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Is PAR more of a problem than just shooting it?


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28 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

I'll only quote and respond to the part of this that has to do with "par".  Par on your course, and on mine, is based on the USGA recommendations, and those numbers DO relate to what "good" players should be able to shoot on each hole.  And I really don't care if the winner at Pinehurst shoots a 280 (-8) or a 280 (-4) or a 280 (even par).  The only thing that the stated par in a PGA or USGA event effects is the few scoring records that are maintained relative to par.  

The rest of your response really has nothing to do with the topic of this thread, as far as I can tell.

I guess that I'm not understanding, Dave.

If the members play the hole as a 502 yard par 5, making it a par 4 for the pro tournament doesn't makes any sense to me.  It's not the PGA Tour's hole to change the par. it's the members' hole.  If the tour pros all make fours and threes on it, those fours and threes should be regarded as birdies and eagles because the pros make a lot more birdies and eagles than we do on the same holes. 

And if the winner of a major tournament wins with 280,

then I just can't understand the purpose of a course setup making the winner among the best players in the world shoot 280. 

280 should be what the club champion cards.  If the tournament winner--he being a PGA Tour player--doesn't average in the sixties for his four rounds,

especially in good weather,

then the course setup was ludicrous.

I guess it's why I don't like to watch pro golf.

I'd like it more if the pros were shooting lights out on a course that the club champion can play in 70 or 72 strokes.

The way it is now, it's a completely different game as opposed to the one I played and have interest in.

We don't get to see what the pros can do under our conditions. That's what would be more interesting to me.

 

 

 

 

 

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17 minutes ago, NiftyNiblick said:

I guess that I'm not understanding, Dave.

If the members play the hole as a 502 yard par 5, making it a par 4 for the pro tournament doesn't makes any sense to me.  It's not the PGA Tour's hole to change the par. it's the members' hole.  If the tour pros all make fours and threes on it, those fours and threes should be regarded as birdies and eagles because the pros make a lot more birdies and eagles than we do on the same holes. 

And if the winner of a major tournament wins with 280,

then I just can't understand the purpose of a course setup making the winner among the best players in the world shoot 280. 

280 should be what the club champion cards.  If the tournament winner--he being a PGA Tour player--doesn't average in the sixties for his four rounds,

especially in good weather,

then the course setup was ludicrous.

I guess it's why I don't like to watch pro golf.

I'd like it more if the pros were shooting lights out on a course that the club champion can play in 70 or 72 strokes.

The way it is now, it's a completely different game as opposed to the one I played and have interest in.

We don't get to see what the pros can do under our conditions. That's what would be more interesting to me.

Two separate issues, I think.  As I said before, I don't have a problem with the :definition" of par being altered slightly for the PGA Tour, expanding the recommended length for a par-4 to 500 yards or even more.  Obviously you disagree.  The second issue regards scoring and course set-up on tour, which seems a separate topic, so I started another thread:

 

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2 hours ago, Kenny B said:

I never get on a tee and think that this is a birdie opportunity.  

Well, I don't know about anyone else, but every time I tee it up on a "par 3" I'm hoping I finally end the "he's never had a hole-in-one" lifetime drought.  Heck, I might even quit the game if I ever canned one for an ace.

 

 

 

Nah, I'll just keep playing and hoping I can repeat the feat on the next par 3, and the next one, and the next one.  Yeah, wishful thinking all the way around.

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4 hours ago, Kenny B said:

I'm not really getting this thread either.  Maybe I would if I was closer to a scratch player, but I never will be.  

I always try to play each hole to achieve the best possible score.  I never get on a tee and think that this is a birdie opportunity.  For me I just like to string a few good shots together.  If I make a birdie, great!  If I make a par, fine.  If I make a bogey, well I know I'm going to do that too.  It's doubles that are hard to take.  Sometimes on the longer par 4's, I know I can't reach the green if I have a headwind.  However, unlike what others have said, I don't think about playing the hole as a par 5.  I treat the hole as an opportunity to show off short game skills.  Doesn't always work, but I gave it a shot.  I almost never play holes differently depending on hazards.  I can't remember the last time I teed off with less than driver thinking I would be better off laying up.  I need to get as close as I can!!  When I don't think about par or my score on each hole, I have a much better time and usually score better.

Actually you guys sound like you "get it" entirely!

My exact point is related to shooting YOUR BEST SCORE!  

My issue is not with anyone or any entity it revolves around what I sense is a general approach that often stems from the concept of par.  Making some feel they should or shouldn't do something that is outside their true wheelhouse.  Every stroke counts equally yet relation to par seems to cause a higher portion of the golfing world to lose sight of this.

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4 minutes ago, Badams69 said:

Actually you guys sound like you "get it" entirely!

My exact point is related to shooting YOUR BEST SCORE!  

My issue is not with anyone or any entity it revolves around what I sense is a general approach that often stems from the concept of par.  Making some feel they should or shouldn't do something that is outside their true wheelhouse.  Every stroke counts equally yet relation to par seems to cause a higher portion of the golfing world to lose sight of this.

I knew their was an upside to just being slightly better than a bogey golfer. 🙂

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Like the thinking of this post. Par, IMHO, IS most definitely an irrelevant concept.  Makes too many people think some strokes carry different values, last I checked they do not.  Although - I've made a fourteen😱 on a hole, and know that last putt to avoid a 15 was as important to me psychologically as any I've ever made.  Otherwise I was headed to the funny farm! 😜

For the record, I injured my achilles the hole before, but I 'held on' to shoot 84 that day.

 

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As a slightly better than bogey golfer, I stand on the tee thinking fairway or green on a par 3.  After the tee shot I let my location and lie dictate if I am thinking birdie, par, or at worst bogie.  From time to time I will try a miraculous shot through the trees to spice things up but for the most part I play fairly conservative.  However if there is no par then there can't be birdie, eagle, or anything else for that matter.  

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3 things:

That's what makes golf golf. The nerves we suffer standing over a 6 footer for par or birdie. It adds pressure to the situation. It's what separates the weak from the strong. It's part of EVERYTHING in golf, it's why it's an extremely difficult game. It's why the pros are so good and were not... the mental toughness. 

That being said I get your reasoning, for us golfers we shouldn't think like this, an example I had recently during a round is good for this thread. I made an incredible eagle on a tough par 5 on my course, I then carded a 6 on the final par 3. It was devastating! I looked at it like a wiped out my eagle score(which I did). Now if I'd made a 6 on the par 5 and a 3 on the par 3 I wouldn't have felt as bad as I did...weird when you think of it like that, same strokes but it completely changed everything in the round.

This thread made me think of something kind of fun, what if you had a course with NO pars on any hole but rather just a final par. Each hole was no specific length either, just a tee box, fairway, and a green. How would that change someone's mentality when approaching a course? It's hard to picture I know but is actually not a bad idea the more I sit here and type. 

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12 minutes ago, Brewmaster said:

That being said I get your reasoning, for us golfers we shouldn't think like this, an example I had recently during a round is good for this thread. I made an incredible eagle on a tough par 5 on my course, I then carded a 6 on the final par 3. It was devastating! I looked at it like a wiped out my eagle score(which I did). Now if I'd made a 6 on the par 5 and a 3 on the par 3 I wouldn't have felt as bad as I did...weird when you think of it like that, same strokes but it completely changed everything in the round.

This thread made me think of something kind of fun, what if you had a course with NO pars on any hole but rather just a final par. Each hole was no specific length either, just a tee box, fairway, and a green. How would that change someone's mentality when approaching a course? It's hard to picture I know but is actually not a bad idea the more I sit here and type. 

Now you guys are onto what I am trying to say !!!  The scores are what they are - what they are called is just a goose chase 🦅 or eagle chase.

Love that concept - it is one myself and the initially mentioned friend, discuss all the time.  What if par didn't exist and we all just navigated the holes as we saw fit.

That makes me think of the following:

Most fun my golf buddies and I ever had in golf was on our home course - 9 hole small town CC. 

6 green resides in a hollow in the far east corner of the course and 2 green in the far West.  

There were four to seven reasonable (depending on who's reason you use) routes to navigate your ball across all the other holes between through and around trees and a predominant winding creek, not to mention a few houses.  We would tee it up and just play for score from 6 green to 2 or the reverse.

None of us ever thought to imagine a "par" for this hole given that 7, 9, 11, or higher could win the hole depending on the day, luck, direction or other.  Yet we loved it as much as any golf we ever played and hit more spectacular shots than we can recall while playing this extraordinary hole !!!

Thanks Brewmaster for hitting the nail on the head!!!

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Actually you guys sound like you "get it" entirely!
My exact point is related to shooting YOUR BEST SCORE!  
My issue is not with anyone or any entity it revolves around what I sense is a general approach that often stems from the concept of par.  Making some feel they should or shouldn't do something that is outside their true wheelhouse.  Every stroke counts equally yet relation to par seems to cause a higher portion of the golfing world to lose sight of this.



I get your point and think it’s well taken. As a mid to mid upper single digit handicapper my current average score is 78. But some of that is at my club which is very difficult and includes par 4’s that are 5’s for me. My best scores there are when I ignore par on the ones that play into the wind and play them to make a 5.

It’s a mental test - focusing on making the lowest score possible is always best - but can the golfer succeed in doing that?

That’s a part of the equation for us as well as for guys on tour.


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4 minutes ago, revkev said:

 

 


I get your point and think it’s well taken. As a mid to mid upper single digit handicapper my current average score is 78. But some of that is at my club which is very difficult and includes par 4’s that are 5’s for me. My best scores there are when I ignore par on the ones that play into the wind and play them to make a 5.
 


It’s a mental test - focusing on making the lowest score possible is always best - but can the golfer succeed in doing that?


That’s a part of the equation for us as well as for guys on tour.


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I think a golfer can succeed doing anything they feel will allow them to score their most likely lowest score on any hole.  Or more precisely, whatever most likely allows them to avoid the higher numbers.  It's golf after all and bigger numbers make their way onto everyones card.  So if you avoid them, you are blowing by over half the field most any day.

 

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.. (good stuff snipped)..

.."PAR is what the professionals aim to hit" and playing bogey golf is a good day.

...


Read somewhere else in these forums that the term "PAR" is an acronym for...

"Professional Average Result"

Or.. if you take a large enough number of professional golfers (not just PGA Tour's top players) and have them all play a sufficiently large number of round of golf on the same course, then average out ALL of their scores on each hole, you should end up with a result such as "4" (rounded off to the integer) on a hole rated/marked as a "Par 4".

That's it.
(Some of those pros played that hole in less than 4 strokes and some played it in more than 4, but the _average_ over the entire field was approx 4)

So yeah - for non-pro recreational golfers a bogey .. or a relative +1 to a pro's average result (and only one shot more) .. is a pretty good score!

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I would be strongly skeptical of PAR being an acronym for "professional average result."

It's a generic word, for one thing.

Secondly, professional golf was less important than amateur golf,

even as a spectator sport,

until well into the twentieth century.

"Open" tournaments were originally created to give club pros and a small band of exhibition match pros a chance to compete against the elite , patrician amateur stars.

 

 

 

 

 

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http://www.scottishgolfhistory.org/origin-of-golf-terms/bogey/#par

This website suggests that "par" was borrowed from a stock exchange term meaning the "normal" or face value for a stock.  The use of par in golf replaced the original standard score for a hole, the bogey, around the 1890s.  The USGA first recommended par as a function of specific distances in 1911.

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I think it’s just the number to gauge ones score against.

the well played avg score is a par for that hole. An exceptional shot will create the bird, and obviously the opposite makes a bogie. That way where ever you play you always have the same formula, and you will always have an idea of how you shot any given day, as well as how you shot relative to how you’ve been doing lately.

i think where it can go south is when people get upset about where they stand compared to par. It can be consuming no matter near or far.

its a measuring stick, no more no less.

i did like Niftys thought about having the pros just play the same holes as we do. If they make an eagle, good for them. If they shoot a 57, good for them. If they have to tee off with a 3 wood, big deal... but honestly I don’t care either way. It’s just a number

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I don't think about score that much. Sure I know what par is on every hole and I know when I score even-over-under on a hole. But if someone asks how I'm playing or"what are you right know" - I say, 3 over or 8 over- or even... or 2 under for example. Everyone can relate to that easily. I never reply with 28, or 36, or 61 referring to my total score at the moment. I don't even care what that number is. I'm either even or over or under by a certain amount. Just today a guy asked what I was on the front with 2-3 holes to go. What do you think he'd have said if I'd replied... 23. 

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Thanks for the replies guys.

I just enjoy "food for thought" type discussions.

As we all do, I also will reference where I stand in terms of over or under par.  It is a standard measure that we all comprehend and can be very useful.

My whole point revolves more around those, and there are many, who don't digest par for what it is.

As I attempted to describe, I see all too often people using a score by name and supposed value to change the way they will or won't approach that stroke.  It is all too common for one of our playing partners, or even ourselves, to verbalize the supposed higher value prior to making a stroke of any kind - most often a putt.  Many times this will psych them out from the get-go and eliminate not only their chance of success on that stroke but also on subsequent strokes when they fail to succeed.

Although there are others (all of us - of course 🤥) who only rise to those occasions and raise our level of play for that stroke of such import!

 

Maybe this is the golf coach in me talking .... but I just sense that when any player loses ground to par at a rate higher than they wished prior to the round, or gains strokes in an equally unexpected fashion ...... then they lose sight of what they are doing or what is still ahead of them in either situation.

Three holes in and 6 over for a good player is not in and of itself a death sentence for the round.  There are far more holes left than they played .... plenty of opportunity to get your arze in gear and shoot a couple over.  

-2 after seven for a guy who normally shoots 82 ...... no cause for alarm either ..... just keep playing and stop looking at how you stand to par.

Meaning ...... we relate that over or under par at any point in the round and then just attach it to 72 and imagine that as our final score.  The two are realistically as unrelated as they are seemingly intertwined. 

I simply am convinced that this would be less common if the mindset was more in line with the reality - which is that it is the final total that matters.  As much as this sounds like they are the same, for many they are not from a mindset /psychological approach aspect. 

Just my thoughts from playing, observing, reading, and coaching - it also stems from seeing similar thinking in other sports as it relates to score prior to the end of whatever game is being played.

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5 hours ago, PlaidJacket said:

I don't think about score that much. Sure I know what par is on every hole and I know when I score even-over-under on a hole. But if someone asks how I'm playing or"what are you right know" - I say, 3 over or 8 over- or even... or 2 under for example. Everyone can relate to that easily. I never reply with 28, or 36, or 61 referring to my total score at the moment. I don't even care what that number is. I'm either even or over or under by a certain amount. Just today a guy asked what I was on the front with 2-3 holes to go. What do you think he'd have said if I'd replied... 23. 

Wait, I thought you had 24 so far?🧐

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This is an interesting discussion because when I shoot my lowest scores - I am never really paying attention to individual pars but rather hitting the shots needed. Case in point - I played a round a few weeks ago with my wife riding along with me - the course was playing 6,000ish and I was just enjoying my wife's company and trying to hit shots and make putts - when I totalled it up at the end - 64. It was shocking to me - I knew I was playing well but I was lost in the game and not par. I'm not sure if I'm conveying my thoughts well enough but the more focused I am in hitting shots the better my results.


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