Planned 2030 Golf Ball Rollback

[fixyurdivot]

Non-neutered balls inventory = [Avg. # of balls I use/year] x [# of years until I quit playing]

In the words of Inspector Clouseau... "problem sol-ved". 

 

[Another Steve]

5 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

The difference is they are trying to put the toothpaste back in the tube to suit their desired method for how golf should be played. We have had the same ball ods for more along time, the current ball has been on the market since 2000 when the Prov1 came out, the current driver size has been the standard since 2003 and the current CT test the standard since 2004. They had the chance in 2003-2005 to do something about the explosion in distance but choose not too. They could have set the driver size at 300ish cc or anywhere under 460 because nobody was even remotely close to 460 when they made the decision.

The previous concerns came when the change in distance was’t that great. The average distance gains in the 80s are the same as they are since the early 2000s. Yet they didn’t try to rollback the game in the 80s. The ruling bodies have a terrible foresight of issues and some think they should still be trusted with this move

I don’t necessarily disagree with you on the toothpaste and not going far enough in the early 2000’s but IIRC everyone had their panties bunched up every bit as much as now because they were getting a taste for titanium toaster headed drivers. But the USGA seems to have been trying to keep the toothpaste in that tube for over 80 years!

1942 they first implemented the Initial ball velocity  standard. With the goal to freeze the distance qualities of the ball at the length of the 1941 ball

1970 joint committee on uniform ball

1973  concerned with aerodynamic dimples and graphite shafts may make current distance regulations inadequate had meetings with mfg leading to outdoor and  indoor ball testing

1974 development of ODS becomes priority 

1976 implements ODS with the stated goal of limiting future technological development aimed at increasing the distance a golf ball can travel. 280 yards +8% with no intent to reduce to 4% when test techniques improved 

1986 ODS tolerance reduced from 8% to 4%

1998 usga announces plans to develop and implement tests for golfballs and clubs to strengthen standards designed to limit the distance the the most highly skilled golfers can drive the golf ball  

2002 adoption of COR and phase 1 adjustment to ODS 235fps ball speed 291.2 +5.6 yard distance

2004 adopts  max clubhead dimensionas well as CT limit. Phase 2 adjustment to ODS 120mph clubhead 317 +3 yard distance 

2006 MOI standard

2008 interim additional CT driver face test locations

2010 groove rule

Source: https://www.usga.org/content/dam/usga/pdf/Equipment/History of Equipment Rules.pdf

 

 

My prediction is that this too shall pass. I will be 65 come 2030 and I am still playing the irons that I built in 1999 and they are a blade/cb combo with the old non-jacked lofts. 

Edited December 24, 2023 by Another Steve

[Another Steve]

3 hours ago, storm319 said:

There is a big difference between additional regulation on something that has not been reached or widely adopted  vs changes to an existing regulation that will deem equipment non-conforming that has been perfectly legal for decades. 

Many feel that the rbs have not provided sufficient justification for this and that their goals have no realistic chance of being achieved with the current decision. Given the rbs poor track record with respect to equipment regulation (most relevantly being the 2010 groove rollback), I feel they have earned the criticism.

 

 

Like it or not the USGA and R&A are the bodies that are responsible for making the rules and protecting the integrity of the game. They are well within the scope of their duties to rule on equipment performance and legality. They have the unenviable job of trying to reign in the technology and They’ve been trying to manage these technology advances for 80 plus years….as i listed above . At some point maybe they gotta just draw a thick red line and say it stops here…..  the problem is that they waited to long and there are now too many self important narcissists out there who’s needs, wants, and feelings are more important than the integrity of the game….. 

 

 

nd someone tell those clouds to get off my lawn, I’m tired of yelling at them!

 

[RickyBobby_PR]

9 hours ago, PMookie said:

I say there will be, but it’s a guess like anyone else… Literally 99% of golfers don’t need a rolled-back ball and it will be local rule, so my thinking is that they’ll keep manufacturing. No one knows for sure…

It’s. It a local rule. That went out the door on 12/6 when the ruling bodies decided there would be a new ODS test for all confirming balls.

The big manufacturers aren’t going to continue to produce non conforming balls, just like they don’t produce non conforming clubs now. 

It really doesn’t have anything with handicaps or playing in competitions. It’s about the ruling bodies being out of touch with the game and making devious that will have no effect on the pro game and make it harder on the regular golfer. 

[RickyBobby_PR]

4 hours ago, Another Steve said:

At some point maybe they gotta just draw a thick red line and say it stops here…..  the problem is that they waited to long and there are now too many self important narcissists out there who’s needs, wants, and feelings are more important than the integrity of the game….. 

the data shows that the current standards aren’t gong to allow some explosion of distance. The measures in place for the last twenty years are just fine as is. Pros have found the sweet spot to be about 180mph ball speed with some a little over it. Theres no need for them to go past that to have success on tour. Bryson has shown us that the current design limits the effectiveness of keeping the ball in play end you start pushing into the 190 range.

Mike Whan has stated that golf is healthy. So if the sport is healthy why take it backwards. To date nobody has provided objective data showing why the distance the pros hit the ball currently is a problem. 
 

Nothing like calling people names who believe the ruling bodies are acting in their own interests rather than the interests of the sport or its members.

The groove rule is a perfect example. They messed that up so bad they have chosen to not give the 4 year warning that it will take effect, so as of now unless a local rule is implemented banning the old grooves they are still legal to use 

[silver & black]

7 hours ago, Another Steve said:

. At some point maybe they gotta just draw a thick red line and say it stops here…..

I think most of us would be happy with stopping things where they are. There is no bennefit to continuing with the 'taking away' of what has been played/used for the last 20 years or so. Most other sports/games continue to improve with new tech. Why does golf think it needs to go backward?

[storm319]

8 hours ago, Another Steve said:

 

Like it or not the USGA and R&A are the bodies that are responsible for making the rules and protecting the integrity of the game. They are well within the scope of their duties to rule on equipment performance and legality. They have the unenviable job of trying to reign in the technology and They’ve been trying to manage these technology advances for 80 plus years….as i listed above . At some point maybe they gotta just draw a thick red line and say it stops here…..  the problem is that they waited to long and there are now too many self important narcissists out there who’s needs, wants, and feelings are more important than the integrity of the game….. 

 

 

nd someone tell those clouds to get off my lawn, I’m tired of yelling at them!

 

They already drew lines decades ago with equipment and have regulated pretty much everything that is meaningful to distance. This rollback is more akin moving the line back further. Limiting something that hasn’t been reached yet is not as big of a deal since people won’t really miss what they never had, however people tend to not like it when something is taken away from them especially when it has been the norm for so long. 

To be honest, the rbs had more justification for a ball rollback in the early 2000s (not to mention should have  adopted a more aggressive head size limit earlier), but the data over the past two decades does not support their course lengthening/sustainability claims thus making this universal decision irresponsible.

[fixyurdivot]

7 hours ago, Another Steve said:

 

Like it or not the USGA and R&A are the bodies that are responsible for making the rules and protecting the integrity of the game. They are well within the scope of their duties to rule on equipment performance and legality. They have the unenviable job of trying to reign in the technology and They’ve been trying to manage these technology advances for 80 plus years….as i listed above . At some point maybe they gotta just draw a thick red line and say it stops here…..  the problem is that they waited to long and there are now too many self important narcissists out there who’s needs, wants, and feelings are more important than the integrity of the game….. 

 

 

nd someone tell those clouds to get off my lawn, I’m tired of yelling at them!

 

Nice chronology of the USGA's milestone efforts to protect the integrity of the game.  At this point however, one needs to ask what integrity exactly are they trying to protect? What era of golf should the game be rolled back to? 

The pro game has changed appreciably since 1980 and specifically since Tiger entered the field.  He started a movement. The development of other technologies, that the USGA and R&A have no control over, also hit the scene and younger players realize those are everybit as important or more so than the club and ball. The vast majority seemed giddy with the new age player and the bomb and gouge strategy. Everyone was and still is making lots of money.  Who wants to change that?  Better yet, why should we?

Golf isn't the only sport that has changed over the years.  I'm sure tennis pros from the 60's and 70's are gobsmacked seeing first service speeds of todays players.  The ITF is the caretaker of tennis and their charter also contains the words "integrity of the game".  But again exactly what intergrity exactly do they protect?  Is today's pro tennis game adversely impacting the integrity? Are the higher serving and volley speeds, which effectively make the court smaller, ruining the integrity of the game?

The game of professional golf, like other sports has changed and the USGA and R&A need to change along with it.  This "protect the integrity of the game" mantra is outdated and overused... particularly when 99.5% of players are not part of the perceived or real excessive distance problem.  They are completely out of touch with those they claim to represent.

 

[DaveP043]

After all of this, I wonder what the group thinks is likely to happen.  We've seen reports released over the past few years, intended subjects for further study, proposed MLR plan, and finally an actual course of action.  At every single stage that Ruling Bodies have solicited feedback from everyone involved.  Does anyone think that the hue and cry over the final decision will send the Ruling Bodies back to the drawing board?  Will they re-start the cycle of proposal, feedback, and decision?  

My best guess, this is going to happen.  No entity wants the responsibility of governing, nobody will "replace" the USGA and/or R&A.  Manufacturers will research and produce balls to fit the revised testing procedures.  And we'll all adjust.  

And I hope we'll all remain friends, Marry Christmas to all!

Edited December 24, 2023 by DaveP043

[fixyurdivot]

24 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

After all of this, I wonder what the group thinks is likely to happen.  We've seen reports released over the past few years, intended subjects for further study, proposed MLR plan, and finally an actual course of action.  At every single stage that Ruling Bodies have solicited feedback from everyone involved.  Does anyone think that the hue and cry over the final decision will send the Ruling Bodies back to the drawing board?  Will they re-start the cycle of proposal, feedback, and decision?  

My best guess, this is going to happen.  No entity wants the responsibility of governing, nobody will "replace" the USGA and/or R&A.  Manufacturers will research and produce balls to fit the revised testing procedures.  And we'll all adjust.  

And I hope we'll all remain friends, Marry Christmas to all!

I think you meant to say "my best guess, this is not going to happen". And, to answer your question, yes, I think they should listen to post announcement sentiment of players worldwide... at least 80% of which thinks the ball rollback isn't needed and certainly not for amateur play.  

A huge percentage of Joe golfers don't follow the on-goings of golf happenings to any depths; even less so what the USGA and R&A are up to.  Yes they solicited feedback and received some from the very small population of players who do follow such things... you for example.  But just because they may not have received this degree of negative feedback then does not mean they should ignore it now.  There is nothing dire about this "distance issue" that warrants staying the course... except pride perhaps.

And finally, who's to say this 33 feet reduction protects the "integrity of the game"?  What exactly is that?  I mean the course designs in Scotland and Ireland were/are certainly different than here in the wild, wild west. Maybe we should be rolling back to the 1920, 1950, or 1970 distances.

 

 

 

 

[RickyBobby_PR]

1 hour ago, fixyurdivot said:

to ask what integrity exactly are they trying to protect? What era of golf should the game be rolled back to? 

 

Exactly. The rollback will have the golfers who hit the ball the distance of the 80s and 90s out of the game and only those who can hit it 300+ left

1 hour ago, fixyurdivot said:

Golf isn't the only sport that has changed over the years.  I'm sure tennis pros from the 60's and 70's are gobsmacked seeing first service speeds of todays players.  The ITF is the caretaker of tennis and their charter also contains the words "integrity of the game".  But again exactly what intergrity exactly do they protect?  Is today's pro tennis game adversely impacting the integrity? Are the higher serving and volley speeds, which effectively make the court smaller, ruining the integrity of the game?

Be careful the baseball changed its rules and equipment crowd will come out in support of bifurcation while ignoring that it costs a lot of money to play wood bats at the amateur level. I know I played it for awhile as an adult. It’s a coupe bats a season minimum for most players. Not to mention the mound was reduced to improve offense 

1 hour ago, fixyurdivot said:

The game of professional golf, like other sports has changed and the USGA and R&A need to change along with it.  This "protect the integrity of the game" mantra is outdated and overused... particularly when 99.5% of players are not part of the perceived or real excessive distance problem.  They are completely out of touch with those they claim to represent.

Agree. Plus they are adding in a potential for lack of integrity and have someone use a non confirming ball in tournaments 

[RickyBobby_PR]

1 hour ago, DaveP043 said:

After all of this, I wonder what the group thinks is likely to happen.  We've seen reports released over the past few years, intended subjects for further study, proposed MLR plan, and finally an actual course of action.  At every single stage that Ruling Bodies have solicited feedback from everyone involved.  Does anyone think that the hue and cry over the final decision will send the Ruling Bodies back to the drawing board?  Will they re-start the cycle of proposal, feedback, and decision?  

My best guess, this is going to happen.  No entity wants the responsibility of governing, nobody will "replace" the USGA and/or R&A.  Manufacturers will research and produce balls to fit the revised testing procedures.  And we'll all adjust.  

And I hope we'll all remain friends, Marry Christmas to all!

If the ruling bodies actually listened to the feedback they would have abandoned the thought after the comment period. But Martin Slumbers players their hand when he said “doing nothing isn’t and option”

That told everyone a rollback was coming. Will they change gears before 2028. Maybe but highly unlikely 

The risk is greater than the reward on this decision. If distance doesn’t change in tour they look silly, although they are  anticipating this to have to have no effect so that they have what they consider leverage to take further steps. They played their hand already saying they are looking at driver head size. If this was going to achieve their goal they wouldn’t be talking future equipment changes.

 

[DaveP043]

2 hours ago, fixyurdivot said:

I think you meant to say "my best guess, this is not going to happen"

No, I believe the new test procedures will go into effect.  There are only so many cycles of proposal/comment that make any sense.  Its all been said, opinions have been heard, and a decision has been reached.  

 

[RickyBobby_PR]

28 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

No, I believe the new test procedures will go into effect.  There are only so many cycles of proposal/comment that make any sense.  Its all been said, opinions have been heard, and a decision has been reached.  

 

There as a decision made about grooves yet the ruling bodies have let that just go without making the final announcement.

Theres still a chance that they do that with this decision however it probably unlikely.

also unlikely but also a possibility the pga tour and dp world tour says nope and they separate from the ruling bodies. Plenty of time for them to create their own rules 

[fixyurdivot]

17 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

No, I believe the new test procedures will go into effect.  There are only so many cycles of proposal/comment that make any sense.  Its all been said, opinions have been heard, and a decision has been reached.  

 

Oop's misread... my bad.  Still, they are hearing lots of negative feedback now and that should get them re-thinking the decision. Should being the operative word if they honestly give two $h##'s about what the playing public feels about the matter.

Saying it's "all been said and opinions heard" sounds great but isn't true.  As I mentioned earlier, they heard from a very small percentage of amateur players simply because the vast majority do not follow such matters that closely.  I suspect you do follow more closely than most given your interest in the rules side of the game and taken part in USGA rules testing, etc. 

But now that the news of the ball rollback is getting around, the majority are not in favor of the ruling.  Do you suppose had they heard that amount of negative feedback before making the decision they would have still done so? And what about this rather vague term "protecting the integrity of the game"?  What exactly are they protecting?

 

[MajorCavalry]

I started playing golf with inexpensive Macgregor Mike Souchac forged blade irons and laminated woods. Who knew what shafts were in them. And cheap golf balls. Could never afford Titleist.  Loved the game!

As I got older and could afford better clubs.  Had Ping Eye2 with the soon to be illegal grooves and Toney Penna Persimmon woods.  Even was able to afford Titleist golf balls.  Loved the game!

Now I have the modern Callaway “woods” and Miura irons and Titleist Pro V1 golf balls.  I still love the game but no more than before.  The equipment did not create my love for the game but it made it a bit easier.

if the ball rolls back I really don’t care.  My course will likely adjust all the tee boxes a bit so our games won’t suffer. Might even make the course more desirable for the longer hitters who have left because it is too short for them.   My love for the game has never been dictated by the equipment or my driving distance.

[RickyBobby_PR]

1 hour ago, MajorCavalry said:

if the ball rolls back I really don’t care.  My course will likely adjust all the tee boxes a bit so our games won’t suffer.

I doubt it. With the proposed 3-5 yard loss the ruling bodies are claiming that’s not enough to move tee boxes up to compensate for the loss. So you will more than likely be playing the course the same way as now except with longer second and third shots on par 4s and 5s and longer tee shots on par 3s

[fixyurdivot]

This guy gets it.  He and a majority of tour players oppose the ball rollback... you know, 9+ months ago when the ruling bodies were soliciting input.  Might LIV be the genesis of a move away from the USGA and R&A as well?  The game has changed.

 

 

[GolfSpy_APH]

I know not an actual comparison, but for those really against all this. When the tees are set far back in the tee box so the hole effectively plays 5 to 10 yards longer than a middle or front tee placement is that upsetting? 

Most courses do a good job I'd rotating pin placements as well. But my course has 6 placements. 5/6 are the easiest by far, playing 4 shots easier. 3/4 are not bad but definitely the middle setup and 1/2 are just mean. Take away most of the best scoring opportunities.

Or course I know combined with a rollback ball it could be magnified, but if things were setup just more difficult or long one day over the next 6 years are these things that are truly upsetting or make someone not want to play? 

I ask because a few of these things can have a far greater impact than say 5 yards off the driver with a rollback ball. 

Again I know combining them magnifies it. But curious on thought processes for these situations now as is.

[Preeway]

3 minutes ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

I know not an actual comparison, but for those really against all this. When the tees are set far back in the tee box so the hole effectively plays 5 to 10 yards longer than a middle or front tee placement is that upsetting? 

Most courses do a good job I'd rotating pin placements as well. But my course has 6 placements. 5/6 are the easiest by far, playing 4 shots easier. 3/4 are not bad but definitely the middle setup and 1/2 are just mean. Take away most of the best scoring opportunities.

Or course I know combined with a rollback ball it could be magnified, but if things were setup just more difficult or long one day over the next 6 years are these things that are truly upsetting or make someone not want to play? 

I ask because a few of these things can have a far greater impact than say 5 yards off the driver with a rollback ball. 

Again I know combining them magnifies it. But curious on thought processes for these situations now as is.

This is so on point. It’s one thing to be against the rollback for philosophical reasons. It’s just a bad idea. I get it. But all the data being used to determine how much distance will be lost is also based on a robot hitting the exact same drive every time. If I hit driver 12-14 times per round, I might make perfect contact on the perfect line like 3-4 times. The rest will vary anywhere from very good to “oh crap”. Which means even with the current ball I will lose 5-10 yards just based on missing the center of the face. So, like you say, moving the tees back or a slight miss can lead to similar outcomes. And it’s never detracted from my enjoyment of the game. 

[Randall Robbins]

Always going to have nasty pin positions so it's something you live with and trust you can get close or up and down without giving back too many shots.  As to the rollback itself by the time it goes in, I will be 76, so I probably won't see much of a difference by then, plus I will like be playing  a more forward set of tees by then anyway. LOL

[fixyurdivot]

19 minutes ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

I know not an actual comparison, but for those really against all this. When the tees are set far back in the tee box so the hole effectively plays 5 to 10 yards longer than a middle or front tee placement is that upsetting? 

Most courses do a good job I'd rotating pin placements as well. But my course has 6 placements. 5/6 are the easiest by far, playing 4 shots easier. 3/4 are not bad but definitely the middle setup and 1/2 are just mean. Take away most of the best scoring opportunities.

Or course I know combined with a rollback ball it could be magnified, but if things were setup just more difficult or long one day over the next 6 years are these things that are truly upsetting or make someone not want to play? 

I ask because a few of these things can have a far greater impact than say 5 yards off the driver with a rollback ball. 

Again I know combining them magnifies it. But curious on thought processes for these situations now as is.

You are correct, it is not an actual comparison.  Like pin locations, those are not permanent changes and largely done for the purpose of letting the turf re-grow.  Plus, most courses rotate these such that when a few holes play longer, a few others play shorter.

Sorry Jamie, putting lipstick on a pig doesn't change the fact that it's still a pig .

[RickyBobby_PR]

5 minutes ago, fixyurdivot said:

You are correct, it is not an actual comparison.  Like pin locations, those are not permanent changes and largely done for the purpose of letting the turf re-grow.  Plus, most courses rotate these such that when a few holes play longer, a few others play shorter.

Sorry Jamie, putting lipstick on a pig doesn't change the fact that it's still a pig .

Agree. That’s just playing the course the way it is. Now you get to play the course the way it is but longer from the same tees you normally play and for some no option to choose shorter tees.

Iys the ruling bodies trying to change the game to fit their desires and nothing else.

Still waiting for someone to provide something objective to say why pros hitting an average of 300 off the tee is bad for the game especially the pro game. Or of everyone was hitting it tha same distance as Rory now or in 5,10,15 years. 
 

The ruling bodies haven’t said what it solves either and how it makes the game better. Changes should bring a positive change 

[fixyurdivot]

Just imagine Tony's surprise when he slices open balls in 2030 and finds this inside .

I'll show my way to the door now... have a Merry Christmas everyone!

[chisag]

[Another Steve]

I really think that they are trying to go back and do what they think they should have done/wanted to do in 2004……

Personally, I am less concerned about losing 5 or 10 yards off the driver than the potential lost ball performance into/around the green. So, Am I gonna lose sleep or get my panties bunched up over any rollback…. Nope. I will play the course as it is in front of me with the equipment I have in hand as that IS the game.

To look at it from a different perspective - Yes, losing 15 yards is significant, but I have seen that much variation week to week caused by the placement of the tee markers. One course i play has long and multiple tee boxes on most holes. One hole is a par 4 with a single ~12’ wide x 75 yard long tee box on the left edge of the hole with OB along the entire left side (with a lake running the full length of it on the right side) That tee box houses gold/blue/white tees with a separate small oval 30 yards in front of it used for red/gold tees. I have seen them have blue/white/gold 10 yards apart starting at the front one day and rear the next. How about “losing or gaining up to 60 yards on a par 4 week to week”? You gonna ****** to the proshop about the tee placements costing you yards?  

Edited December 25, 2023 by Another Steve

[Another Steve]

Side note since someone else brought up the PGA splitting from the USGA…. I seem to vaguely remember that almost happening 20 or so years ago. Was that over square grooves or some other change?

[RickyBobby_PR]

34 minutes ago, Another Steve said:

Yes, losing 15 yards is significant, but I have seen that much variation week to week caused by the placement of the tee markers

That’s not distance loss that’s course setup. As @fixyurdivot said, that’s just slapping lipstick on a pig. 

[fixyurdivot]

7 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

That’s not distance loss that’s course setup. As @fixyurdivot said, that’s just slapping lipstick on a pig. 

Speaking of "course set-up" and the "excessive distance issue on tour"...  problem meet solution.

[Jeremy26]

On 12/23/2023 at 10:12 AM, PMookie said:

Haven’t read much of this lately, but if the rollback will hit us golfers then golf ball manufacturers will make a mint off unregulated balls in the marketplace. The only time one would have to play a “legal” ball is in competition and so few golfers ever play in tournaments. Yeah, they could charge double per dozen and sell out each year if this isn’t reversed by 2030.

All of the guys that I regularly play with (40 or so of us), have already started accumulating balls. Whether it be buying dozens upon dozens of new balls, collecting all of our found balls, or purchasing used lots from places like Lost Golf Balls. We figure we'll have more than enough between us, to never have to buy balls again after 2030.