Chisag's Tip Of The Day #15

[chisag]

Trail Arm Position At Address Sets Up A Good Swing

... Many players have some fundamental flaws, are aware they have those flaws and at some point in the future they plan to address those flaws. I have never been a fan of addressing more than one thing at a time so I completely understand that philosophy. But one of the problems with self diagnosis is attacking the symptom and not the cause. I had more than a few students that had trouble hooking the ball but did not want to change their strong grip. They had tried in the past and it didn't produce good results overall or they were just too uncomfortable trying to swing with a different feeling grip. The were just putting themselves in a position too fail before the even started moving the club. For many off you this is already a fundamental, but one of the biggest flaws I see with many high index players and even some mid index players is improper position of their trailing arm at address. For the sake of simplicity I will call it the right arm, so lefties please accept my apologies and think left arm when I say right for the rest of this tip. I played with a mid cap yesterday that had this flaw and he hit some really good shots and some really bad shots and on the back 9 asked me if I saw anything that might be causing his bad shots. 

... If your right elbow is not pointing at your right hip or inside your right hip at address, you are doomed to make corrections with every swing. Try this: take your stance and in the address position stand straight up and without changing anything, lift your driver in front of you about chest high with the shaft parallel to the ground. Can you easily swing the club around you on a flat plane? If your right elbow is pointing to the ground, the arm will fold and unfold through impact and it is easy to keep the shaft on plane. But if your elbow is not pointing down you will almost immediately have to change the relationship of your shoulders and/or manipulate the shaft so you can continue your backswing. If you stop your backswing when anything starts to go off plane, it is easy to see you can't move your elbow more than a foot or so before you either manipulate the shaft or turn your elbow under. 

... Another way to do the same thing with a more advanced drill is actually tee up a golf ball and hit it with your driver while on your knees. If your elbow is not pointing down, it is impossible to swing the club and hit the golf ball without Houdini like contortions. With the right arm pointing down it might be even easier than some think, maybe not hitting good shots but swinging freely with the shaft on plane and making solid contact. It is an excellent drill that covers several flaws but one of my favorites for poor right elbow position. So do yourself a favor and check your right elbow at address, it just might be an eye opener. 

[dlow206]

Great post, saw a video by Chris Ryan on a similar topic regarding right elbow.

I find that many of my swing issues are related to setup issues. I've had these setup issues validated by instructors in the past to ensure that they were truly issues. If I don't focus on these setup issues though, they start to creep back in.

[dlow206]

@chisag any other common setup flaws you see amongst mid to high handicappers?

[chisag]

40 minutes ago, dlow206 said:

@chisag any other common setup flaws you see amongst mid to high handicappers?

 

... Indeed but way too many to mention here. But lining up severely open and to a lesser degree closed is pretty common. I see so many faders line up way left which encourages a fade then make the mistake of aiming further left which then produces a slice. 

[dlow206]

2 minutes ago, chisag said:

 

... Indeed but way too many to mention here. But lining up severely open and to a lesser degree closed is pretty common. I see so many faders line up way left which encourages a fade then make the mistake of aiming further left which then produces a slice. 

Makes sense. Any tips on how to best ensure setup changes are being applied consistently when out on the course? What tends to happen for me is that I make a setup improvement on the range, it works well, but then I guess muscle memory takes over on the course and I get focused on something else. 

[chisag]

13 minutes ago, dlow206 said:

Makes sense. Any tips on how to best ensure setup changes are being applied consistently when out on the course? What tends to happen for me is that I make a setup improvement on the range, it works well, but then I guess muscle memory takes over on the course and I get focused on something else. 

 

... You have pretty much summed up why golf is so difficult. Even guys on tour go through the same thing but have coaches that let them know they have moved their hand position forward an inch and at that level it makes a big difference. Tiger talks about being "Ranger Rick" and not being able to take it to the course. 

[dlow206]

1 hour ago, chisag said:

 

... You have pretty much summed up why golf is so difficult. Even guys on tour go through the same thing but have coaches that let them know they have moved their hand position forward an inch and at that level it makes a big difference. Tiger talks about being "Ranger Rick" and not being able to take it to the course. 

I need to come up with some sort of setup routine that will work for me in an attempt to have some sort of consistent setup. Otherwise with my ADHD, I will be off in some other land of thoughts.

[dlow206]

I can't think of any other sport that is as hard as golf to consistently get things like the setup right, and then execute the motion (swing) consistently each time. For example, I could go into a baseball batting cage (haven't been in one for 15 years), and I would setup fine and consistently for each swing. And during execution, I wouldn't have issues like "crap, I didn't shift my weight forward to the front foot". 

[ncwoz]

On 7/26/2020 at 4:34 PM, chisag said:

Trail Arm Position At Address Sets Up A Good Swing

... Many players have some fundamental flaws, are aware they have those flaws and at some point in the future they plan to address those flaws. I have never been a fan of addressing more than one thing at a time so I completely understand that philosophy. But one of the problems with self diagnosis is attacking the symptom and not the cause. I had more than a few students that had trouble hooking the ball but did not want to change their strong grip. They had tried in the past and it didn't produce good results overall or they were just too uncomfortable trying to swing with a different feeling grip. The were just putting themselves in a position too fail before the even started moving the club. For many off you this is already a fundamental, but one of the biggest flaws I see with many high index players and even some mid index players is improper position of their trailing arm at address. For the sake of simplicity I will call it the right arm, so lefties please accept my apologies and think left arm when I say right for the rest of this tip. I played with a mid cap yesterday that had this flaw and he hit some really good shots and some really bad shots and on the back 9 asked me if I saw anything that might be causing his bad shots. 

... If your right elbow is not pointing at your right hip or inside your right hip at address, you are doomed to make corrections with every swing. Try this: take your stance and in the address position stand straight up and without changing anything, lift your driver in front of you about chest high with the shaft parallel to the ground. Can you easily swing the club around you on a flat plane? If your right elbow is pointing to the ground, the arm will fold and unfold through impact and it is easy to keep the shaft on plane. But if your elbow is not pointing down you will almost immediately have to change the relationship of your shoulders and/or manipulate the shaft so you can continue your backswing. If you stop your backswing when anything starts to go off plane, it is easy to see you can't move your elbow more than a foot or so before you either manipulate the shaft or turn your elbow under. 

... Another way to do the same thing with a more advanced drill is actually tee up a golf ball and hit it with your driver while on your knees. If your elbow is not pointing down, it is impossible to swing the club and hit the golf ball without Houdini like contortions. With the right arm pointing down it might be even easier than some think, maybe not hitting good shots but swinging freely with the shaft on plane and making solid contact. It is an excellent drill that covers several flaws but one of my favorites for poor right elbow position. So do yourself a favor and check your right elbow at address, it just might be an eye opener. 

So it's more than just your grip, do I have that right? I tried the drill you explained and could (without changing my grip at all) rotate my elbow to be anywhere from inside my right hip to almost pointing opposite to the target line.

[dlow206]

36 minutes ago, ncwoz said:

So it's more than just your grip, do I have that right? I tried the drill you explained and could (without changing my grip at all) rotate my elbow to be anywhere from inside my right hip to almost pointing opposite to the target line.

Its more than grip. I can grip the club correctly but have my right elbow pointing somewhere other than where it should be. Common problem for me and it causes all sorts of problems from there.

[chisag]

59 minutes ago, ncwoz said:

So it's more than just your grip, do I have that right? I tried the drill you explained and could (without changing my grip at all) rotate my elbow to be anywhere from inside my right hip to almost pointing opposite to the target line.

 

... Not sure I understand your response. The drill has nothing to do with rotating your elbow. The forearm will rotate but not the elbow. If you think of the drill as a table with a hole in the middle at chest height and you standing in it, the shaft should simply slide on the table going back and then slide on the table moving forward. If your elbow is not pointing down, you will move the shaft off the table. Another way to look at it is the old Waiter Tray tip. If your elbow is pointed at your right hip in the address you can turn your right palm up and put a tray of food on it, then swing to the top of your backswing keeping the tray of food level. The elbow will be pointing down the entire time. If the elbow rotates or lifts up, you will spill the tray. 

[StrokerAce]

absolutely *love* this easy drill. also reinforces the 'elbow down' theory.

 

 

[ncwoz]

1 hour ago, chisag said:

 

... Not sure I understand your response. The drill has nothing to do with rotating your elbow. The forearm will rotate but not the elbow. If you think of the drill as a table with a hole in the middle at chest height and you standing in it, the shaft should simply slide on the table going back and then slide on the table moving forward. If your elbow is not pointing down, you will move the shaft off the table. Another way to look at it is the old Waiter Tray tip. If your elbow is pointed at your right hip in the address you can turn your right palm up and put a tray of food on it, then swing to the top of your backswing keeping the tray of food level. The elbow will be pointing down the entire time. If the elbow rotates or lifts up, you will spill the tray. 

That makes sense! Sorry, confusing wording on my part. I was more asking about correct vs incorrect setup as opposed to the drill itself, ie. correct setup your elbow is pointing at your right hip, incorrect it'd be rotated "back" so the elbow is pointing away from the ball.

[chisag]

9 minutes ago, ncwoz said:

That makes sense! Sorry, confusing wording on my part. I was more asking about correct vs incorrect setup as opposed to the drill itself, ie. correct setup your elbow is pointing at your right hip, incorrect it'd be rotated "back" so the elbow is pointing away from the ball.

 

... Yup, the elbow pointing back is a common flaw of high index players. They want to basically lift backwards and then hit at the ball with little natural forearm rotation. Many of my female students tried to keep the face square to the target for the entire swing. Logically it really makes sense but all throwing and hitting motions involve forearm rotation. They often had their elbows pointed almost straight back, which again malks logical sense, so learning to open the face naturally going back was a real eye opener for them as it doesn't make logical sense. Much of golf defies logic. "Club head must travel down to make the ball go up" and of course "Aiming left makes the ball go right". 

 

[dlow206]

8 minutes ago, chisag said:

 

... Yup, the elbow pointing back is a common flaw of high index players. They want to basically lift backwards and then hit at the ball with little natural forearm rotation. Many of my female students tried to keep the face square to the target for the entire swing. Logically it really makes sense but all throwing and hitting motions involve forearm rotation. They often had their elbows pointed almost straight back, which again malks logical sense, so learning to open the face naturally going back was a real eye opener for them as it doesn't make logical sense. Much of golf defies logic. "Club head must travel down to make the ball go up" and of course "Aiming left makes the ball go right". 

 

The above is probably one of the most detrimental faults that I have had so far in my short golf career. If I don't actively think about it, my right elbow points more back instead of towards the right hip. From there, in my backswing my right shoulder is either overly internally rotated, or i stand up in the backswing to be able to externally rotate my shoulder. From there, its a miracle that I have ever hit a decent shot. I had discovered this issue a few months back, but sometimes I forget to ensure my right elbow is pointed where it should be.

It's crazy how destructive pointing your right elbow in the wrong direction can be.