Loft Jacking - Who Cares?

[NiftyNiblick]

Everybody isn't a gearhead--

 

most people aren't--

 

but those linksters who are have, in effect, two specific interests.

 

The game is one.

 

The gear is another....

 

and sometime's there's only a tenuous relationship between the two.

 

One thing that sets me apart from most gearheads is that I have the hardware to directly compare. Most people unload one set when adopting another. E-bay serves as a testament to how clubs travel about almost like coins of the realm. But I have the hand-me-down Spalding Bobby Jones hickory-shafted set with which I intrepidly took my first lessons as an adolescent. I have my first brand new set which I earned by scrubbing pans in my grandfather's (GRHS) bakery. I will always have the set that my new bride so generously gave me as a wedding gift forty-four years ago. I'm sure that I don't have to continue--you get the picture. I love my gear.

 

And a lot of it has special meaning that goes well beyond any ball and stick game.

 

So I get passionate with my opinions because we're mired in a discussion that I love having. I think that it shows. That's why people don't get too angry with me when I get going.

 

But as I said, I'm in position to compare. So while my criteria may appear to come somewhere from space, I know what I like. And for whatever reason, a lot of what I like a lot is not the newest stuff in my basement. A lot of new directions are directions in which I'm not prepared to travel.

 

This November will be my THIRTEENTH presidential election, and there was no eighteen-year-old vote in my day. So if I was 22 in 1968, do the math. I'm not in a place where my game is suddenly going to improve dramatically. I'm trying to hold onto as much of it as I can, and finishing 2015 at 12.8 isn't the least bit bad for somebody who was an eight at his very best.

 

So take my strong opinions on this jacked lofts subject for what they are--an opportunity for a good discussion. Regardless of technology, a guy my age is going to play his best with what he likes!

[McaseyM]

You are forgetting 2 important things. That more people are playing the game now, so that means more bad golfers. And that golf courses are getting longer and harder to accommodate the advances in equipment. Courses today are much different than 50 years ago.

 

Edit: Rev already beat me to both points. That's what I get for taking 30 min to write 3 sentences at work.

 

More bad golfers? Short game problems, What ARE you talking about:

 

[Mike Z]

Winner.  

....  Given the male ego it's no surprise that handicaps haven't improved even though equipment and the fitting process have.

[revkev]

I'm with Nifty here - Dru I'm sure your techy nerds love their conversation and I say - more power to them. 

 

I spent my entire year as a graduate students arguing with two other grad students about a ridiculous fine point in theology - It had to do with the significance of the Resurrection vs. the Ascension of Jesus - Both guys hold PhD's one from Notre Dame (the premier school of theology in the world) and the other from Durham (not chopped liver.)  One is a parish pastor who is also a professor at a Seminary in Russia (he's a US citizen so its confusing) and the other is a full professor of Church History at the Seminary we attended.  I'm not going to claim absolute victory in the debate but we have each had a least one daughter since that time and each of us selected the middle name of Anastasia (the Greek word for Resurrection) or a derivative there of for our child.   Of course Anastasia has a much nicer ring to it that Egayro (transliteration) which is the Greek word for Ascend but that has nothing to do with the point.

 

Back to golf we are the group that cares about this stuff so why not discuss it?  I only wish we were in the grill room with a pitcher of beer and a nice cigar. 

 

Drs. Stuckwisch, Busher and I fought like cats and dogs over glasses of scotch, beer and cups of coffee - we are also godfathers to each others children and continue to fight about ridiculous stuff until this day.       

[NiftyNiblick]

"Like this" wasn't good enough for that last post, Rev. 

 

I'm looking for the "love this" button!

[BIG STU]

 

 

What is great about this forum is we all have different opinions and we can share them freely. I hope people don't feel like because we don't agree with them we think they are wrong. We just differ in opinion and thats okay. There isn't one correct blanket statement that covers everything in the game, golf is too difficult for that unfortunately. If more people understood (or something like that) their game like you and Nifty, people would at least set themselves up for better scores. Nifty knows what works for him and won't buy into the marketing crap OEM's are throwing out there. Just because I think people can benefit from newer clubs and technology doesn't make me right and Nifty wrong or Nifty right and myself wrong. As long as what you're playing works for you, life's good. 

 

MY sentiments exactly

[RoverRick]

Oddly enough, this subject came to me yesterday on the course. Because of the sorry 4$$ m0t#зя$ who were learning to play golf in front of us would not let us through, I had already ponder world health and poverty and still had time to pontificate on other things before I could hit my next shot.

 

I was playing in a foursome with a guys playing RBZ and two playing Rocketblades. They were discussing what iron to hit on a particular par 3 that was directly into the wind. wondering if they should hit 8 or 7. I never participate in this unless I am playing with the other two guys who play blades because it is apples to oranges. Not germane to this discussion, I hit 7's and came up short and I had hit a 5 and was 8' from the flag, and still not germane, I did not make the birdie, but I digress.

 

It occurred to me that I did not care what irons they hit or that the lofts were jacked up or anything else about their clubs or bag. I could trade my clubs in on a set where I could have hit a 7 iron to a 155 yard hole into a 25 mph wind or I could hit my 5 iron. The bottom line is I still needed to have clubs I could hit when I was 136 from the pin with no wind.

 

Also, no one really cared what club I hit from where ever, if I got on the green and made a putt or at most 2 putts.

[silver & black]

However none of us is neutral, most of us if not all of us will hit what fits our eye better than what doesn't regardless of what we "should" be using.

 

This thread is gold! The opinions and musings from EVERYONE is quite entertaining and informative.

 

The bolded part of the quote from Rev. is me to a tee!

[wbealsd]

At this point in time, the only reason I'm concerned about "jacked lofts" is, if I end up buying the Srixon Z545 irons later this year, I'll need to get an additional Ping Groove wedge to fill the gap between the Z545 PW (44*) and my wedge setup.

 

Other than that, no problem...

 

Mashie and niblick, loft numbers, club numbers, etc. I just need to know what I need to hit for the distance I need it to go (and then provide a decent swing to make it work).

[fozcycle]

I saw that the new TMAG M2 irons are jacked up....8i is 28*, then I thought about the comments here. If you go with the Ben Hogan way, who cares what the number is, concentrate on the lofts and make sure that you have the correct coverage.

[Kor.A.Door]

The larger the number on the iron head the bigger the head of the club is, so if I have 175 yards, and I have a choice between Nifty's 5 iron or my jacked 7 iron, I choose the 7 iron, even though the lofts are or would be the same, why, because the 7 is easier to hit, the head is bigger, the weight is lower, I can hit it up in the air. If nifty wants to hit the little blade 5 iron go ahead more power to him, but I'm not going to put myself at the disadvantage because I don't like that the 7 iron loft is 35* instead of 40* like it was 50 years ago. These lofts for GI clubs changed back in the 80's, this is nothing new.

[Mike Z]

I saw that the new TMAG M2 irons are jacked up....8i is 28*, then I thought about the comments here. If you go with the Ben Hogan way, who cares what the number is, concentrate on the lofts and make sure that you have the correct coverage.

Its not really a problem except at either end of the set or both and may not exactly corr3espond to loft - and that can make it tricky.  So for example if you have a 44* SGI PW and your next club is a 48* traditional wedge, I would argue that you still have a pretty substantial gap.  Likewise, if your first iron is a SGI 5-iron but is in a loft of, say, 24* and your next club down is a 4-Hybrid, it could be that its too close to the 5-iron compared to the rest of your gaps.

 

Kind of makes the case for getting a full set fitting - says the guy who has never gotten a fitting in his life. 

[alfriday101]

The more knowledgable one is about golf, the less it probably matters.  We choose the clubs that fit our game and hopefully get them fit and properly gapped.  The number on the bottom really shouldn't matter at that point.    

 

But what about the newbie  who reads Hogan's advice on ball placement.  The reference to the 5 iron in the middle of the stance no longer applies because the modern 5 iron is equivalent to the 3 iron Hogan played.  Or the newbie who reads Watson's advice about play around the green.  The pitching wedge is now the same loft as the 8 iron Watson played and not really appropriate for pitching.  The newly ends up using too little loft.  "What do you mean I don't pitch with my pitching wedge?" 

 

I also wonder about the make up of sets with jacked lofts.  The clubs tend to get bunched at the long end of the set, with 3 and 2 1/2 degree spreads, and the sets have too many clubs over 38 inches long, which most golfers can't hit. To me, the emphasis on distance leads to more long clubs and less playability in sets.    

[BIG STU]

Going to give a different perspective.  I play stronger lofts for one reason and this is that I add 2* to every club in my swing.  I know that is not the best but it works for me and not something that I am ever going to try and change.  In effect my 26* static loft turns into a little over 28* at impact.  Conversely, I have a good friend that plays his lofts week since he delofts the club between 2* and 3*.  There are a lot of ways to play this game and stick with what works.  I always tell anyone that plays with me to never judge a distance off of what club I hit since I hit the shot that fits my eye and makes me comfortable.  I played with some guys last year and we were all about the same length off the tee and with our irons.  I generally hit one to two clubs more into most holes since that was the swing that I had that day and was the low score in the foursome by a wide margin.

You are just the opposite of me in that respect my static 26 in your example turns to 24 because I deloft the club at impact except the wedges. I even deloft the putter because I forward press. My putters are usually set around 6*. Goes to show that everyone does it different I guess that is why they make clubs adjustable and make loft and lie machines

[Sschaffer24]

I love this thread!

 

Not only is it providing interesting insight, but it plays into literally what goes on in my head every round!

 

Here is the ultimate question in my mind about this issue.

 

I know we all "should" be playing GI or SGI irons, but for those that are on the fence, when do you know to make the move from one to the other? From say a blade to a GI iron or something?

 

My biggest weakness with my Hogans is my long/mid iron distances. I just don't carry the ball like I should be. I have to club up to a 33 or 29* iron to play my 150-160 yard shots, and that gives me no top end of my bag because I have my distances condensed in such a small window.

 

BUT I am extremely accurate, I can work these beautifully, and they fit my looks and feel preference totally.

 

So when does a golfer know to make that sacrifice and jump into the pool of loft jacking versus just sticking with what they have?

[hckymeyer]

I love this thread!

 

Not only is it providing interesting insight, but it plays into literally what goes on in my head every round!

 

Here is the ultimate question in my mind about this issue.

 

I know we all "should" be playing GI or SGI irons, but for those that are on the fence, when do you know to make the move from one to the other? From say a blade to a GI iron or something?

 

My biggest weakness with my Hogans is my long/mid iron distances. I just don't carry the ball like I should be. I have to club up to a 33 or 29* iron to play my 150-160 yard shots, and that gives me no top end of my bag because I have my distances condensed in such a small window.

 

BUT I am extremely accurate, I can work these beautifully, and they fit my looks and feel preference totally.

 

So when does a golfer know to make that sacrifice and jump into the pool of loft jacking versus just sticking with what they have?

A couple things to think about...

 

Can you hit the club to a reliable distance 80% of the time?  What are the yardage gaps between your clubs?  Are you hitting it well and it's just not traveling far enough, or are there a lot of mishits involved?

 

If you can hit is reliably 80% of the time and they are well struck you're probably in the right clubs.  In that situation maybe you need to increase the loft gapping at the top end of your bag to get some additional distance.

 

If it's more that you aren't making solid contact then you are a prime candidate for some more forgiving irons.

 

 

Do you want be the guy shooting sub 80's or the guy who looks pretty shooting 100?  Before you put anything in your bag ask yourself 2 questions.  Can I hit it reliably 80% of the time?  Will it help me to take less strokes?

[Undershooter]

A couple things to think about...

 

Can you hit the club to a reliable distance 80% of the time?  What are the yardage gaps between your clubs?  Are you hitting it well and it's just not traveling far enough, or are there a lot of mishits involved?

 

If you can hit is reliably 80% of the time and they are well struck you're probably in the right clubs.  In that situation maybe you need to increase the loft gapping at the top end of your bag to get some additional distance.

 

If it's more that you aren't making solid contact then you are a prime candidate for some more forgiving irons.

 

 

Do you want be the guy shooting sub 80's or the guy who looks pretty shooting 100?  Before you put anything in your bag ask yourself 2 questions.  Can I hit it reliably 80% of the time?  Will it help me to take less strokes?

Personally, I like to look pretty and shoot par.

 

Too bad I'm not putting in the practice time right now. Oh well, at least I still look pretty

[hckymeyer]

Personally, I like to look pretty and shoot par.

 

Too bad I'm not putting in the practice time right now. Oh well, at least I still look pretty

Look Good, Feel Good, Play Good

 

Or my personal favorite...

 

Fake it til you make it 

[Sschaffer24]

The best way to explain it is that I am hitting the ball well and it's just not traveling far enough. My distance gaps from my wedges through my 37 are very consistent. But when I get into the 33/29/25 is where I really start to lose my gaps.

 

I guess the problem I have is that if I'm ever 170 or further from the pin, I'm basically to the point where I can't comfortably line up to take a shot at the green. My longer irons and mid irons just don't have the performance they need.

 

And that's where the whole cranked loft thing comes in. Does a cranked loft solve that problem for me? And is that what's most golfers suffer from and why this is such a popular trend?

[NiftyNiblick]

A cranked loft doesn't solve the problem for you, S. As the loft gets stronger, the apex of the trajectory goes further down the target line. If you don't reach the apex, the ball starts coming down too early.

 

A 25º five iron has the same loft and a shorter shaft than a 25º three iron.  You've got the same loft on a shorter shaft. How can that possibly increase distance? True, the 5-iron club head has more mass than a 3-iron club head of the same loft, but you can see that's not helping enough,

 

You're ok with your distance on the 37º iron.  Then diminishing returns set in.  So why carry longer irons than that?  Practice with the seven and nine woods.  Maybe even an eleven wood.  Clubs like that were brought to the table SPECIFICALLY to solve your very common problem. 

 

As for that 9.5º driver, you have to be hitting up on that. Playing the ball that far forward, your swing might actually be losing momentum by the time it gets to the ball. As an experiment, try a higher loft driver, move the ball back to just  opposite your left heel, and lower the tee height so that you're making a less specialized swing.  I'm not positive, of course, but I'm guessing that you're leaving twenty yards on the table with your tee ball.

[Mr_Theoo]

The best way to explain it is that I am hitting the ball well and it's just not traveling far enough. My distance gaps from my wedges through my 37 are very consistent. But when I get into the 33/29/25 is where I really start to lose my gaps.

 

I guess the problem I have is that if I'm ever 170 or further from the pin, I'm basically to the point where I can't comfortably line up to take a shot at the green. My longer irons and mid irons just don't have the performance they need.

 

And that's where the whole cranked loft thing comes in. Does a cranked loft solve that problem for me? And is that what's most golfers suffer from and why this is such a popular trend?

If you were to get the hogans but in stronger lofts I don't see it fixing your problem. While you may see some distance increase you might not be able to hit the ball high enough to have it hold a green.

 

To me it sounds like you need more technology in your longer irons to help you get the ball higher and faster ball speeds.

[Kor.A.Door]

I love this thread!

 

Not only is it providing interesting insight, but it plays into literally what goes on in my head every round!

 

Here is the ultimate question in my mind about this issue.

 

I know we all "should" be playing GI or SGI irons, but for those that are on the fence, when do you know to make the move from one to the other? From say a blade to a GI iron or something?

 

My biggest weakness with my Hogans is my long/mid iron distances. I just don't carry the ball like I should be. I have to club up to a 33 or 29* iron to play my 150-160 yard shots, and that gives me no top end of my bag because I have my distances condensed in such a small window.

 

BUT I am extremely accurate, I can work these beautifully, and they fit my looks and feel preference totally.

 

So when does a golfer know to make that sacrifice and jump into the pool of loft jacking versus just sticking with what they have?

Make your own combo type set, hogan isnt paying you are they, find something that is GI or slightly larger head than blades, they will be easier to hit, and will help spread out the top end distances. I found that I could play the 7-PW in the blades very well, but the 4-5-6 was mediocre. Get some GI 4-5-6 and try it.

[Mr_Theoo]

Make your own combo type set, hogan isnt paying you are they, find something that is GI or slightly larger head than blades, they will be easier to hit, and will help spread out the top end distances. I found that I could play the 7-PW in the blades very well, but the 4-5-6 was mediocre. Get some GI 4-5-6 and try it.

He could even get the new cavity hogans or the fli hi to stay with the brand and look but get the tech he needs to get his distances up a bit.

[NiftyNiblick]

The other posters make a good point.  More GI long irons are another option to high loft woods that S. might prefer to try first.  I have no experience with hybrids, but they might be another option.

 

S. feels as though he's making solid contact but isn't getting the results. Like many of us, he might just not be a long iron blade player.

 

That 9.5º driver, which he doesn't even bring up, still has me scratching my head, though.  That's a high swing speed driver loft.  I wouldn't have hit that when I was twenty-five years old.  My backswing was never long enough to generate that speed.  I can't lift my left heel and still make good contact.

[jaskanski]

Remember that lofts are only one component of a playable ball flight. That is why we have such things as variable or descending weight, variable kick-point or flighted shafts - to give a bit of assistance with the longer irons with trajectory. Not for everyone I know, but certainly worth exploring this avenue to give a playable trajectory without unnecessarily increasing height and spin.

[revkev]

Back at Nifty I wouldn't necessarily say that a 9.5 lofted driver is for a faster swing speed - much depends upon AoA.  The idea is to obtain the optimal launch angle spin rate on each of your clubs but particularly on the driver since it's tee'd up and hit from a level lie that should be fairly easy.  A person with a swing speed of 90 mph but a 4 degree up AoA may need a loft of 9.5 while another person with a negative AoA may need a 12 at 110 mph. 

 

It's not rocket science, its basic physical science but you shouldn't ignore it when getting a club - that or better you should have an experienced fitter who knows the quickest way to help you obtain the right numbers.

 

My AoA is plus 3 playing the driver in its traditional spot of off the left heal - I'm not getting that AoA but fudging anything.  For that reason I need a bit less loft than my swing speed would indicate - of course that varies by manufacturer because there is no standardized loft numbers.

[NiftyNiblick]

I have my own hang-ups with which to deal because I don't swing up at anything.  I push my tee almost all the way down to the cup for fairway wood tee shots and go up maybe another quarter inch for the driver.  Otherwise, the tee shot becomes a ball-above-feet side-hill lie or it has to be hit on the upswing. 

 

My baseball swing was a slight 5º uppercut as a boy (we learned from the Ted Williams book--no Charlie Lau nonsense).  In boxing as a boy, my left hook was my big punch, but it wasn't technically an uppercut because an uppercut is thrown from in tight with your back (right) hand and if it's thrown with your lead or straight jabbing hand, it's a hook (regardless of what clueless commentators call it).  But none of that carried over into golf for me..

 

That's why 460cc deep face drivers are out of the question for me and the 14º mini-driver is just about right. I don't do launch monitors, but I know that I don't hit up at the ball because the long swing has to be dissipating by the time it's coming up. And if it's not, I still don't do it.  That would be a one club specialty swing that I don't need. 

 

The closest I come to swinging up is when I move the wedge shot forward in my stance to hit it high and soft rather than spinning it hard.  That's low bounce wedge territory, but it's still not swinging up.

 

Still, you guys know more about it than I, but I have a hard time imagining the 9.5º as anything but a fast swing club.  The ball has to go out a long, long way before it reaches the trajectory apex.  If you can't hit it that hard, it starts coming down sooner than a 12º driver, because you can get the 12º up to its apex.  That's the entire reason they make 12º drivers.

[silver & black]

I know my swing speed is 103-105. I play 8.5* driver. I average 240 yards. On a good day, I average 250 with a few 260+ thrown in. At 56, I doubt that lasts much longer. 

[NiftyNiblick]

I should drop out of the discussion here because I'm not helping. 

I especially don't seem to understand drivers.

I used to take a more conventional approach toward them, but I'd hit the ball off the golf course. 

No pattern. Foul pole to foul pole.

If you can hit driver and then find the ball, it's probably a useful weapon for you.

They must have made the mini-driver with me in mind.

[Dhuck Whooker]

I should drop out of the discussion here because I'm not helping. 

I especially don't seem to understand drivers.

I used to take a more conventional approach toward them, but I'd hit the ball off the golf course. 

No pattern. Foul pole to foul pole.

If you can hit driver and then find the ball, it's probably a useful weapon for you.

They must have made the mini-driver with me in mind.

A-ha Nifty, that was a 2 wood, remember those?