Why do people flock to OEMs?

[hendricks97]

There's also the perception that some doctors get kickbacks for perscribing certain meds.

 

Just like some fitters get kickbacks for directing their clients to certain brands.

[ninjacobra]

i really agree with what u jst said Justin66. if u got an ok club head and a shaft tt matches ur swing u can get by with some pretty impressive results.

 

the shaft is really the engine in the golf club. put on a callaway head with a junk shaft u get shots that balloon like crazy.

[cheymike]

John Q Public and his wife are walking down the sidewalk at the mall, chatting about needing a new hobby. John asks his wife if she thinks she might be interested in playing golf so they can do something together. The wife says sure, it sounds like a good idea. Soooo... they walk into the (insert name of big box store here) and what do they see? Large displays by the large OEMs, pictures/posters of big name golfers playing "X" equipment, etc. Since they realize they are just starting out, they KNOW they don't need "the best" and they decide to purchase a men's and ladies starter set of brand "Z" clubs. They play a little in the coming weeks and start to get more interested. Mr Public takes out a subscription to the "major magazine" and he sees the ads and reviews in there and decides his and his wife's next set of clubs will be brand "Y" because major magazine gives them a gold star rating and after all, "major tour winner name here" plays them.

After many moons, John gets involved with a few golf forums on the 'net. He begins to read and read and read. WOW is he learning a lot. He learns things like "all the clubs are made in about 4-5 factories overseas". He might hear of guys like Wishon, Maltby, Long, and some others. But he doesn't pay too much attention and keeps seeing those ads in major magazine. And after all this time "major tour winner name here" is still playing brand "Y". It has GOT to be because brand "Y" is the best and goes longer, straighter, higher, faster.

Guess what Mr and Mrs Public are going to buy the next time they decide to get new clubs? Yep...

[Justin66]

I laugh at the "race car- inspired" stuff. Yeah, right. If anyone believes that stuff, I have some ocean front property in Arizona I'd like to sell you... Anyone notice that Callaway's new ads say "Titanium is dead"? If this Lamborghini-inspired carbon fiber is so great, why aren't they making their main selling point "The carbon fiber we used last year, and the year before that and the year before that, is dead"? That would be false advertisement, though (I think I said this in a different post, but can't remember right now...).

 

And that is true, Hendricks... some DO get that. It sucks. There's also the places that will hit the "boost" button on the luanch monitor/simulator to make a person feel they're hitting something longer than they think they do, just to make a sale.

 

They're both related, Ninja- if you can get a "perfect" shaft, there's a head that just will not work with it. You can have a "perfect" head, but there's a shaft that won't work for it, either. A person has an ideal loft and face angle based on their mechanics and swing speed; for shafts it's flex and torque. There's no point in putting an over-the-top, slow-swinger into a 9*, open-faced head with a S-flex with 3.5 or less degrees of torque, no matter who makes either.

 

Let's put it this way: the shaft I have sells for $17 brand new. It weighs ~72g after trimming (my ideal weight) and has 3.3* torque, with a "high" bendpoint. Just for the record, I have an average SS of 102 mph and hit this shaft (with an Acer XK head) 265 yards on average. It's called "Blue Crush", made by True Ace and has been my favorite (tied with the old Grafalloy Blue).

 

The point is, there is absolutely something for everyone at every price point. It's just a matter of what a person wants to spend. The OEMs charge an arm and a leg because of the perceptions they (and the mainstream golf media) have built over the years. They aren't the "best" (because of all the golfers and all their differing needs/wants, it's impossible to truthfully quantify "best"), but they tell everyone they are. It's psychological: you tell yourself something repeatedly, eventually you're going to believe it. That's what the major OEM's do... pretty simple, really. Hell, they do it to themselves: "You know, this latest model is SO much better than the one you bought from us 6 months ago. It's 2% this and 7% that. Not only that, your old beater retails for $100 now and this one is $300- that alone tells you it's better". LOL... too bad they don't tell you any ACTUAL numbers to figure out what a difference 2% really is.

 

It doesn't make you less of a golfer by gaming clones or offbrands, it doesn't make you more of a golfer (or a "real" golfer) by gaming name brands.

[ninjacobra]

I laugh at the "race car- inspired" stuff. Yeah, right. If anyone believes that stuff, I have some ocean front property in Arizona I'd like to sell you... Anyone notice that Callaway's new ads say "Titanium is dead"? If this Lamborghini-inspired carbon fiber is so great, why aren't they making their main selling point "The carbon fiber we used last year, and the year before that and the year before that, is dead"? That would be false advertisement, though (I think I said this in a different post, but can't remember right now...).

 

And that is true, Hendricks... some DO get that. It sucks. There's also the places that will hit the "boost" button on the luanch monitor/simulator to make a person feel they're hitting something longer than they think they do, just to make a sale.

 

They're both related, Ninja- if you can get a "perfect" shaft, there's a head that just will not work with it. You can have a "perfect" head, but there's a shaft that won't work for it, either. A person has an ideal loft and face angle based on their mechanics and swing speed; for shafts it's flex and torque. There's no point in putting an over-the-top, slow-swinger into a 9*, open-faced head with a S-flex with 3.5 or less degrees of torque, no matter who makes either.

 

Let's put it this way: the shaft I have sells for $17 brand new. It weighs ~72g after trimming (my ideal weight) and has 3.3* torque, with a "high" bendpoint. Just for the record, I have an average SS of 102 mph and hit this shaft (with an Acer XK head) 265 yards on average. It's called "Blue Crush", made by True Ace and has been my favorite (tied with the old Grafalloy Blue).

 

The point is, there is absolutely something for everyone at every price point. It's just a matter of what a person wants to spend. The OEMs charge an arm and a leg because of the perceptions they (and the mainstream golf media) have built over the years. They aren't the "best" (because of all the golfers and all their differing needs/wants, it's impossible to truthfully quantify "best"), but they tell everyone they are. It's psychological: you tell yourself something repeatedly, eventually you're going to believe it. That's what the major OEM's do... pretty simple, really. Hell, they do it to themselves: "You know, this latest model is SO much better than the one you bought from us 6 months ago. It's 2% this and 7% that. Not only that, your old beater retails for $100 now and this one is $300- that alone tells you it's better". LOL... too bad they don't tell you any ACTUAL numbers to figure out what a difference 2% really is.

 

It doesn't make you less of a golfer by gaming clones or offbrands, it doesn't make you more of a golfer (or a "real" golfer) by gaming name brands.

 

it all comes down to finding the right shaft for your game. whether ur shaft cost 14 dollars or 114 dollars its a crap shaft if it doesnt suit ur specs.

 

what i mean by ok head and good shaft is like putting a 2 year older model head with a shaft that is suitable for you and u cld play that as well as a $500 brand new fitted driver.

 

ur old ft iq really isnt much likely to be outperformed by megatron if u have been fitted

[Justin66]

it all comes down to finding the right shaft for your game. whether ur shaft cost 14 dollars or 114 dollars its a crap shaft if it doesnt suit ur specs.

 

what i mean by ok head and good shaft is like putting a 2 year older model head with a shaft that is suitable for you and u cld play that as well as a $500 brand new fitted driver.

 

ur old ft iq really isnt much likely to be outperformed by megatron if u have been fitted

 

+1 Ninja. Here's something to stir the pot: in The Modern Guide to Clubmaking, there's a portion in the "Shafts" chapter (p. 26, specifically) that gives the reason why the Rifles/Project X's and KBS's are more expensive. Here's a little factoid from the book: The smaller a shaft's steps are, the less expensive it cost to make. It's because with the smaller steps, there are more manufacturing processes and chances for rejects. Now, a quote:

 

"Step forming was created to ensure consistencies in wall diameters and aid in lowering the reject rate during the manufacturing process. Today's stepless designs do offer the same consistency as stepped shafts, but usually are sold at a premium because of the higher reject rates involved in their manufacture"

 

Notice there's nothing in there about performance-enhancing qualities. So, as I've mentioned in other posts (along with multiple sources), if you have a $3 Apollo shaft and compare it to a $15 True Temper and a $30 KBS, so long as they have the same characteristics, they'll all perform the same.

[hendricks97]

I have to disagree with that statement. I had FST $7.00 shafts in my irons and changed to KBS at the beginning of the season. Not only did my distance increase, my ball flight even out between clubs (the FST were all over the place trajectory wise from club to club), they just flat out feel better on all hits. Both shafts have the same Maltby playability coding

[Justin66]

I have to disagree with that statement. I had FST $7.00 shafts in my irons and changed to KBS at the beginning of the season. Not only did my distance increase, my ball flight even out between clubs (the FST were all over the place trajectory wise from club to club), they just flat out feel better on all hits. Both shafts have the same Maltby playability coding

 

I know there are some weird things in the MPF. Mine's 4B2H; for drivers, it lists stuff like the Attas 70 and 80, Axivcore Green 75/Black 70... stuff with 3.3* or less torque, basically, with one exception: the Fujikura Sakura shaft. That has a torque rating of 5*. I've never tried one, so I really don't know what it's like, but still... it leaves me with a feeling. Like, "why is that there?". Kinda weird.

 

That said, though, it's pretty much as close to fact as I've experienced... that there are no differences, that is. This is based on a pretty long list of experts: Tom Wishon, Ralph Maltby, Jeff Summit, Jeff Sheets, the guys at Golftec, GolfWorks (independent of Maltby), Golfsmith (independent of Sheets) and Frank Thomas. I've tried contacting True Temper (TT, Grafalloy and PX), Aldila, UST/Mamiya and Graphite Design... none of them have responded to my emails. Go figure.

 

If you've experienced a change, either it's in your feelings towards your equipment (the psychological effect of your equipment should NOT be discounted), or there is one or more characteristics that differ between the KBS and FST. Just to note: I'm getting ready to get into a shaft test. Irons, to start. I'm going to pick up a PX and KBS shaft (6i shafts)- hopefully soon. I'm trying to keep them as close to the same specs as possible. No, I'm not some company (I wish), but this has been gnawing at me for some time... I'm going to do something about it now. Besides, it'll give me something to do over the winter.

[Dave]

You do realize that the torque rating is the most pointless and meaningless measurement in golf today. Different manufacturer's don't even the measure it the same way so how can it mean anything.

[Xamilo]

You do realize that the torque rating is the most pointless and meaningless measurement in golf today. Different manufacturer's don't even the measure it the same way so how can it mean anything.

 

You're wrong. Kick-Point is even less useful than torque

[jamo]

Well, this isn't really where I intended the thread to go, but it's been great reading. Keep it going.

[Justin66]

You do realize that the torque rating is the most pointless and meaningless measurement in golf today. Different manufacturer's don't even the measure it the same way so how can it mean anything.

 

 

You're wrong. Kick-Point is even less useful than torque

 

 

I feel a little differently. There's little difference between a torque of 3.3* and 3*, but there is a difference between 5* and 3*. Jeff Sheets (Golfsmith) did a test and showed that torque has a direct effect on the gear effect of a driver. A shaft that's too stiff won't allow the head's gear effect to work, leading to only pushed shots on toe-hits from a robot. A shaft (with the exact same head) that had a higher torque rating overcorrected the ball's flight. There is a happy medium, but it has to be found (taken from "The Perfect Fit").

 

Kickpoint, also called bendpoint (and sometimes used seperately, depending on what someone's trying to sell) only produces an ~1* difference between "low" and "high" launch... that can be used if you're looking to lower (or raise) your launch a degree, though. It does effect the apex, so if you're specifically looking for something, KP can be used as a way to find it.

[Dave]

Torque would be a meaningful measurement if every shaft manufacturer measured it in the same way, but they don't. So how can compare 2 different shafts from different brands using the torque number, when they weren't measured in the same manner to start with.

 

Just because shafts X and Y both a reading of 3.5, doesn't mean that they have the same amount, if they measured differently is what I'm trying to say.

[ninjacobra]

i knw wut kick point does but wut does torque effectively do in a golf shaft?

[Dave]

Torque is a measurement of supposedly how much the shaft twists during a swing. The higher the number the more it twists. By twist I don't mend bend, thats flex. Twist as in rotational movement of the shaft.

[Justin66]

Torque is a measurement of supposedly how much the shaft twists during a swing. The higher the number the more it twists. By twist I don't mend bend, thats flex. Twist as in rotational movement of the shaft.

 

 

It's the same with flex: every company measures it (flex and torque) differently. There's even varience in methodology from model to model within the same brand! As for torque, there's another little caveat... stated torque vs. cut torque. Some models have a drop in torque the more material is taken from the tip. There's also been known instances where torque went up in the same method of cutting! This is why Sheets suggests only working with stated torque, it saves a lot of confusion for yourself and anyone you fit. Hireko.com has their Dynamic Shaft Fitting Addendum (found in the "blog" section) that has a lot of pretty useful information. It's not complete, though... there are a lot of newer brands not on it.

 

Just for fun: some OEMs even test their MOI and COR differently, which has led to some drivers being ruled nonconforming when done by the USGA's testing standards.

[Justin66]

i knw wut kick point does but wut does torque effectively do in a golf shaft?

 

As Dave said, torque is a shaft's ability to resist twisting. Driver head MOI and its horizontal bulge (how convex the face is from heel-to-toe; it determines how much gear effect the driver has) are the two main influences on a driver's ability to resist twisting. The shaft helps (see the above post), but it's a distant third compared to the above two (especially since the center of gravity of the head is away from, and not inline with, the center of gravity location of the shaft). Torque's more noticable effect is on feel: the lower the torque, the more "boardy" a shaft will feel. Conversely, the more torque it has, the more "whippy" it will feel.

[d.lama]

Basically just as the title and subtitle say: why do people flock to the big OEM golf companies? Besides the obvious reason that they are most available.

 

The thing is, we really haven't seen any companies (other than Nike, which is an obvious exception because they had Tiger Woods and were already the biggest sports equipment company in the world) rise up and become a golf superpower.

 

Companies such as Scratch, Miura, and Fourteen than are starting to catch on are all niche companies, known for their precise forging and beautiful clubs.

 

For example, do you think if Scratch (or Miura or Fourteen) made cast clubs as ugly (IMO) as some Callaways and PINGs, would they be half as big as they are? I doubt it.

 

Because I can't truly test drive a non-OEM club. I can't drive over the the range and ask the guy to work my way through a set of scratch clubs to see if they are really right for me, what shafts work best for me in them - test driving a set of Scratch irons pretty much means buying the set and losing money if I don't like them. I know scratch makes the best heads and I know %99 of the people love them, but taking that %1 chance probably isn't worth it for me and my wallet right now.

[Justin66]

Because I can't truly test drive a non-OEM club. I can't drive over the the range and ask the guy to work my way through a set of scratch clubs to see if they are really right for me, what shafts work best for me in them - test driving a set of Scratch irons pretty much means buying the set and losing money if I don't like them. I know scratch makes the best heads and I know %99 of the people love them, but taking that %1 chance probably isn't worth it for me and my wallet right now.

 

 

It's even more difficult doing that as a lefty. At least with components, I can buy a 6 or 7 iron head (for between $5 and $25, depending on some factors) and give it a go. If I don't like it, I'm out the cost of a head- not the whole set.

[Dhuck Whooker]

Be ever so humble, this is my 1st post..

 

I've assembled my own clubs with components from Golfsmith or Golfworks. My golf buddies often scoff that the OEM clubs have got to be better because they are assembled "professionally" and mine were cheap knock-offs. (they weren't knock-offs, and they weren't cheap either, and never did one of my heads go flying down the range.)

 

This summer I took a chance and got a Bang driver, a UST Mamiya shaft after having my "swing" analyzed, had it spined (OEMs don't spine their shafts, do they), and assembled. Then while using it in the beer gut league, the Bang driver results were impressive. One guy wanted to play in my group every week so he could hit it. He wanted to get the same club, I wouldn't sell him mine. So I get him websites, part numbers, specs, every he needed to make the same club.

 

So two weeks later he shows up with a C*****y Di****o, right off the rack from GS. After hitting umpteen good drives, on the golf course, farther than he ever has with the Bang, he still went out bought the OEM club, just because OEMs make good clubs.

 

Except after three drives with the CD, he was back with Bang, and the CD is going to be a XMAS present. Finally, he ordered his Bang driver head last week.

 

I am very proud of my friend, he learned something.

[Justin66]

It's the little things- the spining, FLOing, MOI-matching, or any of the other "tweaks" that can be done that seperates the components from the OEMs. Like I've always said, OEMs aren't "bad", but they're mass-producing clubs for a general public to make shareholders happy. They may say a club or set of irons is swingweighted to D1, but as older tests from MGS have proven, that isn't always the case. With a custom clubfitter, that wouldn't happen.

[indacup]

It's the little things- the spining, FLOing, MOI-matching, or any of the other "tweaks" that can be done that seperates the components from the OEMs. Like I've always said, OEMs aren't "bad", but they're mass-producing clubs for a general public to make shareholders happy. They may say a club or set of irons is swingweighted to D1, but as older tests from MGS have proven, that isn't always the case. With a custom clubfitter, that wouldn't happen.

 

Very true, but theres even more basic services the OEMS cannot offer.

 

Some WILL offer (usually at added expense)different shaft options. Unfortunately, the shaft options are limited to only the one or two others they carry. Unlike a club fitter who can select the proper shaft from any shaft on the planet....they are not restrained by OEM inventory.

 

Secondly, many OEMS fool the public by pretending to offer the customer an upper end shaft, when in reality, those shafts are not the same as their true after-market/component items. But in reality, lesser quality version with same artwork, but often no where near the same performance.

[Justin66]

Very true, but theres even more basic services the OEMS cannot offer.

 

Some WILL offer (usually at added expense)different shaft options. Unfortunately, the shaft options are limited to only the one or two others they carry. Unlike a club fitter who can select the proper shaft from any shaft on the planet....they are not restrained by OEM inventory.

 

Secondly, many OEMS fool the public by pretending to offer the customer an upper end shaft, when in reality, those shafts are not the same as their true after-market/component items. But in reality, lesser quality version with same artwork, but often no where near the same performance.

 

 

True... usually the shafts options are only the ones the OEM has a deal with. I do kind of disagree with the "made for" shafts thing... they're good, but they definitely are different. They're designed to fit a broader audience- the flex might be a little softer than stated and/or the torque a little higher. But absolutely, if you wanted Brand X shaft, go to the clubfitter- that's a guarantee you won't get the "made for" version.

[indacup]

True... usually the shafts options are only the ones the OEM has a deal with. I do kind of disagree with the "made for" shafts thing... they're good, but they definitely are different. They're designed to fit a broader audience- the flex might be a little softer than stated and/or the torque a little higher. But absolutely, if you wanted Brand X shaft, go to the clubfitter- that's a guarantee you won't get the "made for" version.

I agree that the “made for” shaft versions are always softer than same stated flex for the actual component version.

 

But we have tested dozens if not a hundred or so of “made for” shafts from the OEMS and compared them directly to same stated flex of a component version, not only is flex softer and torque higher, but the overall quality in terms of shaft deflection is always worse in the “made for” versions.

 

I am sure Justin knows what I mean. But for those who want more explaination, lets say we measure a shaft and model from a component company…and we get a spefici CPM reading, now we rotate the shaft 90* and take another reading and the two readings differ by only a .001-.002 CPMS.

 

This is good, minimal deflection.

 

Now, we pull the SAME make and model from an OEM and do the same and the difference is .012CPMS.

 

That is unacceptable.

 

Enough that I found this disparity prevalent with many shaft companies and with one shaft company, the difference in quality was enormous…enough that I had a theory that the shaft company would run product…and any shafts that failed their Quality Control, would be separated from the approved shafts, and used exclusively for the OEMS.

 

Makes sense…now the OEMS get low performance, low quality shaft, with little investment, fool the public to think they're getting a new driver with a $200 shaft for $149, and the manufacturer does not have to worry about scrapping defective product and losing money. Instead they MAKE money off their rejects.

[cheymike]

Hmmm.... wasn't Nike was it? The shafts in my VR irons (graphite UST "made for", A Flex) tested pretty uniformly at my fitter's the other day. They were ALL FLIMSIER THAN A LADIES FLEX!! (An example, the 38" 5 iron was 262!!) These things could be used by small children.

And while I'm at it, I'll go ahead and mention... loft difference between 5 and 6 iron, 1.5*; difference between 6 and 7 iron 4.5*!!! They are suppose to be 3* each. Its almost impossible to tell the difference in shots with the 5 vs 6 irons, and too big of a yardage gap between the 6 vs 7. Guess what I'm getting myself before next season.... and I'm going to do it RIGHT this time and get them made for me by a guy I trust!

*edit* Also thought I'd mention, the cpms of the irons do NOT follow any kind of pattern to show that they are anywhere close to matched. Cpms for the different length clubs charted in an almost humorous zig zag around the chart.

[Super Tuna]

If it makes you feel any better Cheymike, I've found the same thing with my VR's (though I still like them better then the Edge's I have). To this end I've ended up juggling the clubs for now until I reshaft them. Ala I've taken the 4/5 iron out entirely. The 4 was replaced with a hybrid and the 5 just went as it was useless over the 6. Instead this has let me pick up a #5 wood which I've found very useful as my S2 #3 works terrible off the deck (amazing off the tee though).

 

More annoyingly though is that I found this out just after regripping them

[Justin66]

Hmmm.... wasn't Nike was it? The shafts in my VR irons (graphite UST "made for", A Flex) tested pretty uniformly at my fitter's the other day. They were ALL FLIMSIER THAN A LADIES FLEX!! (An example, the 38" 5 iron was 262!!) These things could be used by small children.

And while I'm at it, I'll go ahead and mention... loft difference between 5 and 6 iron, 1.5*; difference between 6 and 7 iron 4.5*!!! They are suppose to be 3* each. Its almost impossible to tell the difference in shots with the 5 vs 6 irons, and too big of a yardage gap between the 6 vs 7. Guess what I'm getting myself before next season.... and I'm going to do it RIGHT this time and get them made for me by a guy I trust!

*edit* Also thought I'd mention, the cpms of the irons do NOT follow any kind of pattern to show that they are anywhere close to matched. Cpms for the different length clubs charted in an almost humorous zig zag around the chart.

 

 

If it makes you feel any better Cheymike, I've found the same thing with my VR's (though I still like them better then the Edge's I have). To this end I've ended up juggling the clubs for now until I reshaft them. Ala I've taken the 4/5 iron out entirely. The 4 was replaced with a hybrid and the 5 just went as it was useless over the 6. Instead this has let me pick up a #5 wood which I've found very useful as my S2 #3 works terrible off the deck (amazing off the tee though).

 

More annoyingly though is that I found this out just after regripping them

 

 

I definitely get what Indacup's saying (though I wish he would've named names ), but what Mike and Wincey's experiencing with their clubheads are not very surprising. Every manufacturer has a tolerance. It doesn't matter if it's cars, soda, toothpaste, or anything else. Same goes with golf clubs. There's generally a +/- 2* tolerence for lofts and lie angles. Even weights for every component, from shafts to grips to heads to ferrules will have a tolerence. Case in point: I have a Rifle PX shaft, an FST Pro 115, Nippon 1030H and an Apollo Std. Stepless. All four shafts, in their raw state, were off from the manufacturer's stated weight. My Tacki-Mac Itomic grips that I started the year with, along with the Black Widow Tour Silk grips I'm ending the year with, all fluctuated in weight... with no two weighing exactly the same. That's "the rub of the green", though, when having humans make product: no one's perfect, no matter how diligent they are.

 

I also don't want to sound like I'm defending the OEMs... far from it. Another difference between an OEM and a component brand is, the component brand will tell you stuff like this. The OEMs won't. When you have your stuff built by a clubmaker, that's one of the first things they're going to check: to make sure everything's in spec, then adjusted accordingly (if need be). When you take your off-the-rack (and sometimes, even fitted by the big box store) stuff home with you and you notice you're hitting your 5 and 6 irons the same distance, there's a good chance the lofts are off. Honestly, though, this can happen in the middle of the golf year as well- even if you're taking care of your gear. Just like a car, it's a good idea to get your clubs "tuned up" every so often. Three months or 3,000 miles is preferable .

 

I can never resist a bad joke.