Planned 2030 Golf Ball Rollback

[chisag]

57 minutes ago, Preeway said:

The problem isn’t won’t be able to boycott this decision as all the balls will be conforming to this rule at some point down the road. Of course it could be motivation to spend stupid money on golf balls before the rules change I suppose. 

 

... Will they? This is really the only point I find fascinating. I am in favor of a bifurcation roll back but evidently that isn't gonna happen. What I can't imagine is every Am abandoning the ball they have played for years because of new rule. It is and always has been about making money for OEM's and not helping the average golfer to play better. If it were we would still be in a 2 to 4 year driver cycle and not picking on TM because other than Titleist they all do it, but there would be no SIM2 because it was just a minor tweak of a SIM and they already knew they were coming out with the Stealth and Stealth2. The Qi10 is a month away and will probably top the $600 price tag. $629? 

... If OEMs think they can make more money selling both legal and "illegal" golf balls they most certainly will. I didn't know how much tooling will go into manufacturing a new ball or can they continue to manufacture both. So worst case scenario is they stock pile the "illegal" balls and sell them for years. Maybe even at a premium price. As we have all said to a certain point, most Ams don't play by the rules. Moving the ball out of a divot after hitting an excellent drive a few times a round is no different than playing an "illegal" ball according to the rules. Who playing a fun round with friends hasn't moved their ball out of an egregious foot print in the bunker because only one Yahoo playing a head of them decided he didn't need to rake it? I still see golfers using different balls on the green. Mulligans and breakfast balls. More than 14 clubs in the bag. There are just so many rules that are broken so adding an "illegal" ball will just be added to the list of things golfers do to make the round more enjoyable for the average once a week player. 



 

[snoopy79]

7 minutes ago, ejgaudette said:

Ok so this is probably not going to saw anyone, but really all this made me stop and think. Why do I golf? Is it to hit it 300 yards or is that just a goal because it is possible, but if 270 is a big pop now ok. I play for the challenge, whatever that challenge is, hitting it far, hitting it close, trying to not hit it off the tree 30 feet in front of me as I punch out from another errant tee shot. I play to be out there with people I enjoy playing with, and how far we hit the ball will not change the people they are. It might make the 6100 yard course closer to my house a bigger challenge and tipped out at 6600 not something I want to play all the time.

The Shotgun Start I think had a good line when talking about this (note they are very pro rollback so think of this how you will) does anyone complain when playing in 45 degree weather in the northern parts of the globe and we loose tons of distance then., or do we just play the game before us and enjoy the nature and the company, or even some solitude from time to time. The game will still be the game, as it was 200 years ago and will still be a challenge.

I hope it is a chance for all of us to evaluate why we play the game and how 95% play without score or how far we hit the ball. And who knows engineers have made the groove rule that started in I think 2012 a moot point, they will probably do the same within a decade for this new ball. Drivers will be changed to optimize to the new ball, they will continue to find marginal gains between COR and CT to increase speed, and a bigger sweet spot with the result that we will all be close to or exactly where we are now.

You may now return to debating this topic as regularly scheduled.

This.

[vandyland]

10 minutes ago, d0m41n said:

I think it's valid for so many to feel upset about it but ultimately, it doesn't really change that much. 

Of course, I hope I didn't sound like I tried to tell you how to enjoy golf. Would never want to do that. 

12 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Courses aren’t going to stop using and maintaining their other tee boxes so they still have the same upkeep costs. And courses haven’t been adding more yardage like people think. That’s been shown by several studies from NGF.

I am not an expert on agronomy and I am not as close to this stuff as you, RB. I personally don't know how it will actually play out and of course I like hitting it far but if the ball drops 20% on all shots. That probably moves me at least one tee box up. I used to play from 5,700 yds a few years ago so I am fine with that. I imagine I might have a different view if I was 60+ years old or female so I don't pretend to speak for them. 

[LICC]

21 minutes ago, cnosil said:

You can’t really look at averages either.  It also gives skewed results.  For example if I hit 2 drives; one with a 2 degree open club face and one with a 2 degree closed club face my average face angle is 0 degrees yet none of my face angles were 0 degrees.    

give me percentage of golfers that swing above and below various swing speeds or various distances.  
 

 

The PGA Tour sample size is quite a large number. The averages are highly significant and valid in analyzing differences over the years.

What you described in your last sentence is an average. It is a "median" as opposed to the "mean" or "mode". 

[vandyland]

10 minutes ago, chisag said:

Moving the ball out of a divot after hitting an excellent drive a few times a round is no different than playing an "illegal" ball according to the rules.

Well, except you moved the ball out of the divot once and you hit the illegal ball every single full shot (call it, at least 20 shots in the round). 

[d0m41n]

5 minutes ago, vandyland said:

Of course, I hope I didn't sound like I tried to tell you how to enjoy golf. Would never want to do that. 

I am not an expert on agronomy and I am not as close to this stuff as you, RB. I personally don't know how it will actually play out and of course I like hitting it far but if the ball drops 20% on all shots. That probably moves me at least one tee box up. I used to play from 5,700 yds a few years ago so I am fine with that. I imagine I might have a different view if I was 60+ years old or female so I don't pretend to speak for them. 

I did not take it as that at all. I just see both sides of this coin. I think I lean towards "well what can I really do" and this won't stop me from playing golf by any means. I just think it's nice to see and hear everyone's takes!

[Berg Ryman]

Well, yay for me for getting my 5 dozen B-XS this season... this decision is bad and stupid, the committees should feel bad and stupid, and that's all I wanna say about that.

[Preeway]

19 minutes ago, chisag said:

 

... Will they? This is really the only point I find fascinating. I am in favor of a bifurcation roll back but evidently that isn't gonna happen. What I can't imagine is every Am abandoning the ball they have played for years because of new rule. It is and always has been about making money for OEM's and not helping the average golfer to play better. If it were we would still be in a 2 to 4 year driver cycle and not picking on TM because other than Titleist they all do it, but there would be no SIM2 because it was just a minor tweak of a SIM and they already knew they were coming out with the Stealth and Stealth2. The Qi10 is a month away and will probably top the $600 price tag. $629? 

... If OEMs think they can make more money selling both legal and "illegal" golf balls they most certainly will. I didn't know how much tooling will go into manufacturing a new ball or can they continue to manufacture both. So worst case scenario is they stock pile the "illegal" balls and sell them for years. Maybe even at a premium price. As we have all said to a certain point, most Ams don't play by the rules. Moving the ball out of a divot after hitting an excellent drive a few times a round is no different than playing an "illegal" ball according to the rules. Who playing a fun round with friends hasn't moved their ball out of an egregious foot print in the bunker because only one Yahoo playing a head of them decided he didn't need to rake it? I still see golfers using different balls on the green. Mulligans and breakfast balls. More than 14 clubs in the bag. There are just so many rules that are broken so adding an "illegal" ball will just be added to the list of things golfers do to make the round more enjoyable for the average once a week player. 



 

I’m going on the assumption that ball makers won’t want to make a non conforming version of the same ball but there will definitely be research into new ways to be conforming and still get more distance. I’d be really curious to see how many models, and which models, would be non-conforming with the new rule. Are we talking only the ProV1 series for Titleist versus every product they make?

Edited December 4, 2023 by Preeway

[BallsLeon]

I'm interested to see how they market nerfed balls to the average joe. I can see it now, "Challenge yourself, play like the pros."

[chisag]

1 minute ago, vandyland said:

Well, except you moved the ball out of the divot once and you hit the illegal ball every single full shot (call it, at least 20 shots in the round). 

 

... Well if you are gonna get picky  once they sign their scorecard after moving the ball out of the divot they are disqualified. Same for 16 clubs in the bag, dropping at the OB stakes, rolling the ball in the fairway, cleaning a chunk of mud off the ball before playing it from an overzealous sprinkler, after marking their ball on the green they replace it 1/8" in a different direction identified by a high speed camera and that breakfast ball on the first tee disqualified them before they even started. Most ams I see on a muni are just playing for fun and pay just cursory attention to any of the rules. 

[cnosil]

1 minute ago, LICC said:

The PGA Tour sample size is quite a large number. The averages are highly significant and valid in analyzing differences over the years.

What you described in your last sentence is an average. It is a "median" as opposed to the "mean" or "mode". 

Sorry, I forgot you know everything and everything you say is correct.   Now i remember why I stopped responding to any of your posts.  
 

No i didn’t ask for the median,  the median is the middle value of a data set where 50% are above and 50% are below.   I never specified the percentile rank I was interested in.  

[MGoBlue100]

3 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

The issue is that the ruling bodies don’t like the way the professional game is played. They want to dictate how every golfer should play the game.

 

Boy, we have disagreed on some things here in the forum, but could NOT agree more on this statement. Wholly nail on the head, Batman!

It also makes me laugh out loud that a player who benefited greatly from ball technology (anyone remember a twelve shot win at the US Open?) is now advocating to roll the ball back. It was fine when he was an early adopter of the technology and lapped the field a few times (Yes, he’s got a little bit of talent as well…) but now it needs to be “fixed”.

[chisag]

2 minutes ago, Preeway said:

I’m going on the assumption that ball makers won’t want to make a non conforming version of the same ball but there will definitely be research into new ways to be conforming and still get more distance. 

 

... That of course is already happening. But I think you might be underestimating capitalism and greed. Bottom line: if they can make more  still producing an illegal ball, they will. If it is cost prohibitive they won't. 

"Want to play the same ball Tiger won 107 times playing worldwide? Bridgestone XS gives you the distance you deserve. Play a better ball. Play Bridgestone XS, the LONGEST* ball you can play!"


* not legal for tournament play


 

[d0m41n]

31 minutes ago, ejgaudette said:

Ok so this is probably not going to saw anyone, but really all this made me stop and think. Why do I golf? Is it to hit it 300 yards or is that just a goal because it is possible, but if 270 is a big pop now ok. I play for the challenge, whatever that challenge is, hitting it far, hitting it close, trying to not hit it off the tree 30 feet in front of me as I punch out from another errant tee shot. I play to be out there with people I enjoy playing with, and how far we hit the ball will not change the people they are. It might make the 6100 yard course closer to my house a bigger challenge and tipped out at 6600 not something I want to play all the time.

The Shotgun Start I think had a good line when talking about this (note they are very pro rollback so think of this how you will) does anyone complain when playing in 45 degree weather in the northern parts of the globe and we loose tons of distance then., or do we just play the game before us and enjoy the nature and the company, or even some solitude from time to time. The game will still be the game, as it was 200 years ago and will still be a challenge.

I hope it is a chance for all of us to evaluate why we play the game and how 95% play without score or how far we hit the ball. And who knows engineers have made the groove rule that started in I think 2012 a moot point, they will probably do the same within a decade for this new ball. Drivers will be changed to optimize to the new ball, they will continue to find marginal gains between COR and CT to increase speed, and a bigger sweet spot with the result that we will all be close to or exactly where we are now.

You may now return to debating this topic as regularly scheduled.

I love this. Thanks for sharing it. I think golf is so unlike so many other sports where you have a few shots a year that you think to yourself "wow, that was like a tour pro" and it's incredible to feel that. I hit a drive 310 yards on Friday, which is easily top 2 distance I've hit ever. That high is so much fun and it's why I play. The challenge to figure out how to choose a club and shot and everything offers so many potential variables that I love.

[GolfSpy_APH]

14 minutes ago, Berg Ryman said:

Well, yay for me for getting my 5 dozen B-XS this season... this decision is bad and stupid, the committees should feel bad and stupid, and that's all I wanna say about that.

Thankfully you have roughly 6 years to loose all those golf balls before this will come into play. 

[d0m41n]

5 minutes ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

Thankfully you have roughly 6 years to loose all those golf balls before this will come into play. 

Too true haha. I just bought 48 Maxfli's & 36 Oncores last week

[MGoBlue100]

1 hour ago, vandyland said:

"The distance thieves at the USGA and R&A are coming for your golf ball, and while there's still plenty to learn and discussions to be had, if you're a paid member of either, I'd suggest cancelling immediately."

I mean, that is an outrageous comment. This is laughable. We don't even really know what this is going to look like but already this guy/girl is asking to defund these orgs. LOL. 

I was a USGA Member for a long time. Mostly because Arnie told me I should be, and I thought the bag tag looked cool. Eventually, however, I realized that they were using my money to advocate things (like this) that I didn’t agree with. They care about the game staying the way THEY want it to be, with zero regard for what their “constituents” think or want. So, my no longer being a member doesn’t “defund” the USGA, but it’s my small protest using my wallet. 

[Steve S]

30 minutes ago, Preeway said:

I’m going on the assumption that ball makers won’t want to make a non conforming version of the same ball but there will definitely be research into new ways to be conforming and still get more distance. I’d be really curious to see how many models, and which models, would be non-conforming with the new rule. Are we talking only the ProV1 series for Titleist versus every product they make?

Volvik already makes a non conforming version of it's balls.  it's called the Magma.  It's smaller and slightly heavier than a 'legal' ball.  Don't see why manufacturers wouldn't continue to make their current balls while developing one ball for the pros.  They could still sell it to the public albeit a higher price if you want to "play the ball the pros use."  

[RickyBobby_PR]

1 hour ago, LICC said:

In 2013, the average was 288 and the leader (Luke List) was at 306. Of course there are outliers. That is why you look at averages.

No need to get testy because your arguments aren't lining up with facts.

Average goes up because more people are hitting it 300 and the shorter hitters are leaving the tour. But you can say the same about distance between 80s and 90s and so on. When you look at the actual data for the the current ball and equipment the change is 10 yards or average which again is because the shorter guys on tour have been aging out and the younger guys are hitting it further than them. 
 

My arguments actually line up with the data and that has been shown by various people who actually study the game. Broadie has done several reports on this, go look them up. 
 

 It again just like on wrx you want to stick to your talking points pick random data from different eras to make your claim. Even the USGA stated that average distance has gone up and said nothing about top end. They cherry pick their data to sell a story.

39 minutes ago, vandyland said:

Of course, I hope I didn't sound like I tried to tell you how to enjoy golf. Would never want to do that. 

I am not an expert on agronomy and I am not as close to this stuff as you, RB. I personally don't know how it will actually play out and of course I like hitting it far but if the ball drops 20% on all shots. That probably moves me at least one tee box up. I used to play from 5,700 yds a few years ago so I am fine with that. I imagine I might have a different view if I was 60+ years old or female so I don't pretend to speak for them. 

What happens to the golfer who can’t move up anymore. They now play yardage and have no way to make up for it. And from an amateur perspective distance isn’t an issue anywhere. The average golfer drives it less than 250 yards. There’s not a course around that is obsolete for the average golfer and even for the elite golfer. At the pro level a shorter ball does nothing but push the shorter player out because the advantage goes to the longer player per Broadie. Then you end up with those who can add more speed/distance as the only ones playing, they will all be hitting the same distance because the top end of the distance with current equipment is maxed out. Thor those that don’t like the appearance of bomb and gouge will only see that with the rollback. And as Sasho pointed out on social media the pros will be back to their normal distances. What will the ruling bodies do then? Roll it back some more and they won’t do it as an MLR so now the average golfer is hurt even more.

 

23 minutes ago, MGoBlue100 said:

Boy, we have disagreed on some things here in the forum, but could NOT agree more on this statement. Wholly nail on the head, Batman!

It also makes me laugh out loud that a player who benefited greatly from ball technology (anyone remember a twelve shot win at the US Open?) is now advocating to roll the ball back. It was fine when he was an early adopter of the technology and lapped the field a few times (Yes, he’s got a little bit of talent as well…) but now it needs to be “fixed”.

Goes to show that people can agree on somethings while disagreeing on others. 
 

Shorter ball gives more advantage to the longer golfer. Helps longer golfer stay relevant longer.

[Golf2Much]

It's interesting to step back and look at the social and cultural aspects of this discussion.  In my former corporate work life, I was charged with developing and implementing rather significant work process changes that impacted how people approached their jobs.  A consultant I worked with once said there's a small, but very vocal part of society that are known as CAVE people.  I asked what he meant by CAVE people?   He responded, "Citizens Against Virtually Everything!"  No matter what it was or how little it may have impacted them, they were always against it.  

Let's hear what the final proposal is, the impact it'll actually have on the majority of golfers out there and then have a fact-based discussion on the proposal.   If ultimately, we lose 10-15 yards on our drives, so what?  Welcome to my world!  Think of it as preparation for getting older!   The governing bodies would be smart to fund each ball manufacturer to give those golfers who ask three free golf balls that ultimately meets the new restrictions so they can find out for themselves the impact it personally has on them.  

[Steve S]

8 minutes ago, Golf2Much said:

It's interesting to step back and look at the social and cultural aspects of this discussion.  In my former corporate work life, I was charged with developing and implementing rather significant work process changes that impacted how people approached their jobs.  A consultant I worked with once said there's a small, but very vocal part of society that are known as CAVE people.  I asked what he meant by CAVE people?   He responded, "Citizens Against Virtually Everything!"  No matter what it was or how little it may have impacted them, they were always against it.  

Let's hear what the final proposal is, the impact it'll actually have on the majority of golfers out there and then have a fact-based discussion on the proposal.   If ultimately, we lose 10-15 yards on our drives, so what?  Welcome to my world!  Think of it as preparation for getting older!   The governing bodies would be smart to fund each ball manufacturer to give those golfers who ask three free golf balls that ultimately meets the new restrictions so they can find out for themselves the impact it personally has on them.  

Welcome to my world.  I started playing again in 2003(after a long absence) because I was too old to play(and compete) at baseball/softball and basketball.  Started out in 2003 as a 25 handicap and have worked my way down to 8-9.  Still playing most courses from the "whites".  Would like to maintain that for another couple years before moving full time to the golds.  If this rule actually results in my swing losing 10-15 yards in 2030 then I'll be playing par 3 courses.  Can't see me playing with my golf friends(most of whom are 20-30 years younger than me) when I might have to be playing from tees that are 50 yards ahead of them.(junior tees). 

[funkyjudge]

1 hour ago, MGoBlue100 said:

I was a USGA Member for a long time. Mostly because Arnie told me I should be, and I thought the bag tag looked cool. Eventually, however, I realized that they were using my money to advocate things (like this) that I didn’t agree with. They care about the game staying the way THEY want it to be, with zero regard for what their “constituents” think or want. So, my no longer being a member doesn’t “defund” the USGA, but it’s my small protest using my wallet. 

Same here! Following more than 20 years of membership, my wife and I both discontinued our USGA membership and support when this type of nonsense started several years ago.

[ejgaudette]

1 hour ago, d0m41n said:

I love this. Thanks for sharing it. I think golf is so unlike so many other sports where you have a few shots a year that you think to yourself "wow, that was like a tour pro" and it's incredible to feel that. I hit a drive 310 yards on Friday, which is easily top 2 distance I've hit ever. That high is so much fun and it's why I play. The challenge to figure out how to choose a club and shot and everything offers so many potential variables that I love.

Exactly and if we all lose the same 5% then your drive will still be relatively the same amount of impressive.

[Fred Mitchell]

10 hours ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

I definitely think the opposite. For many that I play with if they loose some distance they are going to miss that... a lot. They are going to want to swing harder to regain that lost distance and could lead to more wild swings and more off line shots. Unless we are talking 50 yard difference for the average golfer lost balls and balls being searched for is still going to be what it is. That won't change and it will still be very course dependent. The solution there is more red stakes less OB and what we have which is "biotope" essentially red stake and no go zone at all. 

I know they say most won't loose much if any, which fair enough. See it to believe it. However so many I play with have zero distance issue. Of the 80 rounds I played this season with 100s of different golfers there were 3 that I said over powered the course. Both were higher handicaps and erratic off the tee, but they also played the one ups. Moving them back (which we did for future rounds) actually helped because they played the tees which were more suited to their distance. The third golfer was myself and depending on the tees I could easily leave driver at home. 

80% of the others I played with were thrilled with a green in reg and pars. Often needing to play bogey golf and too young to move up to senior tees or just didn't have the distance to make the holes play as their par intended. 

We still had a ton of lost balls and distance was not a factor there. 

Agreed, a lot of people are barely carrying the rough or hazards of the tee as it is now they will be virtually forced to swing out of their shoes to try and do it with the weaker ball. The trickle down effect for 2nd and 3rd shots and it just gets worse.

[RickyBobby_PR]

1 hour ago, Preeway said:

I’m going on the assumption that ball makers won’t want to make a non conforming version of the same ball but there will definitely be research into new ways to be conforming and still get more distance. I’d be really curious to see how many models, and which models, would be non-conforming with the new rule. Are we talking only the ProV1 series for Titleist versus every product they make?

I agree there will be a point where they stop making the current ball. Pretty much the same reason many stopped making the old grooves. What that timeframe is for the switch is unknown. Do they cut back heading into when the change takes effect on tours and start forcing players to make the switch or for those who are stockpiling because they only play for fun to make a big purchasing run. Do they phase the old ones out completely at the same time. Using titleist they would have a release scheduled for 2027 and then 2029 if they stick to their current cycle. Do they 2025 is the last year and just make that years ball available til 2028

[chisag]

3 minutes ago, Steve S said:

Welcome to my world.  I started playing again in 2003(after a long absence) because I was too old to play(and compete) at baseball/softball and basketball.  Started out in 2003 as a 25 handicap and have worked my way down to 8-9.  Still playing most courses from the "whites".  Would like to maintain that for another couple years before moving full time to the golds.  If this rule actually results in my swing losing 10-15 yards in 2030 then I'll be playing par 3 courses.  Can't see me playing with my golf friends(most of whom are 20-30 years younger than me) when I might have to be playing from tees that are 50 yards ahead of them.(junior tees). 

 

... Steve you have your own road to travel but I have found many that moved up a tee box were much happier they did. I play with a group that can use all 4 tee boxes. I am 70 and play a Tip/Sr combo. 35 yr old pard plays the tips. 60 yr old plays the mens tees. 65 yr old plays the Sr. an the 81 yr old plays the forward tees. And one of the wives that joins us a couple times a week plays the forward tees too. 2 years ago we all played the mens tees and the transition has been no problem for any of us. We play ready golf and even though we creep ahead on tee boxes, many times we still congregate at the Mens tees and then move to our own tee boxes the it is time to hit. Still all walk and talk and it is more enjoyable for all playing appropriate tees so everyone have a chance at par on any given hole as well as some birdies/eagls for the more skilled in the group. 

... I would much rather play in front of my 35yr old pard that not play with him all. Fwiw, he is usually about 30yds longer than me off the tee. And I do think the numbers being thrown around are going to be much less than 10-15 yds for older players. Add to that the difference when miss hitting a drive may be no different al all, just those drives when we hit the sweet spot. I look at it this way, in MGS testing the Kirkland V3 is a good 10 yds shorter than Maxfli Tours. My 81 yr old pard actually hits the V3 a little longer than MT's. We have just barely scratched the surface of what this will all mean. 

[MadisonGolfbum]

With all of the tech available to ball manufacturers, it seems a ball could be developed that would resolve the speed issue on the high end without hurting the vast majority of us. Surely over 99% of the golfers in the world do not hit the ball too far.


Sent from my iPhone using MyGolfSpy

[GolfSpy_APH]

10 minutes ago, Fred Mitchell said:

Agreed, a lot of people are barely carrying the rough or hazards of the tee as it is now they will be virtually forced to swing out of their shoes to try and do it with the weaker ball. The trickle down effect for 2nd and 3rd shots and it just gets worse.

Exactly and I have seen many answers of well move up a set of tees. However this is easier said than done and in some cases there isn't that option. 

All this being said I am willing to see how this all plays out and if it all does take effect in 6 years then I will be 41 and loosing some distance already so I will just chalk it up to getting old. Till then I will play the golf balls I like playing (shout out vice!) and enjoying the distances I have. 

[Jim Shaw]

From a golfer who competes at the highest level of senior amateur golf in my country, this is my take on the rollback of golf balls.

By the time the rollback is initiated I will be finished my competitive adventure and hopefully be able to seque to social golf, that is yet to be determined.

I will continue to work on what I need to become the best I can be and use the equipment that is legal at the time. 

There have been many changes to equipment in my golfing career, and I expect more will come before I quit.

Not unlike all the topics on this forum, each member, all 160,000, have an opinion.. how great is that. 

 

[vandyland]

For all the people bad mouthing the USGA, what is the primary reason you think they are doing it (seriously, I am not trying to trap anyone)?

Is it they are obsessed with protecting an arbitrary score? Are they protecting old golf, golden age private clubs that don't want to lengthen their course? Or are they chasing an invisible problem?

I guess I have an easy time seeing why the pros, the equipment manufacturers and the club fitters are against it. The pros don't like change and are paid by the equipment companies who have invested a lot of R&D and marketing into making the best ball possible and the club fitters sell top-end performance through fitting.