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LeftyRM7

Shot tracking a 20 handicap

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13 minutes ago, GregB135 said:

Here's another course strategy idea I heard from a PGA Tour coach who came to our military base course in North Dakota (during the winter even) to give a seminar. He said the strategy for mid to high handicappers (to him that was 15+) was NEVER aim for the pin on the approach shot. The target for those golfers should ALWAYS be the center of the green.

This is good advice for 5-handicappers too, at least until you get inside short-iron range.  You want the bulk of your misses to be on the green, if you can.  If you start aiming at tucked pins, you don't have to miss by much to be off the green.  Most of us are much better off  60 feet away and putting (10 yard pull after aiming at the middle of the green) than 30 feet and chipping (10 yard push, aiming at the flag).  Say you get up and down 30% of the time, pretty decent for an "average" golfer, so 70% you'd take 3  strokes when chipping.  Will you 3-putt 70% of the time?

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Next time I play, hopefully Sunday, I’ll test the center green theory. I understand the thought process but its kind of comparing apples to oranges, isn’t it? Lots of assumptions but I’m always up for a good test to get more information.

Golf is such a dynamic game and their are so many variables. I have a hard time getting myself to buy into these systems/strategies that people are always pushing. That’s why mine is so basic. I have a hard time getting myself to do something I feel is going to get me in trouble and cost me strokes. Admittedly stubborn and I really have to see something to believe it, always a skeptic.


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1 hour ago, LeftyRM7 said:

Next time I play, hopefully Sunday, I’ll test the center green theory. I understand the thought process but its kind of comparing apples to oranges, isn’t it? Lots of assumptions but I’m always up for a good test to get more information.

Golf is such a dynamic game and their are so many variables. I have a hard time getting myself to buy into these systems/strategies that people are always pushing. That’s why mine is so basic. I have a hard time getting myself to do something I feel is going to get me in trouble and cost me strokes. Admittedly stubborn and I really have to see something to believe it, always a skeptic.


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I completely get your 'stubbornness'.  I'm a guy that will put my stubbornness up against anyone's!  I beat the hell out my concepts or those of other people.  It is a real struggle for me to be wrong but my game and coaching have greatly improved as I have changed my perspective from nothing works to how can I break/challenge/disprove my beliefs today.  As a result, I have great certainty in what I have chosen to teach in both technique and strategy.  

One of the concepts that greatly helped me was the idea that we can prepare our skills, recognition and responses  to known events or challenges.  Many people want to believe that there is tremendous variability in the game of golf.  Many people believe the same about their careers.  The reality is that most of us in work & sport face the same identifiable challenges with great regularity.  If we can prepare our response and execution we can be much more successful than when we constantly feel like things are different.  If won't go on and on about this topic but I believe that watching pilot videos on Youtube is one of the best examples.  They can fly to a million different places but they face the same set of tasks every time they fly.  How do they handle this?  They have checklists and prepare for each flight like it is the first!  We can play golf the same way as long as we have a reasonable set of skills, create our own check lists (known strategy), and practice our response and execution.  There is a reason why Tiger always looks calm - he has prepared for the very moment and his skills travel the world very well.  Tiger shouldn't be looked at different - he should be seen as the norm!

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13 hours ago, GregB135 said:

He said the strategy for mid to high handicappers (to him that was 15+) was NEVER aim for the pin on the approach shot. The target for those golfers should ALWAYS be the center of the green.

Here are my approach stats:

Screen Shot 2019-12-06 at 11.59.30 PM.png

I'm thinking of adopting the following strategy:

Front pin - Hit one club more than the yardage to the pin.  This should usually be middle of the green with a good shot, pin high if I miss it a little bit.  I should really never miss short.

Middle pin - Hit one club more than the yardage to the pin, unless my normal (not best) shot with that club will put me over the green and in trouble.  I'll be interested to see if I really hit the ball past the hole all that much.

Back pin - Play the yardage to the pin or slightly shorter if I'm between clubs.

I'm a 7 handicap, but my Arccos Approach Handicap is 11.6.  If a quarter of my misses are short, I should be able to do better with better strategy, even if I don't improve my ball strking.

 

 

 

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Here are my approach stats:
497494624_ScreenShot2019-12-06at11_59_30PM.thumb.png.a91e0455acbf806426a1b5aee535d79b.png
I'm thinking of adopting the following strategy:
Front pin - Hit one club more than the yardage to the pin.  This should usually be middle of the green with a good shot, pin high if I miss it a little bit.  I should really never miss short.
Middle pin - Hit one club more than the yardage to the pin, unless my normal (not best) shot with that club will put me over the green and in trouble.  I'll be interested to see if I really hit the ball past the hole all that much.
Back pin - Play the yardage to the pin or slightly shorter if I'm between clubs.
I'm a 7 handicap, but my Arccos Approach Handicap is 11.6.  If a quarter of my misses are short, I should be able to do better with better strategy, even if I don't improve my ball strking.
 
 
 


Even pros struggle with front pin locations. We rarely hit the ball perfectly pure and to what we believe is our distance with each club. What your shot pattern shows is a nice little spread. Move the center of that spread up a few yards and now you aren’t missing so many greens short.


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38 minutes ago, ChasingScratch said:

 


Even pros struggle with front pin locations. We rarely hit the ball perfectly pure and to what we believe is our distance with each club. What your shot pattern shows is a nice little spread. Move the center of that spread up a few yards and now you aren’t missing so many greens short. emoji1363.png


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That's exactly what I'm thinking. If I miss short four times a round and I can change that to two with no improvement in ball striking, that's a win for me. Thanks to OP for getting me thinking about this. 

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11 hours ago, HardcoreLooper said:

Here are my approach stats:

Screen Shot 2019-12-06 at 11.59.30 PM.png

I'm thinking of adopting the following strategy:

Front pin - Hit one club more than the yardage to the pin.  This should usually be middle of the green with a good shot, pin high if I miss it a little bit.  I should really never miss short.

Middle pin - Hit one club more than the yardage to the pin, unless my normal (not best) shot with that club will put me over the green and in trouble.  I'll be interested to see if I really hit the ball past the hole all that much.

Back pin - Play the yardage to the pin or slightly shorter if I'm between clubs.

I'm a 7 handicap, but my Arccos Approach Handicap is 11.6.  If a quarter of my misses are short, I should be able to do better with better strategy, even if I don't improve my ball strking.

 

 

 

Question:  What is this chart showing?  Is this dispersion to specific yardage or results with particular club relative to the target? 

Just my opinion:  Your noted strategy to adopt is all related to the pin rather than the correct target.  Just a possible improvement: 

1. There are three available targets on almost every green - the center, center of the front half, and center of the back half of the green.  

2.  You may target the half of the green that the pin is located.  When I mean target I mean land.  This strategy is relevant for clubs up to 5/6/7 iron depending on your handicap.  Once you need a longer club your only available target is the center of the green. (landing target)

This suggests we need to stop considering the idea of roll out.  I"m only interested in average carry.  

I'd also suggest that your high percentage of approaches being short has more to do with playing/strategy based on poor yardages for your clubs than your strategy.   We are trying to create a shotgun pattern with each club.  If you were sighting in your shot gun and it looked like your above pattern then you have not zeroed it properly.  A rough guess based on my interpretation of this chart is that your average distance should be reduced by about 7 yards.  

The other possibility is that you do not factor in head wind properly. There is a formula that works quite well.  

Hope this helps.  

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7 hours ago, HardcoreLooper said:

That's exactly what I'm thinking. If I miss short four times a round and I can change that to two with no improvement in ball striking, that's a win for me. Thanks to OP for getting me thinking about this. 

 

4 hours ago, edteergolf said:

I'd also suggest that your high percentage of approaches being short has more to do with playing/strategy based on poor yardages for your clubs than your strategy.   We are trying to create a shotgun pattern with each club.  If you were sighting in your shot gun and it looked like your above pattern then you have not zeroed it properly. 

I was thinking the same as @edteergolf.  Most of us, and I'm no exception, tend to have pretty high expectations, and base our shot planning on really optimistic club distances.  Most of us mishit more shots than we "pure", wouldn't it be better to select clubs based on those common slight mishits?  You have the data, does your 7-iron average the same distance in real life as the distance you use in club selection, or is it 5 or 7 yards shorter?  What would happen if you used your real average to select your clubs?  The end result might be the same as using your "ideal" distance and overclubbing, but it would be based on real numbers, instead of compensating for your "illusions".

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I agree, in theory, to the idea of the shotgun pattern on approach shots. Better players absolutely because their dispersion is reasonable. I feel like as a higher handicap, my wider dispersion makes it hard to do so. The balance between guarding against a miss hit and keeping good shots out of trouble becomes harder. But I guess that’s why high handicaps are high handicaps.


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3 hours ago, LeftyRM7 said:

I agree, in theory, to the idea of the shotgun pattern on approach shots. Better players absolutely because their dispersion is reasonable. I feel like as a higher handicap, my wider dispersion makes it hard to do so. The balance between guarding against a miss hit and keeping good shots out of trouble becomes harder. But I guess that’s why high handicaps are high handicaps.
 

Every player has a pattern; some are wider than others.  Your task is to understand that dispersion to help figure out your tendencies and use that pattern to figure out where you should aim. 

It isn't a theory,  it is a solid strategy to playing golf.  

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46 minutes ago, cnosil said:

Every player has a pattern; some are wider than others.  Your task is to understand that dispersion to help figure out your tendencies and use that pattern to figure out where you should aim. 

It isn't a theory,  it is a solid strategy to playing golf.  

Don't open up pandora's box!  Targeting and aim are two completely different tasks.  Targeting is where you want the ball to land.  Aim, alignment, and starting window are an entirely different topic.  Think about the process to zero in a rifle.  Your rifle is pointed in one direction (alignment), your scope places you over your target (aim), and if done correctly, your bullet always launches in a known window and hits your target (where you scope says you are pointed).  

Also, there is nothing to figure out.  Your tendencies are your pattern.  Place 80-85% of your pattern in an area that eliminates bogey and worse and provides pars and birdie opportunities.  

I say theory as sarcasm.  It is a mathematically and scientifically proven strategy based on Shot Link.  You can see the patterns of those who win a bunch, win occasionally, make every cut, or make their money in 5 events out of the year.  The data is available!  Your choice is to doe what everyone thinks should be done or be the outlier who actually improves, plays well, and wins!

Are you willing to think and look different than your friends??

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10 hours ago, edteergolf said:

Question:  What is this chart showing?  Is this dispersion to specific yardage or results with particular club relative to the target? 

This is showing results for all shots between 55 and 210 yards for my last 10 yards.

 

10 hours ago, edteergolf said:

We are trying to create a shotgun pattern with each club.  If you were sighting in your shot gun and it looked like your above pattern then you have not zeroed it properly.

Exactly.  It looks like I aim a little low.

 

10 hours ago, edteergolf said:

A rough guess based on my interpretation of this chart is that your average distance should be reduced by about 7 yards.  

That's what I'm thinking as well.  I use my Arccos "Smart Distance" yardages as a guide, and I think it's too optimistic.  If I go with that Smart Distance - 7 as my "count on" yardage and play that to the third of the green where the hole is, I should reduce my short misses.  26.7% of approaches left short means that I miss almost 4.8 a round short.  Even if I could hit 2 of those 5 greens, I'm probably saving myself at least 1.5 shots/round.

 

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10 hours ago, HardcoreLooper said:

This is showing results for all shots between 55 and 210 yards for my last 10 yards.

 

Exactly.  It looks like I aim a little low.

 

That's what I'm thinking as well.  I use my Arccos "Smart Distance" yardages as a guide, and I think it's too optimistic.  If I go with that Smart Distance - 7 as my "count on" yardage and play that to the third of the green where the hole is, I should reduce my short misses.  26.7% of approaches left short means that I miss almost 4.8 a round short.  Even if I could hit 2 of those 5 greens, I'm probably saving myself at least 1.5 shots/round.

 

Ok.  So we may still be right that you come up short too often but frankly, data on shots between 55-210 yards doesn't tell us very much at all.  I'm sure these services provide data for each club but I don't they provide the data that illuminates how you score.    I think a good statistics service/website/app is the way to go.  They build a relationship between each part of the game and it's influence on your ability to score.  If used correctly, you can determine the parts of your game to exploit and those to avoid and they can help you build a game improvement plan.   I'm a huge fan of ANOVA as it provides a simple view into your game and all the data you could ever want to see.  My players are often amazed at the difference between what is happening and what they think is happening.  "Coach, I really need to work on my three foot putts!"  After looking at their stats for the round they made 9/10 three footers - hardly a problem.  Looking at her round she was 3/10 up and downs with an average proximity of 8'. (8foot equals 50/50 proposition on the PGA Tour).  The real problem was that she only hit eight greens!!  We can't compete as a team when a player hits only 8 greens.  How are you going to make a ton of pars with only hitting 8 greens and how are you going to get to 50% short game conversion when you have to do 8 times.  What a workout!!!  Now, it was no big deal that this was her round she just had a rough day.  She followed the strategy and made great efforts at doing the right things.  The point is that she was positive she had identified the issue with her round but in reality she wasn't even close!! 

Anyway - data is knowledge and knowledge is power.  Everything else is guessing and players just aren't very good at guessing.  

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Well I got a round in today, not one I’m proud of, but I figured a few things out that I can’t wait to get to the range. Anyways, I did the drill on the greens and overall no real surprises. I had a below average day putting with 36 putts. Then 40 putts via the center of the green. The biggest thing I took from it was great putting practice. I suspect that many of the center green putts were influenced by the real putts given that I’d already hit my real putts. Some of them weren’t very different at all. I was more confident in read/speed on the center green putts but some of them were very difficult. Almost all of my real putts were shorter and more were pin high. That being said, it’s all based on the luck of pin locations.

If I was actually hitting greens, the center green putts wouldn’t be bad. Problem being, I give up too many shots tee to green, so my short game carries the load. Much like I’ve said before, I’m hitting chips and pitches short distance so I should be closer to the pin than if I were hitting greens in regulation.

I did notice some trends with my putting related to distance. My lag putting is pretty good. I feel like I have a window of about 6’ - 12’ were I feel confident I’ll get it close. Inside of that I feel more pressure to make it and outside of that sometimes I’m not confident with speed.

Biggest thing I see is that I need to work on my swing and hit better shots tee to green and take the pressure off of my short game. I feel like my confidence putting would be much greater over the same putt if it were for birdie instead of bogey.


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1 hour ago, LeftyRM7 said:

Well I got a round in today, not one I’m proud of, but I figured a few things out that I can’t wait to get to the range. Anyways, I did the drill on the greens and overall no real surprises. I had a below average day putting with 36 putts. Then 40 putts via the center of the green. The biggest thing I took from it was great putting practice. I suspect that many of the center green putts were influenced by the real putts given that I’d already hit my real putts. Some of them weren’t very different at all. I was more confident in read/speed on the center green putts but some of them were very difficult. Almost all of my real putts were shorter and more were pin high. That being said, it’s all based on the luck of pin locations.

If I was actually hitting greens, the center green putts wouldn’t be bad. Problem being, I give up too many shots tee to green, so my short game carries the load. Much like I’ve said before, I’m hitting chips and pitches short distance so I should be closer to the pin than if I were hitting greens in regulation.

I did notice some trends with my putting related to distance. My lag putting is pretty good. I feel like I have a window of about 6’ - 12’ were I feel confident I’ll get it close. Inside of that I feel more pressure to make it and outside of that sometimes I’m not confident with speed.

Biggest thing I see is that I need to work on my swing and hit better shots tee to green and take the pressure off of my short game. I feel like my confidence putting would be much greater over the same putt if it were for birdie instead of bogey.


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Awesome comments!

1. if you hit 18 greens 36 putts would be an average day.  Number of putts is not a good way to qualify your putting.  As a 20 handicap player I'd ask.  Did I make all my three foot putts?  How many three putts did I have inside 30 feet?  (Hopefully zero.)

2. I will never disagree with someone saying I need to get better tee to green to take the pressure off my short game!  FYI - your short game is a scoring tool, not a saving tool!

3.  I want you to develop the skill and confidence to two-putt out to 30 feet as you do 6'-12'.  Speed is the most important.  

4. Proper strategy would place your ball about pin high and within 30' all day.  When you are outside 150 yards the center of the green is your target.  Both strategies will help you reduce the twenty handicap.  

5. The ability to control you golf ball is required to get you down to a 10 handicap.  

Well Done!

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Awesome comments!
1. if you hit 18 greens 36 putts would be an average day.  Number of putts is not a good way to qualify your putting.  As a 20 handicap player I'd ask.  Did I make all my three foot putts?  How many three putts did I have inside 30 feet?  (Hopefully zero.)
2. I will never disagree with someone saying I need to get better tee to green to take the pressure off my short game!  FYI - your short game is a scoring tool, not a saving tool!
3.  I want you to develop the skill and confidence to two-putt out to 30 feet as you do 6'-12'.  Speed is the most important.  
4. Proper strategy would place your ball about pin high and within 30' all day.  When you are outside 150 yards the center of the green is your target.  Both strategies will help you reduce the twenty handicap.  
5. The ability to control you golf ball is required to get you down to a 10 handicap.  
Well Done!


Thank you.

You’d be hard pressed to find many putts longer than 30’ at my home course. Another thing I noticed as I stood center green, small greens, I figure about 3500 sq. ft. average.

I’m going to get fitted for a putter in a few weeks so hopefully I learn more about my putting stroke and what I need there. In the mean time I need to figure out my ball striking.




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On 12/8/2019 at 6:13 PM, LeftyRM7 said:


Biggest thing I see is that I need to work on my swing and hit better shots tee to green and take the pressure off of my short game. I feel like my confidence putting would be much greater over the same putt if it were for birdie instead of bogey.


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So we have come full circle - increasing GIR. 🙂  Mathematically, a hole with a GIR is bogey at worst assuming no 4 putts. The limit on a hole with no GIR is double par or until you hole out. Is this a gross simplification? You bet. Your #1 mission to improve scores has to be increasing GIR.

On my Florida trip last week, I played 15 holes at +5 with 7/15 GIR or 47%. My GIR season average moved from 33 -> 38% from start to end. Later that night it dawned on me I walked off the course with the chance to bogey out for my first ever round in the 70's (a 79 on a par 71). I averaged 1.9-2.0 putts per hole this season, this day the putter got "hot" (others might say the putter got "average" LOL) and I was at 1.7 putts/hole which resulted in 4 birdies. My aimpoint reads were dialled in, I also left 2 putts within 6" short of the hole on the correct line, hit a tee shot OB, and chunked 2 approach shots on a par 5. So by no means do you need to become a perfect ball striker. If you are needing to get up and down for par more than 10 times per round, best of luck.  

This ties back to my original question about how many times per season OP chips in from greenside. Next mathematical simplification: assume 0 birdies without a GIR. Even a poor putter can get hot or luck out on a long putt.

The info on Operation 36 was very interesting. I am div 6 😞  and 1 shot away from div 7 on my home course. Going to suggest this to my wife next time we play. 

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8 hours ago, BMart519 said:

So we have come full circle - increasing GIR. 🙂  Mathematically, a hole with a GIR is bogey at worst assuming no 4 putts. The limit on a hole with no GIR is double par or until you hole out. Is this a gross simplification? You bet. Your #1 mission to improve scores has to be increasing GIR.

On my Florida trip last week, I played 15 holes at +5 with 7/15 GIR or 47%. My GIR season average moved from 33 -> 38% from start to end. Later that night it dawned on me I walked off the course with the chance to bogey out for my first ever round in the 70's (a 79 on a par 71). I averaged 1.9-2.0 putts per hole this season, this day the putter got "hot" (others might say the putter got "average" LOL) and I was at 1.7 putts/hole which resulted in 4 birdies. My aimpoint reads were dialled in, I also left 2 putts within 6" short of the hole on the correct line, hit a tee shot OB, and chunked 2 approach shots on a par 5. So by no means do you need to become a perfect ball striker. If you are needing to get up and down for par more than 10 times per round, best of luck.  

This ties back to my original question about how many times per season OP chips in from greenside. Next mathematical simplification: assume 0 birdies without a GIR. Even a poor putter can get hot or luck out on a long putt.

The info on Operation 36 was very interesting. I am div 6 😞  and 1 shot away from div 7 on my home course. Going to suggest this to my wife next time we play. 

I sit on my sofa with tears streaming down my face!!  It isn't a simple over simplification at all!  You have created your strategy to win.  

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So we have come full circle - increasing GIR.   Mathematically, a hole with a GIR is bogey at worst assuming no 4 putts. The limit on a hole with no GIR is double par or until you hole out. Is this a gross simplification? You bet. Your #1 mission to improve scores has to be increasing GIR.


Not quite. GIR is the furthest thing from my mind. Again, I get it for better players it is a trend for better scoring, not disputing that. GIR is a byproduct of hitting better shots, not a realistic strategy for me. Think of it this way, would you tell a 20 handicap they need to make more birdies to offset the doubles/triples and score better? Absolutely not, but in a roundabout way, that’s what you’re saying. Hitting greens and giving yourself a chance with the putter...sounds like birdies to me. Kind of putting the cart before the horse.

90 is my best score, so that’s my goal, get there consistently. By the numbers, I don’t have to hit a single green to get there without putting pressure on my short game. Decent tee shot, reasonable approach close to the green, chip it onto the green and 2 putt. Simple and realistic for my handicap. Then with my putting average(1.7) and up/down percentage(31%) that could take me down to mid 80s on a good day. That would be overall 10 strokes better than where I’m at now.

I guess what I’m saying is it’s more about limiting mistakes, especially triples, and being more consistent, and the rest of it will come in time.


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44 minutes ago, LeftyRM7 said:

Not quite. GIR is the furthest thing from my mind. Again, I get it for better players it is a trend for better scoring, not disputing that. GIR is a byproduct of hitting better shots, not a realistic strategy for me. Think of it this way, would you tell a 20 handicap they need to make more birdies to offset the doubles/triples and score better? Absolutely not, but in a roundabout way, that’s what you’re saying. Hitting greens and giving yourself a chance with the putter...sounds like birdies to me. Kind of putting the cart before the horse.

90 is my best score, so that’s my goal, get there consistently. By the numbers, I don’t have to hit a single green to get there without putting pressure on my short game. Decent tee shot, reasonable approach close to the green, chip it onto the green and 2 putt. Simple and realistic for my handicap. Then with my putting average(1.7) and up/down percentage(31%) that could take me down to mid 80s on a good day. That would be overall 10 strokes better than where I’m at now.

I guess what I’m saying is it’s more about limiting mistakes, especially triples, and being more consistent, and the rest of it will come in time.

 

I agree, at least to this extent, improved GIR is an end result of hitting more good shots, and fewer poor ones.  Limiting mistakes, limiting triples, being more consistent, all are the result of improving your full swing game.  The strategy for improving scoring in general is to improve the full swing.  GIR is a goal, not a strategy.

I tend not to think of a strategy for play in general, or even for a hole, I prefer to have a strategy for each individual shot, there are too many variables to plan any further ahead.  The strategy for playing a single shot should be to get the ball as close to the hole as you can, without taking on too much risk.  You could hit putter from the tee with zero risk in most situations, but that's no way to score.  Each club longer might add a little risk.  The trick is to understand your game, and the golf course, well enough to be able to evaluate when the risk of hitting it closer becomes too great.

The problem with your strategy, "Decent tee shot, reasonable approach close to the green, chip it onto the green and 2 putt", is that there will be times where you fail to execute your desired shot.  That's why you should strive to make your NEXT shot easier by getting the ball closer to the green on THIS shot whenever possible.  As long as it stays in play, a mishit driver will probably leave a shorter shot than a mishit hybrid from the same spot.  

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