New Irons = Wedge Gapping Issues

[korsmot]

I am big fan of addressing your long clubs to address your wedges.  The 14 club limit is obviously the issue.  I agree with all the contribuitors that say ignore the "P" on top and just look at how far you hit it.  If you called it a 9 iron in your old set and now it says PW, that is just street cred.  "Strong like bull".

I am a fan of 5 wedges since they have gone to the jacked lofts in irons sets.  PW (44), AW (48), GW (52), SW (56), LW (60).  This was close to the same as older sets, it was just called 9, PW, GW, SW, LW. So, look at your 200+ yard clubs and see where you can consolidate to keep your wedges in the bag (aka the scoring clubs).  I promise, you are not hitting these 200 yard clubs more than a couple of times a round each and with not great success for GIR.  But keep a little data on club usage and distance and really think about the clubs you use and would it have made a huge difference 

With the new data coming out that most people's 3W are not much more accurate than driver.  The thought now is you should only NOT hit driver if you want to stay short of a hazard (laying up).  And if so, does it matter if you hit your layup club 245 or 225?   (3W or 5W) 

Since 54 is your top wedge, I would say your set makeup should be 44, 48, 52, 56.  Wedges are easier to bend as well to make stronger or weaker as you need them.

Go out and hit your PW and your lowest iron and see what yardages you are covering for those and then fill out from the center.  (the assumption is that the other irons in the set have a resonable gapping already since the specs should be the same.  

Distance is great but eventually it makes you change your game.  I have a friend that hits 60 LW (110), massive power.  He has to start to finness things much sooner than I do. I am Hitting LW 80 yards.  That is all fine if you spend lots of time working on 3/4 and 1/2 wedges and flighting things down, spin, etc.   How many people do you know that go practice that with any regularity?  Not many.  

So think about shots you want to hit, how many times around you normally hit them and base your set on those.  

Cheers

Tigger

[JeffK]

15 hours ago, VincentB said:

I am a 12 handicap, but I hit the ball a long way off the tee.  I get left with plenty of 80 to 140 yard shots into the pin.  For me, that is pitching wedge through sand wedge.  That's a lot of ground to cover with three clubs.  I might be leaning towards adding that 4th wedge.

That's a pretty big gap to cover with 3 wedges.  I like to hit full shots into greens so I'd rather be wedge heavy than top heavy. My approx. distances are:

60 deg 75 m / 82 y

54 deg 85 m / 93 y

50 deg 95 m / 104 y

GW 105 m / 115 y

PW 117 m / 128 y

I'm playing off 10 at the moment but my downfall is concentration. I like my gaping because i can generally go for the pin. Sometimes I will be a bit long, sometimes short, but I should be putting most of the time, except for the bad mises I have a few time a game.

 

[VincentB]

On 1/22/2023 at 10:43 AM, Franc38 said:

There's obviously more "visual difference" between these and Vokeys for ex, than between MP221 and specialized wedges, but that shouldn't be massively offensive.

 

However, I think the solution for you isn't in equipment but in more "focused practice".

 

 

Practice?  We talkin about practice?  I'm getting a lesson in the obvious with everyone on this thread and I love it.  You guys don't miss a thing.  I need to practice and the summer is when I have more time.   Currently, I work 55 hours M - F and my back will only allow me to either practice or play on the weekend.  Right now I'm choosing to play, so I'm looking for more of a plug and play option.  However, if I had the practice time, I would definitely work on making my PW as flexible as my SW.  Let me ask you a question.  Do you find it easier to manipulate a wedge from your iron set vs a specialty wedge?  I'm using the Callaway Mack Daddy wedge and I love that thing.  I can play so many different shots and I am very confident with that club. I definitely don't feel like I can do the same with my PW.  Is that mental or is the larger footprint more challenging to manipulate (open up, hood, flop shot, etc...)?

[VincentB]

On 1/22/2023 at 10:58 AM, Beakbryce said:

BTW, what do you hit less than 80? I am guessing that there are a number of partial shots around the green that an additional wedge can help cover.

I'm not gonna lie.  I really like my Callaway Mack Daddy 54* wedge.  It's the first club I grab when I'm inside 100 yards.  I pitch, chip, flop, sand, bump and run the hell out of that thing.  I've grown fond of using my pitching wedge to hit a low laser from about 120 yards when wind is an issue.  I know that is probably the solution to my dilemma, but I just don't have the practice time right now to have a ton of confidence in that play.  I wouldn't mind having a 58* wedge when I short side myself around the greens.  I flirted with a 60* this weekend and I forgot how fun it can be to hit one.  The problem as I stated above, is that I don't feel like I can manipulate an iron set PW the same way I can with a specialty wedge.

I really appreciate the response.  You guys certainly aren't letting me off the hook without exploring all reasons I am contributing to the problem!

[Franc38]

4 minutes ago, VincentB said:

Practice?  We talkin about practice?  I'm getting a lesson in the obvious with everyone on this thread and I love it.  You guys don't miss a thing.  I need to practice and the summer is when I have more time.   Currently, I work 55 hours M - F and my back will only allow me to either practice or play on the weekend.  Right now I'm choosing to play, so I'm looking for more of a plug and play option.  However, if I had the practice time, I would definitely work on making my PW as flexible as my SW.  Let me ask you a question.  Do you find it easier to manipulate a wedge from your iron set vs a specialty wedge?  I'm using the Callaway Mack Daddy wedge and I love that thing.  I can play so many different shots and I am very confident with that club. I definitely don't feel like I can do the same with my PW.  Is that mental or is the larger footprint more challenging to manipulate (open up, hood, flop shot, etc...)?

I don't have too much problem manipulating my PW... then again, it's a MB, it's small, it's got bounce.

What I suggest wasn't that you practice more... simply that you focus your practice (and that could be done while playing rounds, we all have busy lives and can't play/practice/work out as much as needed or wanted) on funking your distances with your PW and your gap wedge. Every time you're between 140 and 110 for example, play your ball, drop one or two more, try different things.

Then if you think that we're "captain obviousing" you, maybe that just because yeah, the answer to your problem is... not a magic club or something, but trial, error, improvmeent, on your equipment, your mental approach and your technique. What else did you think you'll get?

[VincentB]

On 1/22/2023 at 11:01 AM, cnosil said:

Both of those sets have a set GW; next would be probably 53/54 and then 58/60.  Figure out how far you hit them and then fix the gapping.  58/60 could be your sand wedge. 

I had no idea a GW was an option with these sets.  I checked the website and I was going off of this graphic.

[VincentB]

On 1/22/2023 at 5:03 PM, korsmot said:

I am big fan of addressing your long clubs to address your wedges.  The 14 club limit is obviously the issue.  I agree with all the contribuitors that say ignore the "P" on top and just look at how far you hit it.  If you called it a 9 iron in your old set and now it says PW, that is just street cred.  "Strong like bull".

I am a fan of 5 wedges since they have gone to the jacked lofts in irons sets.  PW (44), AW (48), GW (52), SW (56), LW (60).   

Cheers

Tigger

I like where this is going.  Thanks for sharing.  I've never really cared what other people think, especially when it comes to my game.  But it does help to hear others are expanding the number of wedges in the bag.  I hadn't considered going 5 wedges, but that is definitely more of a plug and play option when I don't have time to practice.  I'm starting to really like the idea of a matching gap wedge then using specialty wedges.  That would cut my gap in half (hence the name of the club, ha!) and let me still add two specialty wedges to the bag.  

[GolfSpy_APH]

3 minutes ago, VincentB said:

I like where this is going.  Thanks for sharing.  I've never really cared what other people think, especially when it comes to my game.  But it does help to hear others are expanding the number of wedges in the bag.  I hadn't considered going 5 wedges, but that is definitely more of a plug and play option when I don't have time to practice.  I'm starting to really like the idea of a matching gap wedge then using specialty wedges.  That would cut my gap in half (hence the name of the club, ha!) and let me still add two specialty wedges to the bag.  

I've had set gap wedges in my last several sets and they have often become one of my favorites. 

Looking forward to seeing how this all works out for you and this has also become a great thread for those curious about the topic!

[VincentB]

10 minutes ago, Franc38 said:

Then if you think that we're "captain obviousing" you, maybe that just because yeah, the answer to your problem is... not a magic club or something, but trial, error, improvmeent, on your equipment, your mental approach and your technique. What else did you think you'll get?

Please don't take offense.  I'm loving the feedback.  I like being held accountable for the role I've played in where I currently find myself.  You are right, there is no magic answer, but you've given me plenty to think about.  I'm leaning towards adding the iron set gap wedge and then adding two more specialty wedges.  In my head, I imagine a 140 PW, 130 GW, 115 OW (other wedge) and 105 SW.  While there might be a few more yards in between my GW and OW, I think I can choke up a bit and take a few yards off of my GW.

[VincentB]

3 minutes ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

I've had set gap wedges in my last several sets and they have often become one of my favorites. 

Looking forward to seeing how this all works out for you and this has also become a great thread for those curious about the topic!

I can't try the Mizuno JPX 923 Forged until February, but I will definitely update the thread and let you all know how it goes.  To my eye, I'd love the MP 223, but I don't think my game is there anymore and I imagine I could use extra help as I approach 50 (it's still 5 years away, but as you can see I don't buy new clubs very often).  Thanks to all of you for the feedback.  This turned out so much better than I anticipated.  As I stated, I'm leaning towards a 4 wedge set up.  Of course all this could change once I get fitted, but I feel more confident with the info you guys have provided.  If this thread ends up helping anyone else, then that's just a super double bonus.

[Franc38]

Both the MP225 and JPX923 forged have a GW... which really are PW if you consider the PW a 9 and so on... I guess it's harder to "finesse" a shot with a 44° club than with a 47° club (and even more so than with 52°, 56° or 60°)

You also have the option of getting a 48° from Vokey or most other specialised wedge manufacturers. But I guess that with limited practice having what's essentially a bladed PW when your 9 is a chunkier, more forgiving type would not be "inviting", better push the specialised wedges to higher lofts, where the lofts makes the forgiveness!

[Javs]

My new irons were stronger than my last set as well. My current setup is: 26, 30, 34, 39, 44, 49, 54 and 58. I also carry driver 9 degree, 3w at 15, 2 h at 17, 4 and 5 h and of course coming in at 14 is my trusted Scotty flat stick.

[Javs]

On 1/18/2023 at 4:09 PM, VincentB said:

I currently game MP53s, Callaway X2Hot Driver, 3 wood and 3 hybrid. I took some time off from the game (5+ years), but I've been playing at least 3 times a month for the last 8 months.  I'm rewarding my dedication with some new equipment, starting with irons.  The question I have is how are you gapping your wedges.  The sets I'm looking at have a 44* pitching wedge.  That's pretty damn strong.  My current setup is a 46* pitching wedge with a 50* gap wedge and a 54* sand wedge.  I have a bit of a distance gap between my gap wedge and my pitching wedge, but it rarely causes me any issues on the course.  However, with a 44* pitching wedge, would I need to add three more wedges to the setup(48, 52, 56)?  My distance with a pitching wedge is approximately 140 yards (+/- 5 yards).  I'm worried that a 44*pitching wedge will result in full shots closer to 150 yards.  That would leave a 30 yard gap with my current wedge setup, but I'd have to remove a club to make room for an additional wedge.  I can't be the only one dealing with this.  How are you guys gapping your wedges?

 

[Andrew75]

On 1/19/2023 at 1:48 AM, GolfSpy_APH said:

suggest is do a gapping session when you get your new irons and then sort out the rest. It may be that you don't really need one of the top end clubs and can add a wedge, or you do something like

You should know precise distance ranges for every club in your bag, and this is doubly so with wedges, and easier to ascertain because of the shorter distance. 

It's hard to answer the question without knowing the player's skill at half shots, three quarter shots, etc.  We'd also need to know the courses you typically play.

I have super strong lofts, so my PW is 37.5, AW is 42.5 then I have a 48.5/8.5 and 55/10  I keep a 59 in the closet for tournament play if the course demands flop type land and stop shots, but as a rule never play those shots due to risk reward assessment, experience and skill limitation. 

[cnosil]

20 minutes ago, Andrew75 said:

You should know precise distance ranges for every club in your bag, and this is doubly so with wedges, and easier to ascertain because of the shorter distance. 

It's hard to answer the question without knowing the player's skill at half shots, three quarter shots, etc.  We'd also need to know the courses you typically play.

I have super strong lofts, so my PW is 37.5, AW is 42.5 then I have a 48.5/8.5 and 55/10  I keep a 59 in the closet for tournament play if the course demands flop type land and stop shots, but as a rule never play those shots due to risk reward assessment, experience and skill limitation. 

You are correct on all of this; however, the realities and peoples perceptions about equipment show that this isn’t what people do. What you find on the forum are “serious” golfers that dive in and figure this stuff out to players that just walk into a store and buy some club because they want it today and their favorite social media personality plays those clubs. 

players should know how far they carry the ball not total distance or how far that one shot went that was down wind and downhill.  people also don’t want to take the time to figure out those distances.  Depending on the person, getting those distances might be difficult for the following reasons:

• the don’t trust launch monitor data
• they don’t want to or struggle to hit indoors 
• they can’t use gamer balls on the range or go out and actually measure distances
• courses are too crowded to hit multiple shots into greens.  
• they simply don’t practice.
   

Lofting of clubs is always a back and forth heated discussion…”traditional” lofts vs strong lofts.  People on forums always ask what loft of club should I play and how many degrees should be between them,  but like you indicated, skill, club type,  course conditions, etc, all influence what is needed.  

 

There are general answers but ultimately players need to hit clubs and see what works for themselves and like you said, learn how far they hit their clubs. 
 

 

 

[Andrew75]

9 minutes ago, cnosil said:

You are correct on all of this; however, the realities and peoples perceptions about equipment show that this isn’t what people do. What you find on the forum are “serious” golfers that dive in and figure this stuff out to players that just walk into a store and buy some club because they want it today and their favorite social media personality plays those clubs. 

players should know how far they carry the ball not total distance or how far that one shot went that was down wind and downhill.  people also don’t want to take the time to figure out those distances.  Depending on the person, getting those distances might be difficult for the following reasons:

• the don’t trust launch monitor data
• they don’t want to or struggle to hit indoors 
• they can’t use gamer balls on the range or go out and actually measure distances
• courses are too crowded to hit multiple shots into greens.  
• they simply don’t practice.
   

Lofting of clubs is always a back and forth heated discussion…”traditional” lofts vs strong lofts.  People on forums always ask what loft of club should I play and how many degrees should be between them,  but like you indicated, skill, club type,  course conditions, etc, all influence what is needed.  

 

There are general answers but ultimately players need to hit clubs and see what works for themselves and like you said, learn how far they hit their clubs. 
 

 

 

It seems these tasks are easier now that we have GPS and range finders. I find it hard to believe, say, that after viewing a certain wedge shot to be 81 yards and repeatedly coming up short with, say, a 56* that they'd continue to pull the 56* and not the stronger club, and if it's too hard to hit the stronger club 81, then to see there's a gap issue that needs solving if that length is a recurring issue.

If I was teaching, I'd have an iron clad rule that any club that says "wedge" on it should never be hit with anything more than 75% of one's swing speed capabilities. Hitting wedges too hard is one of the top five reasons for poor scoring.

I know my numbers and assess them constantly. I don't relate to someone who claims to live golf, wants to improve, but doesn't know their numbers. It's inviting high scores. 

[202]

As I stated, I'm leaning towards a 4 wedge set up.  Of course all this could change once I get fitted, but I feel more confident with the info you guys have provided.  If this thread ends up helping anyone else, then that's just a super double bonus.

A 4 wedges setup (44, 48, 52 and 56) could work well for you.
I would try that for a couple of rounds, and if you see a need, go for a 5th wedge and add a 60 degrees one.

[cnosil]

31 minutes ago, Andrew75 said:

It seems these tasks are easier now that we have GPS and range finders. I find it hard to believe, say, that after viewing a certain wedge shot to be 81 yards and repeatedly coming up short with, say, a 56* that they'd continue to pull the 56* and not the stronger club, and if it's too hard to hit the stronger club 81, then to see there's a gap issue that needs solving if that length is a recurring issue.

If I was teaching, I'd have an iron clad rule that any club that says "wedge" on it should never be hit with anything more than 75% of one's swing speed capabilities. Hitting wedges too hard is one of the top five reasons for poor scoring.

I know my numbers and assess them constantly. I don't relate to someone who claims to live golf, wants to improve, but doesn't know their numbers. It's inviting high scores. 

GPS and Range finders don’t help with carry distance as the ball ends up at total distance. a ball that lands at 81 but rolls out to 91 is an 81 yard shot not 91.  So when the player sees 91 on their GPS or rangefinder, the 81 yard club is probably not the right choice as the carry distance shot pattern is probably 70 - 90
 

 Shot tracking systems like shotscope and arccos continue to show that people keep pulling the 56 because of the one shot they might hit that reaches the back of their shot pattern….Players are short of their target the majority of the time and they have huge dispersion patterns.  They simply aren’t skilled enough to consistently hit shots well.  
 

I’d be interested in seeing the research that hitting wedges too hard is a top 5 reason for poor scoring.  
 

you may not relate to those players, but I believe  they are the overwhelming majority of golfers.  Based on your posts, you relate to the advanced/competitive golfer.   

[Andrew75]

When you hit wedges with decent equipment and urethane balls from fairway lies they don't roll 10 yards.  So I can't agree with you there. My carry distance is pretty much my distance through the 7 iron.  My wedges hit and stop on flat normal surfaces.  My seven iron will typically go about 6 feet forward after landing.  Even if a player can't spin the ball and they think they hit the 56 91 yards but constantly hit bunker lips when shooting over traps they'll figure it out   It is far more important to know roll out on drivers, woods and hybrids.   

 

I have no research on it, but in 50 years of playing golf it's just a patently obvious observation. One has to have complete control over a wedge, hitting hard applies to much backspin, causes mishits and shots that travel too high and are impacted by wind. You really can't control trajectory to my degree of satisfaction on full out swings with any club, except wide open downwind.  I'm not a big hitter at all, but I play control shots pretty much all day everyday. I long ago learned to handcuff myself. I pride myself at almost always landing pin high 7 iron and down and 7 iron is my longest iron. It's not skill, it's more application of knowledge and thinking it through (quickly).  I'm the shortest hitter in my group of 8 regulars who all shoot mid 70s, but I'm closest to the pin most often and average 13.5 gir. I have a very short, simple, unforced and generally fluid swing with not a lot of extra moving parts. 

I'd say 1) yips or careless putting, 2) overswinging wedges, 3) not properly aiming, 4) not knowing limits and averages, 5) overswinging generally, are the biggest reasons for wasted shots.  Bad nerves, maybe 6).