Wedge High Spin Shafts

[GolfSpy WD]

Just curious what everyone here thinks of this article by Wishon. He doesn't call out any specific wedge shafts but essentially says most of the are useless because soft stepping once isn't going to dramatically effect anything. Plus, he did these tests with a robot

 

http://wishongolf.com/will-wedge-shafts-improve-my-game/

 

(part of this is self serving on Wishon's part, but it's interesting that he sets his wedge shafts two flexes soft or extremely stiff)

 

 

It's been a number of years ago since a few of the shaft companies began to offer shafts specifically designed for wedges. Anyone remember the name “Spinner” as an example of a wedge specific shaft?

 

The concept behind most wedge specific shafts is to try to use the shaft as a way to increase the backspin on a wedge shot. The idea involves designing the shaft with a little softer flex than what would be normal when an iron shaft is tip trimmed its normal amount for use in a wedge. The belief is if the wedge shaft is a little more flexible, it will cause the dynamic loft of the wedge at impact to be higher, which in turn will increase the amount of backspin on the shot.

 

The majority of wedge specific shafts are produced to have the same flexibility as the 8-iron shaft in a full set of iron shafts. In other words, to be about ½ flex softer than what a normal wedge shaft would be.

 

The other side of this coin is the thought that some golfers might develop better timing or rhythm with their wedge shots if they can slightly feel the shaft bend or flex a little more during the swing. This of course is a purely esoteric approach because what one golfer feels and likes, another golfer cannot and may or may not.

 

In truth, I did robot hit testing some years ago to discover if there was a difference in launch angle and spin with one of the typical half flex softer wedge shafts versus an iron shaft trimmed as conventional for a wedge. In a nutshell, there really is not enough difference in launch angle and spin rate to account for any performance difference with a wedge shaft that is designed to have the same flex as an 8-iron shaft.

 

That testing is what prompted me to take the direction I did when I designed two different wedge specific shafts for my company. The TWGT High Flight steel wedge shaft is designed to be 2 FULL FLEXES softer than a conventional shaft in a wedge. And our TWGT Knock-Down wedge shaft is designed to be similar to a XXX flex.

 

My concept was that if a golfer really wanted a softer feel or the chance for a higher launch/higher spin shot with the wedge, to do that would require making the shaft a LOT more flexible than the typical wedge specific shafts available in the industry. And conversely for the golfer who wants a dead stiff shaft in the wedge because he FEELS this would offer more control and accuracy, to do that requires the shaft to be VERY stiff.

 

At the end of the day, this matter of wedge specific shafts falls into the category of “if the golfer FEELS it is better,” the confidence that feeling may generate makes the decision worthwhile to do. Otherwise the same shaft you like in your numbered irons is going to be fine for use in your wedges.

 

Until next time,

 

TOM

[BK in TEXAS]

Interesting. I don't think I'm good enough to tell the difference one way or the other. Never tried though either

[RookieBlue7]

Of course he's going to tell you it doesn't work, because he's marketing his shaft with it. I can tell you that in the exact same head, using the DG Spinner I added spin over a standard DG. With the same wedge head, I also added spin with a KBS Hi-Rev over a KBS tour. I also added spin in the same wedge head by going from a standard Royal Precision Rifle to a Rifle Spinner. And lastly, I added spin by using an 8-iron shaft one flex higher and soft stepping it once into the same wedge I had the standard PW/9-iron shaft in. I've seen it robot tested before with all of them as well, and every one of the above added spin on a robot. It's good marketing speak, but wouldn't going 2 flexes softer be the same as using a flex higher's 7-iron shaft and soft stepping it twice into the wedge? Example: You normally play DG S300's, you buy an X100 7-iron shaft and install it in the wedge. That's soft stepping that shaft twice, essentially the same thing as his 2 flex softer shafts.

 

I've been Tiger stepping shafts in my wedges for years. I do it for the added spin and feel on delicate shots around the greens. Yes, I have DG Spinners as well, and they work phenomenally well also. But old habits die hard, and I've got a pile of X100 8-iron shafts lying around.

[GolfSpy WD]

Of course he's going to tell you it doesn't work, because he's marketing his shaft with it. I can tell you that in the exact same head, using the DG Spinner I added spin over a standard DG. With the same wedge head, I also added spin with a KBS Hi-Rev over a KBS tour. I also added spin in the same wedge head by going from a standard Royal Precision Rifle to a Rifle Spinner. And lastly, I added spin by using an 8-iron shaft one flex higher and soft stepping it once into the same wedge I had the standard PW/9-iron shaft in. I've seen it robot tested before with all of them as well, and every one of the above added spin on a robot. It's good marketing speak, but wouldn't going 2 flexes softer be the same as using a flex higher's 7-iron shaft and soft stepping it twice into the wedge? Example: You normally play DG S300's, you buy an X100 7-iron shaft and install it in the wedge. That's soft stepping that shaft twice, essentially the same thing as his 2 flex softer shafts.

 

I've been Tiger stepping shafts in my wedges for years. I do it for the added spin and feel on delicate shots around the greens. Yes, I have DG Spinners as well, and they work phenomenally well also. But old habits die hard, and I've got a pile of X100 8-iron shafts lying around.

 

That was sort of my thought as well. I remember reading about the Spinners when they were first released, saying they bring 500+ rpm over comparable shafts.

 

For my next set of shafts, I was thinking Tiger stepping some KBS tours. What do you think of using Hi-rev vs spinner vs Tiger stepping? Is there any significant difference or just personal preference?

[ms1195]

I thought the "spin" shafts also had different bend profiles than typical wedge shafts (softer tip, etc.)? The DG Spinner clearly is not just a weaker flex shaft, with its hour glass cutout thing going on. Haven't used one of those, but I have used a rifle spinner for a couple of seasons. I thought it was a great shaft, and i think it certainly outspun a typical s400 wedge shaft. I'm not buyin this article.

[RookieBlue7]

That was sort of my thought as well. I remember reading about the Spinners when they were first released, saying they bring 500+ rpm over comparable shafts.

 

For my next set of shafts, I was thinking Tiger stepping some KBS tours. What do you think of using Hi-rev vs spinner vs Tiger stepping? Is there any significant difference or just personal preference?

 

 

None are a bad option, all will increase the spin on the touch shots from what you're getting now with standard shafts. I Tiger step because I literally bought a pile of X100 8 iron shafts. (They were on clearance and they had a bunch of 8 iron shafts and I got them for $3 each. Don't use X100 in my irons, but I do use them in wedges in an 8 iron, so I bought all he had, which was close to 40.)

[RoverRick]

I have two different shafts in my wedges. I have KBS Wedge (not high rev) Shafts XStiff in my 51 and 64. I also have a DG Spinner in my 56. I will say that I can feel a difference over the standard DG Wedge shaft with these. Also the spinner does seem more flexible and have more spin.

 

Also, I read that Scor uses a special shaft made by KBS and would be interested in hearing how those are from our recent winners. Tyk has been playing some for a while, and apparently likes them also because he was thrilled to order more and is replacing his 9 iron and Pitching wedge with Scors.

 

 

I will tell you a secret. If you want to add more spin and loft, relax your grip. Soft hands allow more action from the club. This is one of the reasons that the bigger grips help add spin. They are easier to hold with a light grip pressure. If you want less spin, thighten your grip. I have been trying this this week and have concluded it really does work. This also explains how I have really hit down on the ball and put a bunch of spin on it and it still bounced forward some. And other times I hit down on it and it landed softly and backed up. Grip pressure. It probably has more effect than the different shafts. And cheaper that reshafting you wedges.

 

Let the discussion commence.

[revkev]

I'm a neophite in regards to equipment but not in regards to golf.

 

My question would be that if it weren't the case the a shaft makes a difference in spin why would one driver with the same head and different shafts spin significantly differently when swung by the same golfer?

 

It just doesn't make sense that a shaft wouldn't make an appreciable difference in spin rates. I'm not buying on this one.

 

I'm also a bit stumped here - I've never had graphite in my bottom two wedges - I've had graphite in my pitching wedge and for a time in my gap although I currently have steel in all three of those bottom wedges -

 

I'm thinking of keeping it that way.

 

Talk me down or not.

 

Thanks

[Ice]

KBS Hi-Rev. DO it.

[RoverRick]

I can totally understand that in a robot there is not a tremendous difference in spin based on shaft alone. Just like I can make a ball spin more or less by grip pressure, angle of attack, and follow through. I have made a 6 iron with a KBS C Taper shaft xstiff hit and stop and I have made the same set up bounce and roll. So there is much more to it than just equipment. Does the equipment make a difference, certainly. That same iron with DG R300 in it would probably back up and come in tremendeously higher. But I would not say that there is NO difference.

[RookieBlue7]

I'm a neophite in regards to equipment but not in regards to golf.

 

My question would be that if it weren't the case the a shaft makes a difference in spin why would one driver with the same head and different shafts spin significantly differently when swung by the same golfer?

 

It just doesn't make sense that a shaft wouldn't make an appreciable difference in spin rates. I'm not buying on this one.

 

I'm also a bit stumped here - I've never had graphite in my bottom two wedges - I've had graphite in my pitching wedge and for a time in my gap although I currently have steel in all three of those bottom wedges -

 

I'm thinking of keeping it that way.

 

Talk me down or not.

 

Thanks

 

Rev,

They make high spin graphite shafts. Aldila pioneered it with the Lobster.

[RookieBlue7]

I'm a neophite in regards to equipment but not in regards to golf.

 

My question would be that if it weren't the case the a shaft makes a difference in spin why would one driver with the same head and different shafts spin significantly differently when swung by the same golfer?

 

It just doesn't make sense that a shaft wouldn't make an appreciable difference in spin rates. I'm not buying on this one.

 

I'm also a bit stumped here - I've never had graphite in my bottom two wedges - I've had graphite in my pitching wedge and for a time in my gap although I currently have steel in all three of those bottom wedges -

 

I'm thinking of keeping it that way.

 

Talk me down or not.

 

Thanks

 

Rev,

They make high spin graphite shafts. Aldila pioneered it with the Lobster and the Spin Stick Prototype (I have a few of each of those too, lol).

[skihippy]

+1 not buying it at all.. I have the DG spinner in my 46,50,54,58 and I can either get it to drop dead or get some back spin that I never have been able to do before...

[Kanoito]

Sorry for the n00b question, but I thought soft/hard stepping was just to get to in-between flexes and modify ball flight.

 

Do you soft or hard step to increase spin on wedges? What is Tiger step?

[revkev]

Steve - I do know enough to say that ball flight and spin go hand in hand.

 

Rookie my rationale for the steal shafts was the old better "feel" argument. I was never a back the ball up player even in the old balata days. That's kind of funny when you think about it - if you recall the start of that debate its not that I don't think feel exists. My swing has always produced a hop and stop or hop and back up minimally type of wedge shot - I pretty much end up where the ball landed which IMO is good.

 

I agree that there are now graphite shafts that are high spin and that have great feel. In fact since I use graphite in the rest of my clubs it may well be time to go all the way.

 

The more I've thought about this its no doubt that case that on part wedge shots there isn't a huge difference in spin between shafts with a machine (I won't use that word until I have all prizes safely in my possession.) Part of control your wedges around the green comes from technique as RR has said - I abounded the full slop a long time ago (although I can hit it if need be) for a modified flop shot that combines trajectory and spin. I think RR's point is spot on. With a clean lie that shot stops on a dime. I'm anxious to see if I can execute that one with the new grooves. I could take the same wedge, same distance and play my standard pitch, and have it roll out 15 feet.

[Matt Saternus]

While I know that Wishon obviously has an agenda to push, I wouldn't dismiss his findings out of hand. The things that I've seen lately, both in doing research for Labs articles and in doing some interesting fittings, have really driven home the point that the most important thing is how the player interacts with the equipment.

 

The best recent example I have: a gentleman (decent player) came in so that I could tell him if his driver was a good fit and to find the right setting (he has a 910D2). He kept telling me that his shaft felt too soft/whippy/etc. He had very moderate club head speed, launched it a little low, didn't spin it much, and he hit pushes to the right. The obvious answer here was to keep him in the high torque, high spin, high launch that he had...but I had time to burn, so we tried a heavier, lower torque, stiffer shaft. BOOM! Started striping it down the middle. Launch and spin still weren't optimal, but that was fixed with more loft. Easy peasy: straighter and longer, thank you very much.

 

Point is: "the book" says that a higher torque shaft will help this guy square the club face. In reality, I SAW that the high torque made him FEEL like he had to "hold it off" instead of releasing the club. A low torque shaft let him FEEL like he could rip at it, which made the results 100% better.

 

Repeat after me: Robots don't swing clubs, humans do.

[revkev]

Absolutely and that's why I think Wishon's results were correct but not helpful in the real world.

[RookieBlue7]

Sorry for the n00b question, but I thought soft/hard stepping was just to get to in-between flexes and modify ball flight.

 

Do you soft or hard step to increase spin on wedges? What is Tiger step?

 

Hard stepping/soft stepping is to get between flexes. In wedges, you also do it to create a more or less active tip. Soft stepping, to a point of diminishing returns, is the way to increase spin. You also go up a flex from what you normally play before soft stepping. Take any of the spinner shafts (save the DG Spinner) and their counterpart in the same brand (KBS Tour and Hi-Rev). Measure the distance from the tip to the first step, the spinner shaft is identical in measure to the 8 iron.

 

Tiger stepping is the 8 iron in the wedges to increase spin. It's an old clubmaking trick, but no one ever talked about it. Tiger has been doing it for years, and so naturally when he does something, they reference him for it, ie Tiger stepping a wedge.

[RoverRick]

I decided to revive this thread because I recently added a Mizuno T11 56* to the bag with a Spinner shaft. This has been a game changer for me. I can do it all with this club and while I still use a PW or 8 iron for some chips, this 56 is almost the exclusive inside 85 yard club. I first visualize throwing the ball at the flag with my right elbow touching my right side. To see how much body rotation I will have to have. And then do the same thing with the club in my hand.

 

I can spin this and make it stop or make it run out. So since I have been able to use this for every shot, even the flop, with the spinner shaft, I have added more clubs at the top of the bag to make it

 

Previously, I had one, two counting the driver off the deck, clubs to use outside 200 yards. I had 4 or 5 wedges to use from 120 in. Now, with this club and shaft that is the master of all the shots, I have been able to take out the 60 and 64 degree wedges and 15.5 * Fairway and add a 13* & 17* fairway wood and a 2 iron to the mix. Today from 230 yards out into a slight breeze, 8 mph, I was able to go for the green amd actually made it.

 

I did some experimenting and found that I was no closer with the other wedges than just using the one wedge. This is different than I have said in the past, and honestly it has required a lot of work with that one wedge. I think for the higher handicappers it may be best to ditch the long clubs and go with more wedges, but for me it is changing the way I approach the game.

[ZenGolfer]

Of course he's going to tell you it doesn't work, because he's marketing his shaft with it.

^ This. Its not as if Wishon doesnt have a horse in this race. I can tell you from personal experience that the DG Spinner spins more than the standard True Temper wedge shafts or R300. Even with the new grooves, my MP R-12 spins just as much, if not more than the T-10 and T-11s that Ive owned.

[lmh3]

I have two sets of the same wedges, one with the DG Spinners and the other with DG S400. I find that the Spinners produce a diminishing spin rate increase the harder I swing. On short pitches and half shots, the Spinners produce a pretty good difference from the S400. On full shots, the difference is a lot less.

[ltcmarcpaul]

OK, OK, my head hurts already. I play PXi 7.0's in my Callaway Tour Prototype baldes and LOVE them. What do you recommend I put in my Callaway Jaws 608 wedge to increase the spin rate?? Thank you!

[ltcmarcpaul]

Jaws 60*

[RoverRick]

I bought some KBS Hi Rev shafts and put in my Mizuno MP T 11 64* and my Scratch 58* and it did increase the spin on the partial shots. But Sunday just for the heck of it I took two Titleist Vokey Series 200 wedges, with Oil Can finish in 56 and 60 with DG Wedge shafts. My biggest problem is that they stopped the ball too soon. Wow. It is amazing how much better these fit my swing than the Mizzies, Scratch, Callaway, Cleveland that I have tried. I even tried some Taylormades that worked really well for me but I did not buy them, and went with different shafts instead.

 

I was really surprised by the Vokeys. I have had these for a number of years but never gamed them. They have a custom paint fill and leather grips so they are really cool on top of that but I never expected then to be that much different.

[RookieBlue7]

OK, OK, my head hurts already. I play PXi 7.0's in my Callaway Tour Prototype baldes and LOVE them. What do you recommend I put in my Callaway Jaws 608 wedge to increase the spin rate?? Thank you!

 

 

Where did you find Pxi 7.0's? I was under the impression they only went up to 6.5's. I'll check with the gentleman I speak with at True Temper (parent company) and see what he says as far as creating a spinner shaft and if they make them in a 7.5 (cause to create a spinner, you'd need the next flex up in an 8 iron shaft, so you'd need a 7.5).

[RookieBlue7]

I bought some KBS Hi Rev shafts and put in my Mizuno MP T 11 64* and my Scratch 58* and it did increase the spin on the partial shots. But Sunday just for the heck of it I took two Titleist Vokey Series 200 wedges, with Oil Can finish in 56 and 60 with DG Wedge shafts. My biggest problem is that they stopped the ball too soon. Wow. It is amazing how much better these fit my swing than the Mizzies, Scratch, Callaway, Cleveland that I have tried. I even tried some Taylormades that worked really well for me but I did not buy them, and went with different shafts instead.

 

I was really surprised by the Vokeys. I have had these for a number of years but never gamed them. They have a custom paint fill and leather grips so they are really cool on top of that but I never expected then to be that much different.

 

 

Rick could it be conforming grooves vs non-conforming? I don't keep up with Mizzy wedges so don't know which model it was where they switched them to CC grooves. Doesn't really matter, cause if it works it works right? Just trying to think of what could be causing the spin increase.

[RoverRick]

Rick could it be conforming grooves vs non-conforming? I don't keep up with Mizzy wedges so don't know which model it was where they switched them to CC grooves. Doesn't really matter, cause if it works it works right? Just trying to think of what could be causing the spin increase.

 

These Vokey 200 series were the first generation of C-C grooves, so it is not just the grooves. There is really no reason why the Titleist wedges work better for me. But it is like the ball and a Titleist driver, I have found drivers and balls that I hit farther and straighter that out perform Titleist but at the end of the day, my score seems to be lower with the Titleist. It may be that I am a freaking nut and it is psychological but it works for me.

 

I am trying a new Nike ball but would not be surprised to learn it does everything but fall in the hole better than the Pro V1.

 

As a side note, I after firing 5 of 7 rounds and 10 rounds over a 4 week period in the 60's I changed from MP33's to MP59's. The reason is simple. I hit the 59's higher, longer, and straighter. But guess what. After 4 weeks of the MP59's a 71 is the closest I have been. Go figure. I am changing back to the 33's as soon as my Epoxy arrives. but I can not explain that.

[RookieBlue7]

These Vokey 200 series were the first generation of C-C grooves, so it is not just the grooves. There is really no reason why the Titleist wedges work better for me. But it is like the ball and a Titleist driver, I have found drivers and balls that I hit farther and straighter that out perform Titleist but at the end of the day, my score seems to be lower with the Titleist. It may be that I am a freaking nut and it is psychological but it works for me.

 

I am trying a new Nike ball but would not be surprised to learn it does everything but fall in the hole better than the Pro V1.

 

As a side note, I after firing 5 of 7 rounds and 10 rounds over a 4 week period in the 60's I changed from MP33's to MP59's. The reason is simple. I hit the 59's higher, longer, and straighter. But guess what. After 4 weeks of the MP59's a 71 is the closest I have been. Go figure. I am changing back to the 33's as soon as my Epoxy arrives. but I can not explain that.

 

 

I can. They're like an old dog you've had since he was a puppy. Hard to get rid of something you love or get comfortable with. Why you think I bought a set of older model heads to duplicate an iron set I had a few years ago? Comfort bro, lol. I have had irons I hit better, but with the cash on the line, I trust these more than any I've ever had.

[ltcmarcpaul]

When I saw these 7.0's for sale I thought that they didn't come that stiff so I called True Temper and he said &.0's were available off the Tour Van. They are great shafts and I'm surprised they are not available. The PX play a flex stiffer (feel) than the PXi so I put a PX 7.0 in my SW. Now I just need something for my 60*.

[B81Smith]

Oddly, I'm testing a set of new Bridgestone XW-1 wedges out for a review and they came with DG Spinners.  I've never tried them before, I have no problem stopping anything from a 4 iron on down and usually I'm worried about spinning shots back too much with s400, s300 and x100's.  NOW, oddly with this brand new set of wedges...I cannot spin a shot back worth a crap. LOL. 

 

Anyone else experience this? 

 

I'm sure there's a reason a ton of tour players aren't playing DG spinners.....I wonder if there is a certain type of swing/load profile where DG spinners actually knock the spin off?  The grooves in the wedges look great, milling marks on the face with similar lines across like a Cleveland wedge with zip grooves but usually a new wedge for me takes the covers off balls.

 

I've hit at least two shots right over flag sticks to decent greens licking my chops thinking oh baby this is gonna be nice when it rips back to the hole and instead it drop n stops.....Odd.