Planned 2030 Golf Ball Rollback

[fixyurdivot]

4 hours ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

Anyone else really curious how it could be effected when putting?

Jamie be like

[Golf2Much]

Today I participated in the year end Florida State Golf Association (USGA/GHIN) course raters meeting where we reviewed 2023 and looked forward to 2024.  When we got to Q&A, I asked "I know it's too early to tell for sure, is the USGA looking to make any course rating changes associated with the roll back golf ball?"  For those who may not be familiar with course rating and slope calculations, they are greatly influenced by the distances that both scratch and bogey golfers hit the ball, the resulting landing zones and the trouble associated in and around those landing zones. 

The staff member responded rather quickly that they have been told that the roll back golf balls will not influence the standard distances for full swing shot distances.  Using tee shots for example, the standard shot length (carry/roll/total in yards) are as follows:  Men scratch golfers:  230 carry, 20 roll and 250 total; men bogey golfer:  180 carry, 20 roll and 200 total; women scratch:  190 carry, 20 roll, 210 total and women bogey:  130 carry, 20 roll and 150 total.  

As prefaced the question, it's still early and who knows in the end what the implemented proposal (if any) will be.  However, for now, the course rating arm of USGA is not anticipating any changes in the rating distances for each demographic and skill level and therefore no impact on course ratings.  
 

[FrogginBullfish]

8 minutes ago, Golf2Much said:

Today I participated in the year end Florida State Golf Association (USGA/GHIN) course raters meeting where we reviewed 2023 and looked forward to 2024.  When we got to Q&A, I asked "I know it's too early to tell for sure, is the USGA looking to make any course rating changes associated with the roll back golf ball?"  For those who may not be familiar with course rating and slope calculations, they are greatly influenced by the distances that both scratch and bogey golfers hit the ball, the resulting landing zones and the trouble associated in and around those landing zones. 

The staff member responded rather quickly that they have been told that the roll back golf balls will not influence the standard distances for full swing shot distances.  Using tee shots for example, the standard shot length (carry/roll/total in yards) are as follows:  Men scratch golfers:  230 carry, 20 roll and 250 total; men bogey golfer:  180 carry, 20 roll and 200 total; women scratch:  190 carry, 20 roll, 210 total and women bogey:  130 carry, 20 roll and 150 total.  

As prefaced the question, it's still early and who knows in the end what the implemented proposal (if any) will be.  However, for now, the course rating arm of USGA is not anticipating any changes in the rating distances for each demographic and skill level and therefore no impact on course ratings.  
 

Was there any reasoning given that the ratings wouldn't change?

[Kenny B]

18 minutes ago, Golf2Much said:

Today I participated in the year end Florida State Golf Association (USGA/GHIN) course raters meeting where we reviewed 2023 and looked forward to 2024.  When we got to Q&A, I asked "I know it's too early to tell for sure, is the USGA looking to make any course rating changes associated with the roll back golf ball?"  For those who may not be familiar with course rating and slope calculations, they are greatly influenced by the distances that both scratch and bogey golfers hit the ball, the resulting landing zones and the trouble associated in and around those landing zones. 

The staff member responded rather quickly that they have been told that the roll back golf balls will not influence the standard distances for full swing shot distances.  Using tee shots for example, the standard shot length (carry/roll/total in yards) are as follows:  Men scratch golfers:  230 carry, 20 roll and 250 total; men bogey golfer:  180 carry, 20 roll and 200 total; women scratch:  190 carry, 20 roll, 210 total and women bogey:  130 carry, 20 roll and 150 total.  

As prefaced the question, it's still early and who knows in the end what the implemented proposal (if any) will be.  However, for now, the course rating arm of USGA is not anticipating any changes in the rating distances for each demographic and skill level and therefore no impact on course ratings.  
 

 

10 minutes ago, FrogginBullfish said:

Was there any reasoning given that the ratings wouldn't change?

My guess is that those distance criteria haven't changed is many years, even though ball and club technology has, so why change now.  The distance loss from the new ball probably makes the rating criteria the same as when they were established.

[Golf2Much]

6 minutes ago, FrogginBullfish said:

Was there any reasoning given that the ratings wouldn't change?

Because they have been told to expect no distance impact from the roll back golf balls for scratch and bogey golfers.   With no impact to distance, the landing areas stay the same and the existing course rating and slope do not change (assuming the course layout, most common tee box locations, etc. all stay the same).

[Hook DeLoft]

2 hours ago, fixyurdivot said:

Cannot answer your question Randy.  I gave up on Kirklands due to their higher than average spin.  All I can say is they can take my Velocity balls from my cold, dead hands .

Maybe for tour players, not for amateurs.  There is no distance problem at the amateur level, so there is no need to fix a problem that does not exist for 99% of the golfers around the world.  It simply makes no sense.

I'm going to climb out on a limb here and estimate that at least 80% of amateur golfers do not support a rollback of balls or clubs for their use.  Maybe the USGA needs a wake-up call in the form of a boycott.  

 

 

 

I was ok with bifurcation but the manufacturers and the Tour were vehemently against it and they have a lot more influence than the millions of recreational golfers out there.

 

[Golf2Much]

1 minute ago, Kenny B said:

 

My guess is that those distance criteria haven't changed is many years, even though ball and club technology has, so why change now.  The distance loss from the new ball probably makes the rating criteria the same as when they were established.

Good guess!  I've only been involved in rating golf courses for the last two years, so I can't say for sure if and when they made any changes to golfer's distances.  Your logic sounds about right!

[RickyBobby_PR]

39 minutes ago, Kenny B said:

 

My guess is that those distance criteria haven't changed is many years, even though ball and club technology has, so why change now.  The distance loss from the new ball probably makes the rating criteria the same as when they were established.

The didn’t change with the current equipment and distance gains so doubt they will make it for a rollback. 

37 minutes ago, Hook DeLoft said:

I was ok with bifurcation but the manufacturers and the Tour were vehemently against it and they have a lot more influence than the millions of recreational golfers out there.

 

The PGA of America is against bifurcation as well. 
 

If the ruling bodies go that route you will see a ton of lawsuits. I expect there to be plenty with a rollback.

 

[Kenny B]

48 minutes ago, Golf2Much said:

Good guess!  I've only been involved in rating golf courses for the last two years, so I can't say for sure if and when they made any changes to golfer's distances.  Your logic sounds about right!

I watched the rating team at 3 different courses in our area 10 years ago and the scratch and bogey criteria were the same.  I don't know when the criteria was initiated but I doubt they would have changed it once it was set.

[fixyurdivot]

1 hour ago, Golf2Much said:

Today I participated in the year end Florida State Golf Association (USGA/GHIN) course raters meeting where we reviewed 2023 and looked forward to 2024.  When we got to Q&A, I asked "I know it's too early to tell for sure, is the USGA looking to make any course rating changes associated with the roll back golf ball?"  For those who may not be familiar with course rating and slope calculations, they are greatly influenced by the distances that both scratch and bogey golfers hit the ball, the resulting landing zones and the trouble associated in and around those landing zones. 

The staff member responded rather quickly that they have been told that the roll back golf balls will not influence the standard distances for full swing shot distances.  Using tee shots for example, the standard shot length (carry/roll/total in yards) are as follows:  Men scratch golfers:  230 carry, 20 roll and 250 total; men bogey golfer:  180 carry, 20 roll and 200 total; women scratch:  190 carry, 20 roll, 210 total and women bogey:  130 carry, 20 roll and 150 total.  

As prefaced the question, it's still early and who knows in the end what the implemented proposal (if any) will be.  However, for now, the course rating arm of USGA is not anticipating any changes in the rating distances for each demographic and skill level and therefore no impact on course ratings.  
 

This absolutley makes no sense unless they are already certain that any rollback on ball technology will only effect swing speeds in excess of 99% of amateur players.  How would a State Golf Assn. know this for sure? Nothing personal, but I think you guys just got served the "talking points".  

Gotta love solutions in search of a problem .

[Subdiver1]

On 12/4/2023 at 6:41 PM, MattWillGolf said:

On 12/4/2023 at 6:35 PM, RickyBobby_PR said:

Yeah the ruling bodies have long shown they don’t care about the game and it’s all about optics of pro golf they don’t like and want to rule over. The tours and the PGA of America telling them to buzz off with the MLR I’m sure had their heads exploding in disbelief.

i expect PGA tour, DP World Tour and maybe even LIV along with several ball manufacturers to file lawsuits 

A previous study the USGA did for distance reduction showed that when there was an 8% reduction for high swing speeds it was a 7% for 80-90 swing speeds. 
 

We know that in a test of a ball using the proposed MLR specs it cost Keegan Bradley 30-40 yards. So with that it would be a significant decrease of potentially 20-30 yards for slower swing speeds. If we look at what the MLR wanted to achieve with the MLR of taking 350 yard drives to 335 for the elite males that puts 8-11 yards right into the range of distance loss for slower swing speeds.

 

Expand  

But for every club? Unless I’m misunderstanding their definition of every club. That’s where my confusion comes in

Man, losing 10-20% distance on our putters is REALLY going to cause some issues

Seriously though, the whole thing is just frickin' ridiculous. 

[Subdiver1]

5 hours ago, Golf2Much said:

Today I participated in the year end Florida State Golf Association (USGA/GHIN) course raters meeting where we reviewed 2023 and looked forward to 2024.  When we got to Q&A, I asked "I know it's too early to tell for sure, is the USGA looking to make any course rating changes associated with the roll back golf ball?"  For those who may not be familiar with course rating and slope calculations, they are greatly influenced by the distances that both scratch and bogey golfers hit the ball, the resulting landing zones and the trouble associated in and around those landing zones. 

The staff member responded rather quickly that they have been told that the roll back golf balls will not influence the standard distances for full swing shot distances.  Using tee shots for example, the standard shot length (carry/roll/total in yards) are as follows:  Men scratch golfers:  230 carry, 20 roll and 250 total; men bogey golfer:  180 carry, 20 roll and 200 total; women scratch:  190 carry, 20 roll, 210 total and women bogey:  130 carry, 20 roll and 150 total.  

As prefaced the question, it's still early and who knows in the end what the implemented proposal (if any) will be.  However, for now, the course rating arm of USGA is not anticipating any changes in the rating distances for each demographic and skill level and therefore no impact on course ratings.  
 

Interesting. Thanks for sharing that tidbit.

[Subdiver1]

17 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

He’s made the same claims on wrx before he was banned. The same rebuttals and data were given then and several other times on distance on this forum iirc. Along with several other subjects. Retief Goosen in a recent interview about the rollback stated the gains in recent times have come from guys working out and training more. And made the point that the only way to stop distance gains is to force golfers to not work out. 
 

The equipment rules we have today have been in use for decades and the top end of distance hasn’t increased. It’s the average distance which is where that 1.8 is sees. 

Copy all, thanks. The whole topic just seems . Most of us here are on the same page. The "ruling bodies" crack me up.

[ebaileymershon]

Golf is a game of skill, mental and physical, played in and on common elements. Skills are improved by practice and knowledge, not purchase. Handicaps were invented to level the playing field. The joy of golf is playing by the same rules. Have played this game for 60 years. It is a game, enjoy it! It is life. You control the outcome. 
 

Yes, I am old, do not play out of divots, rocks or tree stumps, nor keep a handicap, nor compete. Just between me and my golf gods. 

 

 

[GolfSpy_APH]

I am guessing this thread will be popping off today with the expected announcement. I am curious how they will twist it or if they will to give a positive spin to the masses. Will they have any data or hard facts which they can share or is it still in the proposal idea stage and more testing to be done later?

[Josh Parker]

4 minutes ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

I am guessing this thread will be popping off today with the expected announcement. I am curious how they will twist it or if they will to give a positive spin to the masses. Will they have any data or hard facts which they can share or is it still in the proposal idea stage and more testing to be done later?

Any answer will stir the pot regardless.  

I'm just going to continue to go out and play golf and enjoy the challenge.

[MattWillGolf]

7 hours ago, Subdiver1 said:

Man, losing 10-20% distance on our putters is REALLY going to cause some issues

Seriously though, the whole thing is just frickin' ridiculous. 

8-11 yards with every club.  What will that do for gimme putts?

[MattWillGolf]

1 hour ago, ebaileymershon said:

Golf is a game of skill, mental and physical, played in and on common elements. Skills are improved by practice and knowledge, not purchase. Handicaps were invented to level the playing field. The joy of golf is playing by the same rules. Have played this game for 60 years. It is a game, enjoy it! It is life. You control the outcome. 
 

Yes, I am old, do not play out of divots, rocks or tree stumps, nor keep a handicap, nor compete. Just between me and my golf gods. 

 

 

Your last paragraph fully captures my approach to the game. Well except the old part. Of course that may be denial

[Samuel09152]

11 minutes ago, MattWillGolf said:

8-11 yards with every club.  What will that do for gimme putts?

I hope so, that would be pretty awesome and I could do use this idea

Edited December 6, 2023 by Samuel09152

[RickyBobby_PR]

45 minutes ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

I am guessing this thread will be popping off today with the expected announcement. I am curious how they will twist it or if they will to give a positive spin to the masses. Will they have any data or hard facts which they can share or is it still in the proposal idea stage and more testing to be done later?

Based on social media comments from Breed, Sasho Mackenzie and I’ve seen a snippet of something Snell put out, it doesn’t sound like they don’t have a lot of data or testing.

Unless they have been working in the background with Bridgestone who was the only company I’m aware of that in recent times said they would make a rollback ball, I doubt they have any data to support their claims. The information they use to promote the narrative of distance being a problem and the ball going to far is cherry picked. And the information in the podcast with Sasho pretty much blows up their whole story.

They are down to two options. Bifurcation or rollback for all. Neither are good and bifurcation. Is the worse of the two.

If they go the bifurcation route I can see the end of the two ruling bodies as we know them 

[GolfSpy_APH]

2 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Based on social media comments from Breed, Sasho Mackenzie and I’ve seen a snippet of something Snell put out, it doesn’t sound like they don’t have a lot of data or testing.

Unless they have been working in the background with Bridgestone who was the only company I’m aware of that in recent times said they would make a rollback ball, I doubt they have any data to support their claims. The information they use to promote the narrative of distance being a problem and the ball going to far is cherry picked. And the information in the podcast with Sasho pretty much blows up their whole story.

They are down to two options. Bifurcation or rollback for all. Neither are good and bifurcation. Is the worse of the two.

If they go the bifurcation route I can see the end of the two ruling bodies as we know them 

Guess we will find out soon enough!

I still have no issues with bifurcations at all. That route is something that doesn't bother me in the slightest. 

[Samuel09152]

47 minutes ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

I am guessing this thread will be popping off today with the expected announcement. I am curious how they will twist it or if they will to give a positive spin to the masses. Will they have any data or hard facts which they can share or is it still in the proposal idea stage and more testing to be done later?

If they are being honest with themselves, this is not positive spin. I understand the idea behind this but struggle with the idea of this being the best innovation (de-innovation if that is a word) of the game. To me the 1% of the players is who this is for. I think I read the average PGA tour drives 280, but the USGA makes it should like it’s everyone. This may not affect Rory as much, but what about guys like Kisner? He was already short of the tee compared to most everyone, or Joel even. I think it also hurts them, not just us average Joe. Also what happen if someone has a new technique that comes out that begins to allow players to hit 300 again? Idk what the innovation could be but there has to be a better way. 
 

also would like to add, I’m a mid to high handicapper so not sure if it will affect me as much as others I play with. Just kinda sucks that the people who put the time and effort into becoming great at a principle are being punished because they got to good. Only if that worked in cyber…. 

[GolfSpy_APH]

1 minute ago, Samuel09152 said:

If they are being honest with themselves, this is not positive spin. I understand the idea behind this but struggle with the idea of this being the best innovation (de-innovation if that is a word) of the game. To me the 1% of the players is who this is for. I think I read the average PGA tour drives 280, but the USGA makes it should like it’s everyone. This may not affect Rory as much, but what about guys like Kisner? He was already short of the tee compared to most everyone, or Joel even. I think it also hurts them, not just us average Joe. Also what happen if someone has a new technique that comes out that begins to allow players to hit 300 again? Idk what the innovation could be but there has to be a better way. 
 

also would like to add, I’m a mid to high handicapper so not sure if it will affect me as much as others I play with. Just kinda sucks that the people who put the time and effort into becoming great at a principle are being punished because they got to good. Only if that worked in cyber…. 

It certainly could have a knock on effect for many. I still keep in my mind this is years and years out from being implemented and the longest drivers of the golf ball are still going to be just that. Changing the ball isn't going to narrow that gap for the shorter guys and for tour purposes if it helps fair enough. I am all good with a Tour ball, it is more the knock on effect to us mortals that I find it hard to justify. 

Flip side I understand why it makes sense for the companies. They make a lot more money if everyone has to change. Also who knows in the leaked proposal there will be 2 years of pros playing one and amateurs playing another. What is there to say that in those 2 years everyone against bifurcation gets over it and says we don't actually care that much and it stays that way. 

Long game there is just way too much unknown for myself to get super worked up over this no matter how the spin it. I don't like it, but it also won't keep me from wanting to golf. 

[Samuel09152]

8 minutes ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

Flip side I understand why it makes sense for the companies. They make a lot more money if everyone has to change. Also who knows in the leaked proposal there will be 2 years of pros playing one and amateurs playing another. What is there to say that in those 2 years everyone against bifurcation gets over it and says we don't actually care that much and it stays that 

Those are very good point and very true. Open mind is what everyone will have to have, and wait to see how it really affects us. 
 

I didn’t even think about the part above (in school for MBA but have a very technical mind still as I work on computers). This makes the most sense and why companies should embrace the change. Yes more product but yes more profit potential. We have seen this a lot in other sports, what is sold to the consumer is not the same as to the athletes /pros and in my honest opinion it shouldn’t be. 
 

for now open mind is needed as you stated, and I will still look forward to what golf brings me going forward  

[RickyBobby_PR]

23 minutes ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

Guess we will find out soon enough!

I still have no issues with bifurcations at all. That route is something that doesn't bother me in the slightest. 

It’s the worse thing for golf and the majority of people don’t want it. Tiger and Rory are the only tour players I’ve seen pushing for it. 
 

The tours don’t want it, OEMs don’t want it, PGA of America don’t want it and most of the majority of the golfing public don’t want it. Golf is the only sport that ams and pros can play in the same event using the same equipment and with handicaps have an equal chance of competing. 
 

Theres no legitimate reason for it. And the talk of rolling back balls or equipment is nothing but a way to punish player at all levels that worked hard, trained hard and developed a skill to 1) hit the ball farther than others and have the ability to get the ball in the hole quicker than others. Goof is the only sport where its fans and the ruling bodies are looking to punish hardwork and not reward it.

And an argument about pros not using the same equipment that amateurs use is just as weak as the distance one. They play the same specs as the equipment at retail. Not every pro has their own prototype driver, prototype ball, prototype wedge or iron set. But again those are still meeting the specs we play. How many people bought the RF blades? Not many. Tigers wedges sold out because they were limited edition and it’s TW.

Only guys who were crazy and wanted to try Tigers iron specs bought the TW iron sets. Most people in golf don’t know or care about the specs the pros play. They see the brand on tv and buy that. 

[fixyurdivot]

1 hour ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

I am guessing this thread will be popping off today with the expected announcement. I am curious how they will twist it or if they will to give a positive spin to the masses. Will they have any data or hard facts which they can share or is it still in the proposal idea stage and more testing to be done later?

You're also on the USGA distance committee?  I just knew there was more than one of you .

33 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Based on social media comments from Breed, Sasho Mackenzie and I’ve seen a snippet of something Snell put out, it doesn’t sound like they don’t have a lot of data or testing.

Unless they have been working in the background with Bridgestone who was the only company I’m aware of that in recent times said they would make a rollback ball, I doubt they have any data to support their claims. The information they use to promote the narrative of distance being a problem and the ball going to far is cherry picked. And the information in the podcast with Sasho pretty much blows up their whole story.

They are down to two options. Bifurcation or rollback for all. Neither are good and bifurcation. Is the worse of the two.

If they go the bifurcation route I can see the end of the two ruling bodies as we know them 

Wait a minute... hold the presses... the Titleist White Ball tests were consistently short in length off the tee .

Agree that neither a rollback or bifurcation is good (needed for that matter), but I'd favor bifurcation.  Make the pros play whatever they decide, to address their issue, and leave us amateurs alone. 

[RickyBobby_PR]

33 minutes ago, Samuel09152 said:

This may not affect Rory as much, but what about guys like Kisner? He was already short of the tee compared to most everyone, or Joel even. I think it also hurts them, not just us average Joe. Also what happen if someone has a new technique that comes out that begins to allow players to hit 300 again? Idk what the innovation could be but there has to be a better way. 

This is exclusive what’s going to happen. Rory’s own words say it will benefit the longer golfer and that he wants the rollback for selfish purposes. When the ball gets shorter it’s the equivalent of lengthening the course. Broadie published a piece about this and that the longer course(shorter ball) from strokes gained benefits the longer player. So what happens is that distance becomes even more of an advantage so more people work harder at getting longer. The ones that are successful at it will stay on the tour and the ones who don’t will slowly find themselves out of a job. Then you have everyone hitting the same distance and still in the 300+ driving distance that the ruling bodies want to get rid of. As Sasho Mackenzie pointed out the players have speed an distance in the tank and they will be back at their current distances easily.  The other thing it doesn’t do is create that one standout golfer who is different than everyone else, longer than everyone else ala Jack and Tiger. It does the opposite because everyone is long and when everyone is long nobody is long
 

This is the ruling bodies dictating how golf should be played in their eyes. It’s another one of their power grabs to show the pros and tours who is in charge 

[RickyBobby_PR]

1 minute ago, fixyurdivot said:

Agree that neither a rollback or bifurcation is good (needed for that matter), but I'd favor bifurcation.  Make the pros play whatever they decide, to address their issue, and leave us amateurs alone. 

There no issue. The ruling bodies don’t like the pro game and that since Tiger came on scene we have seen better athletes arrive on tour and thru launch monitors, 3d swing videos, the current equipment more people are hitting it 300 yards. They only want a couple people do that that. Many ignore that the pga tour sets up their courses to create more distance and lower scores. The ruling bodies don’t like that either. Professional golf is an entertainment product. The entertainment comes from long drives and low scores.

Going to leave this here from Mr Snell

[Josh Parker]

8 minutes ago, fixyurdivot said:

 

Wait a minute... hold the presses... the Titleist White Ball tests were consistently short in length off the tee .

It was about a club length shorter...

[GolfSpy_APH]

https://mygolfspy.com/news-opinion/so-the-usga-wants-a-golf-ball-rollback-now-what/

full mgs article up