Is the issue on tour course setup or... equipment?

[TBS]

Rahm was recorded during the Amex saying its a "F***ing putting contest" and later in the presser said (from Golf Digest - https://www.golfdigest.com/story/rahm-torrey-pines-video?utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook&utm_campaign=golfdigest)

“I mean, the video's pretty self explanatory,” Rahm said. “We're the PGA Tour, we're the best golfers on the planet and we're playing a golf course where missing the fairway means absolutely nothing. There were times where missing the fairway by an inch was worse than missing the fairway by 20 yards; that, to me, is a mistake. I don't know what else to say."“I also understand we're in the desert, you can't overseed the entire golf course and things like that can't happen, but yeah, we played a lot of golf with zero rough.

”Rahm is not alone in this opinion, as some fans have aired their frustrations on social media with the barrage of seemingly easy setups on tour. Asked earlier in the press conference what constitutes an ideal set-up in his eyes, Rahm said one that “challenges every aspect of the game.”

“I like fairways to be narrow, I like the rough to be up so you can't just miss the fairway and go for the green with whatever you want,” Rahm explained. “I would like the greens to be firm. They don't need to be ridiculously firm but firm, and the greens at the right speed. That's tough to say because you have greens here, for example, if you had them rolling 13 it would be unplayable because of how sloped they are.

“But I think a golf course that would challenge us in every aspect of the game and that's where I believe you would find the best player, somebody whose whole game completely is playing good throughout. And if something is missed, you have to make up with really good stuff on the other parts of your game.”

The funny thing is that Pete Dye designed the course to be the "hardest damn golf course" and it was in 1987. Here is a full recap of how pros reacted. https://www.pgatour.com/long-form/2018/01/16/pga-west-stadium-course-controversy-1987.html

 

So what has changed from 1987-2022?? I know that fitness is much more important but fitness alone doesn't give you the ability to overpower this course. It's clearly the equipment. Unless, the PGA tour can dial up consistent windy conditions, distance will always be king. I also am so over the idea of course setup being the answer. Growing the rough is more penial to shorter hitters than longer hitters. It's easier to hit a PW out of the rough and have it hold the green than a 6 iron. You can't just keep backing up tee boxes, for literally 1 event a year at these courses. And the tree/dogleg argument... seriously. A well placed oak tree would literally take 50+ years to mature. So I'm okay with an equipment roll back. The game pros play is completely different than we do as recreational golfers, so make different rules. Also, I find it hilarious that the pros complain like Rory and Hatton. Seems a bit like your strategy didn't match up against the strategy that the course demanded, so don't complain to try to get it changed. Maybe you need to reevaluate your strategy.

 

What are your thoughts?

[Shankster]

I think that is just how the game is played now.  Everything is bigger, faster, stronger than it used to be.  The art of golf is not what it used to be, never will be again.  
 

When you have guys hitting it 400 yards on tour it doesn’t matter how narrow things are. You’d have to net the hole. Barricade off the short cuts with large nets, and literally force them to play the hole as designed.  

Or, we could just learn to deal with it.     

[RickyBobby_PR]

Wait till June when they are complaining that the rough is too thick at the US Open.

The tour needs to have the variety of courses where some weeks where golfers go super low and other weeks where it’s not that low. 
 

Pro golfers will complain when things don’t go their way. Guys like Rahm who have exemptions can choose to avoid these type of tourneys if they don’t like how it’s going to be setup year after year. 
 

I wish more athletes were like MJ.

[TBS]

45 minutes ago, Shankster said:

I think that is just how the game is played now.  Everything is bigger, faster, stronger than it used to be.  The art of golf is not what it used to be, never will be again.  
 

When you have guys hitting it 400 yards on tour it doesn’t matter how narrow things are. You’d have to net the hole. Barricade off the short cuts with large nets, and literally force them to play the hole as designed.  

Or, we could just learn to deal with it.     

Very true - and then you have Pros like Hatton and Rory complaining a hole is too hard because it is a true Par 5 with a well placed center line bunker (18 at Yas Links). 

[DiscipleofPenick]

I think course set up is probably 2nd in the "distance issue". I put it in quotes because I don't think it's an issue. Ranking them, I agree with Nicklaus that it's the ball first, then course set up, equipment, and fitness (other than a dude like Bryson taking it to the extreme of the bell curve). 

There are several reasons I say course set up over equipment. I've heard in multiple broadcasts, including the US Open at Winged Foot, that the pros were AVERAGING 40 yards of roll if they hit a fairway. I'm a 3 hcp golfer playing on soft, public courses. I have my trackman fitting numbers that I carry 268 yards with 8-10 of roll. So I'm a short hitter right? But on a tour set up I add 30 more yards of roll and I'm a hair under 300. If a major is being set up this way (in the fall, in the northeast to boot) what is a desert course actually set up like?

I also think the TPC network plays into this. Not only do courses shut down for weeks before a tournament rolls in, the PGA went out and built their own circuit of courses so that they can control as much as possible and keep the conditions as similar week-to-week, so the pros aren't really playing a different course. That is outside of the grass types. Say TPC San Antonio vs. Sawgrass vs. River Highlands. The PGA can control the setup every. single. week. They set it up for distance, and they also benefit the most from more distance. It's a kind of who-watches-the-watchmen situation. So why would they change? They benefit the most, and they would be hurt the most by rolling it all back.

In short, I agree with Rahm, and the majority of non-majors are set up easier than they should be for elite level golfers. I'm not breaking 90 from their tees on their setups, but the winner shouldn't have to shoot -30 under in a putting contest to win every week.

[cnosil]

I don’t think there are any issues, the players on the PGA tour are entertainers.  Play the conditions in front of you and the person that navigated themselves around the course the best wins.   These topics always go back to distance, golf is and always has been about distance and even if you rolled the ball or clubs back, the person that hits it the farthest will statistically perform better over time.  unless you put hazards in front of them that will result in lost strokes or significantly alter their strategy this is just what professional golf is.  

At the end of the day no matter what setup, is placed in front of them they will complain.  

[Tom the Golf Nut]

Even if they roll the ball back the long hitters will still be the long hitters and they still will have less club hitting into the green than others. Grow the fairways for reduced roll, tighten the fairway to require accuracy, grow the rough to penalize missing the fairway. But at the end of the day they are Pro's and will overcome whatever you put in front of them. 

[Berg Ryman]

I absolutely hate this debate because it's so pointless. When Jon Rahm won his first Farmer's Insurance Open in 2017, he shot 13 under to do it. Ten years before that in 2007, Tiger Woods won his 5th Farmer's Insurance, shot 15 under. Ten years before that in 1997, Mark O'Mera won the tournament, shot 13 under to do it. Ten years before that in 1987, George Burns shot the tournament record 266, 22 under to win, a tournament record tied in 1999 by Tiger Woods. Ten years before that in 1977, Tom Watson shot 19 under to win. I'd mention the winning totals by Bob Goalby in 67 and Arnold Palmer in 57, but those were before the tournament moved to Torrey Pines in 1968, but they shot 15 and 17 under respectfully.

Scores are all relative people. No one was coming with pitchforks back then, everyone needs to calm down.

 

[GolfSpy_APH]

As many have stated, the game of golf has changed. I don't believe there are ways to go backwards... or at least not overly logical ones. The PGA players should be able to learn and adapt to conditions/course setup and if it suits their game great. If it doesn't, learn to adapt and the best players will come out on top for that week. This happens in many sports (i don't want to bore you with curlers, but some of the pros are the worst if conditions are perfect even for a practice session). In the end they all play the same course, under similar conditions throughout the week/weekend and hopefully provide a entertaining product for us to enjoy. For me I believe course setup is what it is and I like to see a variety of different setups/conditions and therefore scores over the season. As for equipment, well we have all talked about this and whether the time to roll back something was missed is above my pay grade. I just simply try to enjoy the product that is out there and I certainly don't feel bad for the guys on tour making millions on amazing courses I would dream of playing. 

[BMart519]

The person who most often wins is the player who putts the best out of the best ball strikers. Otherwise Denny McCarthy would have a lot more wins! The longer hitters clean up their share of wins. Even if it was a putting contest, you could make the excuse it helps balance out who has a chance to win. 

Rahm is like Hatton, like to complain, short temper but it's due to his competitiveness. He had 3-5 lip outs in 1 round. Lots of bad luck and sour grapes.

[TBS]

1 hour ago, Berg Ryman said:

Scores are all relative people. No one was coming with pitchforks back then, everyone needs to calm down.

Top response right here. There are times that I want to take it even further and say par is relative. Why do we need 72 (70, 71, or 73 on some tour stops)? The game of golf is least amount of strokes to put the ball in 18 holes... But also why 18? Why not 6, 9, or 12? I digress. 

[LICC]

8 hours ago, TBS said:

Rahm was recorded during the Amex saying its a "F***ing putting contest" and later in the presser said (from Golf Digest - https://www.golfdigest.com/story/rahm-torrey-pines-video?utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook&utm_campaign=golfdigest)

“I mean, the video's pretty self explanatory,” Rahm said. “We're the PGA Tour, we're the best golfers on the planet and we're playing a golf course where missing the fairway means absolutely nothing. There were times where missing the fairway by an inch was worse than missing the fairway by 20 yards; that, to me, is a mistake. I don't know what else to say."“I also understand we're in the desert, you can't overseed the entire golf course and things like that can't happen, but yeah, we played a lot of golf with zero rough.

”Rahm is not alone in this opinion, as some fans have aired their frustrations on social media with the barrage of seemingly easy setups on tour. Asked earlier in the press conference what constitutes an ideal set-up in his eyes, Rahm said one that “challenges every aspect of the game.”

“I like fairways to be narrow, I like the rough to be up so you can't just miss the fairway and go for the green with whatever you want,” Rahm explained. “I would like the greens to be firm. They don't need to be ridiculously firm but firm, and the greens at the right speed. That's tough to say because you have greens here, for example, if you had them rolling 13 it would be unplayable because of how sloped they are.

“But I think a golf course that would challenge us in every aspect of the game and that's where I believe you would find the best player, somebody whose whole game completely is playing good throughout. And if something is missed, you have to make up with really good stuff on the other parts of your game.”

The funny thing is that Pete Dye designed the course to be the "hardest damn golf course" and it was in 1987. Here is a full recap of how pros reacted. https://www.pgatour.com/long-form/2018/01/16/pga-west-stadium-course-controversy-1987.html

 

So what has changed from 1987-2022?? I know that fitness is much more important but fitness alone doesn't give you the ability to overpower this course. It's clearly the equipment. Unless, the PGA tour can dial up consistent windy conditions, distance will always be king. I also am so over the idea of course setup being the answer. Growing the rough is more penial to shorter hitters than longer hitters. It's easier to hit a PW out of the rough and have it hold the green than a 6 iron. You can't just keep backing up tee boxes, for literally 1 event a year at these courses. And the tree/dogleg argument... seriously. A well placed oak tree would literally take 50+ years to mature. So I'm okay with an equipment roll back. The game pros play is completely different than we do as recreational golfers, so make different rules. Also, I find it hilarious that the pros complain like Rory and Hatton. Seems a bit like your strategy didn't match up against the strategy that the course demanded, so don't complain to try to get it changed. Maybe you need to reevaluate your strategy.

 

What are your thoughts?

Hear hear! The Tour game has devolved for fan watching because equipment advances have taken the strategy and challenges away. Bifurcation of equipment would be great so we can watch Tour events become more interesting again. And courses wouldn't have to be constantly adding yardage in a losing effort to keep up. 

[benb1989]

I prefer watching them play the harder courses. I will not watch most of the normal events because its just boring. I do think the courses should be set up tougher, make the fairways narrow and the rough longer/tougher the closer you get to the green, harden up the greens a bit, stop the ball rolling as much on the fairway. Change things up a bit, make them think about what they are doing. 

[fixyurdivot]

On 1/26/2022 at 7:36 AM, TBS said:

So what has changed from 1987-2022?? I know that fitness is much more important but fitness alone doesn't give you the ability to overpower this course. It's clearly the equipment.

As it relates to distance, a little of both but I agree with you that equipment, to include the supporting technologies, plays the bigger role. There is no doubt that the pro game I've been following for over 50 years has changed. Average distance through the bag is more and scoring to par lower.  But, one would expect this with advances in equipment, fitting, etc.  Personally, I don't care if they try bi-furcation or leave things as they are; I'll still watch the tours.

What I find most irritating (from an amateurs perspective) is how little penalizing errant shots are for them. For the vast majority of amateurs this plays a big factor in scoring, but in the pro game, seemingly, insignificant. Watching them hit greens from 150 yards out with their ball barely visible in thick rough, and a hay bale of grass hanging off the wedge, just ain't right or fair .  How the hell do they do that? 

[cnosil]

17 minutes ago, fixyurdivot said:

What I find most irritating (from an amateurs perspective) is how little penalizing errant shots are for them. For the vast majority of amateurs this plays a big factor in scoring, but in the pro game, seemingly, insignificant. Watching them hit greens from 150 yards out with their ball barely visible in thick rough, and a hay bale of grass hanging off the wedge, just ain't right or fair .  How the hell do they do that? 

I’ll refer you to the Practice vs play ratio thread.  Most amateurs choose to play over practice.  As a result they don’t hit these shots very often.  Pros on the other hand spend considerable time practicing and practicing these types of shots.  

[RickyBobby_PR]

34 minutes ago, fixyurdivot said:

As it relates to distance, a little of both but I agree with you that equipment, to include the supporting technologies, plays the bigger role. There is no doubt that the pro game I've been following for over 50 years has changed. Average distance through the bag is more and scoring to par lower.  But, one would expect this with advances in equipment, fitting, etc.  Personally, I don't care if they try bi-furcation or leave things as they are; I'll still watch the tours.

What I find most irritating (from an amateurs perspective) is how little penalizing errant shots are for them. For the vast majority of amateurs this plays a big factor in scoring, but in the pro game, seemingly, insignificant. Watching them hit greens from 150 yards out with their ball barely visible in thick rough, and a hay bale of grass hanging off the wedge, just ain't right or fair .  How the hell do they do that? 

Life isn’t fair but it’s also course design. I play course where the rough isn’t penalizing and in upstate ny when I visit and play with friends and family there are course where in the trees isn’t that penalizing either compared to courses I play on a regular basis.

The pros have courses where the rough is a problem in non majors.

The difference between pros and ams is how much time they have spent and continue to spend on honing their skills. Amateurs rarely practice and those who do many don’t practice with a purpose. 
 

So instead of saying somethings unfair look at what the person is doing or not doing to make themselves better at the game. Like Gary Player says the more he practices the luckier he gets 

[fixyurdivot]

21 minutes ago, cnosil said:

I’ll refer you to the Practice vs play ratio thread.  Most amateurs choose to play over practice.  As a result they don’t hit these shots very often.  Pros on the other hand spend considerable time practicing and practicing these types of shots.  

 

2 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Life isn’t fair but it’s also course design. I play course where the rough isn’t penalizing and in upstate ny when I visit and play with friends and family there are course where in the trees isn’t that penalizing either compared to courses I play on a regular basis.

The pros have courses where the rough is a problem in non majors.

The difference between pros and ams is how much time they have spent and continue to spend on honing their skills. Amateurs rarely practice and those who do many don’t practice with a purpose. 
 

So instead of saying somethings unfair look at what the person is doing or not doing to make themselves better at the game. Like Gary Player says the more he practices the luckier he gets 

You both seem to have missed the tongue-in-cheek aspect of my comments. I want them to struggle getting out of that stuff .

[RickyBobby_PR]

23 minutes ago, fixyurdivot said:

 

You both seem to have missed the tongue-in-cheek aspect of my comments. I want them to struggle getting out of that stuff .

But if they have the skillset to get out of it they won’t struggle. It’s funny how golfers want people they are watching to struggle when they play.

I want to watch the best at what they do showcase why they are the best. If that’s hitting 150 to the green from short or thick rough and stick it or hit some amazing wedge shot

[cnosil]

23 minutes ago, fixyurdivot said:

 

You both seem to have missed the tongue-in-cheek aspect of my comments. I want them to struggle getting out of that stuff .

Yep, went over my head.    Make it harder and they still complain.  I really liked what Jack did to the bunkers at the Memorial in 2006?  The bunkers actually penalized the players because they weren’t in “perfect” condition due to the rake design. 

[vandyland]

I enjoyed the course setup when they played The Concession for the WGC Workday because they didn't have to make it super long to be interesting and challenging. Morikawa still shot like -18 under for 4 days but the green contouring (pretty wild by PGA tour standards) and the fact that they shaved down all the mounding around the greens (rather than just surrounding it with thick rough) seemed to give some guys fits. They practice that blast chip out the junk so much that it is probably akin to playing a bunker shot but when you have a super delicate pitch/chip up a 8 foot bank that if you get wrong will run off the other side or come right back to you...that is compelling. 

Would I want to play the Concession? Hell no. I would get ejected out there. But I love watching the best in the world play courses like that. Not every week but it is SO MUCH better than watching TPC Sodfarm or (ugh) Quail Hollow. Those are driving range golf courses. That stuff is so tired. 

[fixyurdivot]

3 hours ago, cnosil said:

Yep, went over my head.    Make it harder and they still complain.  I really liked what Jack did to the bunkers at the Memorial in 2006?  The bunkers actually penalized the players because they weren’t in “perfect” condition due to the rake design. 

Oh, and I like hearing them whine and complain about course conditions too . Basically it's just the jealous, envious side of me, watching them make it look way to easy, that is typing .  

 

3 hours ago, vandyland said:

I enjoyed the course setup when they played The Concession for the WGC Workday because they didn't have to make it super long to be interesting and challenging.

That was a cool venue and I'd like to see them return there.

[revkev]

Aren't revenues and purses up? 

It's a professional sport, that's the goal, I don't think there's an issue.  

Given a full season there will be tournaments when the conditions and course are tough and around -8 wins as well as times where it takes 25-30 under. In a full season the entire game gets tested - distance always has been and always will be a significant factor in passing that test.

[BostonSal]

I think that every major tournament course should be set up so that a sixteen handicapper could enjoy playing it 

and so touring pros are always threatening to break sixty.

Defending par against tour players is the reason I don't care even a little bit about pro golf as entertainment anymore.

 

Other sports...baseball, football, hockey, basketball, boxing, and whatever aren't recreational activities for me as a senior,

so I don't have to be able to relate to them to enjoy them as entertainment.

Tennis, bowling, and pool are recreational games, however,

and I'll note that the best players in the world play on the same dimension court, lane, or table that you and I might use.

 

Settiung up 150 acres acres of manicured land for a tiny percentage of players is absolutely absurd to me.

If the pros played at 6000-6200 yards, I'd understand what the hell I was watching

and could then appreciate how good they actually are compared, say, to our club champion or resident pro.

 

I know that this is a minority opinion, but I hope that you don't mind me sharing it.

It's just another perspective.

 

 

 

[GaDawg]

If the Pros had to play some of the courses that us amateur golfers played, they would appreciate the conditions they have. How would they fair in bunkers with very little sand that had not been raked in weeks, fairways with very little  or no grass in areas. I understand and agree that the Pros are great golfers, but they play in prefect weather on perfect conditions with equipment that has been fitted perfectly for them. They should be scoring very well!

[vandyland]

18 hours ago, BostonSal said:

If the pros played at 6000-6200 yards, I'd understand what the hell I was watching

This is an interesting angle, actually. I think by making the courses longer and longer they are eliminating certain types of players from contention. If they played the courses much shorter, even a guy that "only" hits it about 275 off the tee could compete with the long hitters. However, if it would also likely shift the importance of putting to an even higher plane. I frankly don't enjoy watching tour players hit a bunch of putts. I like seeing well executed shots, typically where they have to curve it or flight it down. 

I think everyone has wondered what it would be like if a tour event came to their local muni. Mine for example tips out at 6,000 yds and is a par 70. Even on the first 9, at least 3 of the par 4s are driveable (for a longish tour pro, not me). It would likely be boring to watch for everyone else but who knows?

Edited February 3, 2022 by vandyland