The Future of Country Clubs

[DiscipleofPenick]

What do we think the future holds for the status of the country club? I know clubs took a few big hits recently going back 20 years, or at least since 2008. And at least in Northern Ohio we had a course-pocalypse in 2017/18 where about 20 or so public and private courses were closed. Fortunately, most of these courses were the goat ranches that we're on their last legs anyways, and some of them have changed hands to new ownership. 

Does anyone see anything happening where some of the mid-tier and lower level clubs relaxing thier membership qualifications, or going public? I think this is the type of course that stands to be effected the most if the economic downturn worsens. The elite level clubs won't be effected (or effected very little) and the public courses have a much larger client base to pull from. I'm sure Cleveland, like a lot of northern cities, more people are having an issue paying for a club that they can't use 4 or 5 months out of the year. I'm getting close to the point where I can join one in the next 2-4 years, but that is a huge detriment for me.

What I am wishing for is that some of these clubs begin to offer some kind of modified membership, not a social membership as I know what that is and that is not what I am looking for or talking about. Up here our active season is April 1-October 31. So what I want is access to a high quality course for those 6 months. Just the course and practice facilities. I don't care about the fitness, fine dining, tennis courts, pool, or social connections/politics. I am imagining something where I would be considered a limited member where the stipulations are (spitballing here) that I can't enter member events and can't play before noon on weekends. No one around here offers this. 

Does any club in your areas have this? Could this be the future of some clubs?

[Tom the Golf Nut]

My last private club struggled and still is. After years of my recommendations to open the club up on Monday to the public for golf only they finally did it to generate more cash flow. Then it was Monday and Tuesday. It is generating more cash flow, but it also generated more course maintenance. This is a decently maintained course but now the traps don't get raked, divots not filled, pitch marks not fixed and such. So, the crew has more work to do and putting in more hours. Being the first one out in the morning gave you great conditions. Afternoon not so much. 

Fast forward to my new course. It was listed as a private country club, so I signed up as it is the closest to home. It turns out that they have cash flow issues. Not as bad but enough to go public until they reach the membership headcount they need. Then they said they would go back to private. But right now, it has the same issues, the public does not seem to care about the course conditions. They tear it up and leave it for the smaller crew to fix. I'm just hoping it goes back to private sooner than later. 

To your point about all the other things that a CC will provide that you do not want to use (pool, tennis courts, dining and such) that's just how they roll. They want something for the family so everyone can spend money. You can go the other way. Fine dining membership, pool membership and such but I don't think you will ever see a golf only when it is a full-service club. There are country clubs that state they are golf only, but they are harder to find. Basically, a private golf course with no frills. 

You can find semiprivate courses that open to the public after 12:00 on weekends and usually one day during the week. But now you're not a member and you are fighting for a tee time weeks in advance.  

 

[DiscipleofPenick]

59 minutes ago, Tom the Golf Nut said:

My last private club struggled and still is. After years of my recommendations to open the club up on Monday to the public for golf only they finally did it to generate more cash flow. Then it was Monday and Tuesday. It is generating more cash flow, but it also generated more course maintenance. This is a decently maintained course but now the traps don't get raked, divots not filled, pitch marks not fixed and such. So, the crew has more work to do and putting in more hours. Being the first one out in the morning gave you great conditions. Afternoon not so much. 

Fast forward to my new course. It was listed as a private country club, so I signed up as it is the closest to home. It turns out that they have cash flow issues. Not as bad but enough to go public until they reach the membership headcount they need. Then they said they would go back to private. But right now, it has the same issues, the public does not seem to care about the course conditions. They tear it up and leave it for the smaller crew to fix. I'm just hoping it goes back to private sooner than later. 

To your point about all the other things that a CC will provide that you do not want to use (pool, tennis courts, dining and such) that's just how they roll. They want something for the family so everyone can spend money. You can go the other way. Fine dining membership, pool membership and such but I don't think you will ever see a golf only when it is a full-service club. There are country clubs that state they are golf only, but they are harder to find. Basically, a private golf course with no frills. 

You can find semiprivate courses that open to the public after 12:00 on weekends and usually one day during the week. But now you're not a member and you are fighting for a tee time weeks in advance.  

 

You are right about a lot of that, and I understand why they are set up the way they are, As far as I know there is only one Golf club in the area, and everything else is country clubs. So I could check that out, but it's a bit outside the city, and I'm still paying for a 12-month membership. I know they offer discounted dues for the first year, but because I'm over 30, I would start paying the full rate the second year. And there's plenty of clubs that are struggling or changed hands recently up here, and I would think offering a seasonal membership might be better than having to open it up to the public completely. That way they could still be somewhat discretionary about who's on their course and the treatment it's treatment.

Also, it seems like semi-private courses are all but done. I can only think of one of those in CLE, but they don't refer to themselves a such. And I think there's 2-3 public courses that have a pretty healthy season pass membership that it's tough to get AM tee times at them as well. So for all intents and purposes I think those fit the definition of semi-private.

Edited May 8, 2023 by DiscipleofPenick

[vandyland]

2 hours ago, DiscipleofPenick said:

What do we think the future holds for the status of the country club?

I could be wrong but I feel like the overall thrust of people in their 20s and 30s is away from things like country clubs and more towards trips/experiences. There will still be people that want to join clubs and, as you stated, the highest end clubs will always maintain their elite status which drives demand. In general, things feel like they get less formal and traditional every decade and that seems to fly in the face of the stuffiness that many clubs can exude. Now, that just may mean that clubs continue to evolve along with the changes in consumer tastes but I am a bit bearish on the future growth of TRADITIONAL GOLF and, by extension, traditional golf clubs. 

I feel the same way about small, private liberal arts colleges, honestly. You must be truly great to justify your cost and existence and the same goes for these clubs. What are you offering rather than just being a stock, private club with decent to good conditioning and two fairway bunkers and two greenside bunkers on every hole?

[tony@CIC]

Certainly, the situation is exacerbated because of the Ohio's weather but there are options. There are still a few (not upscale like Firestone) clubs that are doing well and reasonable in cost; Plum brook comes to mind. You've played Catawba Island Club  which in the scheme of things is reasonable (but a bit further west then you probably want to go.  Given my personal experience in joining clubs, you need to decide on what you want; golf only, full restaurant - year round, pool, tennis, pickleball, kids camp etc. and then do the research on the club and it's financials. We belonged to a 'full service' yacht club in Mentor that was an equity club (member owned) that was bleeding money faster than lighting $100 bills on fire. They craved new members because initiation $$ and dues sustained them through incompetent management.

The club we belong to here in FL. is pure golf and owned by Clublink which has 120 clubs in its portfolio. We can play at any and all of those clubs with only the cart fee. They own 2 additional courses in Sun City Center total 72 holes but since we can take our cart to those courses there's no cart fee.  We do have all of the amenities like pool, tennis, restaurant but they're funded by our association and not CLublink.  I bring this up because if all you're looking for is golf, you might look at courses owned by a corporation. As mentioned Clublink is one, Clubcorp is another, and it seems like every week I pick up a news feed about a company buying another golf course.  

BTW, once you decide on what you're looking for, ask the guys at Windmill Golf Center - they're tuned into Northern Ohio golf.

Good luck with your journey 

[DiscipleofPenick]

10 minutes ago, tony@CIC said:

Certainly, the situation is exacerbated because of the Ohio's weather but there are options. There are still a few (not upscale like Firestone) clubs that are doing well and reasonable in cost; Plum brook comes to mind. You've played Catawba Island Club  which in the scheme of things is reasonable (but a bit further west then you probably want to go.  Given my personal experience in joining clubs, you need to decide on what you want; golf only, full restaurant - year round, pool, tennis, pickleball, kids camp etc. and then do the research on the club and it's financials. We belonged to a 'full service' yacht club in Mentor that was an equity club (member owned) that was bleeding money faster than lighting $100 bills on fire. They craved new members because initiation $$ and dues sustained them through incompetent management.

The club we belong to here in FL. is pure golf and owned by Clublink which has 120 clubs in its portfolio. We can play at any and all of those clubs with only the cart fee. They own 2 additional courses in Sun City Center total 72 holes but since we can take our cart to those courses there's no cart fee.  We do have all of the amenities like pool, tennis, restaurant but they're funded by our association and not CLublink.  I bring this up because if all you're looking for is golf, you might look at courses owned by a corporation. As mentioned Clublink is one, Clubcorp is another, and it seems like every week I pick up a news feed about a company buying another golf course.  

BTW, once you decide on what you're looking for, ask the guys at Windmill Golf Center - they're tuned into Northern Ohio golf.

Good luck with your journey 

Right, we've talked about this before. And thank you for all the times I've been able to pick your brain. And I see specials for Plum Brook all the time, but that's further than I would want to travel multiple times a week to play. ClubCorp owns Firestone, Quail Hollow, and Silver Lake all are about 45 minutes away. 

Here's the courses I consider close to me

Avon Oaks, Red Tail, Columbia Hills, Elyria, I think Red Tail and Elyria would be my best bets as things sit currently.

Oberlin isn't bad and they're just a golf club which is more of what I'm looking for. There's also Westwood and Lakewood nearby but I don't think I'm sniffing those. I could probably also make some of the clubs in Medina or the east side of CLE work if I really found something I fell in love with.

[tony@CIC]

As long as the initiation is low any of those clubs would make sense. Before we signed up for unlimited play, my wife did the math of that cost vs normal fee structure. IN our case at Catawba it was 20 rounds each, which when we lived there full time made sense playing April 1 through end of October. 

[RickyBobby_PR]

Probably going to vary by area. Those areas with money aren’t going to have the issue and many high end ones have waiting lists that are years long.

 

[IAGolfDad]

What do we think the future holds for the status of the country club? I know clubs took a few big hits recently going back 20 years, or at least since 2008. And at least in Northern Ohio we had a course-pocalypse in 2017/18 where about 20 or so public and private courses were closed. Fortunately, most of these courses were the goat ranches that we're on their last legs anyways, and some of them have changed hands to new ownership. 
Does anyone see anything happening where some of the mid-tier and lower level clubs relaxing thier membership qualifications, or going public? I think this is the type of course that stands to be effected the most if the economic downturn worsens. The elite level clubs won't be effected (or effected very little) and the public courses have a much larger client base to pull from. I'm sure Cleveland, like a lot of northern cities, more people are having an issue paying for a club that they can't use 4 or 5 months out of the year. I'm getting close to the point where I can join one in the next 2-4 years, but that is a huge detriment for me.
What I am wishing for is that some of these clubs begin to offer some kind of modified membership, not a social membership as I know what that is and that is not what I am looking for or talking about. Up here our active season is April 1-October 31. So what I want is access to a high quality course for those 6 months. Just the course and practice facilities. I don't care about the fitness, fine dining, tennis courts, pool, or social connections/politics. I am imagining something where I would be considered a limited member where the stipulations are (spitballing here) that I can't enter member events and can't play before noon on weekends. No one around here offers this. 
Does any club in your areas have this? Could this be the future of some clubs?

We have one here in Des Moines going public. They couldn't keep up member numbers. I wish a few more would relax or have times where it was open to the public. Would love to play once or twice a year at some around the area

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[Waximus Prime]

A lot of the clubs in my area (CT) got an influx of new members during the pandemic, and at the end of last year received a lot of resignations.  I think the clubs are probably in decent shape financially because of how busy they were for the last couple years, but I think budgets are more conservative this year due to the resignations combined with less new member initiation fees. I'm not talking about the super elite clubs in CT, can't really compare those to anything, but there are a decent amount of lower priced clubs that are more "golf focused."  They will usually come with a pool membership that I wouldn't use, but may not have spending minimums and can still be affordable depending on which club you choose.  Some clubs have Junior Memberships that run longer than others, for example one club in my area ends theirs at 32 and another at 36. 

I'm not sure what to think about the future of clubs.  If you think clubs in your area are going to start to hurt for $, it may be a great opportunity for you to join.  They may start advertising that they are waiving initiation, giving food and beverage credits, etc.  Even if they aren't advertising those things, might be worth asking politely if they are willing to negotiate. Good Luck!

 

 

[Kenny B]

We have one private CC for a population area of about 300K.  I’m not sure what the initiation fee is; many years ago I think it was about 6K, but has probably gone up.  There is a waiting list for membership.  We had another CC that went public many years ago.  No new golf courses in more than 25 years and population is still booming.  Since covid all courses have been slammed and tee times are premium.  Our annual membership at our muni keeps going up every year.  One person left the club after talking with the pro; he wanted an annual senior membership rate.  The pro said:  “Look at the parking lot.  I don’t have to give discounts.”  

[DiscipleofPenick]

On 5/8/2023 at 11:08 PM, Kenny B said:

We have one private CC for a population area of about 300K.  I’m not sure what the initiation fee is; many years ago I think it was about 6K, but has probably gone up.  There is a waiting list for membership.  We had another CC that went public many years ago.  No new golf courses in more than 25 years and population is still booming.  Since covid all courses have been slammed and tee times are premium.  Our annual membership at our muni keeps going up every year.  One person left the club after talking with the pro; he wanted an annual senior membership rate.  The pro said:  “Look at the parking lot.  I don’t have to give discounts.”  

That's crazy, Medina, Ohio, which is close to an hour from downtown Cleveland has a population of ~25K and has 5 Clubs.

[DiscipleofPenick]

I appreciate all the feedback and comments so far. What I'm hoping for still seems like it could be years away. Basically it's that if a course has yearly dues & fees totaling say $5,000 just to keep numbers round, I would pay $2,500 for access during the season (Apr-Oct). Like I said limited club access (maybe's the men's grill/patio) and just access to course and practice facilities. And I'd be ok with stipulations that I couldn't join member events or play before X time on weekends. 

Guess I can keep dreaming.

Edited May 10, 2023 by DiscipleofPenick

[tony@CIC]

52 minutes ago, DiscipleofPenick said:

That's crazy, Medina, Ohio, which is close to an hour from downtown Cleveland has a population of ~25K and has 5 Clubs.

The med income for Medina is probably higher than in surrounding towns. It probably also has a very high potential draw especially since some of the clubs have shut down. For instance my son lives in Hinckley and one course next to him turned into a high end housing development. 

[DiscipleofPenick]

5 minutes ago, tony@CIC said:

The med income for Medina is probably higher than in surrounding towns. It probably also has a very high potential draw especially since some of the clubs have shut down. For instance my son lives in Hinckley and one course next to him turned into a high end housing development. 

Yea Skyland closed a few years ago, but Hinckley itself still has 4 public courses. And Ironwood just got bought by the Metroparks. And on top of those 5 clubs, there's the 4 public in Hinckley, 2 in Brunswick, and 4 or 5 in Medina proper.

[edingc]

On 5/8/2023 at 11:08 PM, Kenny B said:

One person left the club after talking with the pro; he wanted an annual senior membership rate.  The pro said:  “Look at the parking lot.  I don’t have to give discounts.”  

Literally had the same discussion with the owner of my course yesterday. Someone Sunday complained about the weekend 18 riding rate increasing to $48 from $42 last season and basically told the person in the club house that they would be hurting because of the cost. Owner said they turned away 60-70 phone calls on Sunday for tee times during the afternoon (it was beautiful outside) and had a line waiting to use the driving range. No shortage of people willing to pay the price.

As far as this topic goes, we have three "uber-elite" country clubs near us that I believe are doing OK financially, but I don't know that there is a wait to join. I believe the initiation fees are in excess of $10,000 each, so they are kind of self-limiting.

Their is another group of courses that are more affordable, with membership being something like $5,000-$6,000/yearly. They are always looking for members but I don't believe there are money problems either. Nice courses, nothing special.

It's getting harder to find "affordable" golf in general, but it is unfortunate there is such a spread between a public course membership, the mid-tier club and the high-end country clubs. I paid $1,200 this year for unlimited walking and unlimited range balls (not at the same place due to logistics of where I work vs. where I play). I can't see paying three or four times that for the mid-tiers as, like you, I don't find much value in restaurants, pools or poorly-equipped workout facilities.

[WaffleHouseTour]

On 5/8/2023 at 8:00 PM, IAGolfDad said:

We have one here in Des Moines going public.
 

Which one?  
 

I know Wakonda had a lot of members quit - controversies over tree removal, shutting the course down and an assessment  - but I can’t believe they’d ever go public… I know it’s not Hyperion or DMGCC as they both have wait lists.  Do tell.

[DeBartola_B]

On 5/8/2023 at 3:37 PM, DiscipleofPenick said:

What do we think the future holds for the status of the country club? I know clubs took a few big hits recently going back 20 years, or at least since 2008. And at least in Northern Ohio we had a course-pocalypse in 2017/18 where about 20 or so public and private courses were closed. Fortunately, most of these courses were the goat ranches that we're on their last legs anyways, and some of them have changed hands to new ownership. 

Does anyone see anything happening where some of the mid-tier and lower level clubs relaxing thier membership qualifications, or going public? I think this is the type of course that stands to be effected the most if the economic downturn worsens. The elite level clubs won't be effected (or effected very little) and the public courses have a much larger client base to pull from. I'm sure Cleveland, like a lot of northern cities, more people are having an issue paying for a club that they can't use 4 or 5 months out of the year. I'm getting close to the point where I can join one in the next 2-4 years, but that is a huge detriment for me.

What I am wishing for is that some of these clubs begin to offer some kind of modified membership, not a social membership as I know what that is and that is not what I am looking for or talking about. Up here our active season is April 1-October 31. So what I want is access to a high quality course for those 6 months. Just the course and practice facilities. I don't care about the fitness, fine dining, tennis courts, pool, or social connections/politics. I am imagining something where I would be considered a limited member where the stipulations are (spitballing here) that I can't enter member events and can't play before noon on weekends. No one around here offers this. 

Does any club in your areas have this? Could this be the future of some clubs?

Back before Covid I was memeber of the nearby club under a young executive membership, basically I paid discounted dues, had restrictive tee times and couldn't do some of the social stuff I didnt want to do anyway.  It was a great program designed to have people in my generation (mid-30s with families) get invested into the club at a younger age and we would be rolled into full membership at the age of 40.  I loved the program, was even able to get 3-4 of my friends signed up and we could get our own games going since we were allowed to play in the members matches(I always thought this was bizarre also, why wouldnt they be begging the younger members to get involved).

Covid hit and golf exploded in Georgia, the courses were always slammed and getting a tee time was difficult.  At the beginning of 2022 they decided to completely do away with the young executive membership while simultaneously increasing everyone's dues by nearly double.  I suppose they were going to ride the momentum that was the covid golf wave and capitalize on people wanting to continue to play.  From a business sense I can understand that, but I can still not understand why they would neglect the younger generation of members.  I feel like clubs should be begging for active people in their mid 30's with families to become members and doing everything in their power to keep them there.  Very short sighted thinking to me, I could see some of these clubs being in really big trouble in 10 years due to their members simply aging out.

Ultimately they probably know I have no where to go and will join when it is right for me, which is frustrating in of itself.

[RollingGreens]

On 5/8/2023 at 6:27 PM, DiscipleofPenick said:

Right, we've talked about this before. And thank you for all the times I've been able to pick your brain. And I see specials for Plum Brook all the time, but that's further than I would want to travel multiple times a week to play. ClubCorp owns Firestone, Quail Hollow, and Silver Lake all are about 45 minutes away. 

Here's the courses I consider close to me

Avon Oaks, Red Tail, Columbia Hills, Elyria, I think Red Tail and Elyria would be my best bets as things sit currently.

Oberlin isn't bad and they're just a golf club which is more of what I'm looking for. There's also Westwood and Lakewood nearby but I don't think I'm sniffing those. I could probably also make some of the clubs in Medina or the east side of CLE work if I really found something I fell in love with.

Elyria now has a waiting list to get in to. Cash flow issues have been taken care of by all the new younger families. But tee times have been scooped up and getting reservations in the weekends are more difficult. 
 

most of my friends and families are members at private clubs and myself a semi private club. I can’t justify going fully private if I can benefit from my friends and family lol. 

[FightingScot82]

I think the status quo for country clubs varies greatly from region to region. I live in metro Pittsburgh and there are definitely three tiers: Elites that don't even publish membership info (Oakmont and courses designed by Ross and Raynor), Elitist clubs that try to be extra exclusive, and private clubs that want to be exclusive but need members and outings to survive. Most private clubs around Pittsburgh want $5,000 cash for a social/dining membership that only allows 2 rounds a month and sometimes exclusion from big member events. Full golf starts with $10,000 cash but sometimes they'll discount if you're under 40 or allow payments. On top of that nearly all have food & beverage minimums plus other assessments. The private club not even 2 blocks from my house is $10,000 initiation fee, but the monthly just nickel and dime you to death if you don't make hundreds of thousands: $300 monthly minimum, $300 monthly facilities fee, $150 monthly range fee, $60 for a cart per 18 holes, etc. As much as I'd love to play somewhere with consistent conditions and light play, I work in public education so I don't have the thousands laying around to join.

Dress code is another barrier. A lot of industries have become business casual workplaces - I'm not enamored about a place that requires me to shower & wear a coat to grab a beer after a round.

The IRS excluding club dues from deductions hasn't helped. A lot of clubs resisted diversifying their membership for decades - from many definitions of diversity but regardless still hurt because younger people are less likely to be looking for homogenous social circles.