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Planned 2030 Golf Ball Rollback


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584 members have voted

  1. 1. Are you in favor of the rollback?

    • Yes
      81
    • No
      400
    • Don't Care
      103
  2. 2. Do you watch or care about the PGA Tour and other professional Tours?

    • Yes
      529
    • No
      21
    • Don't Care
      34
  3. 3. Do you wish there was a Tour Only golf ball?

    • Yes
      200
    • No
      237
    • Don't Care
      147
  4. 4. Do you want to play all the same equipment like the pros play?

    • Yes
      215
    • No
      143
    • Don't Care
      226
  5. 5. Do you feel your game will be dramatically effected by the rollback in 2030?

    • Yes
      230
    • No
      240
    • Don't know
      114
  6. 6. Will loosing any distance take away significant enjoyment in golfing for you?

    • Yes
      300
    • No
      158
    • Probably not
      126
  7. 7. Would you quit golf because of the rollback?

    • Yes
      25
    • No
      559
  8. 8. Would you prefer bifurcation?

    • Yes
      268
    • No
      202
    • Don't Care
      114
  9. 9. Is this all too early and we need to wait and see what more will happen over the next few years?

    • Definitely
      261
    • No, this needs to be addressed now
      262
    • Don't care
      61

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50 minutes ago, cnosil said:

Read this on Twitter/X; it was a post from Michael Breed and I personally cannot confirm that it is accurate since I haven't seen any of the data:

 

He’s not that far from their Massachusetts location and is “sponsored” by them. I wouldnt Be surprised if titleist tested all their balls new and old to see if any of them and that with his close relationship with the brand he got the scoop

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1 hour ago, cnosil said:

Read this on Twitter/X; it was a post from Michael Breed and I personally cannot confirm that it is accurate since I haven't seen any of the data:

 

non issue for me, 25 MPH faster than my club head speed.

committed to performance excellence

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I have been reading and listening to more on this proposed change and the more I learn, the less it concerns me. Today on the Fried Egg Podcast they brought up changes as it relates to swing speed and one’s ability to compress the ball which I had not heard so clearly described previously. The distance impact on average golfers does not on the surface appear to be as severe as some are saying. MGS was stating numbers like 8-11 yards on every shot which I struggle to believe. Is that just clickbait on their part? By the time the rule change impacts amateurs, it will be 2030. Personally,  I will be in my late 60s at that point. I’m not sure I’d notice a great deal of difference vs. the impact of the undefeated Father Time.

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15 minutes ago, MattWillGolf said:

I have been reading and listening to more on this proposed change and the more I learn, the less it concerns me. Today on the Fried Egg Podcast they brought up changes as it relates to swing speed and one’s ability to compress the ball which I had not heard so clearly described previously. The distance impact on average golfers does not on the surface appear to be as severe as some are saying. MGS was stating numbers like 8-11 yards on every shot which I struggle to believe. Is that just clickbait on their part? By the time the rule change impacts amateurs, it will be 2030. Personally,  I will be in my late 60s at that point. I’m not sure I’d notice a great deal of difference vs. the impact of the undefeated Father Time.

It’s not clickbait. There will be distance loss for all. If It’s 5% for the faster swingers it will be 3-5% for the 80-90mph swinger. That’s across each club. 

High speed cameras show that even slow swingers can compress a 5 layer ball

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52 minutes ago, Jim Shaw said:

non issue for me, 25 MPH faster than my club head speed.

Why isn't it an issue for you?  The 125 MPH swing speed is they speed that is used to test conformance.  Basically what the post is saying is that a ball from 1995 won't pass the conformance test. 

Current test is done at 120MPH.   You can read the protocol here:  https://golfweek.usatoday.com/lists/how-does-usga-ra-test-golf-balls-rollback/

  

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This is so easily resolved - just don’t do it - 

Here’s a chance for the tours to stand up for us - simply say - we aren’t doing it. 

Driver: Taylor Made Stealth 2 10.5 Diamana S plus 60  R flex   - 44.25 

Fairways:  Ping G410 5, 7, 9 wood  Alta CB red 65 R flex

Hybrid:  Ping G410  26 degree  Alta CB Red 70 R flex 

Irons: Ping G430  7-PW, 45, 50 Alta CB black 65 soft R flex 

Wedges:  Ping 195 S54, E58

Wedges and irons are - 1/2” and one degree flat 

Putter: Sacks Parente Duke 32.5”

Ball: Titleist Pro VI or Callaway Chrome Soft X ls

 

While not at the same time I was fit for every club in my bag as well as the Pro VI ball. I use the chrome soft x ls on my league course.  It has much softer softer greens than the club that I belong to. 

I’m on a mission to shoot my age - lifetime lowest round is 66 and I’m currently 67. 

 

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45 minutes ago, MattWillGolf said:

I have been reading and listening to more on this proposed change and the more I learn, the less it concerns me. Today on the Fried Egg Podcast they brought up changes as it relates to swing speed and one’s ability to compress the ball which I had not heard so clearly described previously. The distance impact on average golfers does not on the surface appear to be as severe as some are saying. MGS was stating numbers like 8-11 yards on every shot which I struggle to believe. Is that just clickbait on their part? By the time the rule change impacts amateurs, it will be 2030. Personally,  I will be in my late 60s at that point. I’m not sure I’d notice a great deal of difference vs. the impact of the undefeated Father Time.

Not sure about your first question, but I was thinking the very same thing about your last point... time is kinda on our side 😆.  Plus, I think most amateurs are going to give the USGA and R&A the "you are #1" salute and play the non-neutered balls. 

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6 minutes ago, revkev said:

This is so easily resolved - just don’t do it - 

Here’s a chance for the tours to stand up for us - simply say - we aren’t doing it. 

Would be nice but I don’t think they are ready to take on managing their own rules. But imagine if they did and got grint to be the handicap system. Would make for an interesting time in golf

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3 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Would be nice but I don’t think they are ready to take on managing their own rules. But imagine if they did and got grint to be the handicap system. Would make for an interesting time in golf

As if it hasn’t been interesting enough. 😎

I really don’t care what they do. They clearly don’t care about me or the opinion of people like me or anyone else whose opinion differs from theirs. They will do as they please and I will do as I please in regards to playing golf. I’ve had fun playing competitive golf by USGA rules and I’ve had fun playing with friends with our own set of crazy, modified rules like strings, call backs, mulligans and such. I will just resort to playing goofy golf - I will be in my 70’s by the time this takes effect, my competitive USGA days are over. I feel bad for guys in their 40’s and 50’s who still like to play by the rules - it’s kind of late in the game to adjust to this radical a change. 
 

But let’s see exactly what it is and the reaction of the tours and OEMs. Lots may happen yet. 

Driver: Taylor Made Stealth 2 10.5 Diamana S plus 60  R flex   - 44.25 

Fairways:  Ping G410 5, 7, 9 wood  Alta CB red 65 R flex

Hybrid:  Ping G410  26 degree  Alta CB Red 70 R flex 

Irons: Ping G430  7-PW, 45, 50 Alta CB black 65 soft R flex 

Wedges:  Ping 195 S54, E58

Wedges and irons are - 1/2” and one degree flat 

Putter: Sacks Parente Duke 32.5”

Ball: Titleist Pro VI or Callaway Chrome Soft X ls

 

While not at the same time I was fit for every club in my bag as well as the Pro VI ball. I use the chrome soft x ls on my league course.  It has much softer softer greens than the club that I belong to. 

I’m on a mission to shoot my age - lifetime lowest round is 66 and I’m currently 67. 

 

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20 minutes ago, cnosil said:

Why isn't it an issue for you?  The 125 MPH swing speed is they speed that is used to test conformance.  Basically what the post is saying is that a ball from 1995 won't pass the conformance test. 

Current test is done at 120MPH.   You can read the protocol here:  https://golfweek.usatoday.com/lists/how-does-usga-ra-test-golf-balls-rollback/

  

no issue as my club head speed is 100

committed to performance excellence

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8 hours ago, chisag said:

 

... That of course is already happening. But I think you might be underestimating capitalism and greed. Bottom line: if they can make more 🤑 still producing an illegal ball, they will. If it is cost prohibitive they won't. 

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Maybe it will be different this time given that it has been nearly a century since the last ball rollback, but historically non-conforming equipment has not sold well. If there was a large demand for non-conforming equipment, don’t you think there would be a lot more options that exceed the current ball limits? (I mean, can you even name a multilayer urethane ball that doesn’t conform to the current ODS?).

The groove rule is another example that we can look to. The big OEMs complied by producing only to the new spec starting in 2010 even though the prior spec was still valid for most amateurs for at least 14 years. Now that the USGA blew by the final notice deadline without acknowledging, we are now at 18 years to never for full implementation of the groove rollback, yet the OEMs have shown no indication of changing course. 

IMHO, this will all be up to the PGA Tour/PGA of America. If they announce their intent on continuing to comply with the ROG, the OEMs will fall in line because this will be an opportunity for everyone except Acushnet. If they refuse and threaten to break off to their own set of rules, either the USGA/R&A maintain the status quo or push forward and risk the game descending into chaos. 

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12 minutes ago, storm319 said:

Maybe it will be different this time given that it has been nearly a century since the last ball rollback, but historically non-conforming equipment has not sold well. If there was a large demand for non-conforming equipment, don’t you think there would be a lot more options that exceed the current ball limits? (I mean, can you even name a multilayer urethane ball that doesn’t conform to the current ODS?).

The groove rule is another example that we can look to. The big OEMs complied by producing only to the new spec starting in 2010 even though the prior spec was still valid for most amateurs for at least 14 years. Now that the USGA blew by the final notice deadline without acknowledging, we are now at 18 years to never for full implementation of the groove rollback, yet the OEMs have shown no indication of changing course. 

IMHO, this will all be up to the PGA Tour/PGA of America. If they announce their intent on continuing to comply with the ROG, the OEMs will fall in line because this will be an opportunity for everyone except Acushnet. If they refuse and threaten to break off to their own set of rules, either the USGA/R&A maintain the status quo or push forward and risk the game descending into chaos. 

1/2 century since the last ball rollback eh? wow... I can remember when "the powers that be" decided to make a one size ball roll, got rid of the smaller European ball, I can't remember why they did that. 

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1 hour ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

It’s not clickbait. There will be distance loss for all. If It’s 5% for the faster swingers it will be 3-5% for the 80-90mph swinger. That’s across each club. 

High speed cameras show that even slow swingers can compress a 5 layer ball

I’m not saying there won’t be an impact on slower swing speeds but I think the 8-11 yards for each club is overstated even for average golfers.

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8 minutes ago, Jim Shaw said:

1/2 century since the last ball rollback eh? wow... I can remember when "the powers that be" decided to make a one size ball roll, got rid of the smaller European ball, I can't remember why they did that. 

I forgot about the smaller ball. No Laying Up did a great interview recently with Lee Trevino. He talked about using a smaller ball back in the day to keep up with the longer hitters of the day. 

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51 minutes ago, Jim Shaw said:

no issue as my club head speed is 100

Not sure what you mean by no issue.  I don't recall all your responses in this thread but I am assuming you are for the rollback.  I know you said it comes after you will stop playing competitive golf.  But stating your club speed doesn't make sense when talking about the ball testing protocols.  

The below video indicates at 112 MPH there was a 20 yard difference between a prov1 and the professional 90.  Neither of those balls would meet the new rules.   So at 100MPH you are looking at maybe a 20 yard loss in distance with a ball that meets the new rules.    

 

Edited by cnosil

Driver:  :ping-small: G400 Max 9* w/ KBS Tour Driven
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                :titelist-small: 915H  24*  w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype        
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The manufactures need to make a stand and just keep selling the balls they make now!

Maybe Snell or Vice or both will just say, "If you want to keep playing the balls like you play now we are here for you."  They would rocket to the top of ball sales!  

I am going to buy enough balls to play for the rest of my life and they can just kick rocks!  I play this game for fun and rolling back distance in my senior years is like lining up to get kicked in the nuts for fun! 

Hello, if they roll back the ball 20% they effectively making the courses a tee box longer for everyone.  So what happened to Tee it Forward?  This will cause 5 1/2 hour rounds and that will cause lot's of golfers to quit and move to Pickleball!  I can't run and play the sports of my youth.  Golf is all I have left, they can't stand their success they are going to destroy the game with this idiousy.  

I am sick of these rules guys.  I just had my old square grooved KZG irons refinished and regrooved and at my age I never plan to enter a USGA event so their opinion no longer matters.  I will play divots as ground under repair and OB and all hazards as lateral with a single stroke penalty.  I won't carry a handicap and will provide my average score to anyone that need to know really I think it is a far more honest way to represent playing ablity.

I can afford to buy and play the gear I like and will from now on!!!

The USDA and R&A have lost their way and need to be reset. 🤮

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Fairways: Callaway Rogue 15* & 19* Matrix Ozik TP 6 HD stiff  &

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54 minutes ago, revkev said:

As if it hasn’t been interesting enough. 😎

I really don’t care what they do. They clearly don’t care about me or the opinion of people like me or anyone else whose opinion differs from theirs. They will do as they please and I will do as I please in regards to playing golf. I’ve had fun playing competitive golf by USGA rules and I’ve had fun playing with friends with our own set of crazy, modified rules like strings, call backs, mulligans and such. I will just resort to playing goofy golf - I will be in my 70’s by the time this takes effect, my competitive USGA days are over. I feel bad for guys in their 40’s and 50’s who still like to play by the rules - it’s kind of late in the game to adjust to this radical a change. 
 

But let’s see exactly what it is and the reaction of the tours and OEMs. Lots may happen yet. 

Yeah the ruling bodies have long shown they don’t care about the game and it’s all about optics of pro golf they don’t like and want to rule over. The tours and the PGA of America telling them to buzz off with the MLR I’m sure had their heads exploding in disbelief.

i expect PGA tour, DP World Tour and maybe even LIV along with several ball manufacturers to file lawsuits 

17 minutes ago, MattWillGolf said:

I’m not saying there won’t be an impact on slower swing speeds but I think the 8-11 yards for each club is overstated even for average golfers.

A previous study the USGA did for distance reduction showed that when there was an 8% reduction for high swing speeds it was a 7% for 80-90 swing speeds. 
 

We know that in a test of a ball using the proposed MLR specs it cost Keegan Bradley 30-40 yards. So with that it would be a significant decrease of potentially 20-30 yards for slower swing speeds. If we look at what the MLR wanted to achieve with the MLR of taking 350 yard drives to 335 for the elite males that puts 8-11 yards right into the range of distance loss for slower swing speeds.

 

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2 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Yeah the ruling bodies have long shown they don’t care about the game and it’s all about optics of pro golf they don’t like and want to rule over. The tours and the PGA of America telling them to buzz off with the MLR I’m sure had their heads exploding in disbelief.

i expect PGA tour, DP World Tour and maybe even LIV along with several ball manufacturers to file lawsuits 

A previous study the USGA did for distance reduction showed that when there was an 8% reduction for high swing speeds it was a 7% for 80-90 swing speeds. 
 

We know that in a test of a ball using the proposed MLR specs it cost Keegan Bradley 30-40 yards. So with that it would be a significant decrease of potentially 20-30 yards for slower swing speeds. If we look at what the MLR wanted to achieve with the MLR of taking 350 yard drives to 335 for the elite males that puts 8-11 yards right into the range of distance loss for slower swing speeds.

 

But for every club? Unless I’m misunderstanding their definition of every club. That’s where my confusion comes in.

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Personally I am looking forward to watching professional golfers hit longer irons and have bunkers & trees come back into play on courses with rich history that have been outgrown for years. As for myself, I really don't mind moving up a tee or grabbing an extra club. As someone else mentioned, there was a move from the small ball to the bigger one and now no one talks about it. Do I think rolling back the ball is the best way to achieve what the USGA & R&A want? No. If that's what they decide? Oh well, lets hope for the best.

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2 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

It’s not clickbait. There will be distance loss for all. If It’s 5% for the faster swingers it will be 3-5% for the 80-90mph swinger. That’s across each club. 

High speed cameras show that even slow swingers can compress a 5 layer ball

What are you basing this on? It doesn’t seem intuitive that the effect would be exactly proportional at different compressions. 

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8 hours ago, chisag said:

 

... They have said while it may not be a serious problem at this moment, it is certainly going to be at some point. It was gonna happen sooner or later and they chose now to draw the line in the sand for the future. I don't see how this is different than when they "rolled back" the distance on a drivers cor and made illegal those that produced too much speed. Whether or not anyone agrees with their stance, and certainly the average golfer may not, I do think they are truly attempting to protect the game as a whole. 

When the USGA set the initial COR limit in 1998, it was set slightly above the Ping TISI which prompted the limit. Any drivers that were deemed illegal was after that initial limit was announced so those don’t count as a rollback. The main reason that some OEMs chose to exceed this limit was due to the R&As resistance to aligning with the USGAs initial limit for which the USGA floated the idea of adopting a higher .860 limit which never came to fruition. Basically there has never been a COR rollback, just a limit that hasn’t been reached which I think most would be ok with.

Driver:  Titleist TS2 9.5

Fairway:  Tour Edge CB4 Tour 16.5 

Irons:  Titleist 690.CB 3-PW

Wedges:  Titleist Vokey SM5 50, 56

Putter:  Odyssey Works Versa 1W

Ball:  Vice Pro Plus

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7 hours ago, pdr747 said:

Also….  Why wouldn’t Titleist keep making their current ball for those of you who will have to quit (as some are claiming) with the rolled back ball.  If there is a market then people will buy. 
 

Self-bifuricate if you will be so harmed by the new rule.  Heck most people don’t play by the rules anyways.  
 

Maybe there should be a thread to make people aware that mulligans are against the rules. 

Potentially for the same reason why Titleist doesn’t make Vokeys with grooves that exceed the post-2010 spec but still conform to the pre-2010 spec. Historically, non-conforming equipment has not sold well.

Driver:  Titleist TS2 9.5

Fairway:  Tour Edge CB4 Tour 16.5 

Irons:  Titleist 690.CB 3-PW

Wedges:  Titleist Vokey SM5 50, 56

Putter:  Odyssey Works Versa 1W

Ball:  Vice Pro Plus

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6 hours ago, jak29672 said:

For those who are worried about bifurcation, think again.  It all ready exists. Do you think the pros are playing the same Prov1 that you buy in the store?

All of those tour issue balls are subject to the same regulations as what is sold at retail, so no that is not bifurcation.

Edited by storm319

Driver:  Titleist TS2 9.5

Fairway:  Tour Edge CB4 Tour 16.5 

Irons:  Titleist 690.CB 3-PW

Wedges:  Titleist Vokey SM5 50, 56

Putter:  Odyssey Works Versa 1W

Ball:  Vice Pro Plus

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2 hours ago, Jim Shaw said:

1/2 century since the last ball rollback eh? wow... I can remember when "the powers that be" decided to make a one size ball roll, got rid of the smaller European ball, I can't remember why they did that. 

The USGA rolled back the ball in the 1930s by lowering the max weight and increasing the minimum diameter but the R&A chose to stick with the status quo at the time. This was so unpopular that the USGA reversed course a few years later on the weight max but retained the larger diameter. The R&A finally aligned with the USGA on this item in the 1970s for their championships and globally starting in 1990 which began the only period in history with a global unified set of rules (until the USGA screwed that up with the groove rollback).

Driver:  Titleist TS2 9.5

Fairway:  Tour Edge CB4 Tour 16.5 

Irons:  Titleist 690.CB 3-PW

Wedges:  Titleist Vokey SM5 50, 56

Putter:  Odyssey Works Versa 1W

Ball:  Vice Pro Plus

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On 12/5/2023 at 7:42 AM, Subdiver1 said:

Stop already with the modern ball stuff.  There are MANY more factors out there driving increases in distance (pun intended).  Let's look at DATA.

While he now advocates a ball change, Jack Nicklaus averaged and ranked 10th in 1980 with 269 yards off the tee and between 264 and 269 from 1980-1985 (https://www.statmuse.com/pga/ask/jack-niklaus-driving-average-by-year).  Davis Love III (https://www.statmuse.com/pga/ask/davis-love-iii-driving-distance-by-year) continued to play a persimmon drive through 1997 and averaged between 270 - 285 yards per season; between 1998 - 2010, after switching to modern equipment he averaged between 285 - 305 yards; we see a jump in his driving distance of >10 yards occur in 2001 BEFORE the "Advancements in Ball Innovation" highlighted on the chart below, and then again in 2003, which corresponds with the almost 10 yard jump in average Tour Player distance.  Is this because he had advance access to ball innovation? Or are there other factors since he already saw an increase prior to the shift?  Regardless, the USGA and R&As own chart marks 2002 as "The beginning of the end for wound balls" yet in 2001 he was hitting a wound ball >297 yards, on average.  While still playing a persimmon driver and wound balls he was able to AVERAGE >285 yards.  Between 1999 and 2012 John Daly routinely averaged OVER 300 yards.  He was the first player to break the 300 yard average driving distance barrier, IN 1997.  From 2000-2003 (while still using wound golf balls) he averaged OVER 300 yards; in 2003, 2005 and 2007 he exceeded 310 yards on average (https://swingcrafters.com/golf-swing-speed/).

The Longest Recorded PGA Tour Drive occurred on September 25, 1974 during the U.S. National Seniors Open Championship at Desert Rose Resort, Las Vegas. 64-year old Mike Austin drove the ball on a 450 yard par-4 using a steel-shafted, 43.5-inch persimmon driver and balata ball.  Potential 35 MPH tail wind and 2,000 ft altitude are considered factors, but the result has not been repeated on tour with modern equipment.  The closest anyone has come to reaching Mike Austin's record distance during a PGA Tour event was Davis Love III's 476-yard drive at the 2004 Mercedes Championship (https://www.golflink.com/tour-golf/hit-longest-golf-drive-ever).

According to the PGAs own data (https://digital-disp02-pd.usga.org/content/dam/usga/pdf/2023/2022-ADDR-Distance-Report-Final.pdf, pg 4/32) the biggest leap in distance off the tee occurred between 1994 - 2004; just under 30 yards in those 10-years (or ~3 yards/year); between 2004 and 2022 (18 years) the upward increase has been under 10 yards (~1.8 yards/year increase).  Between 1980 and 1994 driving distance increased approximately 10 yards (<1 yard/year).  All of this shows an overall gradual increase that mirrors other gains in other sports.  In addition to this, the period of ball innovation shows an initial jump of <10 yards then relative stability over the next 4 years and continuing stability of ~1 yard of increase during the "Stability thru Regulation" period highlighted.  But wait!  There's more!

ScreenShot2023-12-04at7_49_40PM.png.e8c93bf0e93d3e69f8a15105a58c8bc8.png

In March 2022 the USGA and R&A released "a wide-ranging and detailed look at distance in the game of golf" providing a picture of how amateur performance has  changed over the years (https://golf.com/instruction/driving/driving-distance-average-golfers-new-report/).  The report shows that, despite access to the same (or very similar) equipment and fitting that the Pros have access to driving distance has stayed pretty stable:

ScreenShot2023-12-04at7_42_49PM.png.6a1adfd6009a62160b6e7a5990cf8fd6.png

You CANNOT authoritatively claim that the "modern ball" is the force behind the distance increase with the presented Amateur data and the Pro distance data CANNOT be looked at in isolation from the Amateur data if we truly wish to make an objective case.  The two results either correlate and corroborate the data, or they do not.  in this case, they do NOT.  The stability of Amateur driving distance with our access to the same advances in equipment as the Pros absolutely refutes the idea that The Ball, in isolation from other factors, was A. the reason DJ was able to hit a ball 300 yards with a persimmon driver; or B. that the average driving distance on Tour has increased over the years.  There are a myriad of other factors at play including equipment, sport specific training, dedicated training and recuperation time and methods, resulting physical development etc.  But hang on for a minute, there is more...  

"IBM collected distance information at 11 of 34 official events in 1967 -- a number it deemed statistically relevant --- and found that the top-10 players in distance drove it an average of 270.2 yards. That was 6.2 yards longer (2.3 percent) than the tour average. Nicklaus, at 276 yards, was 4.5 percent longer than the average (https://www.golfdigest.com/story/jack-actually-the-distance-adv)."  So, in 1980, using persimmon heads and wound balls, before personal trainers, cross-fit, dedicated and personalized training regimens etc. were the norm, Pros were averaging 270 yards.  30 yards = ~ 12 MPH in swing/club head speed.  Well, let's look at THAT.  

Measured swing speed increase 3 MPH from 2007 to 2023; that leaves from 1980 to 2007 (27 years of evolution) to develop 9 MPH. While I haven't been able to find 1980 - 2007 speed data a test conducted by MGS (https://mygolfspy.com/labs/mygolfspy-labs-persimmon-vs-your-titanium-driver/) in 2014 showed an average increase in head speed of 6.5 MPH when testers shifted from persimmon to metal woods; a 8.5 MPH in ball speed and an impressive 22-yard increase.  If there was an increase among Amateur golfers of 6.5 MPH in equipment change, I submit that it is no huge leap to believe that Pros would see an increase of more than 6.5 MPH from that change alone.  6.5 (equipment) + 3 (2007 - 2023 cause unstated) = 9.5 MPH @ 2.6 yds/MPH = ~25 yards increase in distance; closing in on the Jack Nicklaus 1967 gap of 30 yards (could ball speed increase between wood and metal cover the 5 yard difference?).  This author noted the difference in length and weight of the clubs and postulates, "In fact if the modern titanium clubs were of similar length and weight relative to the wooden club thus resulting in the same club speed the average tee shot would have traveled 202.8 yards – less than five yards longer!"  🤔

ScreenShot2023-12-04at8_15_46PM.png.b2182f48d8b575b1f45eebac36d7eda3.png

https://swingcrafters.com/golf-swing-speed/

Let's add some perspective in other sports performance:

In 2008, the first year MLB started tracking the speed of every pitch, the average fast ball was 91.9 MPH; the 2023 season average was 94.2 MPH.  In 2008 42% of pitchers threw at 92 MPH; in 2023 82.2% of pitchers average 92 MPH (https://www.baseballamerica.com/stories/cooper-ever-climbing-velocity-pushes-hitters-to-the-brink/).  Is the ball lighter, heavier, more aerodynamic?  Is a pitcher wearing a glove or sleeve that reduces friction between their throwing hand/arm and air allowing increased hand speed?  What does it take to increase pitch speed 3.3 MPH?

In 1980 the world record marathon time was 2:09::01, in 2023 the record is 2:00::35 (an 8::34 increase).  Do any of you understand what it takes to shave an entire minute off a 26 mile run??? Off-hand, as a recreational runner/triathlete, I'd offer that this is probably a 10 fold improvement over the 30-yard increase in golf ball carry.

In the 2014 the PGA held its first long drive competition in 50 years on the 10th hole at Valhalla.  Louis Oosthuizen’s 340-yard drive won the competition that year.  Jack Nicklaus' drive during the 1963 event was 341-yards using a persimmon-headed driver and wound ball (https://ftw.usatoday.com/2014/08/jack-nicklaus-long-drive-pga-championship-louis-oosthuizen-bubba-watson).

In a study performed by Robert Trent Jones, he measured every player's drive on the 18th hole during the third round of the 1953 U.S. Open at Oakmont Country Club (https://www.golfdigest.com/story/ben-hogan-sam-snead-driving-distance-peak-golf-digest-study).  The results showed:

300+ yards: 1 drive

300-290 yards: 2 drives

270-260 yards: 19 drives

260-250 yards: 16 drives

<250 yards: 10 drives

Wait, a guy with a persimmon head and 1953 ball hit a drive over 300-yards?  But I thought it was the new ball the allowed DJ to hit 300 with a persimmon wood.

THE BOTTOM LINE is this, the majority of us can measure up to Tour distances and all this is going to do is cost the general player more $$$ because of the burden of research and change it is going to place on the industry.  AND it will affect the general tournament player when trying to play local matches or area tournaments when trying to decide whether to play one "roll back" to stay consistent in case of tournament rules and therefore be penalized against those who are not so restricted, or play a "regular" ball in general and then try to shift to a "tournament" ball when playing those restrictive events.  The entire subject and the new rule is a LOAD OF BOLLOCKS that will do nothing to improve the game for anyone, at any level; it will only serve to complicate the game more.  But that is just my 2 cents.

 

Along with several other subjects. Retief Goosen in a recent interview about the rollback stated the gains in recent times have come from guys working out and training more. And made the point that the only way to stop distance gains is to force golfers to not work out. 
 

The equipment rules we have today have been in use for decades and the top end of distance hasn’t increased. It’s the average distance which is where that 1.8 is sees. 

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8 hours ago, Nick_D said:

Personally I am looking forward to watching professional golfers hit longer irons and have bunkers & trees come back into play on courses with rich history that have been outgrown for years. As for myself, I really don't mind moving up a tee or grabbing an extra club. As someone else mentioned, there was a move from the small ball to the bigger one and now no one talks about it. Do I think rolling back the ball is the best way to achieve what the USGA & R&A want? No. If that's what they decide? Oh well, let’s hope for the best.

Driver: Taylor Made Stealth 2 10.5 Diamana S plus 60  R flex   - 44.25 

Fairways:  Ping G410 5, 7, 9 wood  Alta CB red 65 R flex

Hybrid:  Ping G410  26 degree  Alta CB Red 70 R flex 

Irons: Ping G430  7-PW, 45, 50 Alta CB black 65 soft R flex 

Wedges:  Ping 195 S54, E58

Wedges and irons are - 1/2” and one degree flat 

Putter: Sacks Parente Duke 32.5”

Ball: Titleist Pro VI or Callaway Chrome Soft X ls

 

While not at the same time I was fit for every club in my bag as well as the Pro VI ball. I use the chrome soft x ls on my league course.  It has much softer softer greens than the club that I belong to. 

I’m on a mission to shoot my age - lifetime lowest round is 66 and I’m currently 67. 

 

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Sorry I’m telling to Nick_D above - for many players are no tees to move up to - senior plates and women are often at the front already.

 

The smaller ball was under R and A rules. They simply adopted USGA rules because their pros and US pros complained about jumping back and forth when crossing continents. 

You count play that ball in the US - legally. 
 

You are certainly entitled to your opinion but honestly a modern 6 iron is close to a 4 iron from the 70’s or 80’s - it is a long iron and i5’s and 6’s get hit often in tour events..

Regardless this won’t affect me because I’m not doing it. My plea is that no one else does either. 

Driver: Taylor Made Stealth 2 10.5 Diamana S plus 60  R flex   - 44.25 

Fairways:  Ping G410 5, 7, 9 wood  Alta CB red 65 R flex

Hybrid:  Ping G410  26 degree  Alta CB Red 70 R flex 

Irons: Ping G430  7-PW, 45, 50 Alta CB black 65 soft R flex 

Wedges:  Ping 195 S54, E58

Wedges and irons are - 1/2” and one degree flat 

Putter: Sacks Parente Duke 32.5”

Ball: Titleist Pro VI or Callaway Chrome Soft X ls

 

While not at the same time I was fit for every club in my bag as well as the Pro VI ball. I use the chrome soft x ls on my league course.  It has much softer softer greens than the club that I belong to. 

I’m on a mission to shoot my age - lifetime lowest round is 66 and I’m currently 67. 

 

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5 hours ago, Subdiver1 said:

Stop already with the modern ball stuff.  There are MANY more factors out there driving increases in distance (pun intended).  Let's look at DATA.

While he now advocates a ball change, Jack Nicklaus averaged and ranked 10th in 1980 with 269 yards off the tee and between 264 and 269 from 1980-1985 (https://www.statmuse.com/pga/ask/jack-niklaus-driving-average-by-year).  Davis Love III (https://www.statmuse.com/pga/ask/davis-love-iii-driving-distance-by-year) continued to play a persimmon drive through 1997 and averaged between 270 - 285 yards per season; between 1998 - 2010, after switching to modern equipment he averaged between 285 - 305 yards; we see a jump in his driving distance of >10 yards occur in 2001 BEFORE the "Advancements in Ball Innovation" highlighted on the chart below, and then again in 2003, which corresponds with the almost 10 yard jump in average Tour Player distance.  Is this because he had advance access to ball innovation? Or are there other factors since he already saw an increase prior to the shift?  Regardless, the USGA and R&As own chart marks 2002 as "The beginning of the end for wound balls" yet in 2001 he was hitting a wound ball >297 yards, on average.  While still playing a persimmon driver and wound balls he was able to AVERAGE >285 yards.  Between 1999 and 2012 John Daly routinely averaged OVER 300 yards.  He was the first player to break the 300 yard average driving distance barrier, IN 1997.  From 2000-2003 (while still using wound golf balls) he averaged OVER 300 yards; in 2003, 2005 and 2007 he exceeded 310 yards on average (https://swingcrafters.com/golf-swing-speed/).

The Longest Recorded PGA Tour Drive occurred on September 25, 1974 during the U.S. National Seniors Open Championship at Desert Rose Resort, Las Vegas. 64-year old Mike Austin drove the ball on a 450 yard par-4 using a steel-shafted, 43.5-inch persimmon driver and balata ball.  Potential 35 MPH tail wind and 2,000 ft altitude are considered factors, but the result has not been repeated on tour with modern equipment.  The closest anyone has come to reaching Mike Austin's record distance during a PGA Tour event was Davis Love III's 476-yard drive at the 2004 Mercedes Championship (https://www.golflink.com/tour-golf/hit-longest-golf-drive-ever).

According to the PGAs own data (https://digital-disp02-pd.usga.org/content/dam/usga/pdf/2023/2022-ADDR-Distance-Report-Final.pdf, pg 4/32) the biggest leap in distance off the tee occurred between 1994 - 2004; just under 30 yards in those 10-years (or ~3 yards/year); between 2004 and 2022 (18 years) the upward increase has been under 10 yards (~1.8 yards/year increase).  Between 1980 and 1994 driving distance increased approximately 10 yards (<1 yard/year).  All of this shows an overall gradual increase that mirrors other gains in other sports.  In addition to this, the period of ball innovation shows an initial jump of <10 yards then relative stability over the next 4 years and continuing stability of ~1 yard of increase during the "Stability thru Regulation" period highlighted.  But wait!  There's more!

ScreenShot2023-12-04at7_49_40PM.png.e8c93bf0e93d3e69f8a15105a58c8bc8.png

In March 2022 the USGA and R&A released "a wide-ranging and detailed look at distance in the game of golf" providing a picture of how amateur performance has  changed over the years (https://golf.com/instruction/driving/driving-distance-average-golfers-new-report/).  The report shows that, despite access to the same (or very similar) equipment and fitting that the Pros have access to driving distance has stayed pretty stable:

ScreenShot2023-12-04at7_42_49PM.png.6a1adfd6009a62160b6e7a5990cf8fd6.png

You CANNOT authoritatively claim that the "modern ball" is the force behind the distance increase with the presented Amateur data and the Pro distance data CANNOT be looked at in isolation from the Amateur data if we truly wish to make an objective case.  The two results either correlate and corroborate the data, or they do not.  in this case, they do NOT.  The stability of Amateur driving distance with our access to the same advances in equipment as the Pros absolutely refutes the idea that The Ball, in isolation from other factors, was A. the reason DJ was able to hit a ball 300 yards with a persimmon driver; or B. that the average driving distance on Tour has increased over the years.  There are a myriad of other factors at play including equipment, sport specific training, dedicated training and recuperation time and methods, resulting physical development etc.  But hang on for a minute, there is more...  

"IBM collected distance information at 11 of 34 official events in 1967 -- a number it deemed statistically relevant --- and found that the top-10 players in distance drove it an average of 270.2 yards. That was 6.2 yards longer (2.3 percent) than the tour average. Nicklaus, at 276 yards, was 4.5 percent longer than the average (https://www.golfdigest.com/story/jack-actually-the-distance-adv)."  So, in 1980, using persimmon heads and wound balls, before personal trainers, cross-fit, dedicated and personalized training regimens etc. were the norm, Pros were averaging 270 yards.  30 yards = ~ 12 MPH in swing/club head speed.  Well, let's look at THAT.  

Measured swing speed increase 3 MPH from 2007 to 2023; that leaves from 1980 to 2007 (27 years of evolution) to develop 9 MPH. While I haven't been able to find 1980 - 2007 speed data a test conducted by MGS (https://mygolfspy.com/labs/mygolfspy-labs-persimmon-vs-your-titanium-driver/) in 2014 showed an average increase in head speed of 6.5 MPH when testers shifted from persimmon to metal woods; a 8.5 MPH in ball speed and an impressive 22-yard increase.  If there was an increase among Amateur golfers of 6.5 MPH in equipment change, I submit that it is no huge leap to believe that Pros would see an increase of more than 6.5 MPH from that change alone.  6.5 (equipment) + 3 (2007 - 2023 cause unstated) = 9.5 MPH @ 2.6 yds/MPH = ~25 yards increase in distance; closing in on the Jack Nicklaus 1967 gap of 30 yards (could ball speed increase between wood and metal cover the 5 yard difference?).  This author noted the difference in length and weight of the clubs and postulates, "In fact if the modern titanium clubs were of similar length and weight relative to the wooden club thus resulting in the same club speed the average tee shot would have traveled 202.8 yards – less than five yards longer!"  🤔

ScreenShot2023-12-04at8_15_46PM.png.b2182f48d8b575b1f45eebac36d7eda3.png

https://swingcrafters.com/golf-swing-speed/

Let's add some perspective in other sports performance:

In 2008, the first year MLB started tracking the speed of every pitch, the average fast ball was 91.9 MPH; the 2023 season average was 94.2 MPH.  In 2008 42% of pitchers threw at 92 MPH; in 2023 82.2% of pitchers average 92 MPH (https://www.baseballamerica.com/stories/cooper-ever-climbing-velocity-pushes-hitters-to-the-brink/).  Is the ball lighter, heavier, more aerodynamic?  Is a pitcher wearing a glove or sleeve that reduces friction between their throwing hand/arm and air allowing increased hand speed?  What does it take to increase pitch speed 3.3 MPH?

In 1980 the world record marathon time was 2:09::01, in 2023 the record is 2:00::35 (an 8::34 increase).  Do any of you understand what it takes to shave an entire minute off a 26 mile run??? Off-hand, as a recreational runner/triathlete, I'd offer that this is probably a 10 fold improvement over the 30-yard increase in golf ball carry.

In the 2014 the PGA held its first long drive competition in 50 years on the 10th hole at Valhalla.  Louis Oosthuizen’s 340-yard drive won the competition that year.  Jack Nicklaus' drive during the 1963 event was 341-yards using a persimmon-headed driver and wound ball (https://ftw.usatoday.com/2014/08/jack-nicklaus-long-drive-pga-championship-louis-oosthuizen-bubba-watson).

In a study performed by Robert Trent Jones, he measured every player's drive on the 18th hole during the third round of the 1953 U.S. Open at Oakmont Country Club (https://www.golfdigest.com/story/ben-hogan-sam-snead-driving-distance-peak-golf-digest-study).  The results showed:

300+ yards: 1 drive

300-290 yards: 2 drives

270-260 yards: 19 drives

260-250 yards: 16 drives

<250 yards: 10 drives

Wait, a guy with a persimmon head and 1953 ball hit a drive over 300-yards?  But I thought it was the new ball the allowed DJ to hit 300 with a persimmon wood.

THE BOTTOM LINE is this, the majority of us can measure up to Tour distances and all this is going to do is cost the general player more $$$ because of the burden of research and change it is going to place on the industry.  AND it will affect the general tournament player when trying to play local matches or area tournaments when trying to decide whether to play one "roll back" to stay consistent in case of tournament rules and therefore be penalized against those who are not so restricted, or play a "regular" ball in general and then try to shift to a "tournament" ball when playing those restrictive events.  The entire subject and the new rule is a LOAD OF BOLLOCKS that will do nothing to improve the game for anyone, at any level; it will only serve to complicate the game more.  But that is just my 2 cents.

 

Of course it’s not just the ball that led to distance increases. No one ever said that. It’s all the equipment technology- club heads, balls, shafts.

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23 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

He’s made the same claims on wrx before he was banned. The same rebuttals and data were given then and several other times on distance on this forum iirc. Along with several other subjects. Retief Goosen in a recent interview about the rollback stated the gains in recent times have come from guys working out and training more. And made the point that the only way to stop distance gains is to force golfers to not work out. 
 

The equipment rules we have today have been in use for decades and the top end of distance hasn’t increased. It’s the average distance which is where that 1.8 is sees. 

All distances, top, middle, and bottom on all professional tours have increased over recent and longer term periods. The facts are clear for those who look at them. 

Edited by LICC
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