so in my case for me shorter shaft is longer. But comma in theory everything else being equal yes the longer the shaft the more ball speed . I think they call it law of diminishing returns or something like that.

[chisag]

7 minutes ago, Fred Mitchell said:

On paper yes but gaining so much control im now going in a straight line and confidence is so high I am blasting the ball instead of being hesitant and trying to steer the ball so in my case for me shorter shaft is longer. But comma in theory everything else being equal yes the longer the shaft the more ball speed . I think they call it law of diminishing returns or something like that.

 

... I am a big fan of a shorter driver shaft length for the reason you describe. Better contact, straighter drives and for most longer average drives. For more than a few, even their longest drives. It is a rare player that can hit a longer shaft with equal consistency as a shorter length. Obviously loft plays a part but this is the reason most everyone hits a wedge better than a 5 iron. But if everyone had the same shaft and head but one was 45" and the other 46" They would be amazed at the contact pattern on the face and how much better it is at 45" compared to 46". 

[Fred Mitchell]

3 minutes ago, chisag said:

 

... I am a big fan of a shorter driver shaft length for the reason you describe. Better contact, straighter drives and for most longer average drives. For more than a few, even their longest drives. It is a rare player that can hit a longer shaft with equal consistency as a shorter length. Obviously loft plays a part but this is the reason most everyone hits a wedge better than a 5 iron. But if everyone had the same shaft and head but one was 45" and the other 46" They would be amazed at the contact pattern on the face and how much better it is at 45" compared to 46". 

I doubt I will ever even try a full length shaft again unless its whats in a store new. Once I own it it will come down 1 inch minimum.

[cksurfdude]

8 hours ago, chisag said:

shaft length doesn't matter anywhere near as much as sweet spot contact

..we still talking about golf here??

haha but add me to the shorter than "standard" @ 45" driver

Agree with everything Mr Chisag stated - imho part and parcel of supporting their +NN yards marketing claims each and every season, "standard" lengths are being stretched by +¼" every year to enable more distance in their lab testing....

But, obviously, YMMV and each golfer needs to test and test until they find what works best for them.

[Josh Parker]

I play 44 or 44.25. 

[GolfSpy_BEN]

Range session today to get some numbers on the Paradym TD. Initial impressions are positive, as this felt like one of my better days hitting a driver at the range. From a consistency standpoint, the numbers bear that out. May still be a little short on distance, but it was 45 degrees and range balls have something to do with that.

Dispersion

Shot Shape

Numbers

The average smash factor was 1.46 and average launch angle was 10.2, so the work continues on improving those (and really all) metrics. 
 

Small samples and early returns, but I really like what I’ve seen out of this Paradym TD head. In the next few days, I have a Callaway adapter to put on the  Ventus shaft, so that we can go down that rabbit hole as well. Stay tuned

[Josh Parker]

1 hour ago, Ben Joest said:

Range session today to get some numbers on the Paradym TD. Initial impressions are positive, as this felt like one of my better days hitting a driver at the range. From a consistency standpoint, the numbers bear that out. May still be a little short on distance, but it was 45 degrees and range balls have something to do with that.

Dispersion

Shot Shape

Numbers

The average smash factor was 1.46 and average launch angle was 10.2, so the work continues on improving those (and really all) metrics. 
 

Small samples and early returns, but I really like what I’ve seen out of this Paradym TD head. In the next few days, I have a Callaway adapter to put on the  Ventus shaft, so that we can go down that rabbit hole as well. Stay tuned

Looking like a more consistent flight.

[GolfSpy_BEN]

Latest Range session with the Paradym. Alternated the Kai Li with the Ventus about half way through. Still fully acclimating, but the feel of the TD head with the Ventus shaft has real potential. 

 

an improvement of 6 yards of carry and 10 yards of total distance over the previous session. For the purposes of this thread, my goals are shifting to a tighter dispersion and averaging 260 carry. Both are attainable, so the work continues…

[Josh Parker]

@Ben Joest I would say those goals are perfectly attainable.