Thoughts on Getting More Players

[sp0rtsfan86]

So during the last round, I had a partner discuss why the game of golf is shrinking. There's too many reasons out there, of course number one in my opinion is cost of course and equipment. But that's a far different discussion. But something else we talked about: What could golf courses do to get players back? And by golf courses I mean the muni tracks that golfers flock to in summer. 

 

Around me there's a few things they can do that they don't do real well and wanted your thoughts or whether your local public course have these:

 

Every course should have a kid program. No reason not to set aside at least one day a month for a kid clinic with a pro. That and reduced tee times later in the day for kids to play 9 holes at least once a week. Or how about a kids golf camp? The county I live in owns a few courses here but there's only one kid clinic at one course. I'd like to see bigger efforts from golf courses for kids. My college course even had kids tees and clinics, so why can't public courses?  Start them young and a few will want to play or grow to love the game like we all do.

 

On that note, get pros to give a free clinic or two to a group. No better way to get people hooked than have them hit a shot or two that's a career shot. As much as I hate being behind a guy hitting the ball 100 yards at a time, the reality is for most golfers, it's a hobby that they rarely enjoy and for the most part struggle with. So get them feeling happy and feeling good and hopefully coming back for lessons or an extra round or two. I had one group clinic once and hit the best shots of my life, which inspired me to play more and get better.

 

Reduced rates for 9 should be a no brainer. I don't get this one is so hard for courses to figure out and why I don't see it around here. it's 18 or nothing at most courses around the area. No 9 hole rates... really? So you want to charge me for 18 holes knowing that I can only get 9 in? We have super twilight rates for 18 but still, why no 9 hole rates at the courses during the middle of the day. Every course should have a 9 hole rate so that they can get people who have only an hour or two. By the time it's 5 PM you are lucky if you can finish 18 at some courses because of the front 9 pace of play. Just allow the option for some people to play 9.

 

Speaking of: I don't need 3 starters. You shouldn't have two guys at the front desk, with a starter and another guy to hand out carts. 2 should be more than enough between the front desk and starter if a course is set up well. Get some rangers out there and keep pace of play up. Guess what, you offend one group by telling them they are slow, and you offend everyone when you don't say anything. Enough's, enough.... move it along and start enforcing good playing rules. Nothing turns people who golf regularly more than slow play, and have a feeling rangers at public courses are scared to react.

 

How about all you can play specials? Or better yet all you can hit range balls? I don't mind spending some dough on things like that, even if it's for a part of the season. I'm guaranteed free golf when I show up after paying a yearly fee, and rarely do I ever not sign up for that deal. Who cares how many I can get in that day? I don't have to worry about only getting a few holes in instead of making sure I have time for 9 or 18. I get it I can join a private club, but for the sake of the game, offer more options for golfers who don't have thousands of dollars to spend on a private course with a monthly dining fee. Even if it's a weekday package or anything else just be creative. Offer more options for us, and guess what, maybe you make a little more money on the long end. Along that line, I'd like to see more courses offer free range balls for people who can't afford more than an hour to hit balls. Just something to get people to the course, and maybe they stick around for a round or two.

 

That's basically all I have, and consider my rant over. Any other ideas you guys/gals can think of? I'd love to see this game grow, but feel there's a lack of creativity with public courses. Have I missed the boat or over reacted? I'd like to hear what you all think.

 

 

 

[revkev]

This is certainly a thread that we've beaten up over the time I've been here.

 

I think I can boil down the answers:

 

1.  Money

 

2.  Time

 

3.  Entertainment Value

 

 

I don't know the exact order but they all add up - I argue time others money in the end its a combo of both - figure out a way to get a round of golf to be fun and take under 4 hours and you'll have a packed course. 

[BIG STU]

Pretty good post even though as Rev has said we have beaten it up a few times over the years but hey this is MGS feel free to vent anytime.

I know in different parts of the country we have different concerns over the game and course management etc and we have different problems. In our area I see golf having a resurgence because tourism has picked up and we are getting a lot of retirees moving to the area permantly. But we do have slow play problems from both sides. this is a highly competitive area as far as courses Counting the 60 or so odd miles we have called the "Grand Strand" including now part of Southern NC we have roughly over 100 courses. This is the time of year I like there is not much play due to the heat and the courses run some fantastic specials especially for the locals. Now I know it is different in other parts of the country.

My Dad ran a public 9 hole course in the Charlotte area in the 60s and 70s and I grew up in the business. He always took care of his customers period. If you showed up and you were not a regular you still got treated like you were one of the regular guys. I can give you some examples of his business mode.

Every year he had a free BBQ in the fall for everyone with all the fixings

He would always help kids with their game period he provided free Titleists for our golf team for several years. He even gave one guy on our team a set of clubs and he would never charge a kid or his parents for a lesson

He used to get on equipment deals and really pass the savings on to the customers especially a beginner. One year he got on a deal with Ram and bought several Ram Fastback sets bag and all. If you bought a set he would let you choose what ever putter from that line you wanted. He would also give you a couple of dozen lake balls and free tees with the set. He only made maybe $10 or so profit on the set but he had a buyback or trade guarentee on a better set of clubs. Usually the trade ins went in the rental set fleet. One guy told him you are nuts selling all that stuff so cheap. He had it figgured out though if a man purchased that set he would play some and the course on whole would make money in the long run or if the person fell in love with the game he would purchase updated equipment in the future and play more rounds. He had a lot of year round dedicated customers needless to say.

Personally I am not a big fan of the current PGM programs.True they teach business management but I dont think they teach real golf management from growing the game to customer service. They need to take a page from my old man's playbook. I think if you had more pros at the club level like him today in whole golf would continue to grow. I am not cutting down the PGA or PGM in any way because there are a few dedicated men and women out there that have a true love and concern for the game as a whole. I would love to have the opportunity to take a somewhat failing public course (not in a resort area) and apply his principals today and see what happens. It is all about people and happy sasitified customers period. A happy golfer is a repeating golfer

[Jondagcl]

It's a topic that's been discussed a few times, but I'm not disappointed anytime I see it. It means that we are all still thinking about the health of the sport. Before I jump in - I'll be the first to admit that living in the Los Angeles area I don't see what the rest of the country sees. We have absolutely no shortage of people playing golf. Many of the county and city courses have "Kids Golf for $1.00 month". Those banners are still up for those that live out here so you've seen them. There are tons of summer time programs and there are moms and dads and little kids filling up putting greens and having a blast - with organizations that bring gear for the little kids to use. (There's nothing like seeing a little 5 year old with his khaki shorts, tucked in polo and hat. It's the best!). The problem is that these organizations are invisible to a lot of us on here since we golf Saturday at 7:15am. You need to get out there in Wednesday at 11:00 in the afternoon - that's kinda hard for everyone here to do.

 

Off to the thing I think we need fixed. Golf has been an elitist and unapologetically exclusive sport for a long time. It takes time to shed that image and I think it's on the right track. I taught in an intercity school for 5 years. How man kids do you think played golf there? It's not even an option - initial investment, preconceived notion about who golfs. This is my top action item if I were King-of-how-to-fix-golf. Turn on Golf Channel and compare their crew with the crew of ESPN. Seem like a diverse group to you over at Golf channel? ESPN doesn't run many "choose your anchors cashmere sweater" competitions if you see where I'm going here.

 

I'd debate with you that time commitment is probably on the list, but further down the list. LOTS of parents have their kids on traveling or club sports teams. Dedicating entire Saturdays or Sundays to soccer or baseball tournaments, and numerous practices during the week. Golf doesn't take a 2-3 hour drive to an obscure location and an entire day of games. And bonus - as the parent you can participate and play with your kid if you want. So if they are willing to wake up early on a weekend, drive out and play 2-3 soccer games in a row at a location that is 3 hours away - you have time to hit the local executive course and play.

[JMiller]

I'm not sure if this angle has been talked about before.

 

I think course design / layout plays a big role in the time a round takes and money that a golfer most pay to play the course. Here are some major points that are completely controllable by the golf course:

Green speed

~ 11 to 13 stimp will add money in daily fees / membership dues in chemicals + water + labor to maintain the grass at a healthy level.

~ 11 to 13 stimp will also add a lot of 3 and 4 putts to the mid to high handicaps game as they don't have the touch to "get inside the leather" outside of 30 feet.

--> Final result = Longer Rounds + More expensive rounds.

 

Pin Placement

~ When working at a golf course cutting greens and changing the hole locations, I was always told when cutting a pin to find a flat spot on the green at least 1.5 flag length off the collar of the green. What i did was take a ball with me and throw out the ball on different slopes and see where it rolled to and placed it in that general area. I tried my best to have the ball working TOWARDS the hole rather then away from it. When you cut pins on top of a ridge or just barely onto the side of a slope it because where the ball is working AWAY from the hole leaving the player more long 1st putt. If they go past 10 feet because your crappy pin placement now they have another tough putt back to the pin.

--> I always said that I could turn that course from a 4 to 4.5 hour round to a 5.5 - 6 hour round if I cut all the pins in a ridicules place.

 

Starters / Course Info

~ A starter should recommend to a player a tee box based on their handicap or average scores if they have not played the course before.

~ A starter should tell players any local rules that might help speed up play.

 

 

This is not something the golf course can control, but it is something that contributes to the thinking there is a "problem".

U.S. Society

~ We all expect everything to be done quickly and efficiently

--> Mobile devices to bring the internet / phone to our pockets to be more "productive".

--> Fast food restaurants so that we can get in and out and eat "on the go".

--> Golf carts with the theory it will speed up play. (They do have the potential if used properly, a lot of times they are not used properly)

NOTE :: I can probably come up with more examples if i wanted to but there isn't a point.

 

We have all gotten to the point that we expect things to be like the Staples commercial "Easy Button".

~ Heck look at how many training aids are floating around and the marketing on clubs for the "quick fix" to improve your game.

 

 

 

 

So with all that said:

1) The game is simply too expensive for a lot of people to play.

~ Equipment to play is a lot of start up money to get going, at the cheapest you might put a bag together for $250-$500 dollars.

 

2) Parents would rather have their children in team sports. Mostly to teach them socialization and team work for later in life in their jobs.

~ This is fine, just put them in a winter sport team and then have them play golf in the summer teaching them responsibility and honesty a little easier.

 

3) Entertainment value is low.

~ Other sports, for the most part you can make your own "field" without paying to play a field, just bring the equipment and people to start a game.

--> I'm not sure that you can get a completely free golf course due to labor and maintenance, they have to at least break even on it to stay in business. However, this is where membership have a lot of value to a single course.

[MmmmmmBuddy]

IMO, the biggest hurdle that both players and courses have is $$$. Golf is expensive. Course maintenance is expensive. What I don't understand is when a golf course will let times go unsold...  Golf courses sell primarily time. When empty tee times go by, that is lost revenue that will NEVER be recovered. Isn't it better to have a full tee sheet at a much lower rate?? More players at the facility means more ancillary sales.. Golf balls, tees, towels, drinks, food, range balls ect.... I would be happy to play on a full golf course if the rate was a fraction of what we pay now.

 

Just a thought.

[Jondagcl]

I like your thinking JMiller. Course setup is a huge factor!

 

I'll add that I just reread the posts and looked at my closing line. Even the small courses have elitist names - "executive course".

[Jmikecpa]

IMO, the biggest hurdle that both players and courses have is $$$. Golf is expensive. Course maintenance is expensive. What I don't understand is when a golf course will let times go unsold...  Golf courses sell primarily time. When empty tee times go by, that is lost revenue that will NEVER be recovered. Isn't it better to have a full tee sheet at a much lower rate?? More players at the facility means more ancillary sales.. Golf balls, tees, towels, drinks, food, range balls ect.... I would be happy to play on a full golf course if the rate was a fraction of what we pay now.

 

Just a thought.

That is one of the reasons that Golfnow is such a good business model.  They sell essentially unused times at a discount to make revenue for clubs with empty times.  Better to make 45% to 60% of standard on a vacant time than 0%.

[revkev]

We have talked about several of those things JMiller and they are all good points. I absolutely agree that regardless of what we may think here golf is not seen as a good entertainment by many people. If it were we wouldn't be having this discussion.

 

I'm surprised that the game is healthy in LA Jondagcl. I live in Florida and while it's true that we have lots of people playing here it's equally true that there are fewer people playing now than 10 years ago, there are any number of private clubs that have become public, courses that have closed and a lack of interest at the game at the junior level. There might be more kids that will play in Florida than other places, particularly girls, because of the college scholarship opportunities. But the sport is far from healthy.

[whiskey golf]

Jondagcl mentioned he lives in Los Angeles and while I don't live there specifically, I agree that it seems like at times there are too many people playing at courses in California. I hear a lot of you talk about how you would go crazy playing a 5+ hour round, that's the average everytime I play. I don't know if it's just certain areas that have a lot of golfers or what but it's hard for me at times to visualize golf declining since so many people play around here. I haven't seen or heard of any courses in my area closing down and that stuff but maybe it has been declining and I haven't had enough experience to notice it.

[sp0rtsfan86]

I was trying to focus away from money and more on courses, but I like the line of thinking you all have. Around me tee times are almost always full so that's rarely a big issue.

 

The course I played today was light because one it was 95 and humid as all heck, and two we had storms on the way.

 

Went to a school where we had a PGM program, I'd say a good 1/4- 1/3 guys were straight up horrible people. They hated when someone else was on the course, and didn't understand the idea of bad golfers trying to get better. If that's any indication, the PGM program needs to add social skills to the curriculum.

[Jondagcl]

Revkev and Whiskey - today I played in Long Beach. My group teed off about 15 minutes after our scheduled time and finished 5 hours and 17 minutes later. Golf course congestion out here Is definitely something you'd need to see to believe.

 

On the 15th hole our foursome turned into a five some because the group the dude that was left behind belonged to walked off after 14!

 

That's a pretty standard Thursday.

[whiskey golf]

Revkev and Whiskey - today I played in Long Beach. My group teed off about 15 minutes after our scheduled time and finished 5 hours and 17 minutes later. Golf course congestion out here Is definitely something you'd need to see to believe.

 

On the 15th hole our foursome turned into a five some because the group the dude that was left behind belonged to walked off after 14!

 

That's a pretty standard Thursday.

 

It sucks when it gets that crowded at a course. I envy those of you who don't have to deal with stuff like that.

[revkev]

I wouldn't play. Seriously that would be it for me if it regularly took that long to play. I'm wondering if Cali has the same issue that we had in CT growing up. There were courses but most were private, exclusive and expensive. The general public was forced to play the few munis that were out there and there was very little I between. Since property was and is so valuable in Fairfield County you just can't build enough courses for the population.

 

In Florida that's not the case. The land here was developed much later and in many cases a golf course was at the center of that development. Lots of the courses that have closed have done so because the development failed so it's a housing issue as much as a course issue. There is a glut of golf courses in Florida. Not just courses but really good ones. For me it's great, I had a choice of three courses to play on Sunday afternoon all of which have hosted some sort of tour event. All are under 40 this time of year and I'd never have to pay more than $60 for them. I took the one for 24.

 

To the original concern customer service is generally poor in all places, why should golf be any different?

 

But perhaps there is something to be learned from the theme parks in our area. They are always packed regardless of weather, congestion or price. They all offer superior customer service. Maybe that is more important than we think.

[Jondagcl]

We have a ton of crummy courses, many decent to goodish public courses, and a handful of excellent ones. Near me there are 3 country clubs, 2 in Palos Verdes and one in Long Beach. One of them in Palos Verdes not only doesn't have a problem with membership, it's expanding. These are definitely not North Carolina Clubs with friendly 5,000 buy ins. Your talking high five figure initiation with some flirting with 6 figure. In the greater Los Angeles area there isn't a shortage of two things, people that golf and people that have money.

 

Here's what you'd end up doing with public courses.

- never realize that there was an alternative, because it's all you've known.

-come to a site like this, hear about 3 hour rounds and get mad

- write emails to the city, county and large conglomerate that owns and operates many of the courses here.

-receive canned email replies that say "thanks for contacting us, go fly a kite"

-drive 2 hours out of the city to find it's just as crowded

- end up just dealing with it and paying 50-60 bucks for the privilege of waiting on every single shot.

-making 5am tee times like the one I have Saturday morning. Playing the first hole with a glow ball and then chilling on the second tee killing time waiting for the sun to come up

[Jondagcl]

Oh yah and with a few exceptions customer service is non existent.

[sp0rtsfan86]

Yikes. Around me the course has a few league nights which tend to eat time. Not a huge league mind you, only an hour or two of tee off times. The good news is usually you can get on, but still the rounds tend to be a lot longer.

 

Around you guys does the rangers do anything anymore besides fill water and remove the trash? Seems like we can never get a ranger out when a guy is really slow.

 

Last round I played there was a guy trying to give a lesson on the tee box in front of us while we walked off the green after putting. We'd been waiting for him on the last 3 holes and he had a hole in front of him. When he pulled that stuff, one guy lost it in our group. I just think there's no reason for rangers not to start enforcing slow play rules if there's a hole or two gap.

[revkev]

Depends on the course with the rangers. I know several where they will move you along and I always appreciate it. No way on the muni though but even on that course it's rare to take over 41/2. The course I'm playing tomorrow is the slowest course in the area but generally that's not the case in the summer. We played in a tad under 4 last Sunday and it was pretty crowded. People don't dilly dally when it's 92 and 90 percent humidity.

[Jondagcl]

Depends on the course. Some have no rangers due to "budget cuts" some trade the marshals privileges and they work on a semi-volunteer style basis. But very few do anything about pace. To be fair, pace is secondary to almost all our courses playing 5somes. It's actually a rare course that doesn't put out 5s. So with guys going out in a cattle call fashion, with 5 or so minutes between groups. 5 guys at a time with no letting up till twilight rates kick in, and then even more people show up.

[BIG STU]

I wouldn't play. Seriously that would be it for me if it regularly took that long to play. I'm wondering if Cali has the same issue that we had in CT growing up. There were courses but most were private, exclusive and expensive. The general public was forced to play the few munis that were out there and there was very little I between. Since property was and is so valuable in Fairfield County you just can't build enough courses for the population.

 

In Florida that's not the case. The land here was developed much later and in many cases a golf course was at the center of that development. Lots of the courses that have closed have done so because the development failed so it's a housing issue as much as a course issue. There is a glut of golf courses in Florida. Not just courses but really good ones. For me it's great, I had a choice of three courses to play on Sunday afternoon all of which have hosted some sort of tour event. All are under 40 this time of year and I'd never have to pay more than $60 for them. I took the one for 24.

 

To the original concern customer service is generally poor in all places, why should golf be any different?

 

But perhaps there is something to be learned from the theme parks in our area. They are always packed regardless of weather, congestion or price. They all offer superior customer service. Maybe that is more important than we think.

I am with you on the first part Rev. I did quit for 3 years or so for that very reason. In the Charlotte area in the 70sand early 80s there were more players than courses. In those days public golf actually sucked in Charlotte. One day at a public course it took us 3 1/2 hrs to play 9 holes it took us another 45 minutes to play the 10th hole after that I said to heck with this I took my bag off the cart and walked in. Did not play for close to 3 years. We finally got a solution we started going to the Pinehurst area to play on the weekends. By the backroads it took about 1 1/2 hrs to get there and we carpooled. In the summer it was not crowded and we got some fantastic rates. We could drive down early Saturday morning get the first tee times out and then afternoon play on that course or another one. We could easily get in 36 holes normally. Sometimes we went home then or sometimes we stayed all weekend. Down here we have about 100 courses in a roughly 60 mile area. Most of the retirees play the mornings and try to get prime tee times this was hard to do for a while untill the courses saw that the locals kept them open in the recession. A lot of us locals in the seasons play lower tier courses that are not any part of the motel packages

[revkev]

BTW Stu we do the same thing here - play the top tier courses in the summer when the rates go down and the lower tier ones in the winter when the rates are jacked.  However since the recession even some of the better courses offer a Florida resident discount.  I'm sure that's as a thank you for keeping them afloat or a way of getting our loyalty business in the offseason.  It tends to work.

[markb]

So this is the other "what's wrong with Golf today" thread?   Why couldn't I find it before?

 

All good points here, I especially like the comparisons of the different problems found in different regions around the country.   I used to live in both Socal and NYC, so I remember the challenges of finding a place to play and the long drives and high costs involved.  I don't envy you guys.   All I can say is, take your clubs with you on business trips and squeeze in quick rounds at courses near the airports.

 

I'll add one suggestion for speeding up play that I NEVER see when this topic comes up, I don't know why.  Everyone, including the PGA/USGA, talks about this "Tee it forward" campaign -- an effort to get all male golfers to swallow their egos and move up a tee box, enabling them to have more fun and play faster.

 

Good idea, but isn't that like the shepherd begging the sheep for cooperation?   The shepherd has the power, he can do what he wants and the sheep will follow.

 

How about a "MOVE it forward" campaign?   The pro just tells the greenskeeper to move all the markers up in the morning.   Okay, leave the blacks at the tips, but everything else gets kicked up, nobody knows the difference, no big ad campaigns are necessary and the stubborn males don't have to swallow their egos playing from the whites instead of the blues.   This is what we surreptiously did at my course whenever a slow blockage occurred on private outing days.  The marshal would zoom a hole ahead of the block and start moving up all markers.   It usually worked, especially on difficult hazard holes.

[Jondagcl]

Mark you made it, come on it.  Kegs in the back, cups are right by the door.  :-)

and I'll second golf courses leading by example and simply moving the markers up.  Seems like a no brainer right.

[BIG STU]

BTW Stu we do the same thing here - play the top tier courses in the summer when the rates go down and the lower tier ones in the winter when the rates are jacked.  However since the recession even some of the better courses offer a Florida resident discount.  I'm sure that's as a thank you for keeping them afloat or a way of getting our loyalty business in the offseason.  It tends to work.

I know you are right on the lower summer rates. A few years ago my friend from Charlotte and some othere went to Florida for a golf outing. they got some smoking deals. Someone in their group had to go back early and he called me on Thursday night. I ended up driving down to St Augustine got to play TPC Sawgrass very cheap. It ws worth the 6 hr drive for that alone. BTW I hit no 17 in 1 with a 9 iron made par!!

I know a few years back they had some great deals in Florida in fact my friends in Charlotte could drive down to Florida on some golf packages cheaper than they could play in MB. As a result they were not the only ones in the Carolinas,Virginia and Georgia doing this it really put a dent on the golf business down here untill the powers to be down here drastically adjusted the rates

[revkev]

Mark I'm a huge advocate for what you are suggesting. In fact I would have only two sets of tees out, the back and the forward. The back would be nowhere near the tips and would be set so that the normal golfer would have lots of short irons in. Courses rarely had more than two sets of tees when I was younger.

 

I like your suggestion better, way better than mine with a twist. No one plays the tips without the pro's permission or if they do the starter tells them on the first tee that any delays and you'll be asked to skip a hole and move up.

 

This reminds me of another thread that I started a couple of years back that I'd like to refresh. We have a new super at our league course. He's doing a great job and the course is in magnificent shape. Generally though the pin positions are much more difficult and the tees are back to the point that the second to back tees are where the back tees often used to be. I noticed the other day that everyone's handicap index is up sometimes by as much as two strokes. Interestingly pace of play has not been affected. I think that's because he tends to keep the greens a tick slower and we are a putt everything out league.

[sp0rtsfan86]

Mark you made it, come on it.  Kegs in the back, cups are right by the door.  :-)

and I'll second golf courses leading by example and simply moving the markers up.  Seems like a no brainer right.

I hate this. I like playing the whites or middle-back tees. Not a fan of reds, only because I enjoy the challenge and feel like hitting tougher shots. My course does this on about half the holes every round. Needless to say hasn't helped much.