Differences in courses

[GolfSpy WD]

I'm someone who tends to play the munis mostly. Last night I was watching some show on the Golf Channel where Bernhard Langer was talking about how you want to look at if the green is dark or shiny in order to see the direction it's cut.

 

So today I'm out on the course and look at the greens to try to figure out the grain and there isn't one. It looked like they took a scythe to the green and didn't give a damn about the grain. This got me thinking maybe this is one of those things you only get by paying the big bucks for a nice course, sort of like how the fairways are mowed so well on PGA courses that the players get quite a boost in distance.

 

Anyway, this was all a long winded way to ask how many of you have played both nice and not-so-nice courses and how much of a difference did you perceive? Do you think it actually effected your score playing on a poorly maintained course?

[sai-jin]

I think I'd be fortunate to play courses like yours.

 

Here even courses that are around $50 will gave greens that have bald patches , dead divot marks, uneven grain, soil, etc.

 

So the ball won't travel true, thus really messing with scoring. I paid attention to these courses and I can tell that my ball jumps around from start to finish.

 

People here are terrible golfers who have no manners and no consideration on the quality of the course. I even had to throw away beer cans that were left on the tee box and green.

 

Courses that are far away and around $100 is a bit better but overall the golfers here again are just meh.

 

So yes, I definitely see the quality of the green affecting my score for sure.

 

PS: I truly despise playing the munis here, unless I'm just out to practice certain things and test equipments.

[GolfSpy WD]

I think I'd be fortunate to play courses like yours.

 

Here even courses that are around $50 will gave greens that have bald patches , dead divot marks, uneven grain, soil, etc.

 

So the ball won't travel true, thus really messing with scoring. I paid attention to these courses and I can tell that my ball jumps around from start to finish.

 

People here are terrible golfers who have no manners and no consideration on the quality of the course. I even had to throw away beer cans that were left on the tee box and green.

 

Courses that are far away and around $100 is a bit better but overall the golfers here again are just meh.

 

So yes, I definitely see the quality of the green affecting my score for sure.

 

PS: I truly despise playing the munis here, unless I'm just out to practice certain things and test equipments.

 

This year I have the fortune of playing a lot in Syracuse which runs $30 for 18 holes + cart for myself and they more often than not don't charge for my son.

 

In Boston, same course conditions, I expect to pay twice as much.

 

A nice course seems to run $90+ a person for 18 + cart.

[sai-jin]

speaking of greens, would you repair other people's ball marks when every time you play there's more and more?

 

I used to do that, but I become so tired of it and I stopped. I'm still taking other people's trash out, but that will stop too

eventually if it keeps happening.

[GolfSpy WD]

My son and I can do 18 in 3.5 hours usually when in a cart, so I'm always repairing ball marks.

 

Back on topic though. Have you played any really nice courses?

[sai-jin]

Yes, I have. Unfortunately those courses are usually around $70-$100 and it's 2 hours away. So I play those maybe 1-2 times a year.

 

I'm going to Myrtle Beach for a vacation soon, so I'm sure that'd be even better.

[Blade]

I play munis mostly. They're pretty good around here. One is kind of challenging with a lot of slopes and terrain changes. The other day I played Paako Ridge for the first time. The greens were lumpy from aerating them, so putting was not good. Other than that, AWESOME! If anyone comes here to play, don't miss it! Beautiful setting and very interesting and challenging course.

 

I've played another somewhat pricey course nearby that was in great shape except the bunkers had more rocks than sand I swear. I hit a 6i out of a fairway bunker and put a gouge on the sole of my club. Still tics me off when I see it. The muni I've played the most has great soft sand. The one that's more challenging has rockier bunkers. The greens are usually in decent condition. As long as I get to go play, I don't complain too much if it's not perfect. I'm just happy to be there.

[wbealsd]

I can't find the article online, but a few years ago Sioux Falls, SD was rated highly in one of the major golf magazines for the quality and prices of the courses in the area. Of course, that's only true when it's not snowing (like it is right now...)

 

We really do have a number of quality courses at reasonable prices, but the price is a shorter season for playing.

[RoverRick]

I'm someone who tends to play the munis mostly. Last night I was watching some show on the Golf Channel where Bernhard Langer was talking about how you want to look at if the green is dark or shiny in order to see the direction it's cut.

 

So today I'm out on the course and look at the greens to try to figure out the grain and there isn't one. It looked like they took a scythe to the green and didn't give a damn about the grain. This got me thinking maybe this is one of those things you only get by paying the big bucks for a nice course, sort of like how the fairways are mowed so well on PGA courses that the players get quite a boost in distance.

 

Anyway, this was all a long winded way to ask how many of you have played both nice and not-so-nice courses and how much of a difference did you perceive? Do you think it actually effected your score playing on a poorly maintained course?

 

WD, While I will not argue that maintenance is a key issue in greens, it is not the only issue. There are five or six different types of grass on greens but the main two are bentgrass and bermuda. Bentgrass which are widely used up north are not as grainy and much smoother than bermuda. While there are newer variations of Bermuda like the Tiff Eagle, they are still grainy when compared to the Bentgrass greens. Due to the hotter temperatures and sunlight etc. Bentgrass is simply not practical here in the south. I understand that there will probably be people chiming in saying that such and such course have bentgrass and it is south but these greens are basically air conditioned in order to keep the grass from dying in the heat.

 

In the south you have Bermuda greens, and as I said some are grainier than others, Today I had several putts that were more effected by the grain and the wind than the slope. When you have to factor in the slope of the green, the grain of the grass and the wind into a putt it can make for a really tough day down here in the south.

 

I remember the first time I went up north I could not figure out which way the grain was because the bentgrass. I think I three puttted every hole and certainly did not putt them out. I may have gotten one ball in the hole all day.

[Blade]

Rick, that's funny you mention that. The other day at Paako, where the greens had been aerated, I swear, I hit a side hill putt expecting it to break downhill toward the hole of course. It broke uphill! Several putts that should have had break that I planned for didn't move at all. There was no telling how the ball would roll. I was rolling it on the line I picked just fine. It just wouldn't do what I thought it would. I made one decent putt all day from 12 feet I think it was. Other than that, wasn't making anything.

[whiskey golf]

I don't play at a lot of very high end golf courses but have had my share of them. My home courses' greens are pretty crappy. This past year they got a fungus, took forever to heal, still have patches of crap, and now they are trying to replace them by putting patches of green from another course and it's pretty dumb if you ask me. I believe it affects my scoring, because the ball bumps and is not true. There are plenty of municipals around that have very nice greens and I enjoy them. Sure, they may not have the best manicured fairways or rough but at least the greens are good. I don't mind the fairway so much unless it's just dead with bald spots and all that but if the greens are crap, then it won't be the best way to play. They don't have to be Augusta quality but they should be suitable enough to where you don't have to question your putting constantly due to the green alone and its condition.

[RoverRick]

One of the key issues in course maintenance is water. Last year we got 10 new greens and they are building a new clubhouse/restaurant/bar but they are also building an additional lake. This has been talked about for years but now that they are actually digging the hole it is something to see. I never realized how much dirt was in a lake. Three fairways will be totally different and at least 2 tee boxes appear to be 20 feet higher on hills they are building with this dirt.

Also we have had some nice rain this year and greens are awesome as are the tee boxes and the fairways are growing up. No amount of care and commitment can make up for water.

[JMiller]

I'm someone who tends to play the munis mostly. Last night I was watching some show on the Golf Channel where Bernhard Langer was talking about how you want to look at if the green is dark or shiny in order to see the direction it's cut.

 

So today I'm out on the course and look at the greens to try to figure out the grain and there isn't one. It looked like they took a scythe to the green and didn't give a damn about the grain. This got me thinking maybe this is one of those things you only get by paying the big bucks for a nice course, sort of like how the fairways are mowed so well on PGA courses that the players get quite a boost in distance.

Having worked on a golf course in college as a greens mower / maintenance guy I think I might be able to help you out here.

 

Grain is just the direction in which the grass lays. If the color of the grass is a glossy silver the blades are laying away from your perspective and is "down grain". If they are laying towards you then it would look like a deep lush green very dull looking and is "into the grain".

 

Where a mower comes in is that it pushes the blades of grass over slightly in the direction of which it is cutting. the grass will always be pushed over in the direction which the mower was heading. If the mower was heading away from you then it's silver / down grain. IF the mower was heading towards you then the grass is dark green and it is into the grain. It is a very subtle different in terms of speed a lot of times because the natural grass growing in a given direction, or natural grain will take over later in the day for greens.

 

Where it is the most noticeable is in fairways that are cut in a clock manner to see down grain versus into the grain from the tee box to the green. A clock pattern is where you cut the fairway in a clock manner, so you start on the other side going clockwise when you are done you will have roughly a straight line down the middle of the fairway one side silver the other side green. The theory is with the clock cutting of fairways you get a "fast side" and a "slow side" maybe you remember this from the masters tournament before they started cutting all the fairways from the green back towards the tee so that the entire fairway would be into the grain.

 

Clock style fairway cut:

 

Diamond pattern fairway cut (double cut)

 

Single stripe (the faded cuts straight down the fairway are from the previous day)

 

 

 

Anyway, this was all a long winded way to ask how many of you have played both nice and not-so-nice courses and how much of a difference did you perceive? Do you think it actually effected your score playing on a poorly maintained course?

 

Well, the major difference between a high end course and a not as well maintained course is almost always the maintenance budgets. For example Augusta National Golf Club has an unlimited budget to do whatever they want, so the fairways are likely to be cut at the same grass length as some municipal courses greens would be cut. The fairways on tour probably run a an 8 or so roughly on the stimp of that tells you anything.

 

What will screw me up the most is when the course is in REAL bad shape. The tee boxes and fairways have a grass height of what my home course would call the first cut of rough. 1/4 of the ball is sitting bellow the top of the blades of grass. On par 3s this is more noticeable because I only tee the ball up enough on well maintained tee boxes so that the bottom of the ball is just above the blades of grass the head of the tee is only thing sticking out roughly. When the grass is that lone at that tee height the grass still covers the bottom of the ball, it messes with me visually on the tee box. Then in the fairway you shouldn't be having to play out of very light rough

 

If the greens are slow and/or bumpy it effects me the most. Slow greens that roll true are better then fast greens that bounce everywhere I will admit that. I personally don't like slow greens, it's not even really a mechanical issue in my stroke either. It's mostly speed on down slopes, it absolutely annoys the hell out of me when the ball stops 1/2 way down a slope while traveling downhill. I played the thing to pick up speed with gravity down the slope not slow down because the grass is longer then the pitch of the slope is to pull the ball down to the flat.

 

Having cut greens for 3 summers in a row 7 days a week in college, I hold the opinion that without good greens you don't have a golf course you have a got track.

[Kor.A.Door]

speaking of greens, would you repair other people's ball marks when every time you play there's more and more?

 

I used to do that, but I become so tired of it and I stopped. I'm still taking other people's trash out, but that will stop too

eventually if it keeps happening.

 

 

I will always always always repair as many ball marks that I can find, yes, I get tired of it too, but if we as people who care about the game like we say we do, should do it because its the right thing to do. There are a lot of people who don't fix any, so I find myself on some holes fixing 10 to 15 at a time. It only takes a second to do one, so continue to do so, and maybe more people will pick up on it and help out. Don't stop fixing even though it it gets tiring to do.

[Kor.A.Door]

Having worked on a golf course in college as a greens mower / maintenance guy I think I might be able to help you out here.

 

Grain is just the direction in which the grass lays. If the color of the grass is a glossy silver the blades are laying away from your perspective and is "down grain". If they are laying towards you then it would look like a deep lush green very dull looking and is "into the grain".

 

Where a mower comes in is that it pushes the blades of grass over slightly in the direction of which it is cutting. the grass will always be pushed over in the direction which the mower was heading. If the mower was heading away from you then it's silver / down grain. IF the mower was heading towards you then the grass is dark green and it is into the grain. It is a very subtle different in terms of speed a lot of times because the natural grass growing in a given direction, or natural grain will take over later in the day for greens.

 

Where it is the most noticeable is in fairways that are cut in a clock manner to see down grain versus into the grain from the tee box to the green. A clock pattern is where you cut the fairway in a clock manner, so you start on the other side going clockwise when you are done you will have roughly a straight line down the middle of the fairway one side silver the other side green. The theory is with the clock cutting of fairways you get a "fast side" and a "slow side" maybe you remember this from the masters tournament before they started cutting all the fairways from the green back towards the tee so that the entire fairway would be into the grain.

 

Clock style fairway cut:

 

Diamond pattern fairway cut (double cut)

 

Single stripe (the faded cuts straight down the fairway are from the previous day)

 

 

 

 

 

Well, the major difference between a high end course and a not as well maintained course is almost always the maintenance budgets. For example Augusta National Golf Club has an unlimited budget to do whatever they want, so the fairways are likely to be cut at the same grass length as some municipal courses greens would be cut. The fairways on tour probably run a an 8 or so roughly on the stimp of that tells you anything.

 

What will screw me up the most is when the course is in REAL bad shape. The tee boxes and fairways have a grass height of what my home course would call the first cut of rough. 1/4 of the ball is sitting bellow the top of the blades of grass. On par 3s this is more noticeable because I only tee the ball up enough on well maintained tee boxes so that the bottom of the ball is just above the blades of grass the head of the tee is only thing sticking out roughly. When the grass is that lone at that tee height the grass still covers the bottom of the ball, it messes with me visually on the tee box. Then in the fairway you shouldn't be having to play out of very light rough

 

If the greens are slow and/or bumpy it effects me the most. Slow greens that roll true are better then fast greens that bounce everywhere I will admit that. I personally don't like slow greens, it's not even really a mechanical issue in my stroke either. It's mostly speed on down slopes, it absolutely annoys the hell out of me when the ball stops 1/2 way down a slope while traveling downhill. I played the thing to pick up speed with gravity down the slope not slow down because the grass is longer then the pitch of the slope is to pull the ball down to the flat.

 

Having cut greens for 3 summers in a row 7 days a week in college, I hold the opinion that without good greens you don't have a golf course you have a got track.

 

 

+1 jmiller, this was very good info on what to look for.

 

Personally I hate playing a course where the greens are different from one to the next. If they are all slow, great, if they are all fast, even better, but when one is fast, and the two is slow, it's hard to figure them out, and that will really mess up your score.

[JMiller]

+1 jmiller, this was very good info on what to look for.

 

Personally I hate playing a course where the greens are different from one to the next. If they are all slow, great, if they are all fast, even better, but when one is fast, and the two is slow, it's hard to figure them out, and that will really mess up your score.

 

I hate it when the greens are different speeds. We have 2 or 3 greens that are always slower then the others on my track, I just call them home court advantage because I know I need to give those greens just a little more power to get them the same distance. I think a lot of courses especially late in the day run into this problem of variances in speed, from the amount of sun / air each one gets. When I would cut greens I would see some greens end up with more grass in the catch buckets then others, just from natural growth from the previous day.

[RoverRick]

Because we have greens that are different ages, they are different speeds. This is not as much of an issue as it was before the latest remodel. Before numbers 1, 2, 15, 16, 17 & 18 were the original 1927 grass as far as I know. Number 3 was from 2010, number 4 was 2008, number 5 was from 2006, and 6 -13 were from 2005. These were 5 different speeds and from different designers. Now we have all the holes from the same designer but 10 of them are from last September. I will say that this week they have played closer to the same speed throughout. We are getting more rain today so this will only help the situation.

 

The direction the grass is mowed one thing and will have more effect in the morning (assuming the greens are mowed in the morning) but in the afternoon and evening generally speaking putts to the southwest or into the sun are faster than putts to the northeast.

[Rickles]

I wanted to chime in about grain. I second the talk about Bermuda vs Bent. I grew up around Washington DC where the greens are mostly bent grass. On bent grain really isn't an issue. I moved to Texas for college and still leave there. Greens here, unless you play the most high end country clubs are bermuda. Grain is a significant issue on bermuda. Shiny means down grain. Putts are faster and want to break in the direction that is down grain. Dull or darker means into the grain. Putts are slower and it can work like velcro on longer slower greens. Grain creates another factor in green reading. You have to factor both break and grain. Example. If the grain is growing in the same direction as a downhill putt it will be faster and break even more. Sometimes a putt that has a slope that looks like it will need to be played on the edge of the cup can actually be dead straight if the grain is growing in the opposite direction of the break. Grass on greens makes a difference. Just look on tour. Guys from the south tend to play the florida swing better because they grew up putting on grainy greens. Guys from California play well there because they grew up playing n that weird poa annua stuff.

 

I have played lots of munis and I have played some great courses. I am a member of my local muni Sammons Park here in Temple. They just rebuilt their greens and last year they were horrible. I got to play Austin Country Club this past year. I've played Witchita Country Club in Kanasas. Tom Watson is a member. I got to play Shady Oaks, where Hogan played the last half of his life, bent grass greens in Texas! My Dad is a member of Morehead City Country Club in NC. The week before the Masters I hit balls on the range next to Curtis Strange who has a house in Morehead.

 

The point of all this isn't to brag, It's to say that for me while these courses are fantastically maintained the only place it makes a difference in play for the most part is the greens. When I play with my Dad in North Carolina the greens are so smooth. Even though they are fast I make lots of putts because they are so smooth. It is the same thing with other courses. The other difference is the rough. This is where the munis can be easier because patchy rough that isn't as thick or bare hardpan or real tight turf like we have on munis here in Texas is so much easier to hit off of than deep fertilized rough at these fancy courses.

[revkev]

Okay here we go. RR and Rickles both hit on something I wanted to mention which is grain is far, far more important in Southern climates than up North. Northern grasses are not as hardy as the grasses down here. Like Rickles I grew up in a Nothern climate and now live in a Southern one - the greens that I play are either Old School Bermuda or the newer Tiff type. Regardless of cost the Tiff greens are nicer and easier to putt, grain is still a factor though. As for Bermuda - agghhh - that's what did me in on Tuesday and you'd think I'd know by now.

 

While the grass on greens up North is commonly called Bent it rarely is actually Bent except for at high end courses. Bent is very difficult to maintain and takes a substantial budget. It's normally some sort of hybrid with a healthy dose of Poa Anna mixed in. Since Northern grasses are not as hardy they are particularly susceptable to diseases that cause spotiness and a variety of issues. In general I prefer Northern greens because there's one less factor in reading them and they are what I grew up with - but when they are bad they are really, really bad and no fun to putt what so ever. When Bermuda greens are bad they are still consistent and the grain will predominate.

 

That's my take - I almost never play courses with bad greens down here - too many courses, too little time, if I play one with bad greens I'm not going back to it. I've always picked my regular course based on the quality of the greens under the theory that a course with good greens travels well (another words you are prepared to play a higher end course because you won't have putting issues.)

[jaxbeachpackerfan]

+1 on the grain here in the south. Also, a northern transplant, I never really bothered to learn about grain until this year, and what a difference it has made in my long putting. I had adjusted somewhat on my home course by remembering effects, like this one is more uphill than it looks (turns out because its into the grain), but its now much easier reading the grain. Still learning the finer points of finding it on cloudy days and remembering which way is south, etc.

 

On the course quality, I admit I'm very spoiled. We have the best deal in golf here at TPC Sawgrass/Valley Course. Rolling in the annual membership fee, my average cost per round, including tax, is about $50 for playing a nationally rated, tour caliber course that actually hosts the Web.com tour championship this year. The PGA Tour has almost as much money as Augusta to put into the two courses here, and they do it. Not to mention the practice facilities.

 

Beyond that, within a 30 mile proximity, our group has 5 or so courses that we play for $30 to $50 that are courses originally built in the 2000s to be membership country clubs for their respective housing developments. That hasn't proven to be workable for these courses in this economy, so while they still have memberships and operate as country clubs, they open the courses up for public play. The conditions on these courses are just a bit below ritzy country club conditions, and usually the greens are very good. I haven't played a serious round on a badly condition course since 2009 (when I played a muni type course up in Connecticut while visiting my brother-in-law).

[sai-jin]

Speaking of greens, is there a course that you have to hit a certain part of the green or the ball will roll off?

 

I have never played a real tour quality course before, so just wondering.

[revkev]

Speaking of greens, is there a course that you have to hit a certain part of the green or the ball will roll off?

 

I have never played a real tour quality course before, so just wondering.

 

 

That would be about every course I play - Seriously my league course has any number of greens with false fronts and sides you think you've hit the green and ...... The course I have a clergy membership at has very firm greens - you have to be very careful down wind, down grain or your going to have a lot of trouble holding those greens. I also play TPC Tampa Bay a number of times a season - that's a treat but those greens are very, very tricky if you're not careful - they're huge but they play small because you have to be on the section the pin is on or else - you may be on the green but you might as well not be - the two par 5's on the back are brutal - you either hit the table top part of the green or you will suck your shot back off the green regardless of how little spin you might have on the ball.

[sai-jin]

I guess I shouldn't be too excited to be able to hit a 580yds par 5 in 2 and hold the green....

 

I think my visit to sc will be a rude awakening of my skills.