Single Plane Swing and less active lower body.

[RoverRick]

I’m back. Well, I never really left, just haven’t posted as much. 
 

The past few years have been rough on me. I have arthritis in both knees and I tore tendons and ligaments in my ankle and after 15 months I had surgery. That’s mostly healed, but I often wear hiking boots to golf so that I get extra support. But most golf instruction focuses on leg action and more body rotation. This is great if I want to play once a week. I can do traditional swings quite well for a few holes. Sometimes a whole round or almost two rounds, but there seems a point where the knees start hurting, the lower body starts to become less active, the hands start to take over, and the ball goes left. So I began a quest for a swing where there was less leg drive. 
 

I spent the better part of 2021 searching, and towards the end, I came across Todd Graves and the Moe Norman swing. I studied this and practiced and gamed it for almost all of 2022. At least the irons and hybrids and fairways were great. The driver is straight but I of course wanted more distance. I’m sure I could gain more distance if I transitioned better.
 

The neutral left hand is difficult for me. I prefer a stronger grip but the results were there. Dead straight ball flight and repeatable distance. 
 

Towards the end of February, possibly because I was finally over the ankle issues, possibly because I’m stupid. I went back to a traditional leg driven swing. Well, I’m going back to the Moe Norman Swing. 
 

When I say there is less leg action than other swings, this is not exactly accurate. The legs are 100% involved in the swing, but they are straighter to start with and instead of straightening the left leg quickly, which raises the hip and shoulder that increase the club speed, etc. the left knee actually goes from almost straight to slightly flexed and stays there until well into the follow through and the pressure is relieved. 
 

I’m going to the range tomorrow, if that pesky job doesn’t interfere with the important stuff, and focus on this swing. A guy said to me last year, “I tried this but there has to be a reason it’s not used on tour.” My response was “I’m almost 60 years old with bad knees and I ain’t likely to ever be on any tour.” 
 

I want a repeatable swing, that gets me a useful distance down the fairway, on or near the green where I can have a putt at the hole with a reasonable score. Okay, I want to beat the guys I’m playing, but I also want to be able to walk to the bathroom after a round of golf without much pain. 
 

Let me know if you have tried this or have any interest in it. 

[Sparkee]

I have lots of interest in what you are experiencing as it seems at 66 I am entertaining the idea of a new swing to alleviate the bottom half . I retired 6 years ago and when Covid hit I ended up walking as a way to get outside and get some exercise well now that Covid has passed ( as far as I am concerned) . It turns out my right knee has some issues which will hopefully be discovered in an upcoming mri , so we can move on with remedying my leg. I also have osteoarthritis in other joints in  my body . Anyways I always to be in some kind of pain , walking and golfing might turn into carting and golfing although I hope not . But like you I can’t get a whole game in without changing my swing to alleviate something else . That’s my story so far , I will be checking in on this thread and hopefully contributing some good information. 

[MacTourney]

6 hours ago, RoverRick said:

I’m back. Well, I never really left, just haven’t posted as much. 

I went back to a traditional leg driven swing. Well, I’m going back to the Moe Norman Swing. 

When I say there is less leg action than other swings, this is not exactly accurate. The legs are 100% involved in the swing, but they are straighter to start with and instead of straightening the left leg quickly, which raises the hip and shoulder that increase the club speed, etc. the left knee actually goes from almost straight to slightly flexed and stays there until well into the follow through and the pressure is relieved. 

I want a repeatable swing, that gets me a useful distance down the fairway, on or near the green where I can have a putt at the hole with a reasonable score. Okay, I want to beat the guys I’m playing, but I also want to be able to walk to the bathroom after a round of golf without much pain. 

Let me know if you have tried this or have any interest in it. 

Moe may say going through the strike upon bent lead knee support limits the club's toe from turning over too hard.    Sounds like you're on the right track.    

[Merlin1313]

7 hours ago, RoverRick said:

I’m back. Well, I never really left, just haven’t posted as much. 
 

The past few years have been rough on me. I have arthritis in both knees and I tore tendons and ligaments in my ankle and after 15 months I had surgery. That’s mostly healed, but I often wear hiking boots to golf so that I get extra support. But most golf instruction focuses on leg action and more body rotation. This is great if I want to play once a week. I can do traditional swings quite well for a few holes. Sometimes a whole round or almost two rounds, but there seems a point where the knees start hurting, the lower body starts to become less active, the hands start to take over, and the ball goes left. So I began a quest for a swing where there was less leg drive. 
 

I spent the better part of 2021 searching, and towards the end, I came across Todd Graves and the Moe Norman swing. I studied this and practiced and gamed it for almost all of 2022. At least the irons and hybrids and fairways were great. The driver is straight but I of course wanted more distance. I’m sure I could gain more distance if I transitioned better.
 

The neutral left hand is difficult for me. I prefer a stronger grip but the results were there. Dead straight ball flight and repeatable distance. 
 

Towards the end of February, possibly because I was finally over the ankle issues, possibly because I’m stupid. I went back to a traditional leg driven swing. Well, I’m going back to the Moe Norman Swing. 
 

When I say there is less leg action than other swings, this is not exactly accurate. The legs are 100% involved in the swing, but they are straighter to start with and instead of straightening the left leg quickly, which raises the hip and shoulder that increase the club speed, etc. the left knee actually goes from almost straight to slightly flexed and stays there until well into the follow through and the pressure is relieved. 
 

I’m going to the range tomorrow, if that pesky job doesn’t interfere with the important stuff, and focus on this swing. A guy said to me last year, “I tried this but there has to be a reason it’s not used on tour.” My response was “I’m almost 60 years old with bad knees and I ain’t likely to ever be on any tour.” 
 

I want a repeatable swing, that gets me a useful distance down the fairway, on or near the green where I can have a putt at the hole with a reasonable score. Okay, I want to beat the guys I’m playing, but I also want to be able to walk to the bathroom after a round of golf without much pain. 
 

Let me know if you have tried this or have any interest in it. 

I'm not really familiar w those swings- but I've been working on the Jim Hardy One Plane swing for a LONG time. It's easy/ repeatable and pretty logical.  If you watch Stricker and or Kuchar, it's pretty much their swing to a T. There's a DVD set out called The Plane Truth. It's 3 DVDs and FWIW it greatly helped me with my swing. I got more accuracy and distance than I'd be having before 

[Shankster]

Highly recommend checking out Kirk Junge.  I did this for 2-3 years.  But I too am back at a “normal” swing.  It takes some serious discipline to stick with the single plane set up.

[RickyBobby_PR]

9 hours ago, RoverRick said:

The legs are 100% involved in the swing, but they are straighter to start with and instead of straightening the left leg quickly, which raises the hip

Neither leg should straighten quickly on the swing. The trial should should slowly straighten as the backdown completes and the lead leg gains flex. In the downswing both legs gain flex and the the lead leg straightens closer to impact so relatively late in the swing 

[Kenny B]

I started Moe's SPS back when Graves was just getting started, so maybe late 1990's-early 2000's.  I was never a long hitter of the ball and I had a huge slice.  After a couple of lessons this swing eliminated my slice. I went to several of the GGA clinics, and used this swing for 15 years.  When I turned 67, I was losing so much yardage, that I made the decision to go back to a 2-plane swing.  I gained some yards, but more importantly over the last 8 years I haven't lost any more yards.  I still incorporate some aspects of Moe's swing... still hit about as straight, but I think those aspects also have kept me from maximizing my potential distance gain.  It took me a long time to achieve some semblance of balance while rotating and lifting heels off the ground.  I still don't get as much rotation and depth in my backswing as Monte wants me to, but I think I'm getting there.  

If people are struggling with their swing, it's a reasonable swing change to make.  However, like any other swing change, magic doesn't happen overnight.  I was a big fan of Moe's swing for many years and it made playing golf a lot more fun when I'm not looking for my ball all the time, but I think I stuck with it too long.  

[RoverRick]

1 hour ago, Shankster said:

Highly recommend checking out Kirk Junge.  I did this for 2-3 years.  But I too am back at a “normal” swing.  It takes some serious discipline to stick with the single plane set up.

I’ve looked at Kirk Junge’s stuff and tried it. The appeal of the Graves over Junge to me is the leg action. My trail leg is still mostly flat at impact but that is not a function of “holding the foot flat”. It is simply a function of the club arriving at the ball before the trail foot lifts. Junge has more of a traditional lower body movement which is the issue for me. 
 

19 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Neither leg should straighten quickly on the swing. The trial should should slowly straighten as the backdown completes and the lead leg gains flex. In the downswing both legs gain flex and the the lead leg straightens closer to impact so relatively late in the swing 

Yeah yeah. Define “quickly”. I intend to have a nice smooth swing, ala Mike Malaska videos with pushing the hip out of the way. I swing and then  bend over to pick up the tee and realized I did straighten the leg rather quickly. 
 

[RickyBobby_PR]

21 minutes ago, RoverRick said:

I’ve looked at Kirk Junge’s stuff and tried it. The appeal of the Graves over Junge to me is the leg action. My trail leg is still mostly flat at impact but that is not a function of “holding the foot flat”. It is simply a function of the club arriving at the ball before the trail foot lifts. Junge has more of a traditional lower body movement which is the issue for me. 
 

Yeah yeah. Define “quickly”. I intend to have a nice smooth swing, ala Mike Malaska videos with pushing the hip out of the way. I swing and then  bend over to pick up the tee and realized I did straighten the leg rather quickly. 
 

You are the one who said quickly. Considering the the downswing is ~.25 seconds there’s a lot of things happening quickly. In reality if the lead leg straightens first or or before the lead hip moves back it’s not good

[RoverRick]

 

1 hour ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

You are the one who said quickly. Considering the the downswing is ~.25 seconds there’s a lot of things happening quickly. In reality if the lead leg straightens first or or before the lead hip moves back it’s not good

True. This is feel vs real. In that vein, the Moe swing feels like it is more shoulder turn oriented.
 

Because of the detailed setup and preset shoulder tilt, trail foot slightly back (call it 10°), left foot flared, neutral lead hand and strong trail hand, and club already a foot behind the ball, most of the movement in a good backswing is done. I will preface this by saying if you sit on a swivel stood with your feet off the ground and “turn just your torso” there is not much movement that doesn’t involve using hips and legs and shoulders. 
 

With this set up, I turn my chest about 45° bringing my arms and club for the ride. So I’m 50-55° “turned” before I even “move” the club independently. Then fold the trail arm and bring the club to the top. So chest, then shoulders and arms with hands and clubs still moving. Maybe an 80° turn. But the top is behind me vs above me. 
 

Before the club reaches its stopping point is the transition to the downswing. Instead of the lead leg straightening it stays bent or perhaps even a little more bend. I’ll stop all the minutiae and just say that from there to me it feels like it is all upper body lead. In reality the lower body is doing things and initiating the sequence but to me it feels the hands firing and everything else supports that. 

[RoverRick]

I didn’t have time to go to the range on Monday or Tuesday, but did have several trips outside for practice swings with my training club I bought from Graves Golf shortly before abandoning this swing change a couple of months ago. It has a grip on it to show the hand positions, and it felt less awkward than before. 
 

I got  to the course in plenty of time to visit the range. I took my alignment rods that I have marked with tape showing foot positions and ball placement for this swing. Irons, hybrid and FM felt awesome from the start. I quicky went through the bag hitting 3-4 shots with the even numbered clubs. As an aside, in pre round warm ups I hit even number clubs on even number days and odd on odd. This swing always produced high straight ball flights. It just felt awkward to me. 
 

I then moved on to the driver du jour. I had with me the Stealth + 10.5° and SIM2 Max 9° heads along with Proforce V2, VENTUS Blue, Kai’li White, Hzrdus Smoke Red RDX. I ended up with the Stealth+ set on high with the Kai’li for that day, but in retrospect I wish I would have gone with the VENTUS or Hzrdus mainly because they have Jumbo grips on them, and the different feel may have made a difference on the course. I blow my grips on with an air compressor so I’ve been experimenting with the jumbos. The range warm up went great. 

Then I headed out on the course. A couple of perfect tee shots on the first 2 holes and a perfect approach on 2 for birdie net eagle and off to a good start. 8/14 FW 9/18 GIR 29 putts for a 77 net 70. 
 

Then I played in a par 3 scramble originally scheduled for last week. It was a lot thought than it sounded. Lots of odd distances and angles. I discovered my partial shots need some work. But I made all 9 putts for the group. 
 

I also need lots of reps with the swing in general and driver in particular. It was frustrating to make perfect rehearsal swings and then revert back to the other swing half way through. 
 

but most importantly, 27 holes and relatively no knee pain. 

[Kenny B]

On 4/10/2023 at 10:40 AM, RoverRick said:

 

True. This is feel vs real. In that vein, the Moe swing feels like it is more shoulder turn oriented.
 

Because of the detailed setup and preset shoulder tilt, trail foot slightly back (call it 10°), left foot flared, neutral lead hand and strong trail hand, and club already a foot behind the ball, most of the movement in a good backswing is done. I will preface this by saying if you sit on a swivel stood with your feet off the ground and “turn just your torso” there is not much movement that doesn’t involve using hips and legs and shoulders. 
 

With this set up, I turn my chest about 45° bringing my arms and club for the ride. So I’m 50-55° “turned” before I even “move” the club independently. Then fold the trail arm and bring the club to the top. So chest, then shoulders and arms with hands and clubs still moving. Maybe an 80° turn. But the top is behind me vs above me. 
 

Before the club reaches its stopping point is the transition to the downswing. Instead of the lead leg straightening it stays bent or perhaps even a little more bend. I’ll stop all the minutiae and just say that from there to me it feels like it is all upper body lead. In reality the lower body is doing things and initiating the sequence but to me it feels the hands firing and everything else supports that. 

Although I was pretty good at Moe's swing over the years, the sequencing is what prevented me from maximizing what speed I have. For years I never had much of a wrist hinge; I still have times when I don't and I can tell that it throws off the timing of my swing.  This sequencing is backwards from what Monte teaches; he says in his latest video Power Shift that most amateurs get their sequencing backwards from what elite players do, which should be that movement starts first with:
1.  Club
2.  Hands
3.  Arms
4.  Shoulders
5.  Torso
6.  Hips
7.  Knees
8.  Feet

I have been working on this sequencing and since I get earlier wrist set, I can maintain it in the backswing instead of trying (and failing) to get it later in the backswing with Moe's swing.  Moe gave me a very straight ball flight, but as I got older my swing speed dropped considerably.  I still have some Moe swing characteristics and I'm not sure whether they help of hurt me at this point; my trail foot stays planted too long sometimes, and my lead knee is flexed.

[RoverRick]

12 minutes ago, Kenny B said:

Although I was pretty good at Moe's swing over the years, the sequencing is what prevented me from maximizing what speed I have. For years I never had much of a wrist hinge; I still have times when I don't and I can tell that it throws off the timing of my swing.  This sequencing is backwards from what Monte teaches; he says in his latest video Power Shift that most amateurs get their sequencing backwards from what elite players do, which should be that movement starts first with:
1.  Club
2.  Hands
3.  Arms
4.  Shoulders
5.  Torso
6.  Hips
7.  Knees
8.  Feet

I have been working on this sequencing and since I get earlier wrist set, I can maintain it in the backswing instead of trying (and failing) to get it later in the backswing with Moe's swing.  Moe gave me a very straight ball flight, but as I got older my swing speed dropped considerably.  I still have some Moe swing characteristics and I'm not sure whether they help of hurt me at this point; my trail foot stays planted too long sometimes, and my lead knee is flexed.

I have a feeling that if I videoed my swing, and I have an app for that, I would find I’m doing things differently than I think. I have not had to resort to that because I’m feeling pretty good about it. Okay, I’m feeling great about the putter and that makes the full swing that much easier. 
 

When your course management only needs to be:

1. Give me a shot at the green off the tee. 
2. Give me a putt. 
3. Give me a tap in if it doesn’t go in. 

[RoverRick]

I went to the range today. I hit 84 balls, mostly with the driver. I excised my demons with the driver. I worked out two things. First was the exact movements to hit the ball the straightest. Second, which driver head and shaft combination worked best with this swing to hit the ball the farthest. 
 

The Swing.

The set up: almost straight legs, wider than shoulders, bent over at the waist, left foot flared perhaps 20°, right foot half as much flared but dropped back about 6” giving me a 10° closed stance, but a lot of room to drop the club and hit from the inside, ball position is off my left big toe. This will mean I’m setting up closed to my target line. I start with the club center stance, more than a foot behind the ball with the club face aimed directly at the target and the target line just the toe side of center. My arms and hands and shoulders are slightly relaxed.

The grip: left hand grip is on the strong side of neutral and the right hand is under the club and would be considered super strong giving me a considerable amount of side bend at address. Left arm in line with the shaft from the face on view and right arm in line then shaft from DTL view. If I stand up straight with my grip and hole the club in front of me, the face is facing 45° closed  

The Takeaway. Actually before the take away there is some waggle which starts at the feet weight left and right and some rehearsal. But I take the club, arms, hands, shoulders, torso and hips start back as a unit. Hips stop about 20°. Torso stops about 40°. At this point, since I started 10° closed I am about 60° into the back swing. I start to lift the club about when my hips stop by rotating my left hand and folding my right arm and finish off with some wrist cock. 
 

The transition. At the point that I feel my arms have reached their max, the wrists are still cocking and the club still moving, I transition my weight to my left leg, keeping the knee bent or more appropriately phrased as flexed. 

The Swing. This is also turning my hips to the left and of course my upper body is moving with them. Once my lower body has stabilized, I pull with my left shoulder until I have a straight shot at the ball and then fire my right arm and shoulder. The momentum of the club pulls everything straight. If the ball was a globe and the Americas were facing the target. I feel like I’m pounding the hell out of Australia and finish with a good follow through. 
 

(Proof reading this right now, I honestly can’t tell you when I start the club during downswing. I do know I am not aware of my shoulder turning until after impact. When I made an effort to turn the shoulder I hooked it badly. When all I thought about was “Shift-Go” it was great.)
 

I am very happy with my results so far. I experimented with minor adjustments. Toe up or keep the face square. Bowed, cupped or flat left wrist at the top. Mixed results and find I can adjust the ball flight, but that is not a goal at this time. 
 

The Driver. So I need a powerful weapon to take onto the field of battle tomorrow. The weapons locker contained a SIM2 MAX9° and a Stealth+ 10.5°. Also ProForce V2, VENTUS Blue 50S, Kai’li White 60S, and a Project X Hzrdus Red Smoke RDX 65g 6.0. Standard grips on the V2 and Kai’li, but a Jumbo!ax XL on the VENTUS and a Jumbomax XL Ultralight on the Hzrdus. I had the heaviest grip on the lightest shaft. It quickly became a battle between the VENTUS and Hzrdus. I never had good results with the VENTUS but that heavy grip and light shaft made it a beast. I also fooled around with the adjustments. 
 

The Winner. I ultimately decided the Stealth+ set to 8.5° on the Hzrdus RDX was the winner. It gave 4mph more ball speed than the Kai’li, and the dispersion was better than the VENTUS. 12° launch and was often less than 10’ from the center line. The radar doesn’t track the spin. Just launch, peak height, landing angle, carry and roll, and the direction. It said I was carrying about 215 and rolling another 40 yards into the wind with range balls that were so beat up it was hard to tell what brand they were. 
 

The conclusion. My ultimate conclusion was that with this swing I could hit 84 balls and still walk, most of them full driver swings, and I have a driver and a couple of shafts that may turn out to be beasts when not hitting range balls into the wind. I expect to hit some in the 260 yard range tomorrow and all of them down the middle. 
 

more tomorrow….

[RoverRick]

I knew I would play well today. I started off with 3 birdies out of four birdie putts. Then hit my longest drive in quite some time. We won’t discuss what happened next, but it was not pretty and went from -3 to +14.
 

But after working yesterday on the driver, I had 10/14 fairways with a couple 270+. That’s big time for me. So the driver was working well. Irons were working sporadically. Wedges were misbehaving. 
 

I’ve been putting phenomenally lately, but most of my first putts were 30+ feet today and a 30+foot lip out is a great putt. Sadly, 6 times that was a bogey putt that lipped out. 
. 
Overall, I think I made great progress. Certainly gained distance with the driver. 

[RoverRick]

The “Golf Week” is over. 77-86-80-82. Irons were solid all week. Worked on the driver Thursday and pretty solid all weekend. Wedges were horrible Friday, but after minimal amount of work Saturday and Sunday, they were much improved. However, this is wedge week. 
 

While my wedge game has always been pretty solid, I know I could have knocked off 5 strokes per round this weekend. I just counted 7 today. Although I had a chip in and stuffed one to 18” from 71 yards and another to 2 feet from 40. I have been reluctant to change my wedge stroke over to this new swing.
 

Keep in mind I’ve been working on this for more than a year, but just now had some breakthrough sessions. For example, my original complaints was the grip and pulling left.  My problem with the grip was due to a misunderstanding. The training club has a training grip and it was not near as weak as I understood listening to the descriptions. Also, I found I was standing too far from the ball thus giving me too flat and round of a swing. Thus causing my hooks or general discomfort. I made some adjustments and irons straightened out. Also driver is now good. 
 

Back to the wedges. There is a whole section on the short game and how it is just a variation and shorter full swing that I have avoided. I’m embarking on that now. 
 

I have to get this all worked out because I just entered the Club Match Game Tournament. The brackets were random draw and assigned yesterday. I have 10 weeks to play round 1. Round 1 is 18 hole match game round robin with 3 other players. Full handicap and we are to schedule a match on our own and have it completed by July 1. 
 

That sounds like a long time but we also have 4 other tournaments during that time. 

[NC Golfer]

On 4/16/2023 at 11:55 PM, RoverRick said:

The “Golf Week” is over. 77-86-80-82. Irons were solid all week. Worked on the driver Thursday and pretty solid all weekend. Wedges were horrible Friday, but after minimal amount of work Saturday and Sunday, they were much improved. However, this is wedge week. 
 

While my wedge game has always been pretty solid, I know I could have knocked off 5 strokes per round this weekend. I just counted 7 today. Although I had a chip in and stuffed one to 18” from 71 yards and another to 2 feet from 40. I have been reluctant to change my wedge stroke over to this new swing.
 

Keep in mind I’ve been working on this for more than a year, but just now had some breakthrough sessions. For example, my original complaints was the grip and pulling left.  My problem with the grip was due to a misunderstanding. The training club has a training grip and it was not near as weak as I understood listening to the descriptions. Also, I found I was standing too far from the ball thus giving me too flat and round of a swing. Thus causing my hooks or general discomfort. I made some adjustments and irons straightened out. Also driver is now good. 
 

Back to the wedges. There is a whole section on the short game and how it is just a variation and shorter full swing that I have avoided. I’m embarking on that now. 
 

I have to get this all worked out because I just entered the Club Match Game Tournament. The brackets were random draw and assigned yesterday. I have 10 weeks to play round 1. Round 1 is 18 hole match game round robin with 3 other players. Full handicap and we are to schedule a match on our own and have it completed by July 1. 
 

That sounds like a long time but we also have 4 other tournaments during that time. 

Have you looked at the Jim Venetos swing? It will allow that strong grip you prefer and less moving body parts. Haven't used it, just have read about it. 

https://www.superiortrails.com/golf/venetos-golf-swing.htm#:~:text=The Venetos golf setup is,strong grip promotes a draw.

[RoverRick]

1 hour ago, NC Golfer said:

Have you looked at the Jim Venetos swing? It will allow that strong grip you prefer and less moving body parts. Haven't used it, just have read about it. 

https://www.superiortrails.com/golf/venetos-golf-swing.htm#:~:text=The Venetos golf setup is,strong grip promotes a draw.

I have not, but most of those types of swings have a hip slide that doesn’t agree with my back. I have hit a lot of balls in the last week. 81 holes of golf and 3 trips to the range hitting 104 balls each time at the range so this swing definitely doesn’t hurt my body. 
 

Although I had a busy night, six different issues last night and never slept for more than an hour and a quarter before the phone went off again. I stopped at the range today and was down 6 mph swing speed from yesterday. It’s payroll night so I’ll be awake from 2-4. I don’t “have” to do it then, but the info is available at 2 am, and every week I wake up and can’t get back to sleep until it is done. Then have a conference with Payroll at 9 and off to play golf at 11. 

[RoverRick]

I’ve hit more than 100 balls a day for the past 10 days, and I have to take the day off.
 

I’ve always been a golf nut, but decided perhaps a month ago to make time to “work out” for at least an hour a day. Since I hate going to the gym I’ve been taking my clubs with me and stopping at the range, usually the TopTracker range. 84 balls for $8 and 104 for $9. There is also a $6 bucket as well as a $12 bucket that would be a workout just to carry to the bay. 
 

Both knees, right ankle, left elbow, right wrist, and lower back are all sore. Nothing major, except the knees. I am definitely in better shape for it and my golf swing is much better now, but I’m tired. 
 

By taking the day off, I do not mean I will not putt on my putting green in the office. I can do that while on the phone or stop when walking by it and hit the some 6-9’ putts. I don’t keep count but I hit 20-40 of these putts per day. I office from home so it really takes no effort. The balls, putter, and green are right there. I started this in January and my putting is much improved. 

[RoverRick]

Well, it’s been a week since my last update here, so I thought I would tell my progress. 

After hitting a ton of balls, my knees forced me to take a day off. The next day I was still not recovered. However, it more than likely had more to do with the changing weather than hitting balls. On Saturday, I broke down and wore my knee braces. In reality Tommie Copper is more beneficial to my swing than the Todd Graves’ Moe Norman swing. I can slip 4 small ice cubes in the elastic brace and that reduces swelling and lasts about 4 holes. 

Sunday was a rainout. Monday, I went to the TopTracker range and worked on driver.  I sort of abandoned this swing or more accurately took parts from several different swing methods. I’m not even sure what all I am doing, but I played yesterday and thanks largely to great driving and a phenomenal short game I shot a 73. 
 

Another rainout today, but went to the range. Ball striking was great. I have a major club tournament this weekend. So I’m just trying to go on autopilot and not have swing thoughts until Monday. 

[jbern]

@RoverRick, What's the status of your swing these days?

I'm curious because I've been doing the Moe Norman/Graves single plane swing (SPS) for about two years now. I'm 36 years old and prior to the single plane swing my back would be so sore by the time 9 holes was done that I didn't even want to do the rest of the 9 holes. Not to mention I had a 50 yard miss in either direction. Since using the SPS, I haven't had any back issues and my distances with each club have actually gone up.

I haven't done any of the Graves paid services (academy's or online instruction). I did participate in a free lesson where the online instructor provided me with a single tip for my swing and it was extremely valuable. I have a Graves position trainer and the Graves Single Plane grips on my irons. I've been considering getting training club, but haven't pulled the trigger yet. The other thing that I like is that I'm comparing my swing to one model, so if I'm struggling with something, I can compare my swings with Graves/Moe swings and pick out where I'm off (usually in the take-off or not keeping my trail foot down). 

Anyway, it's cool to hear other forum members are using/trying to use the single plane swing. When I'm on the course I sometimes feel a little awkward playing with new people.

 

[RoverRick]

@jbern Thanks for asking.

It’s been 10 months since my last update in this thread. Looking back on this now, the thing I got most wrong was when I said I have gotten over my ankle problems. It comes and goes and is affected by weather. 

I’ve played some great golf and some horrible golf. I have tried 4 other swing methods, Marcus Edblad, Prozac, Mike Malaska, Jim Venetos. All trying to get rid of the same problem. Hooking the irons and pushing the driver. None of those have been as consistent as the Todd Graves/Moe Norman swing. Graves will say Moe Norman 100 times but his teaching is based on Moe’s swing but there are differences. 

First, Graves training aids, since you brought it up. I bought the training club second hand. I thought it was … meh. The grip was great but the one I have is a 6 iron with a 4 iron length. It is a great concept, a training device that you actually hit balls with, but its usefulness was short lived. Once I got used to the hand position, I rarely used it. The ball position trainer is important because of the consistency in setup it provides. I didn’t buy one but created one with an alignment stick and some electrical tape. The Swing Position Trainer I created by sticking a shaft inside another shaft. 

Second, the swing itself. For a while I had very consistent ball striking. But I began pulling the irons and pushing the driver. I know now that this stems from hanging back on my right side. The root cause of this is the right ankle, knee, and quad. I was injured again in October and have struggled with quadricep tendinitis since. I have a new brace for that. 

Thanks to @NC Golfer I recently tried the Jim Venetos swing. I was 100% wrong about that swing. I said I thought it required a shift of the weight that would hurt my back.  The Venetos swing is all about Stillness of the lower body.  Since my main problem is a weak right leg, I found that shifting back to my left side the problem. Norman had a “quiet” lower body. Venetos has a “still” lower body. Set up left and keep it there. 

Last weekend was the first time I even looked at the Venetos swing. I gave it a try on Wednesday. While I still made some bad swings, I shot 79 net 71 and won some money. 

The right foot back, still lower body produced excellent contact with an in-to-out path and a shallowing transition. There is still work to do. 

 

Edited February 10 by RoverRick

[cnosil]

34 minutes ago, RoverRick said:

I’ve played some great golf and some horrible golf. I have tried 4 other swing methods, Marcus Edblad, Prozac, Mike Malaska, Jim Venetos.

 

Maybe I need to try this method as the state of my golf game is often depressing 

[RoverRick]

2 hours ago, cnosil said:

Maybe I need to try this method as the state of my golf game is often depressing 

They are drastically different swings. 
Marcus Edblad (MES) is all about the trail side being the dominant side. Release the club early and have the trail hand faster than the lead hand. The swing is a push. Finish high right. More arms less body turn. 

Jim Venetos (JVS) is the opposite. The swing should be lead side dominant. It is a pull. Set up with the trail foot back and take the right side out of play. The rest doesn’t really matter. More arms less body turn. 

Porzac Golf (PG) is more wrist set with the club head outside the hands, hands low. And pull with the lead hand to the hip and turn hard. More body less hands. 

Mike Malaska (MM) is similar to Porzac but I would describe it as more trail side and hands. Equal body and hands.

Todd Graves/Moe Norman (TGMN) is higher hands, totally different set up and hit the positions of the swing. Less lower body, more shoulders, late hands. 

Eureka Golf Swing Steve Johnston (EG) is an open stance, inside take away, in-to-out swing, huge turn through the follow through. 
 

I’ve tried them all during the past year. There are advantages and disadvantages to all of them. For me, I am searching for the most consistent and the easiest on my high mileage body. 

Like I said in the previous post, I just watched JVS last week, in spite of the excellent advice from @NC Golfer last April. The more I get into this, the more I realize why I was so much better in 2016 than since 2018. I was hovering around a 1-2 handicap from 2014-2016. I didn’t play in 2017. I started back in 2018 and began the quest to rebuild my swing.

In spite of what I said just hours ago in a previous post, I will be sticking with this hopefully the rest of my life and many years. I will not attempt to marry JVS and TGMN swing thought. Jim has said something that really resonates with me about why you have good drivers of the ball and good putters of the ball but very few that can do both. Full swings are lead side dominant and putting is trail side dominant. I’ll add chipping in to trail side dominant since to me this is just putting with a lofted club. 

I will report back next week after some practice and some more thought.

According to my GolfShot App, with the TGMN I was sometimes 24° out to in and 49° steep. Off the first tee yesterday with the JVS I was 14° in to out and 29° shallow and hit a 220 drive into a 22 mph wind and drew it into the wind with a way less than center face strike. I was so excited about my first real opportunity to hit with that wind yesterday, that I forgot about staying still and rotated too much and re-injured my right quad and ruined the rest of my round. Not all of the holes, because I still managed 3 birdies and won $200 but my overall score was bad. 

 

[cnosil]

34 minutes ago, RoverRick said:

They are drastically different swings. 

 

Sorry,  you completely missed that you misspelled Porzac as Prozac 

[RickyBobby_PR]

1 hour ago, RoverRick said:

Porzac Golf (PG) is more wrist set with the club head outside the hands, hands low. And pull with the lead hand to the hip and turn hard. More body less hands. 

Mike Malaska (MM) is similar to Porzac but I would describe it as more trail side and hands. Equal body and hands.

Not how i would classify either of these. Porzak  hands in front one body and definitely not low hands. It’s and early wrist set which alot of instructors teach and it’s not a pull with the lead. Its a hand/arm drop in transition with back to the target and a push with the trail hands.

Malaska is definitely opposite of Porzak. Malaska’s move is almost a steepening move

[RoverRick]

1 hour ago, cnosil said:

Sorry,  you completely missed that you misspelled Porzac as Prozac 

I missed the spell checker continually changing it. I thought I caught them all. Because I thought I had corrected all of them the joke went right over my head. 
 

I did think, “cnosil is a pretty good golfer, why is he depressed?” 

Edited February 11 by RoverRick

[RoverRick]

25 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Not how i would classify either of these. Porzak  hands in front one body and definitely not low hands. It’s and early wrist set which alot of instructors teach and it’s not a pull with the lead. Its a hand/arm drop in transition with back to the target and a push with the trail hands.

Malaska is definitely opposite of Porzak. Malaska’s move is almost a steepening move

I typed the TGMN first and had skipped Porzac then went back, so the hands low take away was what I was thinking, when compared to the TGMN. Also, I was attempting to give a thumbnail of each and highlight some differences off the top of my head. 
 

There are a lot of things in common each of the method. One of the main points of all of them is keeping your hands in front of the body. 

[jbern]

Great update on the swing, but I’m sorry to hear you’re still having ankle issues 10 months later. 
 

7 hours ago, RoverRick said:

First, Graves training aids, since you brought it up. I bought the training club second hand. I thought it was … meh. The grip was great but the one I have is a 6 iron with a 4 iron length. It is a great concept, a training device that you actually hit balls with, but its usefulness was short lived. Once I got used to the hand position, I rarely used it. The ball position trainer is important because of the consistency in setup it provides. I didn’t buy one but created one with an alignment stick and some electrical tape. The Swing Position Trainer I created by sticking a shaft inside another shaft.

I’m glad I didn’t buy one of the training clubs then. I wondered if it would be useful and now that I have the grips it doesn’t sound like it will be. I would like to try one out sometime, but not a necessity. 
I was given the alignment trainer from a friend and I proceeded to create one on a wooden ruler with a sharpie because he wanted it back. It’s one of my favorite training aids and I use it every range session. 

The position trainer I like, but I’ve found that it’s not as useful as I hoped. It’s nice for when my issue is take off (I often lead the backswing with the shoulders). Otherwise it’s used as an expensive alignment stick. 
 

Sounds like you’re still doing ok and winning money with about any swing you try so that’s good!
 

[RoverRick]

45 minutes ago, jbern said:

Sounds like you’re still doing ok and winning money with about any swing you try so that’s good!
 

It’s not from the swing. 

It’s the putter. I’m not exactly sure where short game stats start but I’m really good inside 100 yards. And while I feel like I miss too many putts I average 27 putts per round. When I keep the ball in play I’m usually in the hunt. 

We also have 3 bets. Low Net Score, Skins, and Deuces. Deuces can’t be covered up and can be a big pay day. We have had up to 24 players at $20 each in the Deuce Pot. There can be 0 and we all get our money back. I think 8 was the highest. I won low net on Wednesday, but no skins a we had 1 deuce winner. $300+ for him. I had a deuce Friday with 13 in the pot and a skin and won pretty big considering how poorly I played the middle 10 holes. It’s my 4th 2 of the year. Including a 63’er in January.