Driver and all irons vs Drive/Wood/Hybrid/irons setup

[Vegan_Golfer_PNW]

Been pondering this a lot lately that maybe my steep AOA is causing me problem with Woods and Hybrids and if putting in Utility irons is the way to go. Maybe it is just that I don't practice those clubs enough to get in a groove with them. I utilize a 17* DI due to my steep AOA and have become consistent with it from the tee. I am now debating a Utility 3I to have something a little longer from the fairway than my 4I. That way I can keep a steeper swing with 85% of my clubs. Does anyone else have a bag of no woods and hybrids?

[edingc]

39 minutes ago, rbsiedsc said:

Been pondering this a lot lately that maybe my steep AOA is causing me problem with Woods and Hybrids and if putting in Utility irons is the way to go. Maybe it is just that I don't practice those clubs enough to get in a groove with them. I utilize a 17* DI due to my steep AOA and have become consistent with it from the tee. I am now debating a Utility 3I to have something a little longer from the fairway than my 4I. That way I can keep a steeper swing with 85% of my clubs. Does anyone else have a bag of no woods and hybrids?

Curious if you've tried a hybrid with a shorter than stock shaft or maybe more of a players hybrid like the Callaway Apex? 

I've dropped my 3 wood and replaced with with a 17 degree (lofted down to 16) Callaway Super Hybrid, so I guess I'm technically in the "no woods" camp.

[Vegan_Golfer_PNW]

7 minutes ago, edingc said:

Curious if you've tried a hybrid with a shorter than stock shaft or maybe more of a players hybrid like the Callaway Apex? 

I've dropped my 3 wood and replaced with with a 17 degree (lofted down to 16) Callaway Super Hybrid, so I guess I'm technically in the "no woods" camp.

good idea. i guess i could try the gripping down on my 3H (19*) and seeing how that goes. need something that fills in after my 4i. these soggy PNW days make courses really long!

[LeftyMatt89]

I’ve tried it and honestly my scores stayed about the same. I think as long as you are okay not going for some par 5s in 2 or not having as long as secondary’s tee shot if a driver carries too far. 
 

Once I learned to hit a reliable lower flight 3 iron off the tee I knew I could game it without a hybrid or a fairway wood. I only hit my two hybrid max 2 times a round. From a strokes gained perspective, I might be better off if I actually laid up instead of going for it because I can miss big on 2nd shots into a par 5. 
 

since you have Arccos I’d try to play a few times with no woods and see how the analysis of the round is after. My 2 cents. 

[Vegan_Golfer_PNW]

42 minutes ago, LeftyMatt89 said:

I’ve tried it and honestly my scores stayed about the same. I think as long as you are okay not going for some par 5s in 2 or not having as long as secondary’s tee shot if a driver carries too far. 
 

Once I learned to hit a reliable lower flight 3 iron off the tee I knew I could game it without a hybrid or a fairway wood. I only hit my two hybrid max 2 times a round. From a strokes gained perspective, I might be better off if I actually laid up instead of going for it because I can miss big on 2nd shots into a par 5. 
 

since you have Arccos I’d try to play a few times with no woods and see how the analysis of the round is after. My 2 cents. 

Thanks. I have and just had DI/3H (grounded my driver for a time) and was ok. I think most would benefit from laying up and playing a stock club into a green. 

[LeftyMatt89]

16 minutes ago, rbsiedsc said:

Thanks. I have and just had DI/3H (grounded my driver for a time) and was ok. I think most would benefit from laying up and playing a stock club into a green. 

I have found the driver is an invaluable resource to get controllable. Good luck on the journey!

[Micah T]

Been pondering this a lot lately that maybe my steep AOA is causing me problem with Woods and Hybrids and if putting in Utility irons is the way to go. Maybe it is just that I don't practice those clubs enough to get in a groove with them. I utilize a 17* DI due to my steep AOA and have become consistent with it from the tee. I am now debating a Utility 3I to have something a little longer from the fairway than my 4I. That way I can keep a steeper swing with 85% of my clubs. Does anyone else have a bag of no woods and hybrids?

I had a no-woods bag to start the year, then added a driver I couldn’t hit the ocean with, got fit for a shaft that I had to wait for, then gradually learned to hit a 3 wood. Emphasis on gradually. I thought that a driving 3 iron could help me off the tee. So yeah, I’ve been down the no wood road. I never stayed on it for long due to how average I was with it. I’m a solid iron player, but not good enough to permanently bench the woods.
How steep of a delivery are we talking? I used to game a Titleist U-510 3 iron for the same reasons you mentioned, but I was giving up too much yardage, and not really hitting any more fairways. My 3 wood AoA is about -3.8 and my driver is about -0.9: my point is you can be fit for a driver and/or a 3 wood that will maximize your output. Add me to the list as the thousandth person to tell you to get fit, but there is a wood out there for you that won’t cost you 40 yards.

The farther you hit it, the shorter club you get to approach the green with, and the more accurate you’ll be. I stopped hitting driver for about 20 rounds this summer while waiting for a custom shaft, and while I did hit 2 more fairways a round, I went from hitting 9-12 greens a round to hitting 5. This did my score no favors, and for a while I thought I was actually getting worse. In reality I was just hitting longer clubs into greens and missing more of them like any mere mortal would. A cautionary tale, but a true story nonetheless.
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[Vegan_Golfer_PNW]

15 minutes ago, Micah T said:

How steep of a delivery are we talking? I used to game a Titleist U-510 3 iron for the same reasons you mentioned, but I was giving up too much yardage, and not really hitting any more fairways. My 3 wood AoA is about -3.8 and my driver is about -0.9: my point is you can be fit for a driver and/or a 3 wood that will maximize your output. Add me to the list as the thousandth person to tell you to get fit, but there is a wood out there for you that won’t cost you 40 yards.

The farther you hit it, the shorter club you get to approach the green with, and the more accurate you’ll be. I stopped hitting driver for about 20 rounds this summer while waiting for a custom shaft, and while I did hit 2 more fairways a round, I went from hitting 9-12 greens a round to hitting 5. This did my score no favors, and for a while I thought I was actually getting worse. In reality I was just hitting longer clubs into greens and missing more of them like any mere mortal would. A cautionary tale, but a true story nonetheless.
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My driver was ~-1.5-2.5*. No idea what my 3w is. 

[Kansas King]

I think going full irons is okay if it allows you to eliminate a big miss. If you can take a part of the course out of play and avoid hitting a few nasty shots OB, your score may benefit from all irons/hybrid irons. However, I agree with what was said above, distance matters. If you can hit a 2 or 3 iron 240 - 250 yards, you are probably in good shape but being able to rope out a solid fairway wood another 20 yards could really help the score. I'm not trying to judge, but if you have a 30 handicap you are probably having some big misses on the course and playing clubs that add consistency and help remove the worst shots could really help your scoring but clubs can only do so much.

This is for anyone, but I would really recommend taking lessons if you aren't already. Having a really steep AOA is okay for some shots but if you can't get it corrected, you will likely always be fighting spin and have a hard time controlling the ball especially if you have a fast swing. Some time with a pro and a little work on the swing could really pay huge dividends long-term and open up your game. 

[Vegan_Golfer_PNW]

2 hours ago, Kansas King said:

I think going full irons is okay if it allows you to eliminate a big miss. If you can take a part of the course out of play and avoid hitting a few nasty shots OB, your score may benefit from all irons/hybrid irons. However, I agree with what was said above, distance matters. If you can hit a 2 or 3 iron 240 - 250 yards, you are probably in good shape but being able to rope out a solid fairway wood another 20 yards could really help the score. I'm not trying to judge, but if you have a 30 handicap you are probably having some big misses on the course and playing clubs that add consistency and help remove the worst shots could really help your scoring but clubs can only do so much.

This is for anyone, but I would really recommend taking lessons if you aren't already. Having a really steep AOA is okay for some shots but if you can't get it corrected, you will likely always be fighting spin and have a hard time controlling the ball especially if you have a fast swing. Some time with a pro and a little work on the swing could really pay huge dividends long-term and open up your game. 

Thanks for the advice. My 30 cap is due to me making some swing changes, short game tinkering and really struggling keeping driver in play. There was a time 3-4 yrs ago I had a 5w I loved and wish I would have gone that route instead of a 3w as that club was point and shoot for me. I do agree I may be limited carrywise if I go all irons. I do need to boost my swing speed as well (part of off-season plan to gain flexibility and tune some swing muscles). Right now the cold and dampness gets me very little roll, which would cause this experiment to fail. The nice thing with irons is I can at least keep them in play, which help my score a ton. I am just playing courses longer than they are meant to be. 

[Vegan_Golfer_PNW]

Thinking more on this, will spend the offseason learning to hit these longer clubs. If I still am having trouble will re-evaluate. I have a feeling maybe I swap 3w for a shortened 4w. If I can learn to hit these, may kick the DI out of the bag since it only has one job. 

[MNUte]

7 minutes ago, rbsiedsc said:

Thinking more on this, will spend the offseason learning to hit these longer clubs. If I still am having trouble will re-evaluate. I have a feeling maybe I swap 3w for a shortened 4w. If I can learn to hit these, may kick the DI out of the bag since it only has one job. 

A piece of advice for learning to strike longer irons: go onto eBay or into a good will or thrift store and get an old blade 3 iron for ten bucks. Practicing with that will improve your striking so much. 

[Vegan_Golfer_PNW]

38 minutes ago, MNUte said:

A piece of advice for learning to strike longer irons: go onto eBay or into a good will or thrift store and get an old blade 3 iron for ten bucks. Practicing with that will improve your striking so much. 

Thanks. I don’t have an issue with my long irons. I hit my 4i quite well. That is why I was debating getting a 3 Utility iron.  Just making sure I have the most versatile clubs at the top of the bag

[Firebird]

Another option would be to decrease you AOA as it really has an effect on launch angle. I used to and sometimes still do have a steep AOA which used to mean that my miss was a pull draw and my launch angle on my 10.5* Driver was 4-5* - not great. When I got my new set of clubs it came with a 18* hybrid and it took some getting used to. I used to only hit my driver every now and then because I found I was hitting my 3 wood almost as far and more consistently.

Nowadays I still hit down on my irons but know where near as bad. As far as Woods, long irons and hybrids I now sweep them or hit slightly up. Still not 100% yet but slowly getting there.

During lockdown I sent my V1 swing videos to my old golf pro and asked him to review and make suggestions. He is in a aged care home and we thought it might give him something to do. He came back to me after a week and over Facetime pointed out that I was starting my swing from the top with my arms instead of from the bottom - my legs. Hence the steep AOA and out to in swing.

He told me of a drill that I remembered him having me do 20+ years. I know this might sound strange but give it a try.

Take a 5-6 iron and tie a short length of strong string around the shaft, then attach to something solid so the club head is at the same height it would be at the top of your back swing. I use the clothes line. Now set yourself up so that you are holding the club like you would be at the top of your back swing. It helps the first time you do this if you have a second person to help. When you have the club in position you will find that if you gently try to start your swing with your arms the club will not move. Makes sense it is tied to something. Now instead try moving your lower body and you will find you can move your legs and hips back to parallel without your shoulders and arms moving. 

I spent 3 months of lockdown doing this 10-12 times 2-3 times a week, then doing that same thing with the club not connected and making a full swing from the top and over the last few months I have seen a huge improvement - yesterday for example I had my best round in many years, 48 Stableford Points, a Gross 79/Net 60.

As with all training it is all about muscle memory and getting the feeling and this drill for me works.  

[Vegan_Golfer_PNW]

36 minutes ago, Firebird said:

Another option would be to decrease you AOA as it really has an effect on launch angle. I used to and sometimes still do have a steep AOA which used to mean that my miss was a pull draw and my launch angle on my 10.5* Driver was 4-5* - not great. When I got my new set of clubs it came with a 18* hybrid and it took some getting used to. I used to only hit my driver every now and then because I found I was hitting my 3 wood almost as far and more consistently.

Nowadays I still hit down on my irons but know where near as bad. As far as Woods, long irons and hybrids I now sweep them or hit slightly up. Still not 100% yet but slowly getting there.

During lockdown I sent my V1 swing videos to my old golf pro and asked him to review and make suggestions. He is in a aged care home and we thought it might give him something to do. He came back to me after a week and over Facetime pointed out that I was starting my swing from the top with my arms instead of from the bottom - my legs. Hence the steep AOA and out to in swing.

He told me of a drill that I remembered him having me do 20+ years. I know this might sound strange but give it a try.

Take a 5-6 iron and tie a short length of strong string around the shaft, then attach to something solid so the club head is at the same height it would be at the top of your back swing. I use the clothes line. Now set yourself up so that you are holding the club like you would be at the top of your back swing. It helps the first time you do this if you have a second person to help. When you have the club in position you will find that if you gently try to start your swing with your arms the club will not move. Makes sense it is tied to something. Now instead try moving your lower body and you will find you can move your legs and hips back to parallel without your shoulders and arms moving. 

I spent 3 months of lockdown doing this 10-12 times 2-3 times a week, then doing that same thing with the club not connected and making a full swing from the top and over the last few months I have seen a huge improvement - yesterday for example I had my best round in many years, 48 Stableford Points, a Gross 79/Net 60.

As with all training it is all about muscle memory and getting the feeling and this drill for me works.  

I am trying to visualize. Do you have an image or video of your setup?

[BNewton51]

On 12/7/2020 at 6:06 PM, rbsiedsc said:

Been pondering this a lot lately that maybe my steep AOA is causing me problem with Woods and Hybrids and if putting in Utility irons is the way to go. Maybe it is just that I don't practice those clubs enough to get in a groove with them. I utilize a 17* DI due to my steep AOA and have become consistent with it from the tee. I am now debating a Utility 3I to have something a little longer from the fairway than my 4I. That way I can keep a steeper swing with 85% of my clubs. Does anyone else have a bag of no woods and hybrids?

Obviously, clubs themselves are a key component of our game. I think by default that we are all here on MGS we all get it. 

However, I'm a strong believer that the best thing to invest in is improving our swing.  My first stop would be setting up a couple sessions with a trusted pro and working on your AOA.  Couple tweaks may actually provide you the results you're looking for at the same or a little less of a cost than adding a new club.  (Gesh I never thought I'd actually say don't just go buy something... Heaven help me) 

Being steep isn't necessarily the worst thing.  Thousands of scratch golfers have steep swings but still persist playing the same clubs.  Their key is learning on how to manage their swings and make them work with some slight modifications to both the swing and probably lie angles.  

Just my $.02.  I suffered from a steep'ish / flying elbow issue for a while and am now strongly from the inside with a much shallower path.  BUT that took me a couple years to work through swing refinements and a LOT of patience by my Pro and myself. 

[Firebird]

6 hours ago, rbsiedsc said:

I am trying to visualize. Do you have an image or video of your setup?

Will try to make a video but will have to wait till the new year.

 

[Micah T]

I’m a steep swinger myself: I think those of us who are naturally gravitate towards irons as that is our strength. The best woods player I know is my wife: she’s a sweeper of the golf ball and delivers the driver on the upswing and really launches them, and dead straight to boot. Me on the other hand, I’ve gone thru more heads and shafts looking for my unicorn than I care to mention. But I can hit my 7 iron 200 yards in the air. Golf’s funny like that: people watch me swing my irons and assume I’m scratch, then they watch me hit a driver into Narnia and wonder how long I’ve been playing...


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[Vegan_Golfer_PNW]

1 minute ago, Micah T said:

I’m a steep swinger myself: I think those of us who are naturally gravitate towards irons as that is our strength. The best woods player I know is my wife: she’s a sweeper of the golf ball and delivers the driver on the upswing and really launches them, and dead straight to boot. Me on the other hand, I’ve gone thru more heads and shafts looking for my unicorn than I care to mention. But I can hit my 7 iron 200 yards in the air. Golf’s funny like that: people watch me swing my irons and assume I’m scratch, then they watch me hit a driver into Narnia and wonder how long I’ve been playing...


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HAHA. I couldn't agree with you more. While my distance on irons isn't the same, i hit them way better than the top of bag clubs (except the DI, but I need to get my SS higher to use it better). The SIM DHY and UDI is intriguing for me as well (along with the Super Hybrid, although I sill may struggle with that), but the Sub70 UI is definitely in my price point. I may need to go for a top of the bag fitting when my fitter returns in March/April.

[MNUte]

14 hours ago, Micah T said:

I’m a steep swinger myself: I think those of us who are naturally gravitate towards irons as that is our strength. The best woods player I know is my wife: she’s a sweeper of the golf ball and delivers the driver on the upswing and really launches them, and dead straight to boot. Me on the other hand, I’ve gone thru more heads and shafts looking for my unicorn than I care to mention. But I can hit my 7 iron 200 yards in the air. Golf’s funny like that: people watch me swing my irons and assume I’m scratch, then they watch me hit a driver into Narnia and wonder how long I’ve been playing...


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This is me as well! There's just a mental disconnect where my natural swing makes me far more comfortable with irons. One of my playing partners a few weeks ago even said that it looks like two different people swinging in terms of tempo and technique....along with quacking consistently when I duck hook my tee shot into Neverland.

Edited December 11, 2020 by MNUte
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[LeftyMatt89]

3 minutes ago, MNUte said:

This is me as well! There's just a mental disconnect where my natural swing makes me far more comfortable with irons. One of my playing partners a few weeks ago even said that it looks like two different people swinging in terms of tempo and technique....along with whacking consistently when I duck hook my tee shot into Neverland.

I’ve had the same thing said to me on some off swings, my regular playing partners will be like what the heck was that? What are you thinking about?