A Method Of Reading Putts - Dr Grober

[Wildthing]

Just found this rather old article dated 2011 written by Dr Robert Grober.

The Geometry of Putting On a Planar Surface

Simple Model for Alignment of Short Putts (arxiv.org)

I skipped looking at all the maths (was never any good at calculus) and tried to generally understand the method being used. You will need to read the paper for more detail, but it seems like a good method to make the best guesstimate on which target line to start the putt on.

Here are some you-tube videos showing the single target being used for equidistant putts on a sloped plane.

 

 

 

Might give it a try in my next game, but I'll need to be quick about doing it (don't want to hold up play).

[Shapotomous]

I can understand what they are getting at but taking the time to read more than the putt at hand to get the intersecting aim point would take a lot of practice in order to do it within a reasonable timeframe on the green during play.  Hmmmm  maybe thats what Lexi & her group were doing today and it's the reason it took her group 5:45 to play 18.

[cnosil]

The video nor the document explain the charts that are necessary to pick that point.   The method is the old vector green reading that was sued by the aimpoint people and forced to shut down.    He does reference Geoff Mangum who has provided a method for finding the gravity vector so you knw where to aim.  http://puttingzone.com/MyTips/zbl.html .     I guess the question is whether aimpoint or vector putting is the better approach.  

 

[cnosil]

1 minute ago, Shapotomous said:

I can understand what they are getting at but taking the time to read more than the putt at hand to get the intersecting aim point would take a lot of practice in order to do it within a reasonable timeframe on the green during play.  Hmmmm  maybe thats what Lexi & her group were doing today and it's the reason it took her group 5:45 to play 18.

The multiple points is really the background to how it works and showing how all putts have a single aimpoint.    to implement this appraoch,  you find the zero break line/fall line and then based on green speed and slope you look at a chart and pick the single point to aim.  

[cksurfdude]

That _is_ interesting, buuuut.... to me the vids could've been much more helpful if he had explained and demonstrated the *HOW* of just how he found the target point.

Somewhat related - last year I took an AimPoint clinic and that was .. literally .. a game changer for me; enabled me to get a much better handle on reading greens and adjusting my speed. Gave me much more confidence in my putting - especially on very contoured and/or very fast greens. Much easier and faster to learn, and easier and faster to implement during play imho.

[cnosil]

20 minutes ago, cksurfdude said:

That _is_ interesting, buuuut.... to me the vids could've been much more helpful if he had explained and demonstrated the *HOW* of just how he found the target point.

Somewhat related - last year I took an AimPoint clinic and that was .. literally .. a game changer for me; enabled me to get a much better handle on reading greens and adjusting my speed. Gave me much more confidence in my putting - especially on very contoured and/or very fast greens. Much easier and faster to learn, and easier and faster to implement during play imho.

Yep, that part is missing and to pick the point,  you need the charts like the original aimpoint and not the express method.  

[cnosil]

Here is what one of the charts looks like;  there is a chart for various green speeds. 

[Shapotomous]

12 minutes ago, cnosil said:

Here is what one of the charts looks like;  there is a chart for various green speeds. 

Are the numbers in the rows the amount of break to play in inches?

[cnosil]

3 minutes ago, Shapotomous said:

Are the numbers in the rows the amount of break to play in inches?

Sort of.   It is the distance above the hole on the zero break line so it really isn’t exactly the amount of break since the actual break/curve amount would vary as you move around the hole.  in the image below the red shows the break and as you rotate closer to a line perpendicular to the zero break line the amount of break increases.  
 

[Shapotomous]

9 minutes ago, cnosil said:

Sort of.   It is the distance above the hole on the zero break line so it really isn’t exactly the amount of break since the actual break/curve amount would vary as you move around the hole.  in the image below the red shows the break and as you rotate closer to a line perpendicular to the zero break line the amount of break increases.  
 

ahhhh....  I think I get the idea.  I am going to check out the Aimpoint instructor locations around here.  I could use some putting improvement in general and green reading specifically.  Although having a little more time to practice and play should help a bit too.

[Wildthing]

13 hours ago, Shapotomous said:

I can understand what they are getting at but taking the time to read more than the putt at hand to get the intersecting aim point would take a lot of practice in order to do it within a reasonable timeframe on the green during play.  Hmmmm  maybe thats what Lexi & her group were doing today and it's the reason it took her group 5:45 to play 18.

Yes, that was what I thought too.  When I look at pros dig out their books showing all the slopes of the green and taking ages over a putt, I find it extremely irritating.  I might do a quick check from a different angle and use my clubshaft to extend the target line to figure out a best guessed 'intersection target'. But again, it's still about reading the slope of the green and the 'fall line' which is guesswork itself.

Edited June 27, 2022 by Wildthing

[cnosil]

37 minutes ago, Shapotomous said:

ahhhh....  I think I get the idea.  I am going to check out the Aimpoint instructor locations around here.  I could use some putting improvement in general and green reading specifically.  Although having a little more time to practice and play should help a bit too.

Aimpoint express which is what is mostly taught now is pretty different than what is being discussed in this thread.  

28 minutes ago, Wildthing said:

But again, it's still about reading the slope of the green and the 'fall line' which is guesswork itself.

It really isn’t that much guesswork.   It is more about training yourself to interpret the  slope you feel.  Based on recent direction on tour all the slopes are no longer present in the green books.  That said, it does not take long to do the vector approach or the Aimpoint express approach.   I am not sure why you would want to try and find this intersection point via multiple reads during a round; the videos you posted are to illustrate that the intersection point exists and is mathematically based. If you want to do this method, buy the Aimpoint charts or do some experiments during practice to verify the data. 

[Sluggo42]

I wonder what it is that those guys who hold up like two fingers are doing, like Adam Scott I think is one of them

[cnosil]

2 hours ago, Sluggo42 said:

I wonder what it is that those guys who hold up like two fingers are doing, like Adam Scott I think is one of them

The fingers indicate the %slope that they felt with their feet.  They align one side of their fingers with the hole or center of hole and the aimpoint is the edge of the outer finger.   The speed of the greens influences how far they hold their fingers away from them.  Using the fingers is aimpoint express.  

 

[Sluggo42]

50 minutes ago, cnosil said:

The fingers indicate the %slope that they felt with their feet.  They align one side of their fingers with the hole or center of hole and the aimpoint is the edge of the outer finger.   The speed of the greens influences how far they hold their fingers away from them.  Using the fingers is aimpoint express.  

 

That’s just way too complicated for an old fart like me…

[Kenny B]

25 minutes ago, Sluggo42 said:

That’s just way too complicated for an old fart like me…

Apparently it's too complicated for Adam Scott too... 172nd from 15-20 feet

[Wildthing]

The way I would try and do it (if I haven't misinterpreted) is like below:

1.  I establish the 'Fall Line' (dashed blue line).

2. From my ball position 'A'  I'd estimate the start path such that 'D' would be the target on the 'Fall Line'.

3. Then if I did the same from point 'B' (equidistant from hole as point 'A') and found point 'E' (on the 'Fall Line') to be intuitively correct, then I'd be in a quandary because is 'D' or 'E' the correct target point to start my putt towards?

4. I'd need to make a third estimate from point 'C' to figure out if 'E' or 'D' was the more appropriate.  If 'E' seemed the better estimate, I'd then have to alter my intended putt starting line on AE rather than the initial AD.

It's the 'Fall Line' that I actually find the most difficult to work out to be honest. If I get that wrong, then its curtains for me!

 

Edited June 28, 2022 by Wildthing

[cnosil]

 

7 minutes ago, Wildthing said:

The way I would try and do it (if I haven't misinterpreted) is like below:

1.  I establish the fall line (dashed blue line).

2. From my ball position 'A'  I'd estimate the start path such that 'D' would be the target on the fall line.

3. Then if I did the same from point 'B' (equidistant from hole as point 'A') and found point 'E' (on the fall line) to be intuitively correct, then I'd be in a quandary because is 'D' or 'E' the correct target point to start my putt towards?

4. I'd need to make a third estimate from point 'C' to figure out if 'E' or 'D' was the more appropriate.  If 'E' seemed the better estimate, I'd then have to alter my intended putt starting line on AE rather than from AD.

It's the fall line that I actually find the most difficult to work out to be honest. If I get that wrong, then its curtains for me!

 

The only things is that you are estimating the vector point.  This isn't estimated,  it is a calculated value.   And if the third spot appears to have a third point are you going to do another read?   If you don't identify the fall line then you can't find the correct vector;  if you are able to visualize the breaks from those other lines,  you shouldn't have any issue finding the zero break line.  

[cnosil]

34 minutes ago, Kenny B said:

Apparently it's too complicated for Adam Scott too... 172nd from 15-20 feet

used by lots more players and caddies than Adam Scott.  

[Kenny B]

2 minutes ago, cnosil said:

used by lots more players and caddies than Adam Scott.  

"Go get that" -Jordan Spieth  

[Kenny B]

9 minutes ago, cnosil said:

used by lots more players and caddies than Adam Scott.  

Maybe so for caddies.  I actually see more LPGA players use it than PGA players... and I rarely see DP World Tour players use it.

[cnosil]

9 hours ago, Kenny B said:

"Go get that" -Jordan Spieth  

Or go learn that - Jordan speith

https://www.si.com/golf/news/jordan-spieth-and-michael-greller-will-use-aimpoint-to-get-a-putting-edge

 

9 hours ago, Kenny B said:

Maybe so for caddies.  I actually see more LPGA players use it than PGA players... and I rarely see DP World Tour players use it.

I think it is used more than we see as they don’t really show much of the preshot routines and green reading.   Probably used more by caddies and we see them straddling the putts line.  The approach only seems to get talked about in a negative light … Keegan Bradley and the 4 foot putt.    Yes, lots of more prominent LPGA players.   Scroll through their Twitter or Instagram pages and you will see more PGA and DP players than you seem to think….Hovland, Homa, NeSmith, Burns, Bezuidenhout, Brian Gay, Van Rooyen, Redman are some of the ones I saw.  

https://www.instagram.com/aimpointgolf/?hl=en

[golfinnut]

An old fart like me just looks at stuff like this & says "Just learn to read greens the old fashioned way man!"  In my day there wasn't any "Aimpoint" or feel the slope with your feet or whatever ....  You just learned to read the greens by playing & practicing.  Yes, you do have to find a start line, hit it on that line to the top of the arc of the break, the fall line (every putt is a straight putt) ... after that it's just a matter of getting the speed down.  I never had a problem reading greens.  In fact, I think it's one of the best things about my game.  I may not be able to execute the putt the correct way, but I can damn well read it correctly 90% of the time. 

I'm a great 4-ball player for this reason.  I read the putt, the 1st guy disagrees with my read, hits it where he wants, & misses.  2nd guy sees that I'm correct but couldn't execute a straight line putt if his life depended on it.  3rd guy actually hits it on line, barely misses because he misjudged the speed.  4th guy, me, hits the putt perfectly, & in the hole for birdie.  After a few holes of this going on, they finally agree to let me read the greens going forward.    

Now I'm not saying I'm perfect, no one ever is.  But I am saying that my green reading skills are pretty good.  I don't need AimPoint or put this finger upor that finger up to measure the break in greens.  

[cnosil]

11 minutes ago, golfinnut said:

An old fart like me just looks at stuff like this & says "Just learn to read greens the old fashioned way man!" 

Nothing wrong with going with the old fashioned way.   Experience and building that knowledge about what break looks like works too.   I think basically you are doing the same thing as Aimpoint…the slope looks like this and based on experience it will break this much.  
 

[golfinnut]

48 minutes ago, cnosil said:

Nothing wrong with going with the old fashioned way.   Experience and building that knowledge about what break looks like works too.   I think basically you are doing the same thing as Aimpoint…the slope looks like this and based on experience it will break this much.  
 

Ha!   I did Aimpoint before there was such a thing as Aimpoint