Why aren't there more links courses on the PGA Tour?

[TBS]

The Open adds such a great change of pace for the Tour in terms of visuals, shot making, and weather. How come there aren't a few a more links courses on Tour?

I know Trinity Forrest had its chance and USGA Am was at Bandon a couple years ago, but how great would it be for there to be a stop at Cabot, Bandon, Streamsong, or any number of the nebraska/SD courses?! Kiawah had some of these elements and was a huge success. I know a lot of these are resort courses and would take away from guest play for a number of weeks during peak times but I think it would be good for the game. It would be great to see pros and commentators talk about how grass and landscaping doesn't need to look like Augusta. 

[null]

1) Courses need certain infrastructure to support holding PGA Tour events

2) Courses need to practically shut down for at least a month or so before tournaments to prep for them, so that could potentially hurt a course's business (or piss off membership if it is a private club)

3) The players basically run the tour and they want to play very specific styles of courses that fit their "skills".  

 

[Mtbryant01]

4 minutes ago, jlukes said:

1) Courses need certain infrastructure to support holding PGA Tour events

2) Courses need to practically shut down for at least a month or so before tournaments to prep for them, so that could potentially hurt a course's business (or piss off membership if it is a private club)

3) The players basically run the tour and they want to play very specific styles of courses that fit their "skills".  

 

I'm curious how much money a course actually gets to keep/makes from holding a PGA tour event. Would it easily offset being closed for a month or fixing the course from the trample of the spectators/media/grandstands etc.? 

Obviously a course benefits from having it be a stop on the PGA tour and will probably see an increase in tee times being booked the years after. I don't know if this correlates, but Shadow Creek increased its green fees to $1000 or more. Could that be from the recent PGA stops over the last couple years?

 

[Shankster]

I’m ready for the World Wide Tour.  I’d love to see some courses other than TPC’s… although, I haven’t watched much golf in the last 2 years.  Even missed the Irish, and Scottish opens.  Bummer.

 

where at i the US does a course exist that has enough hotel rooms, houses for rent, etc that isn’t in a large metro area… leaving Parkland courses as the only option.

[sixcat]

Outside of Bandon and National Golf Links, are there any other true links courses in the US?
 

I don’t see either of those needing to meet the demands required to host a PGA Tour event. Maybe a major championship but not a regular Tour event.

[ZenGolfer]

8 hours ago, TBS said:

The Open adds such a great change of pace for the Tour in terms of visuals, shot making, and weather. How come there aren't a few a more links courses on Tour?

I know Trinity Forrest had its chance and USGA Am was at Bandon a couple years ago, but how great would it be for there to be a stop at Cabot, Bandon, Streamsong, or any number of the nebraska/SD courses?! Kiawah had some of these elements and was a huge success. I know a lot of these are resort courses and would take away from guest play for a number of weeks during peak times but I think it would be good for the game. It would be great to see pros and commentators talk about how grass and landscaping doesn't need to look like Augusta. 

Id say the short answer is that there arent many courses in America that are links courses, can host a tour event, are made for good TV and that is willing to either pay enough or bring enough sponsors to get an event.

There are some, Whistling Straits is one that comes to mind.  I feel like a lot of people forget about it because its in the middle of nowhere and then it hosts a major and reminds everyone how amazing it is.

[fixyurdivot]

Well, Chambers Bay claims to be a "links design" course but that's debatable.  I attended the 2016 US Open and played it once.  I'd say it's close to what we think of as a true links course but others may see that differently?  It definitely has the local infrastructure to host a tour event but overall many of the players did not like it; especially the greens.

[sixcat]

19 minutes ago, fixyurdivot said:

Well, Chambers Bay claims to be a "links design" course but that's debatable.  I attended the 2016 US Open and played it once.  I'd say it's close to what we think of as a true links course but others may see that differently?  It definitely has the local infrastructure to host a tour event but overall many of the players did not like it; especially the greens.

I haven’t been to Chambers yet. Planning a trip in 2022. My thoughts having never seen the property in person, they don’t need a regular Tour event. They will get another US Open or be swept up by the PGA.
 

In think the PGA would benefit from more interesting courses like Chambers. 

[TBS]

2 hours ago, sixcat said:

Outside of Bandon and National Golf Links, are there any other true links courses in the US?
 

I don’t see either of those needing to meet the demands required to host a PGA Tour event. Maybe a major championship but not a regular Tour event.

I think infrastructure is the biggest obstacle as others have said. While its definitely a much different experience attending a tournament at a cool course vs playing the course itself, imagine a tournament out at Sandhills, a course most people would never get to step foot on. A part of the country the casual viewer would never associate with golf. It could be a "build it, they will come" situation.

I think @sixcat is right though, a major championship is more likely than a regular stop for most of these courses.

[HardcoreLooper]

1 hour ago, TBS said:

I think infrastructure is the biggest obstacle as others have said. While its definitely a much different experience attending a tournament at a cool course vs playing the course itself, imagine a tournament out at Sandhills, a course most people would never get to step foot on. A part of the country the casual viewer would never associate with golf. It could be a "build it, they will come" situation.

I think @sixcat is right though, a major championship is more likely than a regular stop for most of these courses.

Even a major is a tough ask.  The USGA will take a bit of a top-line hit (they won't lose any money, but they'll make less) going to Shinnecock because of the history and because they'll make it up by covering Torrey Pines with merch tents and corporate hospitality.  I've only been to one PGA Championship (Quail Hollow 2017), but that's even more for sale.  The USGA and PGA of America make a significant amount of their operating budgets with their majors.  They're unlikely to mess with a formula that works.

[sixcat]

8 hours ago, TBS said:

I think infrastructure is the biggest obstacle as others have said. While its definitely a much different experience attending a tournament at a cool course vs playing the course itself, imagine a tournament out at Sandhills, a course most people would never get to step foot on. A part of the country the casual viewer would never associate with golf. It could be a "build it, they will come" situation.

I think @sixcat is right though, a major championship is more likely than a regular stop for most of these courses.

Infrastructure isn't defined by whether a course is a links or not. Which was how I answered the OP's question. Many deserving courses won't (can't) host a regular Tour event much less a major simply because of the lack of infrastructure. Merion may not host another US Open. Not because the 2013 US Open wasn't phenomenal, but because the surrounding area cannot fully support the circus when it comes to town. Thus, taking money out of the USGA's pockets.

But Infrastructure doesn't fully explain why the Tour won't go certain places. The Tour is going to maximize profits. That's made much more difficult when the Tour has to pay for facilities such as Trinity Forest. Which is why we get so many bland, boring TPC's on Tour!

[DaveP043]

12 hours ago, ZenGolfer said:

Id say the short answer is that there arent many courses in America that are links courses, can host a tour event, are made for good TV and that is willing to either pay enough or bring enough sponsors to get an event.

There are some, Whistling Straits is one that comes to mind.  I feel like a lot of people forget about it because its in the middle of nowhere and then it hosts a major and reminds everyone how amazing it is.

Whistling Straits isn't really a links course, its completely manufactured terrain built on what was once nearly flat farmland.  Pete Dye did manufacture the terrain to mimic linksland, but I don't think it has the geology to behave the way links courses behave.  Still, its great to play, and interesting to watch the pros play.

Oddly enough, I do believe that some of the mid-country courses do qualify as links, being built on the remnants of sand deposits remaining from the retreat of the glaciers.  In a week I'll be at Sand Valley, WI, one of those inland "links".  I'll be sure to post my impressions of the courses when I return

[TBS]

8 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

  In a week I'll be at Sand Valley, WI, one of those inland "links".  I'll be sure to post my impressions of the courses when I return

Jealous - hope your trip is awesome

[Shankster]

27 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

Whistling Straits isn't really a links course, its completely manufactured terrain built on what was once nearly flat farmland.  Pete Dye did manufacture the terrain to mimic linksland, but I don't think it has the geology to behave the way links courses behave.  Still, its great to play, and interesting to watch the pros play.

Oddly enough, I do believe that some of the mid-country courses do qualify as links, being built on the remnants of sand deposits remaining from the retreat of the glaciers.  In a week I'll be at Sand Valley, WI, one of those inland "links".  I'll be sure to post my impressions of the courses when I return

Looking forward to reading your post round.  That place is on my short list.  As is Cabot Links in Nova Scotia, that is at the top right now.  Trying to plan a trip there next summer.

[LICC]

There aren't a large number of true links courses in the US to begin with. Then find one that has the infrastructure and convenient enough location for a Tour event and you can see why there aren't many. 

[ZenGolfer]

11 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

Whistling Straits isn't really a links course, its completely manufactured terrain built on what was once nearly flat farmland.  Pete Dye did manufacture the terrain to mimic linksland, but I don't think it has the geology to behave the way links courses behave.  Still, its great to play, and interesting to watch the pros play.

Oddly enough, I do believe that some of the mid-country courses do qualify as links, being built on the remnants of sand deposits remaining from the retreat of the glaciers.  In a week I'll be at Sand Valley, WI, one of those inland "links".  I'll be sure to post my impressions of the courses when I return

I dont think that manufacturered terrain really disqualifies it from being a links course.  Being on the coast and being windswept is really what makes a links course a links course, IMO.  You could argue that literally every golf course in the world is, "manufactured terrain".

To be fair though, being Wisconsin born and raised, Im probably biased.

Edited July 13, 2021 by ZenGolfer

[DaveP043]

15 hours ago, ZenGolfer said:

Being on the coast and being windswept is really what makes a links course a links course, IMO. 

This is where my opinion is different.  There are lots of windy coastal courses that aren't even close to being links courses.  As I understand it, the differentiation is in the soil itself.  Most of the original links were on sandy coastal areas which had very little agricultural use due to their sandy soil and resulting very quick drainage.  All that would grow was grass.  But that sandy quick-draining soil was GREAT for growing grass, at least certain varieties of grass.  Those characteristics, sandy and quick draining, tend to make the courses pretty firm, and THAT is the number one characteristic of a "links", the need to understand and use the terrain rather than expecting every shot to stop just about where it lands.  The views of the water and the consistently inconsistent wind are just bonuses.

Edited July 14, 2021 by DaveP043

[fixyurdivot]

On 7/12/2021 at 6:32 PM, sixcat said:

I haven’t been to Chambers yet. Planning a trip in 2022. My thoughts having never seen the property in person, they don’t need a regular Tour event. They will get another US Open or be swept up by the PGA.
 

In think the PGA would benefit from more interesting courses like Chambers. 

As I recall, the primary complaint was the Poa annua (or was it fescue?) .  Poulter was a major critic amongst others.  Clearly the tour players carry some clout.

New greens in place, Chambers Bay ponders majors future (usatoday.com)

The other knock was from we fans, and I completely agree that the course layout, or at least the manner in which they chose to arrange access, grandstands, etc., was poor.  Compared to the healthy handful of other tour events I have attended (PGA, LPGA, CT, and Am's), Chambers Bay was the worst.  Simply not enough holes open to viewing which resulted in overcrowding around the few that were.

[revkev]

I saw this thread but this morning is the first that I’ve read it.

 

The answer is simple enough, because there is no accepted definition for what a links course is. 
 

This explanation may be a bit tongue in cheek but not totally. Google it - you will get all sorts of definitions that generally talk about few if any trees and sandy mounded soil and very few water hazards.
 

Ultimately though the lack of a clear definition enables anyone to chime in and write, “That’s not a links course.” 
 

So I’ve given up on it - for me there are links like or Parkland like golf courses. 
 

I read why not Streamsong for a US Amateur BTW. That’s a simple answer, because people would die trying to walk multiple round there in August and it would take two months to get that tournament in with all the weather delays.
 

We’ve had 20 inches of rain in this part of Florida since the start of July. 

Is Pebble Beach a links course? 
 

To me it’s not but it has links in its name and is held up as an example of one in at least one article that I read and specifically called out as not being one in others.

 

Last parting shot - I’m in the camp that would like to see greater variety in your courses. We’ve had some of that this year because two alternative courses needed to be used. I enjoy watching the European Tour because of the variety in their golf courses. 
 

Funntgread but you can’t really answer the question unless you are able to define exactly what a links course is,

 

Good luck 

[sixcat]

1 hour ago, revkev said:

there is no accepted definition for what a links course is. 

I agree, there is no consensus on what defines "links" outside the UK.

However, In the UK there is a definitive and accepted understanding of what a "links" is. Just because the rest of the world doesn't accept, or tries to redefine what a links course is, doesn't mean the UK doesn't get it right.

[JeremyD]

On 7/12/2021 at 7:44 PM, sixcat said:

Outside of Bandon and National Golf Links, are there any other true links courses in the US?
 

I don’t see either of those needing to meet the demands required to host a PGA Tour event. Maybe a major championship but not a regular Tour event.

Kebo Valley Golf Course in Bar Harbor, ME, built in 1888 is a true links course. 

[sixcat]

36 minutes ago, JeremyD said:

Kebo Valley Golf Course in Bar Harbor, ME, built in 1888 is a true links course. 

Hard disagree!  It's in the middle of a forest and a mile from the coast. 

[LICC]

https://www.linksmagazine.com/the_top_10_links_like_courses_you_can_play_in_the_u_s/

[revkev]

1 hour ago, sixcat said:

I agree, there is no consensus on what defines "links" outside the UK.

However, In the UK there is a definitive and accepted understanding of what a "links" is. Just because the rest of the world doesn't accept, or tries to redefine what a links course is, doesn't mean the UK doesn't get it right.

I don't know - what if the US decided to define a golf course in way that excluded many of the courses in the UK?  How about a golf course always has trees or always has water hazards and sand?  If it's truly an international sport I think the international community gets to determine definitions and when we can't agree on one we have to live with the inconsistency.  For example if Whistling Straits wants to call itself a links golf course then that's fine with me - In fact to me it's far closer to what I think of as a links course than Pebble Beach is even though tons of dirt were moved to create it.

 

Actually to be honest I don't really care though, I enjoy golf courses and don't really think about whether or not one with lots of sand, dunes and waste areas should be categorized as links or not - to me it's a golf course, that means I like it.  Certainly there are some courses that I like more than others but if I can be out playing golf I'm generally happy.

[sixcat]

15 minutes ago, revkev said:

I don't know - what if the US decided to define a golf course in way that excluded many of the courses in the UK?  How about a golf course always has trees or always has water hazards and sand?  If it's truly an international sport I think the international community gets to determine definitions and when we can't agree on one we have to live with the inconsistency.  For example if Whistling Straits wants to call itself a links golf course then that's fine with me - In fact to me it's far closer to what I think of as a links course than Pebble Beach is even though tons of dirt were moved to create it.

 

Actually to be honest I don't really care though, I enjoy golf courses and don't really think about whether or not one with lots of sand, dunes and waste areas should be categorized as links or not - to me it's a golf course, that means I like it.  Certainly there are some courses that I like more than others but if I can be out playing golf I'm generally happy.

I think terms similar to "links-like" are mostly marketing. Madison Avenue's way to convince the audience, you don't need to go to St. Andrews to experience links golf when some contrived piece of property in Wisconsin offers something similar. Maybe I'm a old fart or a "boomer" as the kids say but tradition matters. Links began in the UK 400 years ago. They get to define it because they gave it to the rest of the world. 

Japan loves baseball as much or more than the US. The Japanese don't try to lump Cricket into the same boat and sell it to the public as being the same thing. Again, just my opinion but tradition matters. At least it does to me.

[revkev]

30 minutes ago, sixcat said:

I think terms similar to "links-like" are mostly marketing. Madison Avenue's way to convince the audience, you don't need to go to St. Andrews to experience links golf when some contrived piece of property in Wisconsin offers something similar. Maybe I'm a old fart or a "boomer" as the kids say but tradition matters. Links began in the UK 400 years ago. They get to define it because they gave it to the rest of the world. 

Japan loves baseball as much or more than the US. The Japanese don't try to lump Cricket into the same boat and sell it to the public as being the same thing. Again, just my opinion but tradition matters. At least it does to me.

I'm sorry but I don't see that analogy holding at all unless you believe that the golf played in the US or on a non links course as somehow a different sport from that played on a links course.  I never mind when you disagree with me at all.  You have strong and very good opinions so this one seems uncharacteristic.

 

There is no R and A definition or distinction about a "links" course that I could find in its rules, at least.

 

According to the Scottish golf history website it refers to the "type of soil and terrain on which it is built."  A careful read of that site implies that there's no way to be building a links course today unless you can replicate certain soil conditions found particularly along the Northeastern coast of Scotland.  If we are to accept their definitions there's an extremely simple answer to the OP's question.  There aren't more links courses because it can't be done.  

 

I know that I've played on a St. Andrews replica course in Orlando called the New Course.  It's funny to see it in Central Florida.  I've played it here in July.  While I haven't played the Old Course (Bucket list) I grew up playing in New England.  Some of the coast line there has that sandy sort of soil but there's not really the fescue that you find in Scotland so it's still a different grass. So the holes may be the same design but they don't play the same way at all.  Then again it would be pretty tough to Sawgrass in Northern Scotland.  

 

I like Tradition too but old doesn't necessarily mean better.

 

I can't go to Scotland, I'm happy that some golf course architects are willing to adopt a links style in their design or at least to pay homage to it in some way.

 

[DaveP043]

2 hours ago, LICC said:

https://www.linksmagazine.com/the_top_10_links_like_courses_you_can_play_in_the_u_s/

An interesting read, and its interesting that the authors used the term "links-like".  Their definition is similar to mine:

Quote

Malcolm and I took a slightly more relaxed stance, requiring only that the course be near the sea, that its turf be sand based and grown with fescue grass on terrain that is open, firm, and fast-running, and that the site be exposed to the elements. 

Also interesting that they list Arcadia Bluffs, on the east side of Lake Michigan, but don't list Whistling Straits on the west side, I'd be interested to understand their reasoning.   In reading this, it seems it was done in 2015 before the US Open at Chambers Bay, I wonder if the list might change to include some more recently opened courses.

Also interesting, and contradicting what I said earlier, the literature for Sand Valley and Mammoth Dunes in WI liken it to the English Heathland courses, rather than to the Links courses.  From the way I read it, heathland courses are similar to links from a soils and agronomy basis (sandy, firm, largely fescue grass) but are inland rather than in or near coastal dunes.

[sixcat]

25 minutes ago, revkev said:

I'm sorry but I don't see that analogy holding at all unless you believe that the golf played in the US or on a non links course as somehow a different sport from that played on a links course.  I never mind when you disagree with me at all.  You have strong and very good opinions so this one seems uncharacteristic.

 

There is no R and A definition or distinction about a "links" course that I could find in its rules, at least.

 

According to the Scottish golf history website it refers to the "type of soil and terrain on which it is built."  A careful read of that site implies that there's no way to be building a links course today unless you can replicate certain soil conditions found particularly along the Northeastern coast of Scotland.  If we are to accept their definitions there's an extremely simple answer to the OP's question.  There aren't more links courses because it can't be done.  

 

I know that I've played on a St. Andrews replica course in Orlando called the New Course.  It's funny to see it in Central Florida.  I've played it here in July.  While I haven't played the Old Course (Bucket list) I grew up playing in New England.  Some of the coast line there has that sandy sort of soil but there's not really the fescue that you find in Scotland so it's still a different grass. So the holes may be the same design but they don't play the same way at all.  Then again it would be pretty tough to Sawgrass in Northern Scotland.  

 

I like Tradition too but old doesn't necessarily mean better.

 

I can't go to Scotland, I'm happy that some golf course architects are willing to adopt a links style in their design or at least to pay homage to it in some way.

 

Somewhat clumsy analogy on my part. Try this one on for size.

Hyundai makes a fine automobile. Simply because Hyundai's logo resembles Honda doesn't mean they are equal in any way. Both serve the needs of the travelling public. One has significantly higher resale value and a history of reliability. The other doesn't!

Yes, I have strong opinions. I believe what I believe and aren't easily swayed. It is what it is!

[revkev]

51 minutes ago, sixcat said:

Somewhat clumsy analogy on my part. Try this one on for size.

Hyundai makes a fine automobile. Simply because Hyundai's logo resembles Honda doesn't mean they are equal in any way. Both serve the needs of the travelling public. One has significantly higher resale value and a history of reliability. The other doesn't!

Yes, I have strong opinions. I believe what I believe and aren't easily swayed. It is what it is!

And you know I don’t mind that.

Much better analogy, yes. 
 

Do you agree that it would, by definition of the Scottish golf history society, be almost impossible to build another links course? It’s pretty hard to replicate that anywhere here because we don’t have the turf for it. 

[sixcat]

13 minutes ago, revkev said:

Do you agree that it would, by definition of the Scottish golf history society, be almost impossible to build another links course? It’s pretty hard to replicate that anywhere here because we don’t have the turf for it. 

I do agree. Not only do we not have the turf, we don't have the seaside land available anywhere in the world to replicate it. Bandon would come the closest but even then, it's not exact. Whistling Straits isn't close in my opinion. It's contrived and doesn't resemble anything else in the surrounding area.

I harken back to Rory McIlroy's interview from earlier in the week. When asked about the history of the best players in the world complaining about the humps, bumps and blind shots at Royal St. George's, Rory said (paraphrasing) "it's links golf. It's not meant to be fair. You're forced to control your ball. The game is played as much on the ground as it is in the air. I'm just happy to be back playing links golf again. It's been, what, two years since Portrush?"

The reporter followed up by asking if he meant Open Championship golf or links golf? After all, the PGA was at Kiawah? Rory smiled and said "Kiawah isn't links golf! It's not an apples to apples comparison. I'm not sure your still comparing fruit at that point. It's apples to onions."