DataGolf vs. OWGR??

[fixyurdivot]

Interesting discussions on this question testerday on The Golf Channel.  It sounds like many of the players on various tours think OWGR is no longer representative or accurate.  Several interviewed feel the decsion not to award LIV Golf points has pretty much rendered OWGR useless.  Ultimately not having many of the LIV players not playing against the PGAT fields, particularly in majors, lessens the acheivement of winning.  Do you think DataGolf is better?

 

[Preeway]

I think points awarded to PGAT events are higher than they probably should be compared to other tours and does present a bias to players playing in the states. I don't think LIV getting zero points makes the OWGR obsolete or irrelevant. LIV has had a chance to get their poop in a group but instead chose to demands. It's really sad we are still in this quandary two years later. The politics need to go away and leadership of all the tours need to figure it out. I really don't know how to rate LIV events given their unique structure. Is it fair to give them even 1/4 of the points per event that a regular PGAT event gets if all the players are guaranteed entry each event and nobody has to worry about getting cut before the finish? I genuinely don't know how to rate LIV players other than to say they are currently under rated based on their current standings.

[cnosil]

[GolfSpy MPR]

At this point, we have to compare it to the chaos of college football ranking. College football rankings exist, instead of mere standings, because not everyone plays everyone else.

We can have a long debate about which ranking system is best (subjective power rankings, coaches' poll, writers' poll, computer rankings), but there's only one ranking list that matters. That's where we are with the OWGR right now.

I tend to side with the OWGR is not giving points to LIV: the closed-shop argument matters, and to a lesser degree, the three-round tournaments. But anyone looking for some way to list the current best professional golfers in the world has to look in other places, whether that be DataGolf or TUGR or something else.

I think I'm in favor of (if a peace treaty of some sort isn't signed) the majors reserving maybe 5 spots for LIV golfers, and allowing LIV itself to determine the formula for which of their golfers qualifies.

[Preeway]

12 minutes ago, GolfSpy MPR said:

I think I'm in favor of (if a peace treaty of some sort isn't signed) the majors reserving maybe 5 spots for LIV golfers, and allowing LIV itself to determine the formula for which of their golfers qualifies.

100% this. There definitely should be a way for LIV players to qualify and I think the more this infantile feud exists and I think the majors will do that, except the PGA Championship perhaps, to ensure they get the best field possible.

[ShimmyCocoBop]

No matter which system of determining world rankings for players is adopted, someone will have a pea in their mattress and feel slighted.

Calling Mark Broadie... Calling Mark Broadie...

[Josh Parker]

Do I think these guys should get a chance at majors.... probably

Do I think they are a bunch of overpaid babies at this point.... YES  They chose to chase the money and while I don't care that they did that, they also knew that all these items were off the table.  Don't sign for millions of dollars and then say it's not fair.  The entitlement is unreal these days and I have gotten to the point of not even wanting to watch the game anymore.  At least not the men.  

My personal opinion is that they have been told that they need to have a way for additional players to be able to play and relegations.  They have been told that they could figure out a way to make points for the 54 hole tourneys and even the no cuts but Norman refuses to bend whatsoever and his players should be looking at him instead of blaming everyone else.  

[BringerofRain]

38 minutes ago, GolfSpy MPR said:

At this point, we have to compare it to the chaos of college football ranking. College football rankings exist, instead of mere standings, because not everyone plays everyone else.

We can have a long debate about which ranking system is best (subjective power rankings, coaches' poll, writers' poll, computer rankings), but there's only one ranking list that matters. That's where we are with the OWGR right now.

I tend to side with the OWGR is not giving points to LIV: the closed-shop argument matters, and to a lesser degree, the three-round tournaments. But anyone looking for some way to list the current best professional golfers in the world has to look in other places, whether that be DataGolf or TUGR or something else.

I think I'm in favor of (if a peace treaty of some sort isn't signed) the majors reserving maybe 5 spots for LIV golfers, and allowing LIV itself to determine the formula for which of their golfers qualifies.

My initial reaction is this was Just like old college football. The point system is probably outdated especially now. It would be awesome if the majors got a college football board together and they discussed and announced a few weeks earlier who would be in the majors. Then we can have the Florida State debate who got in or like the  JT on the Ryder cup team debate. Not a very practical  decision but it would be fun. 

[BringerofRain]

18 minutes ago, Josh Parker said:

Do I think these guys should get a chance at majors.... probably

Do I think they are a bunch of overpaid babies at this point.... YES  They chose to chase the money and while I don't care that they did that, they also knew that all these items were off the table.  Don't sign for millions of dollars and then say it's not fair.  The entitlement is unreal these days and I have gotten to the point of not even wanting to watch the game anymore.  At least not the men.  

My personal opinion is that they have been told that they need to have a way for additional players to be able to play and relegations.  They have been told that they could figure out a way to make points for the 54 hole tourneys and even the no cuts but Norman refuses to bend whatsoever and his players should be looking at him instead of blaming everyone else.  

When LIV first came out my buddy had the best perspective. He said who gives a F. I’ll just go buy a green jacket. 

[RickyBobby_PR]

It’s pretty simple, liv chose to use a format that doesn’t meet the criteria the 28 tours or whatever the number is that falls under the OWGR system uses.

They were told the reason and rather than fix it they said nope we will just do our thing.

Then more players left PGA tour knowing that they were going to drop in the rankings. They want their cake and eat it too.

The OWGR is just fine as it is. 
 

As for the majors the Masters invites foreign players. There are two opens that anyone meeting the handicap requirement can try to qualify for.

The PGA has its criteria. 
 

If golfers don’t like their owgr rankings they should look in the mirror and find the problem. Personal responsibility is the issue not the system. 

[BringerofRain]

1 minute ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

It’s pretty simple, liv chose to use a format that doesn’t meet the criteria the 28 tours or whatever the number is that falls under the OWGR system uses.

They were told the reason and rather than fix it they said nope we will just do our thing.

Then more players left PGA tour knowing that they were going to drop in the rankings. They want their cake and eat it too.

The OWGR is just fine as it is. 
 

As for the majors the Masters invites foreign players. There are two opens that anyone meeting the handicap requirement can try to qualify for.

The PGA has its criteria. 
 

If golfers don’t like their owgr rankings they should look in the mirror and find the problem. Personal responsibility is the issue not the system. 

I think the real question is should the OWGR be a neutral ranking system of the top players in the world or a qualification system to get into certain tournaments. In my opinion that seems to be the major disconnect. They should just change the name to Major Golf rankings or even better what if every major had their own rankings. What a fun debate that would be who gets in and who doesn’t. 

 

[RickyBobby_PR]

4 minutes ago, BringerofRain said:

I think the real question is should the OWGR be a neutral ranking system of the top players in the world or a qualification system to get into certain tournaments. In my opinion that seems to be the major disconnect. They should just change the name to Major Golf rankings or even better what if every major had their own rankings. What a fun debate that would be who gets in and who doesn’t. 

 

Well its a rankling system to rank golfers that fall under tours that applied and accepted the rules the OWGR set forth.

It’s up to the tours and/or events to determine what criteria is used for qualifying. That for almost all include using a ranking system. Majors and PGA Tour/DP world tour use owgr to determine most spots. There are other criteria like career money list, exemptions for medical, sponsor and other tour level exemptions that fill out a field. There are qualifiers for Opens, Monday qualifiers for many tour events.

It’s not about major rankings though. It’s used for pga tour events as well. 
 

As mentioned the majors have multiple criteria to join. Past winners exemption, recent win on tour even if outside of the top 50 or whatever the cutoff point is, qualifiers, special invites like for the masters.

The problem with using a “Majors ranking” is you have liv playing a different format and styl of golf than the rest of the tours. How do you rank all the tours including liv so that it’s equal across the board.

The problem is that Norman lied to the players who jumped early and they got played about rankings and being able to play LIV and PGA/DP tours. The guys that jumped later knew what they were getting into and still chose the paycheck over rankings/opportunities

It’s the players fault not the ranking system or the majors fault. 

[Mr_BogeyPro]

I love LIV golf, but one issue I have is the three days of competitive golf. By moving to four days, you can compare the best golfers in the world. 

LIV can still keep the 14 or so tournaments (maybe include a form of a major) and keep the format of shotgun starts, music, shorts, et cetera, but a 4-day event would help the cause.

I think the PGA is missing the opportunity to invite the LIV players to compete in its events, especially the majors.

[hoppman]

They took the money, Norman lied about what they would have access to, I have no sympathy for Liv, they made their bed of money, they are comfortable sleeping in it. I prefer watching the players on the PGA tour, the young huys are exciting. Liv will have a problem as their old players get older without an infusion of young talent.

[Dallan33]

What I find interesting is that before LIV there was minimal talk about OWGR. It was setup for a criteria. The fact that a group splintered into something new knowing isn't the fault of the OWGR. Those who took the money and went to another tour was a decision that was made by them. They shouldn't be exempt from the consequences that come from that decision. Whether that is that they can't play in other tours, or they don't qualify for majors, or that some fans see them as sellouts (or whatever word you want to use), they can't escape the consequence of their actions and that happens to be OWGR.

 

[BringerofRain]

2 minutes ago, Dave Allan said:

What I find interesting is that before LIV there was minimal talk about OWGR. It was setup for a criteria. The fact that a group splintered into something new knowing isn't the fault of the OWGR. Those who took the money and went to another tour was a decision that was made by them. They shouldn't be exempt from the consequences that come from that decision. Whether that is that they can't play in other tours, or they don't qualify for majors, or that some fans see them as sellouts (or whatever word you want to use), they can't escape the consequence of their actions and that happens to be OWGR.

 

I have no arguments they took the money and if the majors want to exclude they have their rights to do so but they also means they have the right to include them if they want hence Nieman getting into two majors. 
 

From strictly a business perspective I would think they would want the rivalry to drive TV interest and that Money.  

[RickyBobby_PR]

41 minutes ago, BringerofRain said:

I have no arguments they took the money and if the majors want to exclude they have their rights to do so but they also means they have the right to include them if they want hence Nieman getting into two majors. 
 

From strictly a business perspective I would think they would want the rivalry to drive TV interest and that Money.  

Golf is an individual sport, rivalry doesn’t drive ratings. Most of the guys have made up anyways after the split and once the tournament starts each person is focused on their game. Plus the number of times “rivals” would be in the same group is low so it’s not even a head to head battle

 

[BringerofRain]

34 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Golf is an individual sport, rivalry doesn’t drive ratings. Most of the guys have made up anyways after the split and once the tournament starts each person is focused on their game. Plus the number of times “rivals” would be in the same group is low so it’s not even a head to head battle

 

I respectfully disagree. I believe  Rivalries drive all sports including individual    sports. Just a few years ago the golf world was infatuated with the brooks / Bryson rivalry. 
 

I am personally more Interested in the majors this year because we don’t get to see these guys compete together on a week to week basis. 

 

 

 

 

 

[skeough20]

I think LIV should get World ranking points but at 35-40% of the PGA Tour. Some of the tours that do get World ranking points are only 3 rounds, not 4. The name is The WORLD ranking points. The object is to identify the best golfers in The world. At this moment, it doesn't. That's The bottom line. You have Rahm, Koepka, DJ, Niewmann, Taylor Gooch, Louie O, Cam Smith, Reed and a few others that were always within the top 50 or at max the top 100. Now some of them are in The 200s and lower. Did they suddenly become lousy golfers? NO they didn't. As the name say it's a World Ranking system. Well in actual fact, It isn't a world ranking system anymore. It needs to change. I would love to see them all on one tour again but even the majors aren't getting the best players anymore. They are getting the majority of them but not all. It looks like the Masters and the PGA Championships have figured that out and have, at least, one golfer who doesn't qualify through World Ranking points. There is a solution but to do it, the World ranking system must rank all golfers, not just ones that have a major influence on the board, the PGA Tour. Golf is forever changing, The rules are updated every 4 years, The equipment we use keeps changing, The clothes we were on The course changes by evident that we no longer have to play wearing a suit. SO the time has come for the World ranking system to rank The world. I did not watch LIV but since LIV started, I'm not really interested in watching the PGA Tour either. 

[Preeway]

1 hour ago, skeough20 said:

I think LIV should get World ranking points but at 35-40% of the PGA Tour. Some of the tours that do get World ranking points are only 3 rounds, not 4. The name is The WORLD ranking points. The object is to identify the best golfers in The world. At this moment, it doesn't. That's The bottom line. You have Rahm, Koepka, DJ, Niewmann, Taylor Gooch, Louie O, Cam Smith, Reed and a few others that were always within the top 50 or at max the top 100. Now some of them are in The 200s and lower. Did they suddenly become lousy golfers? NO they didn't. As the name say it's a World Ranking system. Well in actual fact, It isn't a world ranking system anymore. It needs to change. I would love to see them all on one tour again but even the majors aren't getting the best players anymore. They are getting the majority of them but not all. It looks like the Masters and the PGA Championships have figured that out and have, at least, one golfer who doesn't qualify through World Ranking points. There is a solution but to do it, the World ranking system must rank all golfers, not just ones that have a major influence on the board, the PGA Tour. Golf is forever changing, The rules are updated every 4 years, The equipment we use keeps changing, The clothes we were on The course changes by evident that we no longer have to play wearing a suit. SO the time has come for the World ranking system to rank The world. I did not watch LIV but since LIV started, I'm not really interested in watching the PGA Tour either. 

The OWGR doesn’t rank every tour in the world there are other tours besides LIV that don’t qualify as well. The three rounds isn’t the barrier. It’s the closed nature of the tour and the lack of cuts/relegation. If a player wants to be ranked, they need to play on a qualified tour. The OWGR is still playing politics with this to a degree but the blame does lie more with LIV than it does OWGR. 

[GolfSpy_APH]

6 hours ago, fixyurdivot said:

Interesting discussions on this question testerday on The Golf Channel.  It sounds like many of the players on various tours think OWGR is no longer representative or accurate.  Several interviewed feel the decsion not to award LIV Golf points has pretty much rendered OWGR useless.  Ultimately not having many of the LIV players not playing against the PGAT fields, particularly in majors, lessens the acheivement of winning.  Do you think DataGolf is better?

 

It is only relevant for the Majors and even those are making exceptions. Bottom line nothing is going to be perfect till the professional golfing world sorts itself out... if it ever does. 

[jolter1]

I am of the belief that there is still a pi$$ing match between Monohan and PIF/LIV. The OWR could have come up with a formula that would have satisfied all parties involved. The PGA of America took the first sensible step in special invites to their major. If Augusta National finds a way to invite LIV then I can see the USGA and R&A somewhere also providing routes into their championships. LIV players for the most part really are not interested in playing PGATour or DPWT events, even though both tours would benefit from appearances by LIV players. 

[skeough20]

Well said. The OWGR could make it work IF they wanted to. I'm glad the PGA Championship & The Masters have invited at least one person. I believe that the US Open & The Open could do the same but with that said, the LIV golfers could try to qualify through The qualifying tournaments so there is an avenue for them to play those two majors. I don't think they should have to qualify if they're good enough.  Dust Johnson is now #247 in the world. If anyone golf fan thinks that there are 246 better golfers in the world, I think they're nuts. There is no way that DJ is the 247th best golfer in The world. THat's crazy. Unfortunately the World ranking aren't ranking everyone so the system is flawed or change the name to Ranking of some golfers.

[RickyBobby_PR]

37 minutes ago, skeough20 said:

Well said. The OWGR could make it work IF they wanted to. I'm glad the PGA Championship & The Masters have invited at least one person. I believe that the US Open & The Open could do the same but with that said, the LIV golfers could try to qualify through The qualifying tournaments so there is an avenue for them to play those two majors. I don't think they should have to qualify if they're good enough.  Dust Johnson is now #247 in the world. If anyone golf fan thinks that there are 246 better golfers in the world, I think they're nuts. There is no way that DJ is the 247th best golfer in The world. THat's crazy. Unfortunately the World ranking aren't ranking everyone so the system is flawed or change the name to Ranking of some golfers.

The OWGR is ranking those who play in tournaments that fall under the OWGR system. That’s all they have to rank.

DJ chose to play on a tour that doesn’t have ranking points as did all the rest who are complaining especially the recent jumpers who knew what the situation was.

They have to sleep in the bed they made and can’t have their cake and eat it too.

The OWGR told LIV what they had to do to get approval and LIV said no thanks. Putting the blame anywhere but on LIV and their decision to not accept the OWGR and the players especially the recent ones to sign knowing they were going to lose points is putting the blame in the wrong place. It’s squarely on everyone at LIV from the top down 

[KingSlender]

21 hours ago, GolfSpy MPR said:

At this point, we have to compare it to the chaos of college football ranking. College football rankings exist, instead of mere standings, because not everyone plays everyone else.

We can have a long debate about which ranking system is best (subjective power rankings, coaches' poll, writers' poll, computer rankings), but there's only one ranking list that matters. That's where we are with the OWGR right now.

I tend to side with the OWGR is not giving points to LIV: the closed-shop argument matters, and to a lesser degree, the three-round tournaments. But anyone looking for some way to list the current best professional golfers in the world has to look in other places, whether that be DataGolf or TUGR or something else.

I think I'm in favor of (if a peace treaty of some sort isn't signed) the majors reserving maybe 5 spots for LIV golfers, and allowing LIV itself to determine the formula for which of their golfers qualifies.

Looking at the methodologies, I'm a big fan of the TUGR system.  This may not make sense to everyone, but there is a mathematical elegance to it similar to the way Bitcoin operates.

The rankings between TUGR and Data Golf are similar, but where I think Data Golf misses the mark from a rankings system is that it is just a strokes gained metric whereas TUGR is a comparison of head to head performance between golfers.  

Strokes gained is great for letting us know who is the best driver, putter, wedge player, etc. but using it as a ranking system doesn't get to the heart of the matter.  I see the three systems answering three different questions:

• OWGR: "Which golfer does best under our criteria for rankable tournaments?" 
• Data Golf: "Who is the most technically proficient golfer?" 
• TUGR: "Which golfer is likely to be the best on any given day?"

I'd be fine if they settle on Data Golf, but I think TUGR is the superior system because it incorporates every round under every condition and does not rely on things like ShotLink to make it work.

[jolter1]

1 hour ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

The OWGR is ranking those who play in tournaments that fall under the OWGR system. That’s all they have to rank.

DJ chose to play on a tour that doesn’t have ranking points as did all the rest who are complaining especially the recent jumpers who knew what the situation was.

They have to sleep in the bed they made and can’t have their cake and eat it too.

The OWGR told LIV what they had to do to get approval and LIV said no thanks. Putting the blame anywhere but on LIV and their decision to not accept the OWGR and the players especially the recent ones to sign knowing they were going to lose points is putting the blame in the wrong place. It’s squarely on everyone at LIV from the top down 

The LIV players are not complaining about what bed they made but how ranking points are awarded. If the OWGR can afford to give points to Tiger's Hero World Tournament of 18 players and no cuts, basically a laugh and giggle event, then a mathematical formula could have been afforded to LIV tournaments for entry into the majors. 

[LeakyValve]

Since LIV's creating and the issues with the rankings I've always felt like they (LIV) should get something even if it's adjusted. 

 

PGA events should be weighted based on the tournament itself (Feild strength based on the number of current high ranking golfers). I think this could flow into the DP Tour as well. Since some of the PGA guys go play events over there. As for LIV I think it's tough since the fields all stay the same, but they're playing less golf. Maybe if rank points for LIV had a standard value and that value is increased based on the importance of an event they could get more. 

 

At the end of the day I do want to see the best players playing in marquee events. Majors or not. Maybe making those events qualifying based? Need to be a previous winner or be invited based on current performance or on a sponsors exemption? 

[RickyBobby_PR]

19 minutes ago, jolter1 said:

The LIV players are not complaining about what bed they made but how ranking points are awarded. If the OWGR can afford to give points to Tiger's Hero World Tournament of 18 players and no cuts, basically a laugh and giggle event, then a mathematical formula could have been afforded to LIV tournaments for entry into the majors. 

The OWGR gave LIV the criteria for how to get points.

The OWGR isn’t going to say okay this 1 or 2 events on your tour get points but the rest don’t. That would be like saying that only certain events on the PGA tour get points and other don’t.

The Hero is a non PGA tour sanctioned event so they had to apply just like LIV did.

The LIV golfers like Niemann who left after all the decisions were made knew what they were getting into. They are having to lie in the bed they made. 
 

The ones who left in the beginning were either naive and too trusting of Norman and him saying they won’t be suspended or they just didn’t care. They played chicken with the tour and basically lost. 
 

 

[ShimmyCocoBop]

21 hours ago, hoppman said:

They took the money, Norman lied about what they would have access to, I have no sympathy for Liv, they made their bed of money, they are comfortable sleeping in it. I prefer watching the players on the PGA tour, the young huys are exciting. Liv will have a problem as their old players get older without an infusion of young talent.

 

[Preeway]

2 hours ago, jolter1 said:

The LIV players are not complaining about what bed they made but how ranking points are awarded. If the OWGR can afford to give points to Tiger's Hero World Tournament of 18 players and no cuts, basically a laugh and giggle event, then a mathematical formula could have been afforded to LIV tournaments for entry into the majors. 

OWGR doesn't award points to events in isolation. They award points to all events played in a tour that qualifies to receive points. So, all events on the PGAT and DPWT receive points. None of the events on LIV get points because the LIV tour isn't qualified. We can debate the merits of whether LIV as a tour should or shouldn't qualify but it doesn't change the fact that the reason the Hero Challenge event gets points is because it is considered part of the PGAT. Same reason all the events on the Asian tour get points as well and why we are seeing some of the LIV players playing there in an effort to qualify for majors.